DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 22nd, 2010 at 6:41:04 AM permalink
Before I send the following letter to ShuffleMaster, Harrah's and ShowBoat, I thougt I'd present it here. I'd like opinions of the problem I had, whether I am making a big deal out of nothing, or anything else that on your mind.

Although I detail the betting system I planned to use, please do not comment upon that here. As you'll see, the betting system is important when discussing my problems, but the actual merits of the system are irrelevant to the problems I had. If you want to discuss it's merits, I started a thread for that:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/1549-my-roulette-system/


EDIT: I have posted a second draft of this letter, here:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/1548-bad-rapidroulette-experience/#post11563


Here's the first draft:
Quote:

I had a bad experience playing RapidRoulette at ShowBoat in Atlantic City on 4/17, and felt all parties should know about it.


The day before my trip, I called the offices of ShuffleMaster to ask if RapidCraps was installed anywhere in A.C. I have high hopes that because of the limited dealer involvement, that RapidCraps will use a smaller betting unit, making fractional bets possible.

Although I look forward to my next Las Vegas trip so I can try it at Bill's, I fear that my experience with RapidRoulette will be duplicated on RapidCraps.



Please note that this is not about the concept, but about my experience with what I believe might be a faulty terminal, as well as inattentive dealers.


I had played RapidRoulette in ShowBoat this past February and had a much better experience, even though I ended up losing on that session.


My betting strategy is simple. I bet the inside minimum on each of the 5 most recent numbers hit, as well as the outside minimum on the most recent and least recent dozens hit.

Doing this means I set up five inside bets at 50¢ each and two dozens bets at $2.50 each. I then move, at most, one inside and one outside bet after each spin.

Setting it up was relatively easy and painless. Moving bets was not.


The terminal interface design should make it simple. Just hit the button to repeat all the bets, then move two of them.

It seems that I should be able to do that in the time provided.


The problems I encountered were multiple and at times compounded to make it a thouroughly frustrating experience.


First, the dealers were inattentive. There were long gaps between the result of a spin being shown and the betting opening. I have no solution other than talking to the staff about it.


When the betting did open, there is no strong visual clue. Oh, sure, the marker showing the prior result goes away, and there is an audible announcement. But casinos are noisy environments and the audible cannot always be heard. Often precious seconds were lost without realizing the betting was open.


To solve this problem, I suggest three solutions:
1 - Dim the colors or make it black & white when the betting is closed.
2 - Occupy a large area of the screen with a live shot of the wheel or animated shot of the wheel and final ball position, as is displated on the large display showing prior results. This shot should move out of the way of the winning position with it's marker, but remain large and on the screen until betting opens.
3 - Dim the colors AND show the live video.
That video shot disappearing and/or the colors getting brighter, would be an adequate clue that betting has opened.


The other problem I had was moving the bets.


I would touch a bet, hold it, slide it to the new position, then let go. More often than not, it did NOT drop where intended, but on a split line bordering the intended position and a neighbor. I even went to the point of pausing at the intended position before releasing it. Still, more often than not, it moved when I let go.

To solve this problem, I suggest three solutions:
1 - Clean and/or calibrate the touch screen more often (assuming that's the problem).
2 - Add a trackball and six buttons next to the screen. The six buttons are used to indicate one of the five standard betting valuse, plus an erase button. Include a small LED or LCD display to indicate the value of the buttons, so they can be changed when the table limits change.
3 - Provide an optional mouse or trackball.

This last solution is based upon an assumption. I would not be surprised to learn that there's a PC inside the console for each terminal. If so, then a USB mouse or trackball can probably be added immediately, without modifications to the software.



As the top poster at Michael Shackleford's "Wizard Of Vegas" discussion board (www.wizardofvegas.com), I've posted a copy of this letter, detailing of my experience. I'd like your permission to post your reply. If you check out the message board, my user name is 'DJTeddyBear'. The thread discussing this problem is located at ___.

It's funny. In other posts, I lamented the fact that the Wiz and JB aren't listed in the 'Top Posters', so I'm the top poster, ie I need a life.

Now, I'm using that to my advantage to tout my status. LOL!
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
JB
Administrator
JB
  • Threads: 334
  • Posts: 2089
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
April 22nd, 2010 at 7:03:44 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

In other posts, I lamented the fact that the Wiz and JB aren't listed in the 'Top Posters', so I'm the top poster, ie I need a life.


I made the forum disregard the Wizard and I when showing the top 5 contributors. Before I added that restriction, we occupied the top two positions, which I didn't feel was fair to the community, and the Wizard agreed.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
April 22nd, 2010 at 8:45:32 AM permalink
If this has not been sent yet you might want to start right off with an indication that its a technical problem with their equipment.

I think its a common programming technique to separate the refresh rate for a monitor from the data displayed on it. I remember one situation wherein x-ray dosage was determined not by what was on the screen when the nurse hit the Return button, but what had most recently been sent as being on the screen.

A local "beep" might be annoying but what you seem to want is a video equivalent of "no more bets" being intoned by the dealer and a video equivalent of "okay folks, place your bets now".

The other item seems to be that the "drag and drop" feature seems to "drop" in the wrong spot. This is probably due to drop being determined by a recent MouseOver signal rather than an updated one. Try not pausing prior to dropping the bet and see if things get better.

The problem really lies with the companies who listen to the casinos instead of the gamblers because they think of the casinos as their customers for the machines!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 22nd, 2010 at 10:43:19 AM permalink
JB -

Yeah, I knew that. I just thought that it's ironic that I once commented that being #1 means I need to get a life (which MAY be true), and that I am now invoking my #1 status in a self-(what's the word?) manner.




Flea, et al -

No, this has NOT been sent yet. Probably won't go out for a week or so. Your point about specifying the technical problem up front is well taken.


Regarding who listens to who... While we as low-rollers tend to think that the big corporations don't care about us, it's just not true. Oh, sure, if we complain that we think the comp system isn't equitable, we'll probably get nowhere. But a technical problem about a machine? Hell, that's their bread and butter.

I think a smart casino would listen to anyone who has a valid complaint, particularly if the results lead towards a better gaming experience for the patron. Similarly, a company would probably look at the complaint, and, if the solution isn't costly, be pro-active and not wait for a casino to say something. Or a combination. That's why I'm sending it to everybody.


Yes, I'm looking for a video equivalent of "Place your bets". One that is more obvious than the one currently employed.


As far as the drag and drop... I tried a variety of things including just a drag and drop, drag and pause, drag and wiggle to make sure it doesn't move. It ALWAYS seemed good, but more often than not, when I lifted my finger, it shifted! And it was difficult to move it the few hairs off that line. Sometimes new bets appeared!


Thanks for the comments and making me think. I'll definately be adding stuff to the letter before it goes out.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
scotty81
scotty81
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 185
Joined: Feb 4, 2010
April 22nd, 2010 at 11:05:19 AM permalink
Most of the RR machines in Vegas (at least, the ones I have played) have an audio "Place your bets, please" when betting is opened, and then have a loud sound (kind of like a double honk of a truck horn) when the betting has 10 seconds left to go. This is what signals the dealer that they should spin the ball. The units then have an audio "No more bets, please" when betting is ended. There is also a visual progress bar that starts out green when betting starts, turning red when there is 10 seconds left to go.

I've also had the issue with moving chips. Here is what I recommend: For the inside bet, you will be moving only one chip every spin (if I understand your system correctly). What you can do is just drag it completely off the layout, and then click on the number that replaces it.

Your letter may make you feel better, but probably has little chance of affecting any change.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 22nd, 2010 at 11:17:12 AM permalink
Scotty -

Thanks for confirming that I'm not the only one who has had problems. Drag it off the layout? I'll have to try that if I ocntinue to have problems.

I know about the green/red status bar. But when dealers are farting around and your mind starts to wander, wondering what the delay is, you can easily miss precious seconds.

Yeah, I know what the audible alerts are. But I tend to hear them clearly when I'm NOT playing, not so much when I'm seated.

I also know the letter may go directly in the circular file, but I hope not.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
scotty81
scotty81
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 185
Joined: Feb 4, 2010
April 22nd, 2010 at 2:29:54 PM permalink
I wouldn't be too hard on the dealers. I have it on good authority that RR is a special place in Hell created for dealers who are in the doghouse with management.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
April 22nd, 2010 at 2:54:39 PM permalink
out of curiosity, is there a tip feature on these machines? like a way you can place a bet for a dealer?
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 22nd, 2010 at 3:41:59 PM permalink
Don't be hard on the dealers? OK.

I really don't have a problem with the inattentive dealers. We all have bad days, as well as momentary distractions. My real problem was not with them, per se, but that when they finally opened betting, on the terminal, the change was so subtle that it was unnoticed until several seconds were lost.




Tips? There IS a button for tips, but I believe that's just for a direct tip, not a dealer bet.

That's actually something I'm interested in when I play RapidCraps. I frequently put down two-ways and dealer PL bets with odds, when I'm shooting. I wonder how easy it is with RapidCraps
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
boymimbo
boymimbo
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
April 22nd, 2010 at 4:52:17 PM permalink
DJ, as the number two poster, I can only acknowledge that life at work is very painfully slow so I've got time on my hands.

I read your letter, and I would cut out most of it, except to make the complaint about the technical equipment, which is something they can do something about. This is a software and/or hardware problem, not a dealer problem or a roulette problem, and if you want it addressed, state what you think the problem is, why it is a problem, and possible solutions to the problem, as well as the improvements to the overall gaming experience (which is a win to them) if they invest in solving the problem to satisfaction. Otherwise your letter will go into a pile.

I played RapidCraps at Bills and didn't have many problems with the software. The game isn't nearly as well established as RapidRoulette and they had a person going around the table helping people with bets. It was clear to me when to bet, when bets were closed and open, and pretty much how to bet. There were some issues with the software as noted in the RapidCraps forum where I reviewed the game, and I didn't think the Strip odds (7 for 1 / 9 for 1 for hardways, 15 for 1, 30 for 1 on the horn) were particularly fair. The dealer was good enough to know when all the bets were in though. It is I think still a pilot for Shufflemaster as the pit gave a couple of people a survey to fill out after cashing out.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Keyser
Keyser
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 2106
Joined: Apr 16, 2010
April 22nd, 2010 at 5:54:09 PM permalink
"I wouldn't be too hard on the dealers. I have it on good authority that RR is a special place in Hell created for dealers who are in the doghouse with management."-Scotty81



No, that special place in Hell that was created for the dealers is Laughlin Nevada. :)
cclub79
cclub79
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 1147
Joined: Dec 16, 2009
April 22nd, 2010 at 10:10:21 PM permalink
I found that dragging the chip off the felt was much easier than trying to move it, and I agree that the letter could be edited. But your concerns about the dealers and the not ideal screen on RapidRoulette is why I said RapidCraps might actually be slower than real craps at certain times...
Keyser
Keyser
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 2106
Joined: Apr 16, 2010
April 22nd, 2010 at 11:10:10 PM permalink
In the future, ask to have your screen cleaned. Also use the screen enlarge button.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
April 23rd, 2010 at 3:03:04 AM permalink
Quote: Keyser

"RR is a special place in Hell for dealers who are in the doghouse with management."
No, that special place in Hell was created for the dealers is Laughlin Nevada.


Perhaps so. It was in Laughlin that I had my Monster Roll on which I had but one pass line bet without odds! Dealer's comment to crew: He could have really hurt us if he had known what he was doing!

As for Rapid Roulette I understand that the dealers are not thrilled with it because although there is a tip button on the screen, it seems its rarely utilized whereas with a human dealer there is a much greater potential to actually get a tip.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 23rd, 2010 at 6:26:23 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

DJ, as the number two poster, I can only acknowledge that life at work is very painfully slow so I've got time on my hands.

Thanks. :D


Quote: boymimbo

I read your letter, and I would cut out most of it, except to make the complaint about the technical equipment, which is something they can do something about. This is a software and/or hardware problem, not a dealer problem or a roulette problem, and if you want it addressed, state what you think the problem is, why it is a problem, and possible solutions to the problem, as well as the improvements to the overall gaming experience (which is a win to them) if they invest in solving the problem to satisfaction.

I am revising it somewhat, shortening it a little, changing the order of things and down-playing the dealer inattentiveness. I DO realize that, from a dealer's perspective, it can be boring, and when you're in a boring job, you mind can wander. I know from my experience as a Bingo caller.

I'm leaving it in, only because it's important to illustrate why a more visually obvious "place your bets" is needed.



Expect me to post my second version a little later today.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
April 23rd, 2010 at 10:03:48 AM permalink
OK. Here's the revised version. Those who suggested I shorten it will be happy to note that I went from 726 words to 681. I made a bunch of other changes too.

I'd still love to hear comments. I'll probably not mail it until Monday.
Quote:

I had a bad experience playing RapidRoulette at ShowBoat Atlantic City on 4/17, and felt all parties should know about it.

Please note that this is not about winning or losing, but with what I believe are technical problems in the terminal itself. In discussions with other players, it is obvious that I am not alone with the problems I encountered.

For the record, this was not my first experience with RapidRoulette. I first played it several years ago at the Flamingo Las Vegas, and most recently this past February at ShowBoat Atlantic City. I did not have problems in any of my prior sessions.



My Roulette strategy is simple. I set up about 7 bets of differing sizes. After each spin, I repeat 5 of them, and change the other 2.

Setting up the 7 bets was relatively easy and painless. Moving the 2 that needed to be changed after each spin proved to be a challenge.



The player interface design makes it simple - when it's working properly. Just hit the button to repeat all the bets, then move two of them.

I couldn't do it.

I would touch a bet, hold it, slide it to the new position, then let go. More often than not, it did NOT drop where intended, but on a split line bordering the intended position and a neighbor. I even went to the point of pausing at the intended position before releasing it. Still, more often than not, it moved when I let go.

To solve this problem, I suggest three solutions:
1 - Clean and/or calibrate the touch screen more often (assuming that's the problem).
2 - Add a trackball and six buttons next to the screen. The six buttons are used to select the five standard betting values, plus an erase button.
3 - Provide a standard mouse or trackball on request.

This last solution is based upon an assumption. I would not be surprised to learn that there's a PC inside the console for each terminal. If so, then mouse or trackball can probably be added immediately, without modifications to the software.



Additionally, the dealers were inattentive at times. I understand that distractions can occur and don't blame the dealers for the delays.

But when the betting finally opened, there is no obvious clue. Oh, sure, the small marker on the prior result goes away, but that's not always noticed. There is also an audible announcement, but casinos are noisy environments and the audible cannot always be heard. Often precious seconds were lost without realizing the betting was open.

To solve this problem, I suggest these solutions:
1 - Dim the colors, or make it black & white when the betting is closed.
2 - Occupy a large area of the screen with a live shot of the wheel or animated shot of the wheel and final ball position, as is displayed on the large display showing prior results. This shot should move out of the way of the winning position with it's marker, but remain large and on the screen until betting opens.

The video shot disappearing, along with the colors getting brighter, would be an adequate clue that betting has opened.



For the record, the day before my trip, I called the offices of ShuffleMaster to ask if RapidCraps was installed anywhere in A.C. I have high hopes that because of the limited dealer involvement, that RapidCraps will use small betting units, making fractional bets possible.

Although I look forward to my next Las Vegas trip so I can try it at Bill's, I fear that my experience with RapidRoulette will be duplicated on RapidCraps.



As the top poster at Michael Shackleford's "Wizard Of Vegas" discussion board (www.wizardofvegas.com), I've posted a copy of this letter, detailing of my experience. I'd like your permission to post your reply. If you check out the discussion board, my user name is 'DJTeddyBear'. The thread discussing this problem is located at ___.

One of the responses in that discussion was to make the screen bigger. I did not realize that was possible.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Croupier
Croupier
  • Threads: 58
  • Posts: 1258
Joined: Nov 15, 2009
December 14th, 2010 at 8:00:18 AM permalink
Didi you ever mail this, and if so did you ge a reply?
[This space is intentionally left blank]
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
December 14th, 2010 at 9:58:51 AM permalink
I totally forgot about this.

No. I didn't mail it.

I figured two things:

1 - They monitor this board and have read it themselves

2 - As I move to try to sell a product to casinos and distributors, and ShuffleMaster is one of the distributors that might be interested, I didn't want to ruffle any feathers. Sure, it might make sense to help them fix a problem, but the may view it as complaining.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
  • Jump to: