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Nareed
Nareed
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March 1st, 2010 at 7:38:45 AM permalink
I apologize for the lack of a link. I saw a piece yesterday on a semi-electronic version of craps, called Rapid Craps, which debuted at Bill's Gambling Hall. You sit (yes, sit) in front of a monitor with a craps layout and place your bets on it. A player rolls the dice on the craps table, the dealer enters the result on the system and the pays are automated. I've seen something very much like this called Rapid Roulette, so I'm assuming the craps version also ahs a slot for the player's club card in it. There's just one dealer, who handles the stick and enters the dice roll. No boxman and no dealers on the sides; no rails for chips, either. When you leave the table, the dealer pays you off in chips (why chips and not a slot-type ticket, I've no idea; unless it's because chips don't expire).

I've played very little craps, but I must say I do like the idea of this new-fangled type of craps. I wouldn't mind sitting, and, honestly, I trust computers to make fewer mistakes on paying off bets than human dealers would. I'd bet the casinos will love it. They get to employ three less dealers per table, and may wind up with a faster game. Sitting players may also play longer.

Ultimately it depends on whether players will like it. I think they may. With an electronic system it's easier to keep new players from getting into the game mid-roll, and to prevent them from making late bets. And without chips present on the table, there's no chance of hitting someone else's stack, or hands reaching in for a late bet. On the downside you'll interact less with the dealers and the other players (it's harder to high-five when you're both seating).

We'll see. I would think the computerized bets are perfect for craps, given the variety and complexity of bets available. But then that's partly true also of roulette and Rapid Roulette, while widespread, hardly is the only game in town.

One thing about electronic table games I've noticed is that it's best to keep a human dealer. Video dealers, as in some e-BJ machines, are phonier than a three-dollar bill, and people amy resent not being able to answer someone who talks to them.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
DJTeddyBear
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March 1st, 2010 at 9:15:51 AM permalink
If I'm reading this right, you didn't see the game yourself, but read about it?

I'd like to hear from someone who has actually played it. OR at least seen it.

I doubt it will be embraced by gamblers - experienced OR novices.

For example, I enjoy playing the craps game on the Wiz's main site, but I hate some of the features it lacks. I.E. I can't just throw in $44 and say "$44 In" the way I can at a live table. Of course, for a free, just for fun game, I don't expect the Wiz to have put all the extra programming time into it. I will not only expect it, but demand it of a casino's version.

Also, I'd need to see the conditions of the dice throw. With a machine, the dealer probably has to make sure everyone is done betting and then hit the bet lockout button as he's passing the dice to prevent late bets. That will actually slow the game down.

And, personally, I like to watch the dice. I tend to try to get a spot next to the stickman so I can more easily see them when someone on my side of the stick is throwing.

Also, I don't buy into the "hit the stack and seven out" superstitions. Quite the contrary. I actually tend to aim for stacks. (Call me a dick if you want)

Last, I encourage novice players to ask me questions. How will a novice be able to ask another player, OR a dealer, question?


Regarding Rapid Roulette: I think it's popular because people generally have a hard time reaching all areas of the betting field, so this makes betting easier. Plus, people generally make all their bets in the same unit.

Although the seats are a little too far apart to encourage discussions or questions, it could be accomplished while a ball is spinning.

Also, Roulette is far simpler. Quite easy for a novice to step up to the Rapid Roulette console, sit down, and play.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
RonC
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March 1st, 2010 at 11:39:15 AM permalink
Here is a link to some info about Rapid Craps...

http://www.shufflemaster.com/assets/pdf/product_sheets/Rapid_Craps.pdf
RonC
RonC
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March 1st, 2010 at 11:45:43 AM permalink
I have commented on this game on another forum. It was a thread written by someone who had actually played the game.

I can see certain benefits in it...but I don't want it to become much more than a novelty. I would really hate to see it replace any craps tables. If I want to be play craps without interaction and on a TV screen, I can play the Wizard's version...

The posts on the other forum seemed to run in favor of this format. I was a little surprised by that--I kind of figured folks would want to play the traditional game. It will be interesting to see how the opinions look after more have seen this in live play.

I don't think I'd like Rapid Roulette, either. Heck, if I can't reach the number, the dealer can. If he can't place a number when I ask him, he isn't getting a tip anyway!!

I don't want to see table games become more like slots...or see dealers disappear...
Nareed
Nareed
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March 1st, 2010 at 12:08:33 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

If I'm reading this right, you didn't see the game yourself, but read about it?



Right. I read about it yesterday at home. I'll post a link this evening.

I do plan to see and maybe play the game next Vegas trip this April (if things continue to go well).

I don't think the dice seven out if they hit a stack or a hand, either. It's just one more random factor, and any shot that hits something might have had the same end result had it not hit the obstacle. But it is annoying.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
jeremykay
jeremykay
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March 1st, 2010 at 2:38:57 PM permalink
I plan to check it out in April myself, but I don't anticipate prefering it over a live table game. I tried rapid roulette when it first arrived, but still prefer the regular tables.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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March 1st, 2010 at 2:48:57 PM permalink
Don't get me wrong. I did not intend to imply that RapidCraps is a bad thing.

I simply have my doubts.

Although, after seeing ShuffleMaster's PDF, it's obvious that talking to your neighbor won't be the problem that it is with RapidRoulette. RR has much bigger consoles than RC.


On the flip side, I was mostly optimistic about RR in my post above.

The funny thing is, after playing it on three occasions, I don't like it. I'll be playing regular Roulette in the future. Note: I don't play Roulette much. Biggest reason I didn't like RR? I couldn't easily keep my winnings separate from my starting bankroll.



Bottom line: I WILL be trying out RR when I see it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
boymimbo
boymimbo
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March 1st, 2010 at 5:36:54 PM permalink
I'll check it out this weekend and report back.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
NicksGamingStuff
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March 1st, 2010 at 5:46:13 PM permalink
I saw this today at bills it looked ok but had 2 people playing compared to regular craps that had a full table
Nareed
Nareed
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March 1st, 2010 at 6:48:59 PM permalink
Here's the link:

http://www.dicesetter.com/Tid%20Bits/TidBit1.htm
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
crapsbaseballguy
crapsbaseballguy
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March 1st, 2010 at 6:54:21 PM permalink
maybe my game has a chance!
http://www.crapsbaseball.com/ Full launch soon!
cclub79
cclub79
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March 1st, 2010 at 8:30:27 PM permalink
I'd say it might be a good idea if they can use it to get around "No table games" laws in certain states, but it looks way too much like just playing online for me, even though someone is rolling the dice. Plus, do you stand up when it's your roll? Stay seated?
DJTeddyBear
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March 2nd, 2010 at 5:15:52 AM permalink
Consider the source of the info in that link: DiceSetter.com

Everything they are saying would be from the point of view of a control dice shooter (or wannabe). Stats about the dimentions, and center of table position of the puck. All important info for a control shooter.

Certainly, if you were forced to remain seated to throw, it would have been mentioned. It's not. So obviously, the chairs move and you can stand to throw.

In fact, one of the most prominent features mentioned was a clear landing area - that's a dice setter's wet dream!


I'm particularly intrigued by the remark: "Your Bankroll Credit to the penny." Does that mean a betting unit on the 6/8 could be as low as 6「? As some of you that have been paying attention know, I'm always on the lookout for a Bird game. This is even better!



There was only one comment that confused and concerned me:
Live dice (red clear unbalanced dice on a Saturday night, of course).

"Unbalanced" ?

And what does "Saturday night" have to do with it?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
cclub79
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March 2nd, 2010 at 5:38:51 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


I'm particularly intrigued by the remark: "Your Bankroll Credit to the penny." Does that mean a betting unit on the 6/8 could be as low as 6「?



Highly doubtful. I've noticed on Rapid Roulette that you can take a slot ticket and put it into the machine instead of cash, so if there's an odd number on it ($53.17), it will show you that as your balance. Also, perhaps they will allow uneven bets that would cause payouts that don't create a whole dollar value, probably rounding down if necessary. Again, sounds a lot like an internet craps casino, except for the real dice. Minimums would probably be $5, though it shouldn't be hard to find out what the mins are at the place that this is already in operation. I'd assume the units are either $1 or 50c.

edit....I noticed this:

- $3 dollar table that pays truer odds on Place Bets than most casinos -- a $3.00 Place Bet on the 8 will credit your account $3.50.

So 3 bucks will get you the 6 or 8.
DJTeddyBear
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March 2nd, 2010 at 5:42:48 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I doubt it will be embraced by gamblers - experienced OR novices.

Considering that DiceSetter.com seems to be giving it good reviews, I take back that comment.



Quote: DJTeddyBear

For example, I enjoy playing the craps game on the Wiz's main site, but I hate some of the features it lacks. I.E. I can't just throw in $44 and say "$44 In" the way I can at a live table. Of course, for a free, just for fun game, I don't expect the Wiz to have put all the extra programming time into it. I will not only expect it, but demand it of a casino's version.

Apparently, they thought of that:
Quick Bet Buttons such as Down, Across, Outside, Inside, Cash Out , Undo, Off
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Aussie
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March 2nd, 2010 at 5:46:04 AM permalink
I'm not a fan of these "rapid" games but obviously there are plenty of people who like them. Crown Casino in Australia has rapid roulette, rapid baccarat, rapid sic Bo and rapid big wheel. No rapid craps but there isn't the demad for craps I Australia anyway to the point that only a couple of casinos even have the live game.
DetroitCobra
DetroitCobra
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March 2nd, 2010 at 5:46:52 AM permalink
Interesting concept, but I don't think I'd even want to play it.

IMO, the beauty and fun in craps comes from the live interaction with your fellow gamblers and the game itself. I enjoy tossing the chips down, talking to the dealers, and watching the dice thrown down the table, landing right in front of me. I just don't see how it could be fun punching your bets in on a computer.

Plus, I like the fact that it takes a little while between rolls at a crowded table. I have no need to be rushed and gamble as fast as possible.

A computer based game just takes the craps out of craps.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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March 2nd, 2010 at 5:47:50 AM permalink
Quote: cclub79

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'm particularly intrigued by the remark: "Your Bankroll Credit to the penny." Does that mean a betting unit on the 6/8 could be as low as 6「?

Highly doubtful...

Actually, I admit I wouldn't expect to see 6「 units. Nor would I mind a $5 table minimum.

What I'd like is to be able to press my 6/8 in less than $6 units. Preferable, units as low as 30「, but wouldn't mind 60「. I'd object if the unit were any higher than $1.50.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
cclub79
cclub79
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March 2nd, 2010 at 6:00:08 AM permalink
Quote: DetroitCobra


Plus, I like the fact that it takes a little while between rolls at a crowded table. I have no need to be rushed and gamble as fast as possible.



Even at a crowded table, I feel like this game would be slower than a typical table with certain conditions. If it's like Rapid Roulette, it's going to wait 30 seconds for everyone to bet before the dice are given out, then they will be pushed to the shooter who will take their time, then throw the dice. Then the dice will be entered into the computer by the dealer, then the payouts will automatically be credited, that usually takes a few seconds. My favorite part of craps is when the rhythm gets going and the pays are quick and the dice keep moving. Roll a Yo when the point is established, and usually you get the dice back in 5 seconds. Roll a naked number, same thing. Roll a 7 on the Comeout, same thing. I don't like that there is an almost assured 45 second waiting period between EVERY roll. In my Rapid Roulette experience, the dealer will sometimes talk to someone else in the pit and that can take more time away, while you wait for them to enter the number into the computer. Or the 30 second betting period will end, and they haven't started spinning the wheel.
EnvyBonus
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March 2nd, 2010 at 6:56:50 PM permalink
Quote: cclub79

I'd say it might be a good idea if they can use it to get around "No table games" laws in certain states



They have at least one of these at Harrah's Cherokee, for just this type of reason.
PeteM
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March 4th, 2010 at 7:39:46 PM permalink
I heartily agree with Mr. Cobra! No other game in the casino can match the sizzle and pop of a craps table when the dice are hot. Ten, twelve, fourteen people leaning over the table( including the young lady in the scoop neck sweater) willing the point to hit( except the quiet little guy standing at the hook betting the dark side). Betting with a button? Not being able to watch that stack of red, green,and black wax and wane before my eyes? Bleah!
"Win with a smile, lose with grace."
boymimbo
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March 7th, 2010 at 6:53:57 AM permalink
I had the chance to play RapidCraps last night at Bill's Gambling Saloon (which is on the Northeast corner of the intersection that connects Bally's, Caesar's Palace, and the Bellagio). I took some pictures and a brochure which I'll add when I get back home.

RapidCraps is a ShuffleMaster product. ShuffleMaster also owns RapidRoulette, RapidBaccarat, 3-card Poker, 4-card Poker, and a variety of other table games including the TableMaster. I've got to buy the stock in the company.

The obvious benefits to the casino in RapidCraps is the ability to cut down the staff on the table from 4 to 1 and eliminate all errors in payouts and cheating (through post betting). As well, if the player knows how to use the software, there is the temptation to bet more.

The benefits to the player is that they can see a roll history for the shooter and it keeps a visual display of the player's bet. It also tracks the longest rolls for a shooter and the frequency of numbers hit over time. As well, you can control your bet, and the software tells you what your total bet is. Once you get hang of the software, it is easy to use. The software does have some glitches which I'll go over later. And oh yeah, CHAIRS!

The craps table itself at Bill's was a 14 foot table (it seemed). The table itself was not bouncy (to prevent dice from leaving the table) and the walls in the craps pit were fairly low with the standard pyramids at the end to promote randomness. Because you are sitting, it is difficult to see the results of the dice throw at the other wall. There were either 12 or 14 stations surrounding the craps table. Two posts were at either end which displayed all of the bets at your side of the table, the shooter's history, and the total frequency of each roll which could be reset at any time.

There was one dealer who ran the RapidRoulette computer and another staff person who walked around helping the players.

You buy in by throwing your money on the table. The dealer then loads your money into your station. At Bill's the table minimum was $5 with 3-4-5 odds. The computer did enforce the minimums but the dealer had to tell you how to correct your bet (no error messaging). You select your denomination and press the bet that you want. You then get the options for that bet, such as odds, place, lay, or buy. When the point is hit, a screen comes up giving you the option to place odds. There are "quick buttons" to put the max odds down, to put odds on 1x at a time, or to manually place your odds.

After the point is established, the dealer lets the players put in their bets, which includes all of the standard bets. One issue with center bets (hardways) is that your choices are only to take it down, parlay, or to make the bets "off" (until turned on). If you select the "down" button, it takes down all of your non-contract bets and odds which you have to replace. So, reducing a center bet is not an option, as is the same for place bets. Odds bets on come bets do give you the opportunity to reduce.

The whole process of placing bets takes about 30 seconds, and in that time, I was able to place a six/eight, adjust odds, put on a come bet, and put on hardways (which I normally do not do, I was testing the software).

Once the dice is thrown, it takes about 10 seconds to register the roll and display your winnings (or losings). If the point is hit, it puts all of your place and come bets "off" (with the exception of odds) while leaving your center bets on (you have the opportunity to take off only center bets).

The drawbacks to the game I feel is the obvious lack of comeraderie. There was some there but without chips at the table you had no idea who was betting once and whether your throw was beneficial to other players. Most of all, despite the chairs, if you don't know how to use a computer well, you will not feel comfortable, at all, at this game. The game itself is not the best on the strip, with Strip odds on the horn bets, and 2x on the field of 2 and 12. The game still is slow with many players as it takes time to place bets, but is much much faster on payouts, making crowded tables faster than a "manual" table. There is no reason to lower the game to a $3 game and increase odds to attract more players.

When you leave the table, you select the Cashout option and the game stops while the dealer checks you out and issues you chips which you can use anywhere else in the casino.

Bills placed this table at the head of the casino's table games about 15 yards from the front door. On 8:30 on a Saturday night, there were about 5 active players (including myself). The other craps tables in the casino were very full. For my session itself, I ended up $111 on a $40 buyin, which completely destroys the 244/251 hypothesis on another post.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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March 7th, 2010 at 7:55:15 AM permalink
Thanks for that great report. But a couple questions:


OK. It was a $5 table. But what what the betting unit? For example, if I had $6 on the 6/8, could I press them to $7.50 and get paid $8.75 if they hit? Or even better, press them to $6.60 and get paid $7.70?

I have a strategy where I like to press all my numbers each time, but it only has a good risk/reward ratio if the betting unit is much smaller than the table minimum...


Quote: boymimbo

One issue with center bets (hardways) is that your choices are only to take it down, parlay, or to make the bets "off" (until turned on).

Are you saying that if you win a hard-way bet, it doesn't give you the option to simply take the win and leave the original bet up?


Quote: boymimbo

If the point is hit, it puts all of your place and come bets "off" (with the exception of odds) while leaving your center bets on (you have the opportunity to take off only center bets).

Center bets 'on' is a subject touched upon in another thread.

But what about the odds? Was that right? Odds on come bets remain ON on a new come out roll? Did you mean to say that the odds are off while the flat bet remains on? That makes more sense.


Quote: boymimbo

For my session itself, I ended up $111 on a $40 buyin, which completely destroys the 244/251 hypothesis on another post.

Speaking of other threads, you just had to go there, didn't you? I was gonna congratulate you for the win, but now? (If the new forum software was running, I'd include a Bronx Cheer emoticon!)
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DrEntropy
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March 7th, 2010 at 12:13:41 PM permalink
I wanted to check this new game out so I stopped by Bills Gambling Hall. This was on Friday night, about 9 pm. Bills was hopping, but the Rapid Craps table was not... it was about 1/2 full, and seemed very sedate. The table looks weird because teh betting spaces are not on the felt, so instead that posted a bunch of rules / payouts on the felt. I sat down and after watching a few rolls decided not to play. I just couldn't get into it. I also didn't want to put my drink on the little shelf below the monitors where I couldn't see it. Instead I squeezed into a much more active real craps table!

PS Note that the limits at the Rapid Craps and the real craps were all $5.00.
"Mathematical expectation has nothing to do with results." (Sklansky, Theory of Poker).
Nareed
Nareed
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March 7th, 2010 at 5:29:01 PM permalink
After reading all the comments here, I still think I'll try it out on my next trip.

Sight unseesn here are some thoughts on the matter:

It probably won't attract seasoned craps players, except perhaps for dice setters because of the obstacle-free throwing area.

The rapid craps, on the other hand, may attract novices, especially younger people, because it seems less intimidating than a full craps table. I mean, when I first saw the layout on a craps table, I immediately began to look for the manual to play in that thing! ;)

I have noticed that rapid roulette tables aren't as full as real roulette tables. If that's an indication, then rapid craps will proliferate but never be very popular. That may not amtter, as the costs of running it are surely lower than a real craps table: 1 vs 4 dealers, plus likely less maintenance on the surface since there will be less actiont here. It should also likely be quickly reprogrammed for promotions.

Speaking of promotions, one way to draw people in would be to offer a coupon for matching play only on the rapid craps table.

To sum up: we'll see.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
boymimbo
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March 7th, 2010 at 5:42:19 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Thanks for that great report. But a couple questions:

OK. It was a $5 table. But what what the betting unit? For example, if I had $6 on the 6/8, could I press them to $7.50 and get paid $8.75 if they hit? Or even better, press them to $6.60 and get paid $7.70?



You have to get paid in whole dollars as that's how you're paid out. I am not sure what they do if you put odd odds on a 5 or 9. So you can't bet $8 on a 5. I think the casino should allow it and just round your money down on the payout.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: boymimbo

One issue with center bets (hardways) is that your choices are only to take it down, parlay, or to make the bets "off" (until turned on).

Are you saying that if you win a hard-way bet, it doesn't give you the option to simply take the win and leave the original bet up?



No, it's left up until it's down, including the come out roll.

Quote: DJTeddyBear


Quote: boymimbo

If the point is hit, it puts all of your place and come bets "off" (with the exception of odds) while leaving your center bets on (you have the opportunity to take off only center bets).

Center bets 'on' is a subject touched upon in another thread.

But what about the odds? Was that right? Odds on come bets remain ON on a new come out roll? Did you mean to say that the odds are off while the flat bet remains on? That makes more sense.



Odds on the come out roll are all turned off. I don't know if you can turn it on. Contract bets are always on.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Doc
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March 12th, 2010 at 9:59:06 PM permalink
Quote: EnvyBonus

Quote: cclub79

I'd say it might be a good idea if they can use it to get around "No table games" laws in certain states



They have at least one of these at Harrah's Cherokee, for just this type of reason.



Question: Have you personally seen this at Cherokee or just heard they might have some? Their web site does not mention Rapid Craps but does list two other "electronic" table games. I visited Cherokee once about three years ago and have not returned, because I do not play slots and did not find anything of interest there. I tried their electronic blackjack and did not care for it. If you have actually seen the Rapid Craps there, do you recall what min/max limits they had on the tables?
EnvyBonus
EnvyBonus
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March 13th, 2010 at 8:04:55 AM permalink
Quote: Doc


Question: Have you personally seen this at Cherokee or just heard they might have some? Their web site does not mention Rapid Craps but does list two other "electronic" table games. I visited Cherokee once about three years ago and have not returned, because I do not play slots and did not find anything of interest there. I tried their electronic blackjack and did not care for it. If you have actually seen the Rapid Craps there, do you recall what min/max limits they had on the tables?



I personally have not seen it, but I have a friend who goes there every few months and he told me about it. He last went in early January. He also went around October of last year, but did not see a craps table at that time.

He told me the limits were $2 / $500. I grilled him about the $2 minimum, but he was confident about it. He couldn't remember what the max odds allowed were.
DeMango
DeMango
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March 13th, 2010 at 9:49:10 AM permalink
Obviously it was not a Rapid Craps table, just an electronic game. There are no real tables in NC.
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Doc
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March 13th, 2010 at 9:49:54 AM permalink
Thanks for the info. If friends want to go back to Cherokee, this might give me something to do. I have never tried Rapid Craps.

Edit: Ooops! Posted at the same time as someone else. Guess I need more info. Once in a California tribal casino I saw an electronic craps game (not all that different than the games on the Wizard's sites) and I wasn't willing to put my money in it. If there were actual dice being rolled by a person as in Rapid Craps, that might be worth trying once. I thought earlier speculation was that Rapid Craps might somehow get around the prohibitions. Anyone know about this for certain?

Cherokee does have "table games" as in their blackjack game that has a "dealer", chips, and electronic images of the cards.
EnvyBonus
EnvyBonus
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March 13th, 2010 at 1:54:01 PM permalink
Quote: DeMango

Obviously it was not a Rapid Craps table, just an electronic game. There are no real tables in NC.



DeMango is correct. I checked back with my friend and I had misunderstood him, thinking there were real dice, but it is indeed just an electronic game. Sorry for the bad info.
boymimbo
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March 14th, 2010 at 8:16:51 AM permalink
I would like to see a self-serving video craps game similar to the video roulette game you see today. Make it a .25 machine, minimum bet 5 credits. I would only offer single odds in the back. I think it would do quite well.
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DrEntropy
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March 14th, 2010 at 1:11:31 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I would like to see a self-serving video craps game similar to the video roulette game you see today. Make it a .25 machine, minimum bet 5 credits. I would only offer single odds in the back. I think it would do quite well.



I used to see (and play) a video craps machine many years ago, but have not seen one recently. They must not have been too popular??
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Doc
Doc
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March 14th, 2010 at 2:44:20 PM permalink
Quote: DrEntropy


I used to see (and play) a video craps machine many years ago, but have not seen one recently. They must not have been too popular??



As I noted a few posts earlier, I once saw an electronic craps game at a California casino -- actually, the now-closed, California portion of the double casino straddling the state line outside of Yuma, AZ. I looked at it for a few minutes and couldn't convince myself that watching animated dice on a CRT screen would be anything like actually playing craps. Didn't put a cent into it, which summarizes just how popular it was with me.
Wizard
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Wizard
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March 14th, 2010 at 2:56:39 PM permalink
I just saw the Rapid Craps game at Bill's yesterday. It is pretty much like any craps table, except the players make their bets on individual monitors. A normal sized craps table and dice are used, but most of the felt is devoted to explaining the different bets. Seems like a good idea to me, from the casino's point of view. You only need one dealer at the table, and the pace is probably faster. It wouldn't surprise me if there are lots of them in five years.
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calwatch
calwatch
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March 18th, 2010 at 12:16:33 AM permalink
Quote: Doc


Edit: Ooops! Posted at the same time as someone else. Guess I need more info. Once in a California tribal casino I saw an electronic craps game (not all that different than the games on the Wizard's sites) and I wasn't willing to put my money in it. If there were actual dice being rolled by a person as in Rapid Craps, that might be worth trying once. I thought earlier speculation was that Rapid Craps might somehow get around the prohibitions. Anyone know about this for certain?



The dice are still being rolled and are used to set the number, not draw some other card (as is done at Pala, per the Wizard's discussion - I think I might have seen that at Soboba too). I would argue that if the dice determine the outcome, it is not legal in California.
Nareed
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March 18th, 2010 at 8:16:29 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Seems like a good idea to me, from the casino's point of view. You only need one dealer at the table, and the pace is probably faster. It wouldn't surprise me if there are lots of them in five years.



I've played craps live at a acasino only twice, and that for small amounts and a short time. I didn't quite understand the game then. Even so, the layout and the types of bets struck me as complex enough that it would make more sense to track them electronically. Of course that may just mean I take it for granted all people are as bad as doing simple mental math in their head as I am in mine :)

But what do you think of it in terms of the player? I think there's no game so awful, so complicated, so lousy, so inconvenient, so boring or so disadvantageous that some people won't love it. The question always is whether enough people will like it enough to play it. A rapid craps table takes up a lot of space. If too few poeple play it, then the casino's revenue will go down by sheer waste of space (I assume space in a casino is treated similarly to that at a department store; therefore anything that takes up a lot of floor space is expected to generate revenue commeasurate to the space it takes up).

If people play 6:5 21, Keno and, god help us, every terrible side bet in every game imaginable, then some people will play rapid craps even if it makes a craps' purist stomach do triple summersaults at the mere sight of the table.
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boymimbo
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March 18th, 2010 at 9:37:09 AM permalink
At Bill's they put the Rapid Craps table as a short side of a rectangle connecting all of the table games. It's a natural place for a game like Big Six or Roulette, not a standard table game anyway, so Rapid Craps fits well there.

The game itself is exactly the same as Craps with no bets on the table. The rules that they present are field 2:1 on the 12 and 3-4-5 odds and Strip odds for the horn bets (30 for 1, 15 for 1).

If you understand the game itself, they make it fairly simple to put bets on the table. You simply press the number, hit place, and put the amount you want to bet on the number. For come bets, simply click the come on the electronic layout, and indicate the amount you want to bet. When the number hits, a window comes up asking you whether you want to press the bet, take it down, etcetera, so it's pretty good. See my review above.

In terms of the player, older craps player will not like this, at all, because there is a learning curve to using the computer. Younger players, on the other hand, will adapt to the game. However, it is excellent for payouts. The table seems cold because there is only one dealer. You can't see the bets on the table (they are posted on the electronic board above you) and therefore there is less cheering and booing.

On the other hand, you can get way with some don't bets without being scorned. For dice controllers, with nothing on the table, there are no distractions. And you can sit.
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PWild888
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May 3rd, 2010 at 9:16:10 PM permalink
Being a beginner and normally a slots player, I am interested to know if the focus is on the terminal "just like slots" or on the actual table game. I have been keen to move over to tables as I think they will be more stimulating and I will have a better chance of winning however the tables are daunting for us first timers. This could be a nice transition for me from slots to tables, so am keen to hear from those of you that have played this game? Thanks
pacomartin
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May 3rd, 2010 at 9:31:42 PM permalink
Quote: PWild888

This could be a nice transition for me from slots to tables, so am keen to hear from those of you that have played this game? Thanks



These games are designed to reduce casino payroll expenses, and to minimize dealer errors. They are not designed to make it easier for slot player to transition. In some ways they might be harder to deal with the screen. My suggestion is that you go online and try to learn the protocol and the rules for making a pass line bet and free odds. Just go to a craps table and make just that bet the first time.

When it comes to the dice, the rule is to use one hand only, try not to knock over stacks of chips, and hit the back wall without bouncing the dice out onto the floor.
boymimbo
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May 4th, 2010 at 6:50:36 AM permalink
The terminal in Rapid Craps would be impossible to comprehend if you don't know how to play Craps. So, no, the terminal does not transition anyone from slots to tables. Now, in a game like Roulette, where they have both RapidRoulette and the sit down game where you play 0 or 00 roulette in a slot setting, it's a bit different.
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ruascott
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May 4th, 2010 at 7:28:21 AM permalink
I've never played Rapid Craps - which as I underand is with real dice - but I've played a fully electronic game a couple of times. Each player has his own moniter to place his bets, and then there is a large screen where the dice are "rolled".

It was an unbelievably boring game. It was SOOOO slow between rolls, as all the players had to have time to place all their bets. The minimums were extremely low, I think $1 or maybe even less. Odds I think were 3x4x5x.

After about 30 minutes (probably like 15 rolls) I had to leave as I was going to fall asleep while sitting there. This game made slot machines feel exciting.
ruascott
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May 4th, 2010 at 7:35:05 AM permalink
I'll add, the biggest delay in this game is that there is the same amount of time given regardless of the outcome of the roll. Typically at a real table, on a non-come out roll, if there is no 7-out or a point made, the dice are returned to the shooter very quickly, as there is little betting action going on.

On an electronic game, there is the same delay, what seemed like close to a minute AFTER EVERY ROLL. This is what made it so boring.
pacomartin
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May 4th, 2010 at 8:23:59 AM permalink
Supposedly they get over 100 rolls per hour consistently (which is actually very good for a full table). I suspect that there is a perceived slowness by some people. In a real craps table people throw the dice off the table, sometimes several times on their turn. There are delays as the boxman corrects mistakes made by novice dealers. People set the dice. But as a player you are looking around at the mistakes.

But without all that activity, and just looking at the screen, it can be perceived to be moving much slower. The stats all say that Rapid craps strives for one roll every 35 seconds. Yet the blogger swears it is at least a minute.
DJTeddyBear
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May 4th, 2010 at 9:01:03 AM permalink
Quote: ruascott

I've never played Rapid Craps - which as I underand is with real dice - but I've played a fully electronic game a couple of times. Each player has his own moniter to place his bets, and then there is a large screen where the dice are "rolled".



I get the feeling that people are talking about different things.

As I see it, this thread talks about FIVE DIFFERENT types of craps games:


1 - Traditional Craps with real dice, varying size tables for 14 to 20 players, two dealers, a stickman, and often a boxman.

2 - Tub Craps played at a 'table' almost the size of a bathtub, real dice, with around 7 players, one dealer who is also the stickman.

3 - Rapid Craps, played at a table about the size of a traditional table, using real dice, 12 to 20 players each placing bets thru their own terminal, one dealer who is also the stickman. The table stays free of obstacles, which should make this a control shooter's best friend.

4 - Some other type of craps that I actually never heard of, but is what ruascott is referring to in the item I quoted above. It sounds like it uses virtual dice, and the big difference between it and Craps Slots is the multiple player aspect. (Am I right? What's it called?)

5 - Craps Slots. A single terminal where a gambler plays alone using virtual dice.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
rudeboyoi
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May 4th, 2010 at 9:26:24 AM permalink
the excitement factor in craps is composed of 3 main elements:

1) the dice
2) the checks
3) the social interaction

take away one of those and the game just becomes bland.
DJTeddyBear
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May 4th, 2010 at 10:17:02 AM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

the excitement factor in craps is composed of 3 main elements:
...
2) the checks
...

Yeah, baby! I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I love pressing my 6/8 to $42 or my 5/9 to $35 and having them hit. Why?


There's something sexy about throwing in a white chip and getting two greens in return!
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
dlevinelaw
dlevinelaw
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May 4th, 2010 at 10:35:02 AM permalink
The only time I ever played craps on a tub, there were 2 dealers: one handled the payouts and watched over the bets, the other watched the dice.
ruascott
ruascott
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May 4th, 2010 at 11:32:57 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I get the feeling that people are talking about different things.

As I see it, this thread talks about FIVE DIFFERENT types of craps games:


1 - Traditional Craps with real dice, varying size tables for 14 to 20 players, two dealers, a stickman, and often a boxman.

2 - Tub Craps played at a 'table' almost the size of a bathtub, real dice, with around 7 players, one dealer who is also the stickman.

3 - Rapid Craps, played at a table about the size of a traditional table, using real dice, 12 to 20 players each placing bets thru their own terminal, one dealer who is also the stickman. The table stays free of obstacles, which should make this a control shooter's best friend.

4 - Some other type of craps that I actually never heard of, but is what ruascott is referring to in the item I quoted above. It sounds like it uses virtual dice, and the big difference between it and Craps Slots is the multiple player aspect. (Am I right? What's it called?)

5 - Craps Slots. A single terminal where a gambler plays alone using virtual dice.



Yes, you are correct. This is an entirely electronic craps game...not the Rapid Craps that this thread was started on. We have them in Indiana at the 2 Racinos near Indy that are only approved for slots, but which has been interpreted to be any type of electronic game. They have electronic table games including BJ, Roulette, 3-card poker and most recently craps.

The set up is 10 player stations - 5 on each side of a dual sided big screen LCD. Each player has is one game monitor where you feed in cash and get credits, and place your bets. The shooter rotates around in a circle, and when its your turn you can "shoot" the dice on your personal touch sceen. Its silly, as its obviously just RNG, but it gives the player some tactile interaction with the virtual dice.

You are right, I didn't time it, but whatever it was it was WAAY too slow. Most of the players were just sitting around waiting. There wasn't that much interaction amoung players at all. It also takes up a very large space on the floor, much bigger than a normal craps table would.
ruascott
ruascott
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May 4th, 2010 at 11:39:11 AM permalink
Also, thinking more about it, I think the low rollers may really like the version of electronic craps offered here, as I'm pretty sure the minimum bet is $0.25. That's maybe the only thing that could make it fun...it'd be affordable to cover the entire board if you wanted.

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