Mission146
Mission146
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January 4th, 2022 at 9:17:47 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Does a coach, player or team have an obligation to try to win? If a tie gets you into the playoffs, how could anyone fault them for playing for a tie?
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I think that this conversation would be covered by Rule 17, Section 2, of the NFL Rules:

https://operations.nfl.com/media/5427/2021-nfl-rulebook.pdf

Quote:

ARTICLE 1. COMMISSIONER AUTHORITY. The Commissioner has the sole authority to investigate and take appropriate
disciplinary and/or corrective measures if any club action, non-participant interference, or calamity occurs in an NFL game which
the Commissioner deems so extraordinarily unfair or outside the accepted tactics encountered in professional football that such
action has a major effect on the result of the game.

ARTICLE 2. NO CLUB PROTESTS. The authority and measures provided for in this entire Section 2 do not constitute a protest
machinery for NFL clubs to avail themselves of in the event a dispute arises over the result of a game. The investigation called
for in this Section 2 will be conducted solely on the Commissioner’s initiative to review an act or occurrence that the
Commissioner deems so extraordinary or unfair that the result of the game in question would be inequitable to one of the
participating teams. The Commissioner will not apply authority in cases of complaints by clubs concerning judgmental errors or
routine errors of omission by game officials. Games involving such complaints will continue to stand as completed.

ARTICLE 3. PENALTIES FOR UNFAIR ACTS. The Commissioner’s powers under this Section 2 include the imposition of
monetary fines and draft-choice forfeitures, suspension of persons involved in unfair acts, and, if appropriate, the reversal of a
game’s result or the rescheduling of a game, either from the beginning or from the point at which the extraordinary act occurred.
In the event of rescheduling a game, the Commissioner will be guided by the procedures specified in 17-1-5–11, above. In all
cases, the Commissioner will conduct a full investigation, including the opportunity for hearings, use of game video, and any
other procedure the Commissioner deems appropriate.



Reading these together, here is what I think:

ARTICLE 1 would obviously cover, "...Outside of the accepted tactics encountered in professional football that such action has a major effect on the result of the game," even wanting for some specific rule that says you can't do that. There's no question that doing nothing but kneeling the entire game would have a major effect on the result of the game (it would literally be manufacturing a result) and the rules give the Commissioner blanket authority, in his sole discretion, to determine whether or not same would constitute an unfair act.

ARTICLE 2 says, in part, "...will be conducted solely on the Commissioner’s initiative to review an act or occurrence that the Commissioner deems so extraordinary or unfair that the result of the game in question would be inequitable to one of the participating teams."

---The only thing that I think ARTICLE 2 kind of leaves open is that it specifies that the act be inequitable to one of the participating teams, which leaves this matter a little bit open (I think) because...while it's blatantly inequitable, it's inequitable only to teams who are NOT participating in the game.

ARTICLE 3 specifies that a Commissioner can reverse the result of a game, but doesn't say anything directly about changing it (such as declaring that both teams actually lose), but even without that, the Commissioner could reverse the Tie and declare that the two teams must replay the game and instead try to win.

That said, even if it were to somehow be decided that Article 2 is sufficient to prevent the Commissioner from taking action because the conduct was not, "Unfair," to either of the participating teams, you can be darn sure that there would be indefinite suspensions handed out after the season to pretty much everyone that Goodell could justify suspending.
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billryan
billryan
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January 4th, 2022 at 9:23:58 AM permalink
Going back to when Mike Piazza played for the Mets, my BIL bought a partial season package for eight games, all on Sundays,
Most Sunday games back then were day games and most Saturday games were night games. Since Piazza rarely played in a day game that followed a night game, they went almost the whole season without getting to see the Mets premiere draw. My BIL wrote to the Mets complaining about it, and to my surprise, they sent him tickets to the last three home games for free. It was a nice gesture on their part.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Mission146
Mission146
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TinMan
January 4th, 2022 at 9:27:15 AM permalink
Quote: TinMan

Quote: billryan

Does a coach, player or team have an obligation to try to win? If a tie gets you into the playoffs, how could anyone fault them for playing for a tie?
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The “product” of the NFL or any other sports league is NOT wins or playoff appearances or championships. The “product” is advertising revenue and in a distant second, item sales (jerseys, hats, etc). Teams are allowed some range of strategic decisions so long as they are not inconsistent with those actual goals of the league but if your strategy is inconsistent with keeping eyeballs on the ads and/or people buying merch, you’re providing an “inferior” product.


I could see scenarios where you wouldn’t get punished for playing for a tie—eg OT and the other team already kicked a FG. You’re on the 1 yard line and kick the FG on 1st down for a tie rather than try for the TD (I believe the game stops at that point but could be wrong). But if both team just kneel it down all game Roger Goodell is going to tear the teams apart/fines/lost draft picks.

There was a situation in the NBA where teams were resting their stars during easy games. I think that’s 100% fine/strategic but the commish wasn’t having it. Teams started getting fined. It hurts advertising sales and therefore can’t be allowed.
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Rule 16, Section 1, Article 3 states, in part:

Quote:

If the team that possesses the ball first scores a field goal on its initial possession, the other team (the second team) shall have the opportunity to possess the ball.
If the second team scores a touchdown on its possession, it is the winner.
If the second team scores a field goal on its possession, the team next scoring by any method shall be the winner.
If the second team does not score on its possession, the game is over, and the first team is the winner, subject to (4) below.
If the second team loses possession by an interception or fumble, the down will be permitted to run to its conclusion, and all rules of the game will be enforced as customary, including awarding points scored by either team during the down. If the second team scores a touchdown on the down after regaining possession, it is the winner. Only fouls that require the down to be replayed, fouls that negate a score, or palpably unfair acts will be enforced.



If both teams score a Field Goal the FIRST time each team possesses the ball, then the Overtime period reverts to sudden death.

With that, two teams could enter OT at a score of 24-24, or what have you, and it could become 27-27 and the game keeps going, but then ends up being Sudden Death after that point.
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Wizard
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Mission146
January 4th, 2022 at 9:28:59 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Does a coach, player or team have an obligation to try to win? If a tie gets you into the playoffs, how could anyone fault them for playing for a tie?
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I agree with TinMan's reply to this one. I would add that the tie incentive can influence their behavior, but they still should and will make a good-faith effort to do the right thing.

I've written before about the overtime incentive in the NHL in regular season games and shown the ratio of games that go into overtime is significantly statistically higher in the regular season than the post season. Nobody, I think, begrudges teams for slow playing a tied game in the third period and they know why. I could see something similar in the LV/Rams game where they slow play it if the game is tied in the fourth quarter. As long as there is no overt collusion, it's all good with me.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Mission146
Mission146
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January 4th, 2022 at 9:29:16 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Going back to when Mike Piazza played for the Mets, my BIL bought a partial season package for eight games, all on Sundays,
Most Sunday games back then were day games and most Saturday games were night games. Since Piazza rarely played in a day game that followed a night game, they went almost the whole season without getting to see the Mets premiere draw. My BIL wrote to the Mets complaining about it, and to my surprise, they sent him tickets to the last three home games for free. It was a nice gesture on their part.
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That's pretty outstanding! That's one of those nice things that, unfortunately, they can't really make a big presentation of advertising...or everyone else would be trying to do the same thing.
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Mission146
Mission146
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January 4th, 2022 at 9:32:50 AM permalink
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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January 4th, 2022 at 9:40:08 AM permalink
If I were Roger Goodell, I would:

A.) Resign, because I positively suck at my job and every single personage involved in the NFL, aside from a few owners, as well as all of the fans...absolutely hate me and wish I was never born.

That failing:

B.) If two teams spent the entire game kneeling, I wouldn't cause the teams to lose any draft picks, but I would fine both teams in the entire amount of their shares of the league revenue for the entire season AND suspend the HC and primary assistant (OC, DC, STC) coaches indefinitely and to take effect immediately.
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billryan
billryan
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Mission146
January 4th, 2022 at 9:54:05 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

If I were Roger Goodell, I would:

A.) Resign, because I positively suck at my job and every single personage involved in the NFL, aside from a few owners, as well as all of the fans...absolutely hate me and wish I was never born.

That failing:

B.) If two teams spent the entire game kneeling, I wouldn't cause the teams to lose any draft picks, but I would fine both teams in the entire amount of their shares of the league revenue for the entire season AND suspend the HC and primary assistant (OC, DC, STC) coaches indefinitely and to take effect immediately.
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For making the playoffs and insuring none of his players got hurt in the process?

If Indy loses, and the rest of the dominos fall into place so that both the Raiders and Chargers are in the playoffs, do you expect a competitive game? Do you think the starters play all the way
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
moses
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Mission146
January 4th, 2022 at 10:06:21 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: DRich

None of those scenarios consider ties amongst the playoff contenders. What are the odds of a tie game in Week 18?
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Fun scenario of the day:

Jax beats Colts
Steelers beat Ravens

Then the late Sunday game between Chargers and Raiders gets interesting. While still win and in, both teams would be in the playoffs with a tie. What incentives for collusion! Four quarters of kneel downs!
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So if Steelers, Chargers, Raiders end in a 3 way tie. Steelers are out?
Mission146
Mission146
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January 4th, 2022 at 10:11:03 AM permalink
Quote: billryan



For making the playoffs and insuring none of his players got hurt in the process?

If Indy loses, and the rest of the dominos fall into place so that both the Raiders and Chargers are in the playoffs, do you expect a competitive game? Do you think the starters play all the way
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The starters do not have to play throughout in order for the game to be competitive. They could play second stringers for the entire game and a competitive game could still take place.

I don't think that they're necessarily going to play hard, as they often don't for the Pro Bowl, either...but you're simply not going to have nothing but kneel downs for an entire game. It's the Sunday Night game and the last televised game of the regular season; I promise there would be serious repercussions.

Besides, a great number of players wouldn't go for it, principle alone.
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