Down and out at Intertops

Let me start by saying that Intertops is one of the largest Internet casinos to take US players and generally have a very good reputation for good customer service and fast payouts. That said, I don't want to this post to come off that I'm an Intertops hater, but more as a warning about falling into a trap that I fell in regarding bonus rules. I also plan to write a full article on this topic and am fishing for comments to decide what angle I should take. I will be honest in this thread and try to not hold anything back.

That said, Intertops offers bonuses on slots once or twice a week that despite huge play-through requirements and a $10 maximum bet, can be quite lucrative. They have a lot of RTG slots to choose from, which are generally volatile to begin with, but are kind enough to give a volatility rating on each one. By choosing high variance games, like Paydirt, and betting the maximum, I strongly believe an advantage could be had by betting the maximum every spin over as few pay-lines as possible (four lines at $2.50 each) with a shoot for the moon strategy or go bust trying. It is icing on the cake of the random bonus on a game is high.

I made a deposit of about $1,000 in early 2018 and played through lots of bonuses. In the typical bonus I would deposit $100 or $200, which would get a 100% match, sometimes more. Usually I busted out, but sometimes reached my play-through requirement with a small four-figure profit. After doing this for about a year, my balance was about $2,500. Then I heard through the grapevine that they were getting tough on bonus abusers and got worried. I still played a few more bonuses, which didn't go well. When my balance got to $2,000 I decided to cut and run.

After putting in a withdrawal I got the following Email a couple days later:

Quote: Intertops

Dear Michael,

Thank you for choosing Intertops.

This e-mail is to advise you that your pending withdrawal via Bitcoin for US$1998 has been declined as in checking your account the terms and conditions were not adhered to.

Casino Terms & Conditions

Section 2: Bonus Promotions & Slot Tournaments

2.3 If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.

As a result of the above US$1137.77 has been deducted from your account as you are in violation of our terms and conditions (Coupons "MOTHER2018" redeemed on May 12, 2018 and "SPARKLINGWIN" redeemed on May 25, 2018 were both claimed on US$100.00 transfer to the casino which were not actual deposits).

Should you require any further information or assistance, please feel free to contact us.

Yours Sincerely,

Jade

Intertops Financial Services

Okay, a couple points here.

First, like many Internet casinos, Intertops has what I'll call a "main wallet" as well as wallets for the various ways to gamble within Intertops, specifically the Casino Classic, Casino Red, Sportsbook, and Poker. Whatever you want to play, you have to transfer money from your main wallet to one of the four sub-wallets I just listed. Whenever I finished playing a bonus if I had any money left, I transfered it back to the main wallet. Personally, I always considered it just moving money around within Intertops and not making deposits and withdrawals each time I played. I would like to emphasize that I only once made a deposit to Intertops with outside money.

Second, it was plainly obvious what I was doing. Intertops was blasting me with bonus offers by bonus Email and postal mail on a weekly basis. It would seem by their interpretation of rule 2.3, which they quote, is that you must use new money to play a bonus, which hasn't been played yet before. I circulated the same money back and forth with them for over a year and they had never had an issue. Furthermore, I know of other players who did this on a much larger scale than I did and never had an issue. By tempting me with bonus offers when I was already a proven long-time player with what I'll call "old money" in my account, they were setting me up to fail. Lose gambling and I lose. Win gambling and they throw rule 2.3 in my face and seize my winnings down the road when I ask for it.

The next step I took was to file a dispute with the Casino Reps feature at our sister site, Latest Casino Bonuses. LCB is a great site that strives to resolve disputes between their members and casinos they promote. One of these casinos is Intertops. In my request for some help, I stated the same arguments I'm making here. Intertops came back with the following in a very expedient manner, which I applaud.

Quote: Intertops

Hi Michael,

Thank you very much for your useful input.

Deposit bonus offers are of course intended for depositing players. Transferring chips (and winnings) in and out of the Casino within the shared wallet cannot be regarded as real deposits. A thorough auditing takes place as soon as a real payout is requested and then we apply our rules. We send frequent bonus offers, as players are able to make frequent new deposits. Many players take advantage of these bonus offers by making frequent deposits – many of them even a few times a day.
We kindly ask you to accept our decision, which applies to our rules.

If you have any further question, please contact our casino support team at casino@intertops.eu, thank you!

Kind regards,

Your Intertops Affiliate Team

So there you have Intertop's side. I concede they make a valid point.

The big picture here is casino and bonus rules are getting so long and complicated that it is like navigating a minefield for a player to do a bonus and not violate any rules. Not just Intertops -- but seemingly everybody! Even when a player does carefully obey every rule, many casinos will seize funds anyway and file it under "bonus abuse" and quote the ubiquitous policy that they "reserve all rights" and "decisions of casino management are final."

In closing, let me say that this situation is a bit complicated and I'm not saying that I am completely innocent. I'll even say that Intertops has some good qualities. As long as you don't play any bonuses or are a consistent loser, you'll probably be very happy with them. I tell this story as a general warning about bonus pitfalls in general.

I welcome all comments, pro and con. Again, I plan to write an article on this and am looking for feedback on how I should spin it.

I used to play a lot online as there were some really advantage bonus offers. Over the years the rules got more and more slanted in the casinos favor. You are right in that the rules get more and more complicated. The play through is also unreasonable in many places. The end came for me when I took a 100% match up to 500. I deposit the 500 and start with 1000. The play through was 30X on the bonus only. I could live with that and knew I had to play a total of 500 X 30 = 15,000 plus my original 500. The max bet was only 5 dollars per spin. The rule I missed and was not aware of was it had to be cleared in 7 days.

I was enjoying myself and was way ahead thanks to some big hits. I log in on the 8th day and the money is gone....WTH. That is when I found out I had to clear the bonus in 7 days. Chat told me there was nothing they could do as it was in the T&C. I asked how I was supposed to clear 15,500 in just 7 days at max 5 a spin? I had a total of 3,400 in my account that was wiped out. I did not always play even close to the max bet as I was having fun and wanted it to last. I asked for my deposit back....fat chance. That was the end of online gambling for me.


Your problem was completely different I realize but still the rules are made as a casino advantage. Like me your issue was covered in the T&C so you have no recourse. After you initial deposit you offered the casino no incentive as to keep you as a valuable player. They had your money and they knew it. Their only hope was you would lose all your money and send some new dollars. Once you decided to withdraw they pounced.

I think your article should slant how the T&C are complicated and grossly favor the casino. If you are going to deposit understand every rule before you send money. In 2019 online casino gambling is generally not a good investment. I would say if you must play don't take bonuses. Also today there is usually a brick and mortar casino not too far from your home. If you win, you will be paid.

Quote: Wizard

...

2.3 If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.

I can understand how they'd be p1553d if you are only moving money to an offline wallet. But this rule would actually preclude taking your money out of the casino, buying a round of drinks with it, depositing some cash from your own back pocket while taking a bonus and playing some more. Now THAT would be outrageous on their part.

So I understand...you (for example) put $1,000 "in", but played $100 (for example) at a time. You viewed each hundred as a deposit, whereas they looked at the $1,000 as the deposit?

On the surface and with limited understanding, this sounds more a case of Wild Wild Westitis as opposed to manufactured malfeasance for malfeasancanceses sake. In other words, with no standardized set of rules, the rules are left to interpretation, all of which requires a lawman's level of legal understanding to nail. As a layman, I can understand their view (assuming my above assumption on the incident is correct)

BUT, this obviously isn't a good look, as the grey area is such that one could CLAIM the same ol internet nonsense of taking with no recourse. It also seems foolish as their rules would cause people chasing these bonuses to make many smaller deposits as opposed to one big one, which 1) doesn't protect your bonus, and 2) lessens the amount they as a company "have". Everyone knows once you convert to credits/tickets/chips/cheques/tokens/gift cards, you are tons more likely to spend the entirety of it at that location. And this policy discourages that, as well as slashes at the convenience of it all.

If my understanding of the incident is accurate, I'd say it's worthy of discussion but not pursuit. I give it 2 pitchforks out of 7.

WoO,

I'm trying to understand the quoted T&C's.

If you had withdrawn your money after each session, then made a new deposit for each new session, you would have been in compliance?

Dog Hand

I think it sucks but I think seeing the actual Tc would give us a better idea. To me it seems like if you are transferring to their main wallet then you should not be eligible for the bonus and their ruling is valid. Yes it is crap that they only uphold the rule when you lose. I think their system should.be smart enough to not allow a bonus from that money anyways.

Let me add that I was taken by cool Kat casino the same way for 2k. I played and won, did cash out with no problems. Received a card in the mail for deposit bonus. Did the bonus and won a jackpot of 2500. Met the play through and withdrew. Was told that you are not allowed another bonus with redeposited money. So basically if you ever win you cant get another bonus until you have given back all of your winnings.

So even if you pulled the money out a redeposit it in wonder if they would say the same based on those quoted terms

Quote: GWAE

they only uphold the rule when you lose. I think their system should.be smart enough to not allow a bonus from that money anyways.

Exactly. If they awarded the bonus on a transfer in from a wallet, then they indeed DID award a bonus. They should honor that or not award it.

I'm having a real problem with the math/logic of the take-back.

I guess they're saying you won on those 2 bonuses, and saying since the bonus receipt was illegal in each case, they took back ALL the winnings? Of which they included what: the hundred you used to fund those bonuses, as well as the $100 bonus match, and winnings above that?

In those 2 transactions, did they allow you to keep the $100 seed money in both cases?

I take it they didn't return/account for your "illegally" LOST starting money the other times you "incorrectly" funded a sub-wallet from your main wallet? The times you busted out the bonus and base bet, when you would not have gambled, had they not offered the 100% match?

That type of selective accounting is very inequitable, perhaps actionable. They should refund the $100, win or lose, with which you staked EACH gambling session beyond the first bonus from the $1000 br.

But Idk your balances or results other than what you've reported, so perhaps I'm missing something.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I would say that any money from ANY source put into your main wallet is a deposit, else leave it in the sub-wallet. Its not some internal transfer, it is a deposit if it goes into the main wallet.

Quote: GWAE

So even if you pulled the money out a redeposit it in wonder if they would say the same based on those quoted terms

That's sadly typical of how they rip us off. Rule 1. The casino can close your account and or seize your balance whenever the mood takes it, at its absolute discretion.

And they do!

The Wiz made a deposit to a wallet inside Intertops. He sends money from wallet to casino in Intertops leaving the rest in the wallet. Wiz wins at the casino and sends the winning back to the wallet. What he had to do was withdraw the win and there would be no problems. He takes his winning out of Intertops and then he can make a deposit from the remaining wallet money back to the casino...no problem. His problem was he did not withdraw the winnings but sent it back to the wallet and use it to gain another bonus deposit.

If he withdraws aech win to his outside holder he is ok. He did not do that

Quote: Wizard

I tell this story as a general warning about bonus pitfalls in general.

How carefully do you have to tread? The quoted sentence above seems to be the fairest--and in your case safest--angle to use. If anyone else here wrote such an article it would be fine. It's an important warning. You however, as a payed employee of the Wizard sites and whose very name and likeness come with the package, are in a more awkward position. The 2nd and 3rd to last paragraphs of the OP essentially amount to an indictment of the entire online gaming industry, to the point that a schlub like me is thinking of just sticking to brick-and-mortar casinos to avoid all the internet pitfalls. Such a broad-brushed message might not sit well with current ownership. I don't envy your situation.

P.S. This is what happens when you play at a non "Wizard Approved" site.

Thank you for all the comments thus far.

First, I did many bonuses there and didn't keep track of the result of each one. So, I don't even know if they gave me back the original buy in for each one. To be honest, I am surprised they didn't seize my full balance, as I am quite sure that I won on more than two bonuses. I say this at some risk as I put in a withdrawal for the $800+ on Friday that I have left and that is still pending. It would not surprise me if I get audited again and they take that away too.

Second, I think it should be noted that they seem to contract themselves.

Quote: Rule 2.3

If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.

Quote: Response to my complaint

Deposit bonus offers are of course intended for depositing players. Transferring chips (and winnings) in and out of the Casino within the shared wallet cannot be regarded as real deposits.

So what does it mean to make a withdrawal? Is it talking about moving money completely out of Intertops or from wallet to wallet? The way I would interpret rule 2.3 is moving money completely out and then new money back in later. You can see in their response to LCB they are interpreting their vague language however benefits them.

The most dreaded rule of all is rule 2.6 below. Emphasis in bold is mine.

Quote: Intertops Rules & Conditions

Section 1: General Casino Rules
1.1 Sportsbook and Casino are operated by Thinkquick Ltd., a company registered by the government of St. Kitts and Nevis.

1.2 The legal betting age is 18 (eighteen).

1.3 Players should consult their local laws, as to whether or not placing a wager online is an illegal activity for the player in the player's jurisdiction.

1.4 Only one account may be opened per customer, per household, per shared computer and shared IP address.

1.5 All casino games are monitored by Intertops at all times. Consequently Intertops has the ability to track and review each hand/roll/slot pull/spin for each player and game offered.

1.6 Intertops shall make every effort to ensure the full protection of its customers. However, certain unforeseen events are beyond the control of Intertops. In the event of a disconnection for any reason whatsoever between the player and the casino, Intertops shall not be held liable for any resulting losses. The balance of a player’s account shall at all times be as recorded on the Intertops Casino games server.

1.7 Intertops Casino will not serve any customers from Costa Rica. Please see the general Intertops rules on the Intertops Sportsbook page for any other restricted countries at Intertops.

Section 2: Bonus Promotions & Slot Tournaments
2.1 Only one bonus per customer, per household, per shared computer and shared IP address at any given time.

2.2 All bonuses awarded to customers shall be considered as betting credits only. Intertops reserves the right to audit all requests for withdrawals, to reclaim any bonuses or winnings that have been accorded prior to a failed audit and to alter or discontinue a promotion at any time for any reason whatsoever, without notice.

2.3 If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.

2.4 Terms and Conditions for Intertops Casino Bonus

Deposit bonuses that are exclusive to our Casino have to be redeemed with the specific Coupon Code in the “Redeem Coupon” section of the cashier in the casino client. This must be done BEFORE the deposit is made. A bonus cannot be credited in retrospect.

Only one bonus per customer can be active at any time. The identity of a customer will be determined on the basis of all or any combination of the following: name, mailing address, e-mail address, IP address, credit card number, computer, and any other forms of identification which may be required.

Standard Wagering Requirements:
The bonus plus the corresponding deposit are credited to the bonus balance and have to be played through 30 times, unless otherwise stated. After completing the wagering requirements, the bonus balance is transferred to the withdrawable balance.

The bonus balance cannot be transferred from the casino.

Example:
In the event that Intertops awards a 100% bonus and the customer deposits $100, the customer must make wagers totaling at least $6,000 in the casino in order to request a withdrawal.

Only the following games count towards fulfilling the wagering requirements and are allowed to be played with an active bonus:

Bingo games
European Slot Poker
Keno
Scratch Cards
Slots
All bonus offers may include specific small print regarding the valid promotion period, bonus amount, play through requirements and allowed games.

Intertops reserves the right to change promotions at any time. In case of dispute, the decision of Intertops is final.

100% Welcome Bonus
The 100% Welcome Bonus can be only credited to accounts of players who have never before deposited into their Red Casino account (RTG).

Players are subject to the standard wagering requirements.

The minimum deposit required to receive the bonus is $20.

Non-Deposit Bonus
Any free money given without requiring a deposit has a maximum payout of 5 times the bonus amount.

This rule is also valid when a customer’s balance is positive at the time of redeeming the non-deposit bonus. After redeeming the bonus, the rule will only be annulled after the customer’s balance has reached $0 again.

Players are subject to double the standard wagering requirements.

Our birthday no-deposit bonus must be redeemed within one month of the birthday, all other no-deposit bonuses within one month of their receipt.

Customers cannot redeem multiple free bonuses/free spins offers consecutively: When a customer uses two or more free bonuses without making a real money deposit in between, management reserves the right to void any bonuses and winnings.

Free Spins
The winnings from Free Spins have to be wagered 60 times before a withdrawal can be made. A maximum of 5 times the initial free spins value in USD can be withdrawn, if no deposit was required - unless otherwise stated.

Free Spins are always limited to one specific game.

Free Spins must be completed at the specified game before any other game can be played.

The Free Spins do not change the terms and conditions of a corresponding deposit bonus.

Customers cannot redeem multiple free bonuses/free spins offers consecutively: When a customer uses two or more free bonuses without making a real money deposit in between, management reserves the right to void any bonuses and winnings.

General Intertops Deposit Bonus offers
If a deposit bonus granted in the Sportsbook is transferred into the casino, the standard wagering requirements as defined in 2.4 apply before a withdrawal can be processed.

2.5 In the event of customers’ deposits qualifying for more than one bonus promotion, the bonus with the highest percentage is valid.

2.6 Bonus programs are intended for recreational bettors only. Professional players or players considered to be abusing the bonus system may have their bonuses, as well as any winnings from wagers based on such bonuses, forfeited and be subject to further sanctions at the sole discretion of the Intertops management. In case of abuse, Intertops reserves the right to discontinue a customer's membership and to prevent the player from accessing any Intertops sites in the future.

2.6.1 Please note that customers who have not made any deposits can only claim free bonus winnings one time.

2.6.2 Customers whose last deposit is older than three months and claim a free bonus, are not entitled to a withdrawal.

2.6.3 Winnings made on linked accounts using same offers will automatically be voided. Intertops reserves the right to remove the bonuses and winnings from the accounts.

2.6.4 Max bet rule for all bonuses = $10.00. Any winnings plus bonus amounts will be voided in accordance with this max bet rule.

2.7 Intertops reserves the right to exclude customers from certain or all bonus promotions without prior notice. No correspondence will be entered into.

2.8 For additional and specific details see the small print of individual bonus promotions.

2.9 Slot Tournaments
The Tournament Buy-In will be deducted from your Real Money account balance. Bonuses cannot be used for Buy-Ins to Slot Tournaments.

The Intertops Bonus Rules apply to the Slot Tournament Buy-Ins. If you use the playable balance originating from a no-deposit bonus to enter a tournament, the maximum payout of 5 times the bonus will be applied to any tournament winnings.

Freeroll Tournaments are only for depositing customers. If a customer has never deposited, then they are ineligible for our Freeroll Tournaments.

Players excluded from redeeming bonuses cannot enter any Slot Tournaments.

If you are disconnected from the system during tournament play, the following rules apply: If you are disconnected during play, the slot will not spin on your behalf. If you reconnect within the tournament time, you can continue playing in the tournament. If you cannot reconnect, your Win Box total will remain static, reflecting the amount at the time of disconnection.

In case a slot tournament is canceled, the Buy-In will be refunded to the player account.

General Intertops Rules
Note: Intertops customers are subject to the general Intertops Sportsbook rules. Please click here for further details.

Source: https://casino.intertops.eu/en/terms

In all fairness, everybody seems to have a rule like 2.6. If I might make a radical suggestion to the industry, I think a fair way to think of bonus players is to congratulate them on their winnings and outsmarting the casino, pay them their money, close their account, and try to learn something from the experience. To seize money from a player who obeyed all rules would be like Jeopardy taking 1.6 million from James Holzhauer because he was being too greedy.

Can you imagine a brick and morter casino seizing your money if you won on free play?

All these rules are just shady.

You need to use your Wizardly status and tell them to pay you, or else. Then you need to tell them to make it more clear upfront( A pop up notice/warning when people opt in for a bonus) and don't even award a bonus for a wallet transfer. How hard is it to program that into their system? There is only one good reason I can think of that they allow you to take bonuses via a wallet transfer, and that is so they can free roll you. Had you lost would they have refunded your money? I can answer that with a BIG FAT NO. They shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways. What would happen if you made transfer to the casino from your wallet, took a bonus, made a few wagers and then you realized didn't do it right and contacted support?

Are you still eligible to play new bonuses using outside deposits? If so, just do that and make back all the money they took plus some.

Quote: AxelWolf

You need to use your Wizardly status and tell them to pay you, or else.

Well, you can see I'm already writing about this here and plan to write an article. As angry as I am over this, it's important to me to be fair and to not act out of anger or revenge. I also need to stress that this is an industry-wide problem, especially for US players who have few choices.

It would be nice if any Internet casino would step us and declare that they respect their own rules and honor their own deals.

Quote: Wizard

The big picture here is casino and bonus rules are getting so long and complicated that it is like navigating a minefield for a player to do a bonus and not violate any rules.

Heh, reminds me of years ago when I tried to follow a guy's strategy for winning free sweepstakes. The really sketchy contests had really onerous rules, that became a real PITA to follow.

In the beginning, cerca 2000 to 2001, the honest online casinos got their butts kicks. Many were new and didn't understand the business. Savy players took advantage of easy bonuses with easy and vulnerable terms and conditions. I say the honest casinos, because the dishonest ones had their own strategies, and they weren't going to be beat anyway. But this is 2019 now. The legit online casinos have had 20 years to learn how to write terms and conditions, and generally tweek all the holes in their game. They are NOT going to be beat now, not by bonus users at least. That opportunity has come and gone. I'm sure many of us took full advantage twenty years ago. I know I did. Just accept it as good memories, the good old days, because you are not going to win the same way now. Not going to happen. And not worth the headache. Wait till the United States industry is wide open. They'll probably make the same dumb mistakes and have to go through a learning curve just like the foreigners did.

Quote: Wizard

Well, you can see I'm already writing about this here and plan to write an article. As angry as I am over this, it's important to me to be fair and to not act out of anger or revenge. I also need to stress that this is an industry-wide problem, especially for US players who have few choices.

It would be nice if any Internet casino would step us and declare that they respect their own rules and honor their own deals.

Guess who is to blame for the industry acting how it does?

It's the affiliates fault. Without them, most of the online casinos would not exist. You are a rare exception who seems to really care. Most of the affiliates(large and small) don't want to be too hard on their cash cows. Oftentimes, it's only the most egregious acts that get online casinos on a blacklist. Then there are all those casino friendly levels they attach to the online casino's. ALL casinos online should start off on New Play With Caution list and earn their grade.

Affiliates should run their sites more like a good heath department where you have to pass a test before you ever get on an affiliate site. If there is a problem, put them and black list and make them fix the problems or else they stay there. There should be a 3 strikes and you are out rule.

I would love to see how many affiliates are still getting affiliate money from casino they even have on a lower tier list.
*I reserve the right to have an affiliate site that is hypocritical everything I just said.

A side question. When an online casino gets a certified payback percentage (let's assume its a legitimate certification, I'm not sure if that's even possible)

Do they count the bonuses into their overall payback percentage? There is a well known online casino that makes some outrageously high payback claims. If true, IMO, they would be getting crushed by the bonuses and the affiliate programs from the regular players. Lots of weekly bonuses, buy in bonus etc 100% match, 10- 35x rollover on slots that are supposedly only a 2% loss. Now pay affiliates some outrageous amount. Does not compute.

Not to mention, my experience is telling me it's no where close to the payback percentage they are claiming. I would be willing to make a wager on it.

Quote: bobbartop

They are NOT going to be beat now, not by bonus users at least. That opportunity has come and gone. .

I'm sorry happy to say, but you are wrong on this.

It will all be in my next book that I co write with DO(-;

Quote:

Rule 2.3. If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.

(1) This seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation. If you make a withdrawal and then you re-deposit, you're violating Rule 2.3. If you *don't* withdraw, then they cancel your winnings anyway because "Deposit bonus offers are of course intended for depositing players....Transferring chips in and out of the Casino within the shared wallet cannot be regarded as real deposits." Maybe what they mean is that you have to *lose* before you're eligible for another bonus, because if you lose, there's no money to withdraw or not withdraw. But in that case:

(2a) Their T&C should be *exceptionally clear* about that. It's not. That's their fault, and they should take responsibility when they fail to spell out the rules properly. And:

(2b) If they want to disallow a bonus based on how you funded your account, their system shouldn't give you the bonus in the first place. If it does, that's their fault, not yours, and they likewise ought to take responsibility.

I wouldn't promote Intertops on my site (Easy.Vegas). Some casinos think they're saving money by nickel-and-diming their customers, but that means they don't get advertising and endorsements from trusted websites. Casinos are constantly writing to get on my site and I consistently say no. I've advertised Bovada exclusively for around 15 years now, because they're the best bet for U.S. players (not because they're completely wart-free, but because no even better alternatives exist). The only way to get on my site is to be a better casino.

To paraphrase Mr. Burns from the Simpsons, put that in your pipe and smoke it, Intertops.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm sorry happy to say, but you are wrong on this.

It will all be in my next book that I co write with DO(-;

I fondly remember my introduction to bonus-whoring. There were dozens of 100% match bonuses that one could play-through on blackjack, at 5X deposit and bonus. I thought I had gone to Heaven.

Looking forward to you NEXT book. But what's the name of your LAST book?

Quote: bobbartop

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm sorry happy to say, but you are wrong on this.

It will all be in my next book that I co write with DO(-;

I fondly remember my introduction to bonus-whoring. There were dozens of 100% match bonuses that one could play-through on blackjack, at 5X deposit and bonus. I thought I had gone to Heaven.

Looking forward to you NEXT book. But what's the name of your LAST book?

It's called: Why AP's shouldn't be idiots and write books about AP.

It's a really short book. I can send you a copy via PM, however, I don't think you need it.

There are a few that have less than 5 times roll over, however, that's rare. I get what you are saying, it's not like it used to be, $2000 for 2000 with a 3 times wagering req. I think the standard went to 10x for a while and on up from there. Now with BTC being a thing it's easier than ever to play online. But just like everything else, when something changes or goes away there are other things that pop up in it's place, sometimes it's even better than before.

There was a time when VP seemed to be dying out, but then, casino started to get generous with free play.

fIt used to be double on 4 a kind promotions you would see all the time. Back then, I never really seen a loss rebate like the ones they have nowadays. But then suddenly, they were having loss rebates all over.

Bonus banking machines were fading out for a while, but now look at it.

That's why I don't agree with the..... 'Its over now, so lets go on the radio and talk about it and then write some books'

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Maybe what they mean is that you have to *lose* before you're eligible for another bonus, because if you lose, there's no money to withdraw or not withdraw.

That's been clear to me for at least the last decade. I have, in fact, made a few small plays since the world ended in 2006. But it's a pain in the ass either way. Sometimes loading your deposit is more of a pain than collecting. Just forget it.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's why I don't agree with the..... 'Its over now, so lets go on the radio and talk about it and then write some books'

Good point. I guess if Phil Ivey can get over on a major corporation with edge-sorting in THESE days, I could believe anything. What a buncha dopes.

Quote: vegas

If he withdraws aech win to his outside holder he is ok. He did not do that

That SHOULD be true. But re-read the rule as they quoted it to Wizard and re-read of GWAE's experience where he DID fully withdraw and they still penalised him.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/online/32987-down-and-out-at-intertops/#post716807

That said, Wizard should have known better than to just pop the money in his main wallet. DON'T maintain a high online casino balance: PROVE that at least a few withdrawals are honored and WITHDRAW ANY PROFITS soon and often.

I too have suffered online where a casino closes an account after a bonus was taken FULLY within the letter and the spirit of the rules. It's a dreadful cost of business when you play online.

Quote: OnceDear

That said, Wizard should have known better than to just pop the money in his main wallet. DON'T maintain a high online casino balance: PROVE that at least a few withdrawals are honored and WITHDRAW ANY PROFITS soon and often.

I totally agree, I have said this before. However, as you know, sometimes it's unavoidable. Given the way The Wizard was playing it sounds like you could lose, lose, lose, lose then hit big. Now suddenly you are in a situation where your account is high, yet you have invested a significant amount of money. -EV for sure since they can free roll you. And sometimes you get comfortable with a casino online if you have been cashing in and out decent amounts without a problem. You tend to let the balance get a little higher each time since all has been going well so far. But now with BTC I cant think of a good reason not to make frequent cash outs. Unless perhaps you are in a situation where a cash out is pending but there is a bonus you only have a limited time to use. *Decisions, decisions.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote:

Rule 2.3. If customers withdraw money from their account and then return it, they will not be eligible for a re-deposit bonus.

(1) This seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation. If you make a withdrawal and then you re-deposit, you're violating Rule 2.3. If you *don't* withdraw, then they cancel your winnings anyway because "Deposit bonus offers are of course intended for depositing players....Transferring chips in and out of the Casino within the shared wallet cannot be regarded as real deposits." Maybe what they mean is that you have to *lose* before you're eligible for another bonus, because if you lose, there's no money to withdraw or not withdraw. But in that case:0

(2a) Their T&C should be *exceptionally clear* about that. It's not. That's their fault, and they should take responsibility when they fail to spell out the rules properly. And:

(2b) If they want to disallow a bonus based on how you funded your account, their system shouldn't give you the bonus in the first place. If it does, that's their fault, not yours, and they likewise ought to take responsibility.

I wouldn't promote Intertops on my site (VegasClick). Some casinos think they're saving money by nickel-and-diming their customers, but that means they don't get advertising and endorsements from trusted websites. Casinos are constantly writing to get on my site and I consistently say no. I've advertised Bovada exclusively for around 15 years now, because they're the best bet for U.S. players (not because they're completely wart-free, but because no even better alternatives exist). The only way to get on my site is to be a better casino.

To paraphrase Mr. Burns from the Simpsons, put that in your pipe and smoke it, Intertops.

I have to agree for the most part Bovada (or as Micky likes to call it BovAda (-;) have been real good. However, I think they totally F****D up how they handled the BetSoft scam. They got to use that situation to their advantage and lots of people got screwed. Personally, I think they knew more than they would like us to know. And why won't they allow people from Nevada play there anymore? They think they will somehow get into the NV gambling market, so they need to be good? They thought the LV sports books were going to put a hit out on them?

being a suspicious person by nature - having encountered so many scams and ripoffs in my lifetime - I would conclude this:


they 𝐝𝐞𝐥𝐢𝐛𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐥𝐲 made the rules very complicated and confusing knowing many would not follow them to the letter and then they would not be obligated to pay the various bonuses



in other words - they devised a legal way to screw the player out of bonuses

Quote: OnceDear

That said, Wizard should have known better than to just pop the money in his main wallet. DON'T maintain a high online casino balance: PROVE that at least a few withdrawals are honored and WITHDRAW ANY PROFITS soon and often.

I was told by other players that they honored withdrawals to players like me as long as they were not too big. As to how big "big" is, I was told the grey area was somewhere around several thousand.

Quote: OnceDear

That SHOULD be true. But re-read the rule as they quoted it to Wizard and re-read of GWAE's experience where he DID fully withdraw and they still penalised him.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/online/32987-down-and-out-at-intertops/#post716807

That said, Wizard should have known better than to just pop the money in his main wallet. DON'T maintain a high online casino balance: PROVE that at least a few withdrawals are honored and WITHDRAW ANY PROFITS soon and often.

I too have suffered online where a casino closes an account after a bonus was taken FULLY within the letter and the spirit of the rules. It's a dreadful cost of business when you play online.

GWAE'S problem was he deposited and played at a known scam casino. Cool Kat casino is known all across the internet as a terrible casino who will screw you at every chance. They do sometimes pay the small winners but if you win big....good luck.

I can give you a long list of casinos that are not trustworthy and should never be played at. Many offer huge bonuses 200% - 500%. I can also give you a list of casinos that will always pay you unless you break some big rule.

Quote: vegas

GWAE'S problem was he deposited and played at a known scam casino. Cool Kat casino is known all across the internet as a terrible casino who will screw you at every chance. They do sometimes pay the small winners but if you win big....good luck.

I can give you a long list of casinos that are not trustworthy and should never be played at. Many offer huge bonuses 200% - 500%. I can also give you a list of casinos that will always pay you unless you break some big rule.

Should have mentioned, this was at least 10 years ago. Not sure if they were on the list yet. Probably but lists were a little tougher to find.

Quote: Wizard

I was told by other players that they honored withdrawals to players like me as long as they were not too big. As to how big "big" is, I was told the grey area was somewhere around several thousand.

If this is true then I would classify Intertop as a ROGUE casino! Deciding not to pay based on amount won easily has them qualify for that title.

Allowing a system that is basically "Heads I lose, Tails doesn't count" also clearly establishes them as ROGUE. I would hope you and LCB make it clear that they are ROGUE.

Quote: GWAE

Should have mentioned, this was at least 10 years ago. Not sure if they were on the list yet. Probably but lists were a little tougher to find.

Cool Cat = bad for like forever. I'm quite sure they were on Casinomeister's Sh*t List from the time I started reading and listening to his site and podcast, and that was around 2001. I assume they are still RTG software, and many RTGs are notorious. A few were good. The software itself is great, they have great video poker games. They just don't care who they let use their software.

Quote: SOOPOO

If this is true then I would classify Intertop as a ROGUE casino! Deciding not to pay based on amount won easily has them qualify for that title.

Allowing a system that is basically "Heads I lose, Tails doesn't count" also clearly establishes them as ROGUE. I would hope you and LCB make it clear that they are ROGUE.

My impression of them was that they were ok. I just never used them because video poker was always an excluded game with bonuses. But over the years I've seen highly acclaimed casinos or casino groups go from good to bad. Some really surprised me. It's still the Wild West out there.

Quote: AxelWolf

Y..make it more clear upfront( A pop up notice/warning when people opt in for a bonus) and don't even award a bonus for a wallet transfer. How hard is it to program that into their system? There is only one good reason I can think of that they allow you to take bonuses via a wallet transfer, and that is so they can free roll you.

This is the really dishonest part to me. Yes, by a careful accounting of the rules, the Wiz did not follow the specific script of money movement needed. BUT, they awarded the bonus money anyway! As Axel so eloquently stated...at the time you transfer the money from the main "wallet" to the casino wallet, it is possible to know if it was "fresh" money or not. And if it doesn't meet the rules, just don't award the deposit. But then they would miss out on the freeroll. Very unethical.

Quote: vegas

GWAE'S problem was he deposited and played at a known scam casino. Cool Kat casino is known all across the internet as a terrible casino who will screw you at every chance. They do sometimes pay the small winners but if you win big....good luck.

I can give you a long list of casinos that are not trustworthy and should never be played at. Many offer huge bonuses 200% - 500%. I can also give you a list of casinos that will always pay you unless you break some big rule.

I'd be interested in both lists.

Quote: Wizard

I'd be interested in both lists.

For some reason I thought you were personal friends with Casinomeister. Give his site a look, or better yet, give your buddy a call. (He lives in Germany) My impression is that YOU and Casinomeister are two of the squarest guys in the business, both honorable and trustworthy. If you don't know him, introduce yourself. I bet you'll become good friends.

I am on the road for a few days. Will do when I get home. I will pm you.

Five pages of posts...add up all the time and frustration..... no so-called bonus is worth it. If these much trumpeted bonuses are an illusion the player is wasting his time.

Quote: bobbartop

For some reason I thought you were personal friends with Casinomeister.

I am.

Quote: FleaStiff

Five pages of posts...add up all the time and frustration..... no so-called bonus is worth it. If these much trumpeted bonuses are an illusion the player is wasting his time.

Despite all the frustration and outright getting stiffed, people are still making good money playing bonuses. It used to be much easier, but it can still be done.

Quote: FleaStiff

Five pages of posts...add up all the time and frustration..... no so-called bonus is worth it. If these much trumpeted bonuses are an illusion the player is wasting his time.

If I win 10k on bonuses before I have issues collecting 1k, how am I wasting my time?

Rhetorical question

You sez "I don't want to this post to come off that I'm an Intertops hater"
You read more like an Intertops spokeswoman alright. You make sure you convince the readers that the casinos are right regarding their bonuses and withdrawals. You win you get no money mates!

one can read the terms as clearly as a genius and understands that u can bet the n times your "bonus" without new deposits. But if u go to court they might apply their 2.3 rule more quickly. that’s crooked.

the internet casinos are crooks make no mistake about it. I wrote here some similar and casino guys jumped at my throat. curious Nevada gaming commission sided with me labeling the online bandits criminals but in milder terms.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/online/30393-beware-of-the-criminal-online-casinos/6/#post674489
BEWARE OF THE CRIMINAL ONLINE CASINOS!
(in the Online Gambling forum).

Quote: weezrDASvegas

You read more like an Intertops spokeswoman alright.

Emphasis mine. Personal insult, three-day suspension.

Quote: bobbartop

They are NOT going to be beat now, not by bonus users

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm sorry happy to say, but you are wrong on this.

It will all be in my next book that I co write with DO(-;

you frequently say stuff like this - but you never provide directions on how to do it

your methods are highly confidential

so what value is the info that you are giving?

can posters here become lifetime charter members of the Axelwolf fan club?

Quote: Wizard

Quote: weezrDASvegas

You read more like an Intertops spokeswoman alright.

Emphasis mine. Personal insult, three-day suspension.

In the spirit of today’s gender equality, I feel this suspension deserved reconsideration.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm sorry happy to say, but you are wrong on this.

It will all be in my next book that I co write with DO(-;

you frequently say stuff like this - but you never provide directions on how to do it

your methods are highly confidential

so what value is the info that you are giving?

can posters here become lifetime charter members of the Axelwolf fan club?

If he spoon fed you, would you want him to sing you the airplane song as well?