Can You Be Banned for Dice Control? Have Casinos Done This?

Quote: superrick

Quote:

Alan M
Don't believe me. Call the NGC Gaming Enforcement Division just as I did. Ask them for yourself.

Alan you wouldn't make a very good lawyer, why would you take hearsay on anything. I asked you to show us all the law that says you have to hit the back wall here in NV, can you please do that for all of us,.. the hell with hearsay!!!!!!

I showed you the rules from New Jersey. If you ever read my reports on my current website, and my previous website when I was with KCAL, you will see that the "rule" was never "written" but is accepted by the industry and the NGC.

It is not written in stone in Nevada as was the Ten Commandments. If you want it written "as law" in Nevada you're not going to find it. But I ask you to simply call the NGC and for that matter ask any casino of your choice what the rule is about craps throws. I am sure they will tell you the same thing. Does it mean you won't be paid on a short roll? Of course not. But the rule is the rule even if it is not always enforced.

And while we're talking about "enforcement" how about this one.

The other night at Caesars I forgot to throw out my usual $5 horn high ace deuce on a come out. The shooter threw aces. They paid my $26 anyway after asking me to throw down a nickel chip. Why? Because I always have a $5 horn high bet on the come out... I've had that bet for the last 15 years that I've been playing at Caesars. Yes, they bent the rules.

Quote: Ahigh

Then your posts are not legal.

LOL!!

OK, Ahigh, I gotta admit, that was a good Statler and Waldorf-type comment. :D

Quote: Ahigh

Then your posts are not legal.

Never did I say they were "legal." But they are accurate.

One day I will tell you why you were really banned from the Station Casinos.

Alan M

Do you know what it takes to make a law?????

It has to be written some where into law, Joe Blow can't just say it's a law, and it will stand up in a court of law.

There is no where in NV regulations that says anything about hitting the back wall, now we are only talking about NV, do you get that concept, I don't want to read it on some blog, I want you to show everybody the law that you are writing about!

There is so much bad information out there about playing craps, why would you want to add more!

Okay superrick, you're right. There are no rules in Nevada that are written down. So the next time you throw a point of six, and on your next throw it's a seven be sure to tell the crew that you did not lose your bets and you did not seven out. Be sure to tell them that there is no such written law in Nevada that says you lost. Be sure to tell them that because there is no such written law that you can keep throwing the dice and they should pay you when you throw another 6 no matter how many 7s might be thrown in between.

You see superrick, you're right. There is no written law in Nevada. So you can never 7 out in Nevada. There is no law. Period.

Wow.

Is there anyone or good proof that if you don't have to hit the back wall, you can gain a big advantage with particular sets or DI?

Quote: AxelWolf

Is there anyone or good proof that if you don't have to hit the back wall, you can gain a big advantage with particular sets or DI?

The pyramids on the back wall are supposed to deflect the dice in a random manner. Yet those who study and practice DI argue that they can roll the dice so that the dice come to rest just under the first line of pyramids.

It's happened to me but only by accident. Three times in a row I had a soft throw to the back wall at Bellagio with the dice coming to rest with 54 showing. Not in a million years could I do that intentionally, but the crew was so convinced that I did it on purpose and by design that it led to that incident that Ive talked about so many times.

Quote: Ahigh

Then your posts are not legal.

I mean AlanMendelson no offense when I say this, the subject of the S&W insult rarely has anything to do with whether or not it's funny:

AHigh, I always knew you had the sarcasm, but I can't help but find myself impressed at this newly displayed wit that goes with it!

Quote:

AxelWolf
Is there anyone or good proof that if you don't have to hit the back wall, you can gain a big advantage with particular sets or DI?

None unless it's a slider shot!

Every shot that is made bounce all over the place any way, they do not stay on axis, like all the dice schools want everybody to believe. Look at Ahighs slow-motion videos! Or this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc

...

Quote: Mission146

I mean AlanMendelson no offense when I say this, the subject of the S&W insult rarely has anything to do with whether or not it's funny:

AHigh, I always knew you had the sarcasm, but I can't help but find myself impressed at this newly displayed wit that goes with it!

I did not take it as an attempt to be funny. I simply said my information is accurate. And it is.

What's funny are some of the comments made on this forum regarding the rules about playing craps. I challenge Ahigh, Superrick or Mr V to willfully miss the back wall repeatedly and claim there is no rule that they must hit the back wall for their rolls to be valid.

Quote:

Alan M
The NGC says a valid/legal/acceptable roll must hit the back wall. Ask them.

Quote:

Alan M
Don't believe me. Call the NGC Gaming Enforcement Division just as I did. Ask them for yourself.

Quote:

Mr V I posted info from three states. Now, if you disagree that hitting the back wall is not needed to meet a "legal throw" I want to see your evidence. As we all know, the rule is not strictly enforced -- but it is still the rule. Because the rule is not strictly enforced does not mean that the rule has changed.

Yes,.. Alan you posted everything but what we are writing about and that is the regulations for the state of N.V., what's the problem, do you know that there is nothing in writing about hitting the back wall in the state of N.V, and you just don't want to admit it?

If you want to look at NJ gaming rules, here they are:

Quote:

19:47-1.8 Throw of the dice
Upon selection of the dice, the shooter shall make a Pass or Don't Pass
Bet after which he shall throw the two selected dice so that they leave his hand
simultaneously and in a manner calculated to cause them to strike the end of
the table farthest from him.

19:47-1.9 Invalid roll of the dice
(a) A roll of the dice shall be invalid whenever either or both of the dice
go off the table or whenever one die comes to rest on top of the other.
(b) The persons listed in (e) below shall have the authority to invalidate a
roll of the dice by calling "No Roll" for any of the following reasons:
1. The dice do not leave the shooter's hand simultaneously;
2. Either or both of the dice fail to strike an end of the table

http://www.state.nj.us/casinos/actreg/reg/docs_chapter47/c47s01.pdf

Calling a no roll, and taking the dice off someone because they are on a roll, is a big difference.

Do you know that a No roll should be called before both dice stop or in the air!

N.V. Has no rules on throwing the dice or anything else that has to do with playing craps.

You can call a no roll on me anytime that you want to! But its total BS that a boxman takes the dice off you because you are on a roll and one die missed the back wall one time, because it hit some chips and the die that hit it rolled back two ft.

Again Alan show us the regulations for the state of N.V. That says you have to hit the back wall, we don't care about any other state, we are not playing there!!!!

...

Vegas casino people who are reading this thread, and you
know they are, have to be laughing their asses off hoping
one of these know it all short rollers comes into their casino
and tells them what's what.

We had a taxi dispatcher who was routinely told by the drivers
over the radio to 'get fu**ed. ' He would laugh and say to me,
no, they can't fu*k me, but I can certainly fu*k them. Meaning
he had all the power and they had none.

That's the casinos. They have all the power and the players
have squat.

I've been told at the table that they can call a no roll or a yes roll whenever they want, if I'm not happy with their call that I don't have to play there.

I'm no expert on NV rules, regs, or laws. What I do believe is the golden rule is in effect at the tables. He who has the gold, makes the rules.

It would be fine with me if the both dice hit the wall or call a no roll always. The way it seems to work when I'm there is they call more no rolls when it would have done me good then when the 7out appears. They don't seem to have a problem accepting the short toll when it costs me, just when it helps.

With the new felts and laser sharp dice the way they dig in, it seems lately they are a little more lenient on the short roll, but it's also obvious I'm not trying to.
My argument there is "they both left my hand at the same time", it's really not my fault or intention to short one of them.

Quote: superrick

Yes,.. Alan you posted everything but what we are writing about and that is the regulations for the state of N.V., what's the problem, do you know that there is nothing in writing about hitting the back wall in the state of N.V, and you just don't want to admit it?

I said you were correct, superrick. The rules are not in writing. Even the NGC will tell you the rules are not in writing. So again, here is what I want you to do:

I want you to go to a casino and put a small amount of money on the passline. Let's say $10,000. And then I want you to establish a point. Let's say an "easy point" to make such as a 6. Then I want you to throw the dice... and if a 7 comes up as they take away your $10,000 on the passline I want you to ask them to show you the "rules" that say you lost. And if they show you some book that the casino published I want you to ask for the "law" or for the regulations of the NGC, or something that was passed by the Nevada legislature that says you lost.

Do that for me, OK?

Because that's the same thing that you're saying. Just as there are no written regulations at the NGC about "short rolls" (and as I said before, there aren't) there also are no written regulations in Nevada that talks about throwing a 7 before the passline number or point is repeated and the player losing their wager.

Now do that for me. Literally put your money on the line...

Let me repeat a comment from one of my interviews with the NGC about the lack of written regulations in Nevada:

What is curious is that the New Jersey regulations do not include the definition of a valid throw that was given to me by Nevada regulators which says the dice must fly in the air, bounce off the table surface and hit the back wall. Also, the New Jersey regulations make no mention of dice sliding. And there is no mention of setting, controlled shooting, or dice hitting the back wall but failing to bounce off the back wall.

Now, of course, you want to know what the Nevada regulations are and you'd like to see them on the website of the Nevada gaming regulators. Well, so do I. But when I phoned the Enforcement Division of the Nevada Gaming Commission, Theresa Zellhoefer of the Encorcement Division told me that "Nevada operates differently" than New Jersey and Nevada does not publish specific rules or regulations for the game of craps. "We established minimum controls," she told me, and the casinos have to meet those minimums and they can exceed them, "and then we say okay."

Well, while this is surprising it still does not change what the NGC has said before about what is a valid roll and what isn't. But if you are expecting to find it in black and white or on a web page -- you won't.

That article appeared on my website on Oct 27, 2011 and the article is on this page: http://www.alanbestbuys.com/id139.html

Now, after you argue with the table crew that just swept away your $10,000 from the passline because the regulations are not in writing, why don't you also bring up the subject of short rolls? I think it would make an interesting conversation as they show you to the door.

Are loaded dice legal? Ah, it gives player an advantage ? Who cares, it's casino money ,

Quote: Dicenor33

Are loaded dice legal? Ah, it gives player an advantage ? Who cares, it's casino money ,

No they aren't. But superrick might say that because they are not in printed regulations of the NGC they should be. LOL

Casinos have only one law:you must loose everything we do is to make you loose , we say it openly you will loose . We have every right in the world ,if you disagree , don't come here ,go somewhere else .

Quote: AlanMendelson

No they aren't. But superrick might say that because they are not in printed regulations of the NGC they should be. LOL

Yeah, Nevada is terribly poor on table game regulation compared to New Jersey/Pennsylvania (which mostly copied NJ)/and some other states. But if New Jersey says a "no roll" is acceptable if both dice don't hit consistently on the back wall, then you better well believe that the NGC will rule in the same manner, whether it is explicitly in the regulations or not. If Nevada paid me appropriately, I could write another 200 pages of legislation that should be there; a lot of it copying from New Jersey for table games, or fully adopting GLI standards for slot machines/video poker.

Quote: petroglyph

I've been told at the table that they can call a no roll or a yes roll whenever they want, if I'm not happy with their call that I don't have to play there.

I suspect that "they" are wrong, at least potentially.

Envision this scenario:

A big bettor is playing craps, playing DC, max bet, max odds, and he's on all the numbers, hoping for a massive payday.

He's got over $100K in action on the felt.

Shooter makes a normal roll of the dice: not a mortar shot, not a slide, both dice hit the table, bounce off the pyramids on the back wall and come to rest on the felt (not in the bowl, not on the dealer's chips).

A seven is rolled.

"No roll" says the stick.

OK, now in that instance, where a seven clearly was the result of a normal throw, do you still maintain that the bettor who would have won has no recourse to challenge the call?

Say he makes a big deal of it; the floor comes in, then the pit boss: assume that they back the stick's call of "No roll," when a review of the tape shows it was clearly a normal, presumptively valid roll.

Big bettor is pissed.

He colors up, leaves, and immediately calls his golf buddy, a very competent attorney.

"Sic 'em," growls the rich guy, "and to hell with the cost."

OK, given the above hypothetical: do you still believe the guy will lose the argument about the "No roll?"

This has gone really far off topic. You can be banned for dice control in Vegas. It has happened to me at South Point. All the other talk is pretty much just that: talk.

Dice control exists when you roll short. Anyone who thinks the previous sentence is false is in denial. That's the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.

I love every bit of American casino and the last thing I want is to loose a privilege to visit one . In my case it works as a shrink and instead of spending 100's it costs me nothing .

Alan M

While we are on the subject, here is the law in Indiana, you see that some states wanted to protect their players from the casinos that, will change their rules on a whim, if the shooter is winning.

Check out:

(10) If the shooter does not make a good faith attempt to bounce the dice off the backboard and the dice are not thrown at least one-half (½) the length of the craps table.

Here is the thing, all DI's are taught to hit the back wall, none of them ever want to miss it, go take a class, I think it would help you out, with your game. Maybe you would be losing less money when you come to Vegas. The one thing I tell anybody that is going to spend the money on a craps lesson, is to make sure the school you go to teaches good betting strategies, and does not allow a bunch of fiction on their craps board.

If you of you're dice hits the back wall, and the other one hits a chip and stops, you made a good faith attempt to hit the back wall!

It's just BS the way NV casinos enforce a rule they just made up on a whim, because the shooter is winning! While it's common knowledge that the casinos want you to hit the back wall, there is a very big difference between a law and a rule that is not enforced unless the shooter is winning, and he misses the back wall with one die, one time, and the overzealous boxman or suit takes the dice off the shooter!

If Joe Blow, that is slinging the dice down the table gets away with missing the back wall by 3 ft then the guy that is setting the dice should have no problem missing it with one of his dice when it hit something and stopped.

The law here in NV has been argued many times on the different craps boards, every self proclaimed expert, has just like you, said you can read it in NV gaming board rules, and just like you, they were all wrong, there is no law or rule that the state of NV has, that says you have to hit the back wall with your dice.

There is no reason for anybody to play craps in a casino that sweats the money, to the point of using a whim type rule to take the dice off a shooter. There are plenty of times that I will miss the back wall, when I'm shooting, but they are never on purpose! In a decent casino, they won't say a thing, is a sweat joint they will take the dice off anybody that is on a roll, by using a rule of hitting the back wall.

Craps Rules vs. Laws

A basic "rule" of craps is that both dice must hit the back wall ..... However, there is no such law or regulation in Nevada similar to the one in Indiana - below is a page from the regulations for Indiana:

68 IAC 10-4-4 Proper and invalid rolls of dice

Authority: IC 4-33-4-1; IC 4-33-4-2; IC 4-33-4-3
Affected: IC 4-33

Sec. 4. (a) The shooter shall throw the two (2) selected dice to the far end of the table for the purpose of bouncing the dice off the backboard of the craps table. The shooter must make a good faith attempt to bounce the dice off the backboard of the craps table.

(b) A roll of the dice shall be deemed invalid if one (1) of the following occurs:

(1) One (1) or both of the dice go off of the craps table. (2) If more than two (2) dice are thrown.

(c) The stickperson may declare the following rolls invalid:

(1) If one (1) of the die comes to rest on top of the other die.

(2) If a patron other than the shooter throws the dice.

(3) If the dice do not leave the shooter's hand simultaneously.

(4) If one (1) or both dice come to rest in the dice bowl.

(5) If one (1) or both dice come to rest on the rail of the craps table.

(6) If the shooter has not placed a pass bet or don't pass bet.

(7) If the shooter throws the dice in the wrong direction on the craps table.

(8.) If the shooter slides the dice across the table so that one (1) or both of the dice do not roll or tumble.

(9) If one (1) or both dice do not fall flat on the craps table, but rest on the chips or tokens stacked on the craps table.

(10) If the shooter does not make a good faith attempt to bounce the dice off the backboard and the dice are not thrown at least one-half (½) the length of the craps table.

(11) If the dice come to rest in a manner that it cannot be determined which face of the die is uppermost. The stickperson's declaration of an invalid roll may be overturned in accordance with section 5 of this rule.

Alan M If you are a self proclaimed expert, please don't quote hearsay, find the rules or the laws and give everybody the right information that they came to this site to find, hearsay is just BS!

In one of your little stories, you have posted before, the casino had no problem with you, until you made three or four shots that just rolled up to the back wall and stopped, that is when you became a threat to whoever started to give you a problem, in their little pea brain mind, you were going to steal the chips off them!

...

Quote: MrV

I suspect that "they" are wrong, at least potentially.

Envision this scenario:

A big bettor is playing craps, playing DC, max bet, max odds, and he's on all the numbers, hoping for a massive payday.

He's got over $100K in action on the felt.

Shooter makes a normal roll of the dice: not a mortar shot, not a slide, both dice hit the table, bounce off the pyramids on the back wall and come to rest on the felt (not in the bowl, not on the dealer's chips).

A seven is rolled.

"No roll" says the stick.

OK, now in that instance, where a seven clearly was the result of a normal throw, do you still maintain that the bettor who would have won has no recourse to challenge the call?

Say he makes a big deal of it; the floor comes in, then the pit boss: assume that they back the stick's call of "No roll," when a review of the tape shows it was clearly a normal, presumptively valid roll.

Big bettor is pissed.

He colors up, leaves, and immediately calls his golf buddy, a very competent attorney.

"Sic 'em," growls the rich guy, "and to hell with the cost."

OK, given the above hypothetical: do you still believe the guy will lose the argument about the "No roll?"

My beliefs within the parameters of the above well written hypothetical, it appears that this high roller may be able to afford justice.

Quote: superrick

The law here in NV has been argued many times on the different craps boards, every self proclaimed expert, has just like you, said you can read it in NV gaming board rules, and just like you, they were all wrong, there is no law or rule that the state of NV has, that says you have to hit the back wall with your dice.

I really don't understand what you are trying to prove?

I made it clear about two years ago that the "rule" was not written in Nevada, yet the rule exists and the NGC recognizes the rule. Go look at my website article again.

But are you trying to argue that unless it is a written law, published and legislated, that the rule is arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable?
Come on superrick. You don't have to be a math major or a brain surgeon -- or an attorney -- to play craps, to understand the rules, and to run a game. This discussion about "legality" of short rolls has gone off the end of the silly scale.

Everybody knows how to play the game which is pretty much what the NGC said. Those of you who want everything in writing down to the letter are probably the same people who required car makers to have bumpers to withstand impact of 1.5-MPH without damage. Heck, if you can't avoid an accident driving at under 1.5-miles per hour you shouldn't be driving.

And if you can't understand or follow the basic rules of craps you shouldn't be playing craps.

Quote: Ahigh

Then your posts are not legal.

Now that's the Ahigh everybody loves !

Quote:

Ahigh
This has gone really far off topic. You can be banned for dice control in Vegas. It has happened to me at South Point. All the other talk is pretty much just that: talk.

Dice control exists when you roll short. Anyone who thinks the previous sentence is false is in denial. That's the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Well Ahigh if you think that you can make a shot that you have control over, that flies through the air, then hitting the felt, from four foot away, please show it in slow-motion. Even with a short roll that does not hit the back wall, your dice are not staying on axis, unless you are doing a blanket roll, where the dice rolls 6 inches from your hand, you may get them to stay on axis for about one foot.

Everything that was written years ago does not pertain to now days where you have felt on the tables, and the diamonds to make the dice random. All the shots that guys like Scarne wrote about were on tables that didn't have felt, go back and reread about them. They were done on blankets, on tables without any covering.

The shots that were described in his book were used on surfaces in bars, blankets on bunks, table tops, and any hard surface where the dice could spin or slide. Read page 268 in his book.
Scarne's books were written to warn servicemen about how they could be cheated, and what he wrote has been taking out of context for years!

On page 254 of his book he made the statement that fair dice could be controlled, and all the schools that sell becoming a DI jumped all over that statement, here you had a famous author writing that dice could be controlled, but what the craps schools failed to tell their students, was when he made that statement, he was talking about rolling the dice a few inches.

Our fiction writers on the game of craps have done such a good job of convincing everybody in the craps playing world, that they can control the dice that even the casinos believe it!

So Ahigh with all your camera equipment and your skills, please show us that controlled shot you are talking about, in slow-motion!


...

Quote: Ahigh

This has gone really far off topic. You can be banned for dice control in Vegas. It has happened to me at South Point. All the other talk is pretty much just that: talk.

Dice control exists when you roll short. Anyone who thinks the previous sentence is false is in denial. That's the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Ahigh do you feel you would have a big advantage if they let you short roll (within reason of course)if so how much of an advantage? Or do you know someone that believes they have far better results on short rolls? Any data? unlike others I would count short rolls as a part of DI as long as the casino will let you get away with it a few times hear and there.You only need a few times per casino with large bets in order to make a ton of cash. I'm skeptical that anyone can do it.

Quote: superrick

Quote:

Ahigh
This has gone really far off topic. You can be banned for dice control in Vegas. It has happened to me at South Point. All the other talk is pretty much just that: talk.

Dice control exists when you roll short. Anyone who thinks the previous sentence is false is in denial. That's the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Well Ahigh if you think that you can make a shot that you have control over, that flies through the air, then hitting the felt, from four foot away, please show it in slow-motion. Even with a short roll that does not hit the back wall, your dice are not staying on axis, unless you are doing a blanket roll, where the dice rolls 6 inches from your hand, you may get them to stay on axis for about one foot.

Everything that was written years ago does not pertain to now days where you have felt on the tables, and the diamonds to make the dice random. All the shots that guys like Scarne wrote about were on tables that didn't have felt, go back and reread about them. They were done on blankets, on tables without any covering.

The shots that were described in his book were used on surfaces in bars, blankets on bunks, table tops, and any hard surface where the dice could spin or slide. Read page 268 in his book.
Scarne's books were written to warn servicemen about how they could be cheated, and what he wrote has been taking out of context for years!

On page 254 of his book he made the statement that fair dice could be controlled, and all the schools that sell becoming a DI jumped all over that statement, here you had a famous author writing that dice could be controlled, but what the craps schools failed to tell their students, was when he made that statement, he was talking about rolling the dice a few inches.

Our fiction writers on the game of craps have done such a good job of convincing everybody in the craps playing world, that they can control the dice that even the casinos believe it!

So Ahigh with all your camera equipment and your skills, please show us that controlled shot you are talking about, in slow-motion!


...

He can't. I've seen hundreds of his rolls on video when he was first claiming he could set for a hard number and hit it. Absolutely no control. Dice hit the back wall and bounce randomly in separate directions. Every shot the same. End of story.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

He can't. I've seen hundreds of his rolls on video when he was first claiming he could set for a hard number and hit it. Absolutely no control. Dice hit the back wall and bounce randomly in separate directions. Every shot the same. End of story.

ZCore13

You can't tell by looking if the results are uncorrelated to the starting set. You just can't.

You -can- indeed tell there's no nice on-axis throw as per the likes of Golden Touch. Ahigh's claim was that the bounce and settle ended up in much the same spot each time. That you can't look at a bunch of throws and say 'oh it's all random'. You have to analyze the data. I suspect you'll find the same conclusion, but I'd trust the analysis more than a visual guess. Random is very hard to tell.

Simple question for Ahigh and everyone else:

Is Ahigh telling us that his dice that are thrown off axis, and reach the table at different elevations, and hit at different spots on the table, and then roll and bounce different amounts once they hit the table are controlled throws and they are designed to do that to accomplish his various hardway results?

While I wait for your answers let me just say this. If so, that these "throws" are indeed controlled and designed to do that, then that's quite a skill he has.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Simple question for Ahigh and everyone else:

Is Ahigh telling us that his dice that are thrown off axis, and reach the table at different elevations, and hit at different spots on the table, and then roll and bounce different amounts once they hit the table are controlled throws and they are designed to do that to accomplish his various hardway results?

While I wait for your answers let me just say this. If so, that these "throws" are indeed controlled and designed to do that, then that's quite a skill he has.

Alan, we all know he has no "controlled shot" and no casino is afraid of him. My theory is that casinos that ask him to not come back are for how he acts. I assume that from reading his posts. And anyone off the street that would come to this forum and just read a few of his posts over the times that he has not been banned from here would see that he is full of shit when it comes to controlled shots and his craps skills. Now I am not saying he is full of shit, but I am saying someone 'could" make that assumption easily.

But as long as we are discussing him, he is happy. Or at least he is happy half the time.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Simple question for Ahigh and everyone else:

Is Ahigh telling us that his dice that are thrown off axis, and reach the table at different elevations, and hit at different spots on the table, and then roll and bounce different amounts once they hit the table are controlled throws and they are designed to do that to accomplish his various hardway results?

While I wait for your answers let me just say this. If so, that these "throws" are indeed controlled and designed to do that, then that's quite a skill he has.

What I am saying that all that matters is a provable correlation, not that you can tell the source of the correlation by observing the throw.

Naturally, I'd assume that you could tell one from the other, but A does not require B. That's all.

It seems that house figured out of how to beat DI's . I don't see them to care when DI is at the table . They must collect enough data to come to meaningful conclusion .

Quote: thecesspit

What I am saying that all that matters is a provable correlation, not that you can tell the source of the correlation by observing the throw.

Naturally, I'd assume that you could tell one from the other, but A does not require B. That's all.

I don't follow, thecesspit. Are you saying that the results prove a controlled throw even if it does not appear to be a controlled throw?

This is really the essence of the entire debate about Ahigh's claimed skills.

Is his seemingly random shoot actualy a planned, controlled, deliberate shot that is artfully thrown to result in hardways or whatever else he is claiming?

Now, I fully admit that I have a preconceived definition of what a controlled throw is which I have talked about in detail here before. But having an open mind if someone can show me that Ahigh's shot is indeed "controlled, planned, structured, designed" and otherwise intentional and destined to result in a hardway or "pre determined number" I will be impressed.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I don't follow, thecesspit. Are you saying that the results prove a controlled throw even if it does not appear to be a controlled throw?

Nope. I am saying that only the results matter... the human brain can't perfectly tell if something is random or just the appearance off.

Quote:

Is his seemingly random shoot actualy a planned, controlled, deliberate shot that is artfully thrown to result in hardways or whatever else he is claiming?

I am saying it is possible that his seemingly random shot has a correlation between the start and end point. Nothing about planned, artful or even deliberate :)

Quote:

Now, I fully admit that I have a preconceived definition of what a controlled throw is which I have talked about in detail here before. But having an open mind if someone can show me that Ahigh's shot is indeed "controlled, planned, structured, designed" and otherwise intentional and destined to result in a hardway or "pre determined number" I will be impressed.

I am not saying his throw would be destined to result in a hardway. I am saying it is possible that his (or someone elses) throw can be analyzed and it could be shown that they are more like to hit certain numbers than you would expect by chance. I agree it's improbable that a throw that isn't obviously controlled would result in the same thing each time.

To me that's the truest test of Dice Influencing available. It takes the subjective out of the test.

Personally, I don't believe that AHigh has a throw I describe from the data provided, or better put, it's highly likely from the data it is as random as anyone else. But I haven't bothered to drill into the data far enough to be able to stand by that statement, and I don't think there's enough data to be more than saying that is what my feeling is and being provable wrong (or right).

The original poster F.S. can sure start an emotional thread eh?

OT can a person be ousted for dice control?

Since there is no such thing as dice control I wonder, is this a trick question?

Mr. Mendelson, you have posted in the past about witnessing dc and your definition of what that is. Also I think you said you were disallowed from continuing to play after hitting several 9's in a row. Maybe you are a dc and don't know it? Is there such a thing as a closet di?

What I don't get is on any craps thread whether Ahigh is banned or not why does the topic always get twisted around to him?

When he is banned though the craps topics and discussion drop to zilch.

There are so few who will take the bait. Some people here need to practice "catch and release", the fishes are endangered.

Quote: petroglyph

Mr. Mendelson, you have posted in the past about witnessing dc and your definition of what that is. Also I think you said you were disallowed from continuing to play after hitting several 9's in a row. Maybe you are a dc and don't know it? Is there such a thing as a closet di?

What I witnessed were two players who threw what appeared to be controlled shots: slow even rolls, that remained on axis and lightly hit the back wall with a minimal bounce back. But in both cases neither had rolls that lasted longer than what I have also seen with random rollers. In one case (the "mystery shooter") the roll lasted about 20 - 25 minutes. With the surgeon it lasted about 10-15 minutes but on several "hands" or turns with the dice.

What happened to me was an accident or a freak of nature. I never claimed to have any skill or ability and I certainly have lost a lot of money playing craps so I won't ever claim any skill or ability to control or influence dice.

I've spent some more time researching Nevada law. The Skipper case I referenced before appears to be the best authority on the Nevada law of dice manipulation as it pertains to Craps.

Skipper can be read at the following:


I think that intentional failure to tumble and strike the back wall can be considered unlawful cheating in Nevada.

The casino can choose to pay or "no roll" a short throw, and as a practical matter you would really have to go out of your way to get criminally prosecuted.

Quote: Avenger803

Skipper can be read at the following:http://www.leagle.com/decision/19941611879P2d732_11607

Thanks for the cite.

Quote: Zcore13

He can't. I've seen hundreds of his rolls on video when he was first claiming he could set for a hard number and hit it. Absolutely no control. Dice hit the back wall and bounce randomly in separate directions. Every shot the same. End of story.

Your writing conveys certainty that is a symptom of your malleable belief system.

http://forum.goodshooter.com/topic265.html

You can click to enlarge each image that is a 16.66ms exposure. The right die (on initial impact) comes up short and stays on axis.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I really don't understand what you are trying to prove?

I made it clear about two years ago that the "rule" was not written in Nevada, yet the rule exists and the NGC recognizes the rule. Go look at my website article again.

But are you trying to argue that unless it is a written law, published and legislated, that the rule is arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable?
Come on superrick. You don't have to be a math major or a brain surgeon -- or an attorney -- to play craps, to understand the rules, and to run a game. This discussion about "legality" of short rolls has gone off the end of the silly scale.

Everybody knows how to play the game which is pretty much what the NGC said. Those of you who want everything in writing down to the letter are probably the same people who required car makers to have bumpers to withstand impact of 1.5-MPH without damage. Heck, if you can't avoid an accident driving at under 1.5-miles per hour you shouldn't be driving.

And if you can't understand or follow the basic rules of craps you shouldn't be playing craps.

right on the money, great post.

Quote: ontariodealer

right on the money, great post.

Alan's posts are vague. If his posts are on any money at all, it's the money generated from advertising revenue generated from all the controversy related to his vague, lame, and unskillfully constructed attempts at making a point.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I really don't understand what you are trying to prove?

He's a journalist. And his the first line of his post is a statement with a question mark at the end. I dated a journalism major at Texas A&M. Part of her studies (for school) involved proofreading the newspaper and correcting all of the mistakes made in the articles. She found mistakes (in "The Battalion") that I would never have found. It left me scratching my head that she was so talented at finding mistakes that most would never even see.

Alan's writings, however, don't really even seem to come from someone with any regard for typographical errors, much less journalistic integrity.

It leaves me scratching my head in a different way.

Quote: Ahigh

Your writing conveys certainty that is a symptom of your malleable belief system.

http://forum.goodshooter.com/topic265.html

You can click to enlarge each image that is a 16.66ms exposure. The right die (on initial impact) comes up short and stays on axis.

As discussed way too many times to even count, it is not a legal shot to not hit the back wall. Although you MIGHT get away with it once (or twice at the very most), a non-legal throw can not be considered as influencing the dice since the goal of DI is to get past the house advantage and win consistently.

Are you claiming the shot referenced is something you could do at a casino regularly and get away with it? Getting away with it once is not DI to me. The goal can't possibly be to see if you can do it once??? It will get you banned from shooting at every casino and then what do you have?

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

As discussed way too many times to even count, it is not a legal shot to not hit the back wall. Although you MIGHT get away with it once (or twice at the very most), a non-legal throw can not be considered as influencing the dice since the goal of DI is to get past the house advantage and win consistently.

Your lack of factual content in your response is characteristic of your posts. A fraction of ALL throws in the casino for ALL craps tables in the state of Nevada are short rolls. As a general rule, ALL short rolls are paid and all short rolls in the state of Nevada are legal. If there are short rolls that are not paid, it is the exception, not the rule. This is fact. This is true this is accurate. You don't live in Nevada and the casino where you work doesn't have a craps table at all, so I can understand how you are very detached from this reality which I observe on a daily basis for several hours every day.

The fraction of rolls that come up short for an AVERAGE shooter in the state of Nevada is unknown as an exact figure since Nevada gaming regulations don't keep track of this number. I would estimate this fraction to be between 1/80 and and 1/8. That's a huge range, but that is my personal estimate. If it was not within this range, I would be very surprised. But given that range which I believe is a good estimate, it is believed to be that most short rolls are just the result of random chance and not the result of someone attempting to obtain an advantage. That is why they are generally paid.

Quote: Zcore13

Are you claiming the shot referenced is something you could do at a casino regularly and get away with it? Getting away with it once is not DI to me. The goal can't possibly be to see if you can do it once??? It will get you banned from shooting at every casino and then what do you have?

Are you attempting to change the subject of this thread? Let's go back to the post topic. The topic is "can you be banned for shooting dice?" The answer is yes. The evidence that I provide is evidence for how a player advantage can be obtained with a short roll. Casinos that actually have craps tables in them are aware of the fact that short rolls can be advantage rolls and that is why they say "all the way down both dice every roll." If you short roll and you attempt to obtain a player advantage with a short roll you will be banned.

The end. That is all. I don't know what you're ranting on and on about except that I provided evidence that proved your statement was false.

I would also like to remind you that your name is displayed to the left of your post. It is not necessary to put your name at the end of each post.

Quote: Ahigh

Casinos that actually have craps tables in them are aware of the fact that short rolls can be advantage rolls and that is why they say "all the way down both dice every roll." If you short roll and you attempt to obtain a player advantage with a short roll you will be banned.

The end. That is all. I don't know what you're ranting on and on about except that I provided evidence that proved your statement was false.

I like how you've added a new word to your vocabulary now that you've worn out "wrong" and "lying". Now everything is false?

The original question is "Can you be banned for dice control? Have Casinos done this?"

The answer is:

Dice control in a way that can beat the house is a myth. You can't get away with it short rolling. You can't get away with it sliding. And you have never shown even one shot hitting the back wall that could even be considered anything but randomness once it hits the back wall.



ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

I like how you've added a new word to your vocabulary now that you've worn out "wrong" and "lying". Now everything is false?

The original question is "Can you be banned for dice control? Have Casinos done this?"

The answer is:

Dice control in a way that can beat the house is a myth. You can't get away with it short rolling. You can't get away with it sliding. And you have never shown even one shot hitting the back wall that could even be considered anything but randomness once it hits the back wall.

Your very poor grasp of basic logic is appalling. The statement "everything is false" is an obviously false statement. False statements are false. And true statements are true. Both of the preceding statements are tautologies.

The statement "everything is false" is a poorly constructed argument, very much like a large portion of everything that you write.

Your statement, "Dice control in a way that can beat the house is a myth" is also a false statement. If it were not, there would be no concern for hitting the back wall. Your statement is proven to be false through a simple RAA proof; one that could easily be expanded in its entirety by anyone proficient with constructing such proofs.

The reason you are so sensitive to my pointing out your false statements, lies, or being wrong, is because you are often the target of such assessments on my part as a result of your making so many false statements. And not just almost believable false statements, but what I would consider to be obviously false blanket statements. The kind of statements that a teenager with no logical reasoning skills would make.

Quote: Avenger803

I've spent some more time researching Nevada law. The Skipper case I referenced before appears to be the best authority on the Nevada law of dice manipulation as it pertains to Craps.

Skipper can be read at the following:

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19941611879P2d732_11607

I think that intentional failure to tumble and strike the back wall can be considered unlawful cheating in Nevada.

The casino can choose to pay or "no roll" a short throw, and as a practical matter you would really have to go out of your way to get criminally prosecuted.

Here's the problem with the holding in Skipper. First, the Court says (quoting Sheriff v. Martin):
"The attributes of the game — its established physical characteristics and basic rules — determine the probabilities of the game's various possible outcomes. Changing those attributes to affect those probabilities is a criminal act."

but then elsewhere in Martin, the Court requires deceit in order to find cheating:
"Thus, if a player or dealer deceitfully alters the identifying characteristics or attributes of a game with the intent to deprive another of money or property by affecting the otherwise established probabilities of the game's various outcomes, he or she is guilty of cheating within the meaning of NRS 465.015 and NRS 465.083."

and from later in the Skipper opinion:
"a dice slider uses a methodology of play that is based upon a purposefully orchestrated combination of factors designed to change the nature of play through affirmative acts of cheating and deception. For example, as noted above, Skipper utilized an accomplice to obscure the dealer's vision of the table while Skipper purposely engaged in sliding the dice."
...
"a surreptitious manipulation of the dice contrary to the rules of the game, in order to alter its outcome, constitutes an act of cheating"

So, with the exception of the initial quote from Martin, the Skipper holding requires "affirmative acts of cheating and deception", which is somewhat self-referential, but I think the point is that deceitfully sliding the dice is cheating. That begs the question:

Is overtly sliding the dice cheating, as hinted at by the first quote from Martin?

If so, and given that:
a) both sliding and other forms of controlled throwing are just different methods to accomplish the same goal, and the Court makes no distinction between techniques for altering dice probabilities,
b) if influencing the dice (changing the probabilities) is cheating, then attempting to influence the dice is attempted cheating, and
c) both cheating and attempted cheating are Category B felonies (see NRS 465.088(2)),
then we can conclude that everyone who attempts a controlled throw at a Nevada craps game is a criminal.

Because that's such an obviously ridiculous outcome, the only sensible conclusion is that throwing the dice in any fashion is legal as long as the casino has the opportunity to nullify the roll if they don't like it. What was illegal in Skipper was the deceit -- the intentional concealment of the throw -- and not just the act of sliding itself.

That's my analysis, anyway. I'd be happy to hear contrary opinions or alternate theories. I asked the Clark County DA after the Wynn incident and never got a response.

Quote: Ahigh

Your very poor grasp of basic logic is appalling. The statement "everything is false" is an obviously false statement. False statements are false. And true statements are true. Both of the preceding statements are tautologies.

The statement "everything is false" is a poorly constructed argument, very much like a large portion of everything that you write.

Your statement, "Dice control in a way that can beat the house is a myth" is also a false statement. If it were not, there would be no concern for hitting the back wall. Your statement is proven to be false through a simple RAA proof; one that could easily be expanded in its entirety by anyone proficient with constructing such proofs.

The reason you are so sensitive to my pointing out your false statements, lies, or being wrong, is because you are often the target of such assessments on my part as a result of your making so many false statements. And not just almost believable false statements, but what I would consider to be obviously false blanket statements. The kind of statements that a teenager with no logical reasoning skills would make.

It's pointless to discuss this any longer. Something is wrong with you.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

It's pointless to discuss this any longer. Something is wrong with you.

I'm impressed. Two factual statements! That is progress. Now if only you could refrain from putting your name at the end of your posts.

Quote: Ahigh

I'm impressed. Two factual statements! That is progress. Now if only you could refrain from putting your name at the end of your posts.

I copied this quote, only to preserve the comments made:

1. Ahigh is impressed by the post of someone else.
2. Ahigh agrees that factual statements were made including the statement "Something is wrong with you."
3. Ahigh is troubled that Zcore also signs his posts. Unusual.