Can You Be Banned for Dice Control? Have Casinos Done This?
The casino can call "no roll" before resolution of the final die for absolutely any reason.
Common reasons include:
1) Bouncing off a patron seen to "move" or otherwise potentially affect the state of the dice before resolution
2) One or more die not travelling at least past the mid-way portion of the table (so short that one or more die doesn't get more than halfway down the table)
3) Die lands somewhere besides the felt or on top of a chip or the puck (EG: the rail, the bank, a customer's hand, shirt, between boobs, etc).
4) Die lands in the bank or is touching multiple stacks of chips or a stack of chips and the mirror near the stick man in a way that the resolution is not obvious
As a general rule, when there is a question as to the resolution, the casino often resolves the dice in a way that is favorable to the player, especially when the financial consequences are not extreme. This is just to keep the patrons happy as these circumstances do not happen often.
Legal rolls, in general, are rolls where the house announces the resolution and both dice travel past the mid-way portion of the table and the player has not already been warned about short rolls. A player who has been warned about short rolls may have a roll called a no roll even though both dice pass the halfway point of the felt providing a resolution has not already been determined when the no roll is called. This is proper procedure for a player not properly responding to the house rules for the throwing of the dice. As a general rule, all players are allowed to make a reasonable number of short rolls under the assumption that they are not doing it on purpose. Once that assumption can no longer be reasonably considered reasonable, the pit crew generally will call a no roll on the last offending roll before taking the dice and passing them to the next shooter.
I could not disagree with you more...
a good DI will get and shoot the dice in 7-8 seconds or less, many, and i do mean many
shooters take far far longer to do what ever it is they do and they then throw every other
roll off the table, off the chip stacks , argue about payments and where the hell they had their
bets because they cant remember.
When i am hasseled about setting the dice it is not because i am slow, it is because they
are looking for a reason to give you crap because your roll may well look decent.
If they really cared about speed, they would treat the none setter just like they say
they want to treat the DI.
dicesetter
I wasn't.
'Twas a gratutious acknowledgement that we are all in this gambling mess together.
As for my photo: I did not take it, I did not post it.
Tom asked if he could take it, and post it, and I happily agreed.
What, me worry?
But it is a far cry from Aaron posting a vid of his wife behind the craps table in their home, doing kitchen work, or a youtube video showing him driving the freeway, chatting and interacting playfully with his kids.
Which is fine: go right ahead, but don't be surprised if you get called on it.
Hey, wait a minute: look close at the logo on my shirt. It says "Jackpot Club: Spirit Mountain Casino."
That's all I'll give you, and it's all you need to know.
That's too much private information about me.
Quote: MrV
That's too much private information about me.
Certainly more than I needed to know. I wish you
would have kept it to yourself.
Quote: thecesspitI'm pretty sure saying 'we are all bozos on this bus' is a general implied comment about us all. Not about you.
That's the way I read it, too.
Quote: EvenBobCertainly more than I needed to know. I wish you
would have kept it to yourself.
Dammit Bob, I didn't need to know you didn't need to know about MrV. Really, you could have kept that all under cover as well, but you just had to blab it out and 'share' your 'feelings' with us all.
Really. I mean.
Quote: thecesspitbut you just had to blab it out and 'share' your 'feelings' with us all.
And with that I'm crawling back into my shell.
Whew, that was close.
Quote: AhighTo the best of my knowledge, a short roll is a legal roll.
No it't not legal or acceptable but you might get away with it... and often all of us get away with a short roll. But I challenge you to find one casino or one gaming authority who will say that all short rolls are "legal".
Just one. (Like your controlled shot... just one.)
Quote: AlanMendelsonNo it't not legal or acceptable but you might get away with it... and often all of us get away with a short roll. But I challenge you to find one casino or one gaming authority who will say that all short rolls are "legal".
Just one. (Like your controlled shot... just one.)
Yeah, being a craps newb I was sternly warned for "short rolls" very quickly, adding to the intimidation of playing craps as a new player, but they did count (it was pretty obvious I was a newb). If I consistently rolled that way though, they probably would be called "no rolls".
Quote: AlanMendelsonNo it't not legal or acceptable but you might get away with it...
This whole discussion about short rolls is ludicrous. It's like
people who believe rolling stops are OK at stop signs as long as
they look both ways first. You may get away with it if a cop see's
you, but most of the time not.
Ahigh keeps sying 'the rules of Vegas', like it's different somewhere
else. It's not! No casino on earth allows a short roll on every spin,
quit acting like Vegas is unique. You can't do it, who cares if you
can make dice do card tricks on short roll. It's not allowed!
They are either legal (and therefore honored with payment) or they are not.
Again, these are terms, here. Legal referring to law. And "rules" referring to what they will allow you to do if you want to continue your play.
Even one short roll that gets paid is a legal throw. Whether it's against the house rules or not, you guys saying it's against the law to get paid on a short roll are simply wrong. The percentage of all throws in the casino that come up short is more than 1%. Half the reason for that is the randomness of how dice bounce. It's reality.
Sometimes the dice hit the felt and bounce directly back towards the shooter!
And I will tell you if I could arrange that any roll that didn't hit the back wall would be called a no-roll, I would LOVE it.
But they are legal, you guys. Sorry! Against the house rules? Absolutely in every casino I know? Legal, absolutely as well.
Being allowed to calls shorties a "no roll" is a right of the casino, not a law of the state (that they must).
But to get back on topic, if you short roll, you are more likely to be banned from shooting than if you don't. The only place that has banned me from shooting cited short rolls as the reason (South Point).
South Point paid me for hitting a $210 eight on a short roll before I got banned from shooting. That was the last warning I received. The next short roll was a seven-out on a $5 pass line bet, and it was my last toss before I was told I could no longer shoot in that casino.
There is a thread topic, just to remind you guys.
after the spin sometimes, so what. Try it on every third spin and you won't be allowed to
play much longer.
Quote: MrVwe're all Bozos on this bus.
I prefer; "Don't crush that Dwarf, hand me the pliers"
Quote: BozSo if trying to get away with short rolls is all the DCers have, then I believe we all can agree that they have nothing.
And if the world is full of people who make arguments only as well as you do, we are going to die.
What's up with you?
Must you be "right" on everything?
You are WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.
Deal with it.
The casino has the OPTION to disallow and not pay the roller of the short roll; heck, they can ban him/her if they wish, that is their prerogative.
But the shooter faces zero threat of arrest and successful criminal prosecution for executing a short roll.
They are not illegal, per se, merely frowned upon.
Quote: AlanMendelsonAhigh why are you trying to defend the legitimacy or legality or acceptability of short rolls? You have been told by everyone on this forum -- and probably at every casino you've ever played at -- that short rolls are not acceptable. Yet, you continue this campaign of yours about their "legality" because you will get paid on them from time to time?
What's up with you?
Must you be "right" on everything?
You are WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.
Deal with it.
There's nothing to defend, and if anyone is wrong about it, it's not me. You can use whatever terms you want, but you cannot say that getting paid on short rolls is not part of the game. You can toss out the words and everything else, but if you want proof that DI exists, in the domain of short rolls GENERALLY EVERYONE IN PIT AGREES THAT IT EXISTS.
I think it is you who is failing to deal with reality.
Forget the wording; people get paid on short rolls. Short rolls can be advantage rolls. Therefore you can get paid on advantage rolls.
Very simple logic. Therefore it is proven that dice control exists for short rolls. I think even the Wizard of Vegas would agree with me on this one.
And I'm not wrong about it. I'm very certain.
If you want to argue about the words, we can argue about the words.
But the facts are there. The evidence is there. It is sufficiently proven. Legal or not, it is there and it has been there and those who wish to recognize it may.
Those who wish to say it is not worthy of discussion because this is in the domain of what is against the house rules are most certainly folks who, if they played the game normally in an acceptable way would have a few short rolls that nobody would care about. You can make it a point to hit the back wall 100% of the time, but that throw is not even a throw that the house would encourage you to perform.
I'm not sure why this rubs you the wrong way (your questions why must I be right, etc) but it is probably for a reason that you are in denial about one or more parts of this.
Quote: MrVShort rolls, i.e. rolls that are thrown, not slid, and merely do not reach the rear wall, are NOT "illegal."
The casino has the OPTION to disallow and not pay the roller of the short roll; heck, they can ban him/her if they wish, that is their prerogative.
But the shooter faces zero threat of arrest and successful criminal prosecution for executing a short roll.
They are not illegal, per se, merely frowned upon.
And I want to remind everyone that the point that MrV makes, which I agree with, is the only point relevant to this thread.
You can and will get banned for "dice control" or for "short rolls" or both if you do this.
It happened to me at the SouthPoint. So I know for a fact that it can happen.
Quote: AhighForget the wording; people get paid on short rolls. Short rolls can be advantage rolls. Therefore you can get paid on advantage rolls. Very simple logic. Therefore it is proven that dice control exists for short rolls. I think even the Wizard of Vegas would agree with me on this one.
So then, a DI should practice short rolling?
Wouldn't that lead to the quick extinction of the breed?
(Not that there would be anything wrong with that)
Quote: MrVSo then, a DI should practice short rolling?
Wouldn't that lead to the quick extinction of the breed?
(Not that there would be anything wrong with that)
There is no breed. They don't exist. I would put them in the same category of Bigfoot and the Lockness Monster, whatever that category might be.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13There is no breed. They don't exist.
They exist.
Let me rephrase that: people who CONSIDER themselves DIs exist.
Heck, they have their own message boards.
Then again, Christians and Muslims have spent thousands of years and untold dollars glorifying and edifying an unprovable idea as well.
What fools these mortals be.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13The simple answer is... if someone could successfully gain an advantage over the game and win consistently, would they publish it or sell the information in classes that cost a few hundred dollars?
ZCore13
Nobody's ever done that for any other casino game, have they?
Quote: wudgedNobody's ever done that for any other casino game, have they?
Not during the time it can be taken advantage of. Only after the fact.
ZCore13
Quote: AhighAnd if the world is full of people who make arguments only as well as you do, we are going to die.
Some would take that as an insult, me, seeing the source consider it a compliment. Keep the faith brother!
!"
Quote: Zcore13Not during the time it can be taken advantage of. Only after the fact.
Hello Thorp's "Beat the Dealer."
That came out when the game could be taken advantage of.
Heck, it told people it could be done and showed them how to do it.
Too bad the casino folks read the book as well.
Quote: Dicenor33Scoblete wrote his book during the electronic age . Not too many people understand mechanics now , but if he published it 40 years ago he will be laughed at every page of every gambling magazine . Dice rotates around finger tips , fly across the table ,hit table surface and pyramids and it maintain it's axis . Don't forget to say "abracadabra , dice stay in the axis"
!"[/q
Or he could have just said "Your wrong, I'm right...casinos fear my shot, I only lose when I bet on other shooters..I can't do my shot at that casino, change your lightbulbs...etc"
And he would still be laughed at. Oh wait someone else stated that and he IS being laughed at.
Quote: IbeatyouracesWith how casinos attitudes are towards any form of advantage play these days, I'd keep my mouth shut if I discovered something new.
I am very open with every single casino about my attempts to advantage play. Every single one of them. Fiesta has 86'd me, but not for my attempts at advantage play, I don't believe. And South Point will not let me shoot. Other than that, no casinos believe in advantage play for non-short rolls (I don't roll short) enough to disallow me from playing.
If I win too much money and continue being as open and honest about what I'm doing things could change. But just winning consistently while telling them what I am doing is not something that they are worried about, in general.
Of all the places that still allow me to play, the Wynn is the place that has the biggest problem with the way that I throw the dice right now today.
But, in general, most pit crews do not believe that control exists when you hit the back wall. They may be right! And they definitely aren't worried at all about it.
Quote:
AlanMendelson
No it't not legal or acceptable but you might get away with it... and often all of us get away with a short roll. But I challenge you to find one casino or one gaming authority who will say that all short rolls are "legal".
Alan if you don’t hit the back wall, it’s still a legal shot, There is nothing in NV state law that says anything about hitting the back wall. I’m not going to post the law, but anybody can go to the gaming board site and look up the law. I don’t care what anybody told you, they didn’t know what they were talking about!
NV has the worst laws about the game of craps, there is in the USA! The casinos make up their own rules about hitting the back wall, and it just BS, the way they do it. If you are setting the dice, they may say something to you, I’ve seen shooters never even make it pass the prop box, and they never said a thing to the shooter.
You can do us all a big favor, and post the laws for playing craps here in NV, that way you will be everybody’s hero, and they can read the law for themselves. I’m not going to waste my time posting it.
When you post it maybe you will understand, that a short roll is a legal roll. I don’t know how you reported the news, but where I came from it would be very unacceptable to write a story without reading the law, I would never take anybody’s word, for something that I was reporting on if I didn’t read it myself! What you are telling everybody is just hearsay!
Every shot that is made bounce all over the place any way, they do not stay on axis, like all the dice schools want everybody to believe. Look at Ahighs slow-motion videos! Or this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc
...
I question your claim.
Not that you would lie: spin, yes; lie, no.
We've had this argument before, and I would welcome any new evidence.
Why?Quote: AhighI am very open with every single casino about my attempts to advantage play.
Quote: SanchoPanzaWhy?
Because he loves attention and he thinks he's a somebody in the craps world. I can only imagine what they think when he announces himself and his website to them.
ZCore13
19:47-1.8 Throw of the dice
Upon selection of the dice, the shooter shall make a Pass or Don't Pass Bet after which he shall throw the two selected dice so that they leave his hand simultaneously and in a manner calculated to cause them to strike the end of the table farthest from him.
19:47-1.9 Invalid roll of the dice
(a) A roll of the dice shall be invalid whenever either or both of the dice go off the table or whenever one die comes to rest on top of the other.
(b) The persons listed in (e) below shall have the authority to invalidate a roll of the dice by calling "No Roll" for any of the following reasons:
1. The dice do not leave the shooter's hand simultaneously;
2. Either or both of the dice fail to strike an end of the table;
Now, about Nevada and Michigan, this comes from various interviews that I conducted with regulators including former Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, Keith Copher, and Theresa Zellhoefer of the Encorcement Division of the NGC:
Regulators from both Nevada and Michigan have told me that "dice control" and controlled shooting and dice setting are legal as long as the following conditions are met, and these conditions are vital for a legal throw:
1. The dice are tossed in the air, above the table surface, and
2. The dice bounce at least once on the table surface, and
3. The dice hit the back wall of the table, and
4. No artificial methods are used to limit the rolls of the dice or their movement including glues or paste.
In ALL cases "hitting the back wall" is included in the definition of a "legal throw," and I am sure that everyone will concede that "legal" means "accepted" as opposed to legislated.
Quote: MrVPlease cite to your source at NGC, Alan.
I question your claim.
Not that you would lie: spin, yes; lie, no.
We've had this argument before, and I would welcome any new evidence.
Mr V I posted info from three states. Now, if you disagree that hitting the back wall is not needed to meet a "legal throw" I want to see your evidence. As we all know, the rule is not strictly enforced -- but it is still the rule. Because the rule is not strictly enforced does not mean that the rule has changed.
Quote: AlanMendelsonSince it appears no one has called any of the gaming regulators, consider this please: Here are the regulations as published by New Jersey regulators.
19:47-1.8 Throw of the dice
Upon selection of the dice, the shooter shall make a Pass or Don't Pass Bet after which he shall throw the two selected dice so that they leave his hand simultaneously and in a manner calculated to cause them to strike the end of the table farthest from him.
19:47-1.9 Invalid roll of the dice
(a) A roll of the dice shall be invalid whenever either or both of the dice go off the table or whenever one die comes to rest on top of the other.
(b) The persons listed in (e) below shall have the authority to invalidate a roll of the dice by calling "No Roll" for any of the following reasons:
1. The dice do not leave the shooter's hand simultaneously;
2. Either or both of the dice fail to strike an end of the table;
Now, about Nevada and Michigan, this comes from various interviews that I conducted with regulators including former Chief of Enforcement of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, Keith Copher, and Theresa Zellhoefer of the Encorcement Division of the NGC:
Regulators from both Nevada and Michigan have told me that "dice control" and controlled shooting and dice setting are legal as long as the following conditions are met, and these conditions are vital for a legal throw:
1. The dice are tossed in the air, above the table surface, and
2. The dice bounce at least once on the table surface, and
3. The dice hit the back wall of the table, and
4. No artificial methods are used to limit the rolls of the dice or their movement including glues or paste.
In ALL cases "hitting the back wall" is included in the definition of a "legal throw," and I am sure that everyone will concede that "legal" means "accepted" as opposed to legislated.
Yes, everyone except most likely, one person.
ZCore13
Quote: IbeatyouracesNot saying that it hasn't happened here in Michigan, especially since I don't congregate much around a craps table, but I've seen many rolls where both dice do not hit the back wall and not once have I heard a no roll.
And police officers will let you go by driving over the speed limit, unless you do it too much or maybe announce to him or her your intention of doing it. Then they getcha. Same thing in craps.
Touching the cards is against the rules in Blackjack at my casino. Do we kick you out if you do it once or twice? No. If you try and do it consistently or tell me when you first arrive that you're with goodcardtouching.com and you are here to prove you can touch the cards, you're out the first time.
ZCore13
Quote: AlanMendelsonMr V I posted info from three states. Now, if you disagree that hitting the back wall is not needed to meet a "legal throw" I want to see your evidence. As we all know, the rule is not strictly enforced -- but it is still the rule. Because the rule is not strictly enforced does not mean that the rule has changed.
Huh?
Why have a rule that is not enforced?
Either it is "legal" or "illegal."
If it's illegal, then it is "criminal."
So, did they tell you it is a crime not to hit the back wall?
Nevada takes a very, very dim view of trying to cheat a casino: how many poor schmucks have been led off in cuffs for not hitting the back wall?
Is O.J.'s cell mate an erstwhile DI?
Quote:
Alan M
Don't believe me. Call the NGC Gaming Enforcement Division just as I did. Ask them for yourself.
Alan you wouldn't make a very good lawyer, why would you take hearsay on anything. I asked you to show us all the law that says you have to hit the back wall here in NV, can you please do that for all of us,.. the hell with hearsay!!!!!!
Quote: MrVHuh?
Why have a rule that is not enforced?
Either it is "legal" or "illegal."
If it's illegal, then it is "criminal."
So, did they tell you it is a crime not to hit the back wall?
Nevada takes a very, very dim view of trying to cheat a casino: how many poor schmucks have been led off in cuffs for not hitting the back wall?
Is O.J.'s cell mate an erstwhile DI?
These questions are completely inane, but let me answer them for you:
1. Rules are sometimes not enforced when the cost of enforcement is not worth whatever the rule is intended to discourage. Examples might include minor violations of the law such as jaywalking or speeding, or a die occasionally not touching the back wall.
2. "Illegal = criminal and legal = not criminal" is a silly, narrow definition not in line with generally accepted American English. Illegal can mean criminal, but it can also mean something along the lines of "expressly against established rules." In sports you can have an "illegal defense" or "illegal shift" but no one comes and arrests the offending player.
3. I'd guess it probably rarely if ever comes to someone being arrested for not hitting the back wall. Offending players are probably much more likely to be asked to leave the casino for disrupting the game, and probably be subject to arrest for trespassing if they do not comply.
Why not just admit the other guy was right instead of digging in your heels and making semantic arguments?
You asked this question of MrV!
Quote:
G71
Why not just admit the other guy was right instead of digging in your heels and making semantic arguments?
It's very simple,..MrV is right, and Alan M is wrong!
Quote: MrVHuh?
Either it is "legal" or "illegal."
If it's illegal, then it is "criminal."
So, did they tell you it is a crime not to hit the back wall?
Nevada takes a very, very dim view of trying to cheat a casino: how many poor schmucks have been led off in cuffs for not hitting the back wall?
Is O.J.'s cell mate an erstwhile DI?
Now you are being ridiculous. No one said it is a crime. "Legal" means acceptable, and everyone knows that. Even when you talk to the NGC they will tell you it's not a crime that you will be arrested for. It's a "legal" throw. Just like there are legal blocks in football....
Just stop it.
