Can You Be Banned for Dice Control? Have Casinos Done This?
Quote: AhighBecause when I bet $30 on a $25 craps table, I win $30 on the seven $30 on the eleven, and I lose $30 on the 2, 3, and 12.
I also do my very best to make an attempt to roll in such a way that I roll more sevens and elevens, fewer ace-deuce, aces, and twelves.
I guess that's the final answer for me because I am not as good a shooter as Ahigh. As much as I always try to roll a 7 or yo on the comeout I have too many 2s, 3s and 12s pop up. I also don't have Ahigh's money (wealth) and need to help offset my lesser abilities at influencing the dice by hedging my bet. I also admit that I have never made a big bet of $100 with money out of my pocket unless I had won previous bets that were pressed up (but there is one exception to this when I played on a $100 table at Caesars with the surgeon years ago).
So, as a mere mortal I am stuck hedging my passline bet even though every bet on the table is a negative expectation bet and therefore my hedge bet has an expected loss just as my flat bet has an expected loss.
But as MrV pointed out... I expect to have an entertaining time.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI guess that's the final answer for me because I am not as good a shooter as Ahigh. As much as I always try to roll a 7 or yo on the comeout I have too many 2s, 3s and 12s pop up. I also don't have Ahigh's money (wealth) and need to help offset my lesser abilities at influencing the dice by hedging my bet. I also admit that I have never made a big bet of $100 with money out of my pocket unless I had won previous bets that were pressed up (but there is one exception to this when I played on a $100 table at Caesars with the surgeon years ago).
So, as a mere mortal I am stuck hedging my passline bet even though every bet on the table is a negative expectation bet and therefore my hedge bet has an expected loss just as my flat bet has an expected loss.
But as MrV pointed out... I expect to have an entertaining time.
I actually respect that position a great deal, and that's fine with me. I know you're being facetious a bit, and that's alright too. I definitely risk my own big money frequently and I don't believe in "house money" at all one iota!
There have been two times that during a single roll, more than $50,000 was won while I was throwing the dice. Both times were at the Wynn, and one time was at a $100 minimum table.
I actually encourage you to try it. Even if you bet $100 on the pass and $100 on the don't pass and fool around to get a smaller odds bet by offsetting free bets, just playing on a table with BIG BIG BIG money is FUN FUN FUN!!!
If you are even TRYING to have a good shot and big money is on the line, you be more entertained by the dynamics of the situation. Of course some of those guys with big money are also not really nice people, so your mileage may vary. But you don't have to risk a lot (certainly not in the long run) to make a big bet. It evens out for random shooters just fine. And if you do have an edge, you want to get comfy with $100 tables. Something I have still not done myself. (Either prove an edge OR get comfy with $100 minimum tables).
My peak to valley yesterday was $500, and I came out a little bit ahead. But I'm not to embracing $1000 up and down each day again.
Quote: Ahigh
Now $30 on the pass and $25 on the don't pass:
aces: -11.11%
ace-deuce: -11.11%
four: -2.72%
five: -1.81%
six: -0.826%
seven: +9.09%
eight: -0.826%
nine: -1.81%
ten: -2.72%
yo: +11.11%
twelve: -45.45%
==========
Chance of winning 9/36 = 22.22%
Chance of losing: 77.78%
Expected return: (30/55)*(100-1.41)+(25/55)*(100-1.39)% = 98.59% (1.41% HE is $0.75 per $55 total bet)
Ahigh, could you please explain something for me?
If I win $5 on the seven, but lose $5 on aces, why aren't they both plus or minus the same percentage assuming the percentage is based on my net $55 bet?
Similarly on midnight, I've lost $30 of my $55, which is more than half, which must be more than minus 45.45%.
Quote: cowboyAhigh, could you please explain something for me?
If I win $5 on the seven, but lose $5 on aces, why aren't they both plus or minus the same percentage assuming the percentage is based on my net $55 bet?
Similarly on midnight, I've lost $30 of my $55, which is more than half, which must be more than minus 45.45%.
You're right. The aces, ace-deuce are both -9.09%. That's a mistake. 5/55 = 9.09% loss.
four/ten is (5/3)/55 = -3.03%
five/nine is (5/5)/55 = -1.81%
six/eight is (5/11)/55 = -0.826%
So I divided by 45 instead of 55 on the aces, ace-deuce, and four before I started using the correct (55) number. Sorry about that.
9.09 and 3.03 are the right loss percentages for $30 on the pass and $25 on the don't.
Quote: AlanMendelsonAhigh I've played on $10 tables at Caesars with players who had one mlllion dollars in their rail and were making $10k come and DC bets with full odds.
I suspected you were being facetious, just wasn't sure. But in any case, no worries. I normally play on $5 and $3 tables and just enjoy trying to win (or get my money back) when it seems like an impossible thing to do and leave the dealers scratching their heads wondering what happened. That's what my fun thing is.
Yesterday, I lost about $500 in about ten minutes at Ellis Island with big smart odds bets, and then I ground it all back with a two-hour grind with little to no odds that should have been a death spiral from the house edge. Carmine was my dealer, and I tipped those guys about 80% of what they made for the night (which wasn't much at all I will admit). Qi was also dealing. I had an issue where the pit crew treated the dealers poorly and told them I wasn't coming back because they couldn't treat their dealers right.
Carmine asked me to come back and I did. We had a good time. But it wasn't the money that made it fun. It was showing off my shot for carmine and coming back from $150-$200 on the rail to $700 making tons of tiny bets and tipping a dollar here and there along the way.
I am not a big better most of the time. And the last time I went to the Wynn (and won a little bit) I told them I wasn't a high roller and was betting much bigger than I normally do.
I'm not trying to mess up anybody. But I am very serious about my shot and I like any casino that lets me shoot the way I like to without giving me a hassle no matter how much I win or lose. Let me play my game by the house rules and ideally with no other people betting at the time and don't hassle me. That's my thing.
Quote: Ahigh
Carmine asked me to come back and I did. We had a good time. But it wasn't the money that made it fun. It was showing off my shot for carmine ... I am very serious about my shot and I like any casino that lets me shoot the way I like to without giving me a hassle no matter how much I win or lose.
What makes your shot so unique that you feel compelled to show it off to a craps crew?
Does lightning flash out of your fingers?
Do the dice sing "The Gambler" as they tumble merrily along the felt?
Quote: MrVWhat makes your shot so unique that you feel compelled to show it off to a craps crew?
Does lightning flash out of your fingers?
Do the dice sing "The Gambler" as they tumble merrily along the felt?
They wanted me to come back so I could tip them. After being tipped they lied their asses off about how my shot is so fantastic that they have never seen anyone shoot like me.
Does that fit within the parameters of what you would believe?
What is amazing about my shot is how lucky it is, because, as we all know, there is no proof that anyone can play with a player edge.
I got really unlucky with big bets. Then I got RIDICULOUSLY lucky with small bets.
I got my money back. I didn't win. I had fun. I lost the same as I tipped (IE: I broke even and tipped the dealers).
End of story.
The dealers are Carmine and Qi at Ellis Island. Go ask them yourself. They'll probably tell you that I tipped them more than anyone else that night and that I am serious about the game.
But let me ask you a question, why you gotta be the way you are?
Quote: AhighI suspected you were being facetious, just wasn't sure.
Im not being facetious at all. It is the truth. I've been at Caesrs Palace at ten dollar tables -- even recently -- with players with a million dollars in their rail making $10K flat bets with full odds.
What makes you think big players only play at $100 tables?
I think the $100 tables are pretty much set aside for showboaters trying to impress somebody. Like the players who call up in advance to warn the pit that they are going to be using controlled throws.
Quote: AhighI like any casino that lets me shoot the way I like to without giving me a hassle no matter how much I win or lose. Let me play my game by the house rules and ideally with no other people betting at the time and don't hassle me. That's my thing.
What do you do that a crew would hassle you about your shot? I've never seen anything in your various shots that a crew would question or challenge.
Quote: AhighBut let me ask you a question, why you gotta be the way you are?
I chose this path because it was a good fit.
I am suspicious (not paranoid) of aggrandizing claims made by others, and enjoy aggressively testing them.
I fnally found a good game at TI and had a great time.
I was told at one casino that I could not set the dice, house rules. I was the only player at any of their tables. I picked up my chips and left, once again dealers standing around with nothing to do.
I know it's their right to make the rules but I will vote with my wallet.
Quote: Chance187I would play at that casino and so would my friends. I expect the tables would be full unlike what I just saw. We just spent 5 days in Vegas, I was amazed at the 6-5 blackjack games with no one playing and the number of 100 and 200 dollar tables that were also empty. All of these tables, in numerous casinos, had dealers standing there doing nothing. Now that costs money.
I fnally found a good game at TI and had a great time.
I was told at one casino that I could not set the dice, house rules. I was the only player at any of their tables. I picked up my chips and left, once again dealers standing around with nothing to do.
I know it's their right to make the rules but I will vote with my wallet.
If more and more people start doing this (vote with your wallet/get), casinos will eventually the picture.
Quote: midwestgbBob, you have it backwards. Respectfully.
Frank and his fellows should as a matter of good business sense be welcomed into each and every casino they visit. Here is why...
Gambling is built on a dream. Just as golfers take to the links dreaming of playing one hole during their round just like Tiger and Jack ("Honey, I birdied no. 14 today!), gamblers visit the gaming tables dreaming of the big score.
Casinos need the Frank Scobletes of the world, making money and writing of their big scores. So the rest of us have something to dream about when we walk through the door.
Tiger was a putt setter.
Accused of SETTING dice.Quote: MDawgI've been verbally accused of dice setting before. Never at a top end casino though.
The pit boss accused me just because I was winning too much. Mostly he wanted to unsettle me I assume. After all, how could he have known that telekinesis is within my powers.
I was banned from Cosmopolitan because I never lost a single bet.Quote: MDawgI win fair and square.
The pit boss accused me just because I was winning too much. Mostly he wanted to unsettle me I assume. After all, how could he have known that telekinesis is within my powers.
They don't think SETTING the dice works. SETTING the dice is meaningless. Someone can set the dice all nice and precision like only to suddenly chuck them chaotically down the table. They may very well think setting the dice along with a deliberate proper influenced toss works. Even an idiot Pit Boss can tell if someone's toss has any chance of being influenced enough to passably gain an advantage. It's so very obvious who is at the table seriously trying to influence the dice in an attempt to gain an advantage. I highly doubt they viewed you as one of those people.Quote: MDawgI win fair and square.
The pit boss accused me just because I was winning too much. Mostly he wanted to unsettle me I assume. After all, how could he have known that telekinesis is within my powers.
They do hate when some idiot setting the dice is slowing down the game.
I personally don't believe what you wrote.
If anyone could post an example of AxelWolf's recollecting something even somewhat precisely from more than ninety days prior, I'd like to see it. I do know he's still fighting back the fog to remember how or why he thinks the story from this thread is false.
Why engage when the whole context of the discussion may be long forgotten by one party within a few months?
Quote: MDawgLet's see, I posted that story in September 2018, and recollected it here some two years later, with the original event having occurred some two decades prior.
If anyone could post an example of AxelWolf's recollecting something even somewhat precisely from more than ninety days prior, I'd like to see it. I do know he's still fighting back the fog to remember how or why he thinks the story from this thread is false.
Why engage when the whole context of the discussion may be long forgotten by one party within a few months?
I have pretty good recollection of things in life and I don't believe you either. But that shouldn't matter. You know what happened and you might know the real reason why.
I've had hundreds of people say they are getting kicked out for something that was in no way even close to the reason they were told. They just believe what they want and hear what they think.
ZCore13
How often do casinos actually tell people why they are being booted or backed off? Most of the time they won't even tell you why. Sir, we just don't want your business here anymore.Quote: Zcore13Quote: MDawgLet's see, I posted that story in September 2018, and recollected it here some two years later, with the original event having occurred some two decades prior.
If anyone could post an example of AxelWolf's recollecting something even somewhat precisely from more than ninety days prior, I'd like to see it. I do know he's still fighting back the fog to remember how or why he thinks the story from this thread is false.
Why engage when the whole context of the discussion may be long forgotten by one party within a few months?
I have pretty good recollection of things in life and I don't believe you either. But that shouldn't matter. You know what happened and you might know the real reason why.
I've had hundreds of people say they are getting kicked out for something that was in no way even close to the reason they were told. They just believe what they want and hear what they think.
ZCore13
I interpret that as. In September 2018 I made up a story and then I went back and reread it to make sure I had it right.Quote: MDawgLet's see, I posted that story in September 2018, and recollected it here some two years later, with the original event having occurred some two decades prior.
Anyone that knows your history knows that you will go back and scour the forums compiling everything ever written by someone and then take screenshots and post things while not giving the full context in order to prove some BS point.
Do you have a good memory about the time that you tried to doxx me by proxy multiple times? If I recall correctly, I believe you were even suspended on this very forum for attempted doxing someone else. How someone such as yourself doesn't know better, I'll never know.
"It's like Deja vu all over again." ---yogi berra
Quote: kewljThis is like watching a repeat on TV. These guys with fantasy claims all believe the same voodoo concepts. All engage in the same tactics of finding and taking things out of context. All engage in nasty personal attacks when they can get away with it.
"It's like Deja vu all over again." ---yogi berra
Speaking of deja vu... they're almost as bad as ppl who say they're quitting the forums but return again and again. It's like you can't trust anything they say.
Quote: RogerKintSpeaking of deja vu... they're almost as bad as ppl who say they're quitting the forums but return again and again. It's like you can't trust anything they say.
Do you understand what a forum is? It is a place for people to exchange ideas, thoughts and experiences. The more that participate the better. Why would you want to discourage someone, anyone, or attempt to shame someone into not participating as you just did. If people express frustration from time to time and consider leaving, or even if they leave and decide to come back, that is a good thing in my eyes. The more people, more experiences and ideas to share, the better.
Quote: RogerKintSpeaking of deja vu... they're almost as bad as ppl who say they're quitting the forums but return again and again. It's like you can't trust anything they say.
strongly disagree
not all of KJ's words have been worthwhile
but he is IMHO one of the greatest resources about AP blackjack on the web
and I'm aware that is a controversial statement that others may disagree with
I don't care - I stand by it
he will answer anybody's questions at any time - willing to take a great deal of time and care with his answers
for the player who doesn't envision himself as a high roller - but as a working AP - his stuff is excellent
a newbie blackjack AP who wishes to learn would be wise to scour the web to find all of his posts
*
. Is it just a coincidence that kewlj venmoed lil red $5 just yesterday? I think not! Having read the last dozen or so childish back and forth posts.. I actually have NO IDEA what thread this is!Quote: lilredroosterstrongly disagree
not all of KJ's words have been worthwhile
but he is IMHO one of the greatest resources about AP blackjack on the web
and I'm aware that is a controversial statement that others may disagree with
I don't care - I stand by it
he will answer anybody's questions at any time - willing to take a great deal of time and care with his answers
for the player who doesn't envision himself as a high roller - but as a working AP - his stuff is excellent
a newbie blackjack AP who wishes to learn would be wise to scour the web to find all of his posts
*
Quote: AxelWolfHow often do casinos actually tell people why they are being booted or backed off? Most of the time they won't even tell you why. Sir, we just don't want your business here anymore.Quote: Zcore13Quote: MDawgLet's see, I posted that story in September 2018, and recollected it here some two years later, with the original event having occurred some two decades prior.
If anyone could post an example of AxelWolf's recollecting something even somewhat precisely from more than ninety days prior, I'd like to see it. I do know he's still fighting back the fog to remember how or why he thinks the story from this thread is false.
Why engage when the whole context of the discussion may be long forgotten by one party within a few months?
I have pretty good recollection of things in life and I don't believe you either. But that shouldn't matter. You know what happened and you might know the real reason why.
I've had hundreds of people say they are getting kicked out for something that was in no way even close to the reason they were told. They just believe what they want and hear what they think.
ZCore13
Exactly the same as walking in any private business and a private business owner or manager does not approve of the way that a customer acts or gets along with the business itself, or his other customers and employees, he has every right to trespass that person as well.
There's no difference in the casino then restaurants or retail stores, whereupon any private businesses owner and management has the right to trespass anybody that they have any desire to trespass. Just because a person spends money there or risk money does not give that person rights to be present in a casino or in any other type of private business.
Quote: SOOPOO. Is it just a coincidence that kewlj venmoed lil red $5 just yesterday? I think not! Having read the last dozen or so childish back and forth posts.. I actually have NO IDEA what thread this is!
This IS a thread about people being 86'd for being too good shooting dice. Anybody else?
I dont think dice control is possible but dice influencing is.
But more importantly yes, there are casinos that object to players who try to be non random shooters. That hasnt changed.
Quote: AlanMendelsonA couple of points I'd like to make:
1. Random rollers take longer to throw the dice than those who try dice influencing or dice control. Anyone who has practiced setting dice can set the dice in two seconds or less. I've written about this many times: as the dice are pushed to me I know exactly how to rotate the faces to create my set and I can throw the dice almost instantly.
It's the random shooters who do all kinds of strange things such as rolling the dice in front of them, making all sorts of changes in the set, asking their girl to kiss the dice, picking up the dice and shaking them, calling out for cocktails, drinking their beer between throws, calling out to their friends at the other tables, chanting, saying gimme a six (or whatever the point is), or changing their bets while they have the dice in their hands.
I really doubt that anyone who has studied DI or DC would do any of that.
I've been at tables where random shooters went through a routine that was so long and so drawn out it took nearly a full minute for the dice to get in the air-- and then they went off the table.
Stop saying DIs delay the game.
2. A couple of months ago at Caesars when I had made my fifth point on the fire bet and I was now going for point number six, I took my sweet ass time and the dealers let me do it. I was the only player at the table with a fire bet and when another player at the table complained I was taking so long, a dealer explained what was at stake for me. Each successive throw they let me set the dice, take deep breaths, take my time... no pressure at all.
3. I've been told to leave both NYNY and Bellagio. At NYNY they took the dice away from me for setting even though I hit the back wall every time and my dice were bouncing all over the place. When the box and stick said they didn't like setting I asked if they believe it works and they said yes. After the next pass the boxman said "you're through."
At Bellagio they refused to pay my bets because the dice didn't bounce off the wall far enough (they came to rest against the wall) and when a floor person at another table told the crew at my table to pay the bets the crew got into a shouting fight with the floor person and I was told to leave while they fought it out. Later Bellagio management apologized to me and said the crew was being "retrained." Ironically I was losing money when I had the lucky rolls with the dice leaning against the back wall. When I played again at the Bellagio a few months later a floorman made it obvious to me I wasn't welcomed there.
At MGM I had one monster roll.. and after that a floorman would go to any table I was at and tell the boxman that if I missed the back wall even once to take the dice from me, though I was welcome to bet. On a visit several months later as soon as I stepped up to the table to buy in, two suits and two security guards walked up to the table to watch me. I never shot that day. Didn't have to. My sister (a random roller) shot first and held the dice for about 35 minutes. We cashed out and left.
4. I never had a problem at Caesars, though one time many years ago, a boxman (they had boxmen then) reminded me to hit the back wall with both dice. That was the only time anything was ever said. And if you play there you know they do not enforce hitting the back wall with both dice -- they only ask that you make a reasonable effort to hit the back wall with both dice. Obviously if you don't hit the back wall everytime they will notice.
Quote: AxelWolfIt just now dawned on me that MDawg has made yet another thread dedicated to me, not to mention, making me the co-star of his very own adventures thread, and some others. I wonder how many that is now, just here alone?
Get a motel room!
What I should do when everybody has left me to the table by myself.
Or I could bet the PL and lay every number and throw a 7-winner 5 times on the come-out.
I like you CH CH your a funny guyQuote: ChumpChangeBets the DP, lays every number but the point, throws a 7-out. -
What I should do when everybody has left me to the table by myself.
Or I could bet the PL and lay every number and throw a 7-winner 5 times on the come-out.
