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aparadim
aparadim
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March 18th, 2013 at 9:26:36 AM permalink
Quote: Superrick

So Alan basically after calling Ahigh and Harley nuts or damn close to it, you want them to come up with a system, so you can go into a casino and start winning money off their hard work and everybody else that has contributed to finding out if these dice do exist.It's not enough that they gave you a warning about them?


AHigh's first post of this thread shows an UP FACE distribution that has been ch-squared good-of-fit tested that does not come close to a 95 percent confidence that chance is not involved, let alone support yours and Harley's speculations that "these dice exist " or were bad, biased, etc. All that has been shown is that variance by chance can be a basis of AHighs first post.

None of Harley's Bad Dice warnings, opinions or speculations have have yet to be verified by testing.
Ahigh
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March 18th, 2013 at 10:23:31 AM permalink
Quote: aparadim

AHigh's first post of this thread shows an UP FACE distribution that has been ch-squared good-of-fit tested that does not come close to a 95 percent confidence that chance is not involved, let alone support yours and Harley's speculations that "these dice exist " or were bad, biased, etc. All that has been shown is that variance by chance can be a basis of AHighs first post.

None of Harley's Bad Dice warnings, opinions or speculations have have yet to be verified by testing.



I would agree with this, FWIW.

The real difficulty is collecting enough samples. I collected samples last night at the Silverton and after a bunch of work, randomness favored the pass line and free odds bets. I only recorded 149 rolls, but the heaviest faces were the three and four faces, and the players were getting paid and pretty happy.

It takes ALL DAY LONG (about 12 hours) to record enough faces to have a chance of asserting that the dice are not random. Even then, you only have a chance to make that assertion, plus you are absolutely certain to have lost 12 hours of your life to counting faces.
aahigh.com
Ahigh
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March 18th, 2013 at 11:22:04 AM permalink
After recording more sessions, I'm 100% sure all the results were just due to randomness.

There are no biased dice biased enough to matter to anything outside of theory. All imbalance is sufficiently random. Case closed.

Thanks for everyone's participation into the ideas of biased dice and biased throws and so forth and so on.

I think we wrapped it up guys!

Good job!
aahigh.com
superrick
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March 18th, 2013 at 12:48:02 PM permalink
Your Scientific Reasoning Is More Flawed Than You Think

Brought to you by Scientific American and Jason Castro



http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=your-scientific-reasoning-more-flawed-than-you-think
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
MathExtremist
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March 18th, 2013 at 1:00:38 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

Your Scientific Reasoning Is More Flawed Than You Think

Brought to you by Scientific American and Jason Castro

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=your-scientific-reasoning-more-flawed-than-you-think


But not so flawed so as to warrant replacement with instinct or conspiracy theories, especially when examining randomness.

Human perception of patterns in random data is well established. Our natural instinct is to ascribe causality to those patterns, but in sequences of random, independent events there is none. That has proven a very, very tough instinct for many to overcome.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
7craps
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March 18th, 2013 at 1:09:24 PM permalink
Quote: Harley

because I told AHigh before he even walked into that casino what the results would be biased to ...

but I can predict with almost 99% accuracy what the dice results are going to be after 30 rolls ---
and they will continue to be that same Bias for 500 or 600 rolls which is all we care about because they change dice every 8 hours in Vegas (except Caesar's which will keep them for up to 24 hours on a table)

Excellent claim.

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/cheating-casinos.html

"Our Biased Dice Team has found the following Casinos using Biased Unbalanced Dice:"

One of my favorite places to play
"Freemont - Fairest dice are red frosty with large font gold serial numbers.
The worst unbalanced dice are red "clearer" dice with small blue font serial numbers - will give you a heavy 5/2 and 6/1 Seven-Out bias"

"WARNING - Like all intelligence, this information is time sensitive so please take into consideration the date of the intel and note that the Casinos may employ a new case of dice with different criteria."
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
Ahigh
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March 18th, 2013 at 1:18:44 PM permalink
No really, this is all just random chance. There's no need to keep talking about this.
aahigh.com
AlanMendelson
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March 18th, 2013 at 1:18:49 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

Did you ever hear of paging back, you just might have missed a few other things along the way too!



Hey Superrick, I certainly did miss a lot here. Like any proof of any casino conspiracy to cheat players, like any proof that any casino is using rigged or bias diced, like any proof that any of these real "tests" actually happened in casinos using casino dice on casino tables, like any proof of anything that makes me doubt that playing craps in a casino is nothing less than fair.

I'm not looking for a magic bullet or for a system. I'm just looking for someone to show me anything I could possibly believe.

At this point, there is more credibility about Jimmy Hoffa being buried
a. in a vacant lot near the Red Fox
b. under a stadium
c. under a parking lot
d. in a land fill
thecesspit
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March 18th, 2013 at 1:22:35 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

No really, this is all just random chance. There's no need to keep talking about this.



Maybe we want to.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
AlanMendelson
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March 18th, 2013 at 1:22:38 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

No really, this is all just random chance. There's no need to keep talking about this.



I sense sarcasm? Or has a casino attorney contacted you?
Ahigh
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March 18th, 2013 at 1:34:54 PM permalink
Nope. No Attorneys. I just really believe that it's all random and the hope that is given to people who think there is a possibility to control the dice when there is none at all is not fair to those folks.

Probably better off not gambling at all and doing other things like watching movies or taking a vacation to the beach to make the most entertainment for your dollar.

If you want to do advantage play, I recommend looking at other games that offer advantage play like blackjack or video poker.

It doesn't exist with craps.

Thanks for everyone's time though!
aahigh.com
aparadim
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March 18th, 2013 at 2:42:24 PM permalink
Quote: Superrick

Your Scientific Reasoning Is More Flawed Than You Think

Brought to you by Scientific American and Jason Castro



Superrick,

Your logic technique linking to something that is not relevant is meaningless.
Use your opinion skills to specify the flawed Scientific Reasoning in my chi-squared testing post.

And I repeat, none of Harley's Bad Dice warnings, opinions or speculations have have yet to be verified by testing.
teddys
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March 18th, 2013 at 2:45:19 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

After recording more sessions, I'm 100% sure all the results were just due to randomness.

There are no biased dice biased enough to matter to anything outside of theory. All imbalance is sufficiently random. Case closed.

Thanks for everyone's participation into the ideas of biased dice and biased throws and so forth and so on.

I think we wrapped it up guys!

Good job!

All right!
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Ahigh
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March 18th, 2013 at 4:00:17 PM permalink
aahigh.com
Buzzard
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March 18th, 2013 at 4:48:04 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

After recording more sessions, I'm 100% sure all the results were just due to randomness.

There are no biased dice biased enough to matter to anything outside of theory. All imbalance is sufficiently random. Case closed.

Thanks for everyone's participation into the ideas of biased dice and biased throws and so forth and so on.

I think we wrapped it up guys!

Good job!




The case is not closed until the fat lady sings. Or in this particular case, until the Masked Man admits he is wrong !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Ahigh
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March 18th, 2013 at 5:18:52 PM permalink
Someone should admit that they were wrong, alright, but it's not the masked man.

In the mean time, "it's all random!!!"
aahigh.com
bbvk05
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March 18th, 2013 at 5:49:28 PM permalink
Quote: Harley

I can predict with almost 99% accuracy what the dice results are going to be after 30 rolls ---




AlanMendelson
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March 18th, 2013 at 5:58:00 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

Someone should admit that they were wrong, alright, but it's not the masked man.

In the mean time, "it's all random!!!"



I'm sorry, Ahigh, but I have trouble believing you have thrown in the towel on this. I think your friend Harley has told you to just "give up" on proving the point and join their inner circle of Secret Biased Dice Investigators.

It is just too easy and too simple for you to finally proclaim "it's all random" and let it drop after all the work you did trying to illustrate your findings... your research. Or did you do that trying to please the inner circle of secret investigators?

And then you put up the illustration of the horse with blinders as if to indicate... well, I don't know what it's supposed to indicate.

Are you playing both sides here? Or have you gone undercover and now will be spying on the rest of us? Who was the person charting my rolls at Caesars the other weekend... what Harley posted about. Yes, I saw the person charting me who did not bet.
SanchoPanza
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March 18th, 2013 at 6:41:02 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

It is just too easy and too simple for you to finally proclaim "it's all random" and let it drop after all the work you did trying to illustrate your findings... your research. Or did you do that trying to please the inner circle of secret investigators?


Reporters are often dismissed with, "Move along, nothing to see here." That is a statement that often leads to more and more interesting questions and actions.
petroglyph
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March 18th, 2013 at 9:42:09 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

After recording more sessions, I'm 100% sure all the results were just due to randomness.

There are no biased dice biased enough to matter to anything outside of theory. All imbalance is sufficiently random. Case closed.

Thanks for everyone's participation into the ideas of biased dice and biased throws and so forth and so on.

I think we wrapped it up guys!

Good job!



It's probably a good time to get out of the biz anyway,

I think your dice balancer is becoming obsolete.

The new ones are digital and will measure down to the

weight of a dot of an i, or the period at the end of a sentence.
Ahigh
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March 19th, 2013 at 12:20:35 AM permalink
I do everything out in the open. Teddy found me at the Plaza today. Randomly.

Randomly Teddy called me by accident this morning and I phoned him back.

Somehow our paths crossed again this evening.

Funny how something similar happened with me and the Wizard recently.

Just more evidence that everything is random!
aahigh.com
AlanMendelson
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March 19th, 2013 at 1:23:29 AM permalink
If I were writing a screenplay I would have our antagonist by the name of Ahigh now running for cover after getting a mysterious note left on the seat of his locked car in a casino garage that said in bold felt tip writing (so the camera could see) "BACK OFF."

And after leaving the garage, our antagonist drives to the garage of another casino where he drives to a dark level where a man waits in the shadows. Ahigh parks his car next to the waiting man, lowers his car window, and they mutter to each other unintelligible words while the camera cuts back and forth from lips to hands to eyes so that the audience can't read the lips.

Then the man walks away, disappearing in the darkness, and Ahigh drives away.

There is a dissolve and our antagonist is now seen walking into a casino in the morning and goes straight to the open craps table where dealers are waiting with hands clasped behind their backs, and new dice are waiting in the center of the table for the first player to arrive.

Ahigh puts five crisp $100 bills in the come box and says "change please." Chips are counted out and Ahigh puts the chips in his rail as the stickman pushes the five new dice to Ahigh.

The boxman smirks "want to get our your magical device and test our new dice, sir?"
"No thank you," says Ahigh smiling confidently, "why don't you choose two dice for me. It doesn't matter."

The camera zooms in on Ahigh's manicured fingers as he quickly flips the dice to show 4-2 on top, gripping them lightly with three fingers on the front, and his thumb in back. His polished finger nails splash light around the dice like a halo.

Ahigh gently lifts the two dice, and concentrating on the back wall throws the dice so they hit the table and bounce high, hitting just above the diamonds. They fall back and quickly come to rest.

"Hard eight" says the stickman, "bet the hard eight, hard eight is the point."

"Nice shot," says the floorman.

Ahigh throws out a black chip and calls out "hard eight one-hundred." And he places full odds behind his passline bet.

He picks up the two dice, quickly sets them to again show 4-2 on top, and with finger nails sparkling he throws them with a halo of light around the ruby red dice. The dice hit the table, bounce and hit the back wall above the diamonds, then fall back. The camera cuts from the dice almost coming to rest to show a look of shock on Ahigh's face.

"Seven, line away, pay the don'ts. Next shooter," calls the stickman as the camera zooms in on the dice showing a 6 and a 1.

"Got a problem with that son?" asks the floorman.

"No," says Ahigh, "it's a random game. I'll try my luck at video poker now." Ahigh picks up his remaining chips from the rail and turns to walk away from the table as the camera zooms out to show an empty casino with Ahigh walking off with Ahigh saying with a soft echo "it is just a random game, it is just a random game."

Fade to black.
Harley
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March 19th, 2013 at 11:13:33 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

The members of this forum are as obsessive over what should be free bets IN THEORY with perfect dice as other forums are about how you throw the dice to be fair to the two opposing camps on the game of craps.

All this does is demonstrate that the bets are not free for any distribution except perfectly flat. Perfectly flat distributions generally don't exist anywhere except in theory.

The challenge is to record outcomes for a stick of dice in a real casino, download the spreadsheet, and see what the edges are in reality of the real world instead of mocking people who believe things that are not compatible with your personal belief system.
...



AMEN .... I believe the Wizard has dropped the ball in his own back yard on this issue

Quote: Copyright © 2009-2013 Michael Shackleford


Blacklist Rules

My blacklist is a place for the most unethical of Internet casinos. Reasons for inclusion on the blacklist include:

Game results are not consistent with a random game.

I expect all casinos to offer a fair game as evidenced by the fact that the cards or dice observed fall in line with statistical norms. ...



- Who did the observation of Las Vegas casino dice ??!
- Does the Wizard give the Las Vegas casinos a pass since he is on their payroll ??!
- Is this why he only goes after online casinos ??!!

... or was it just a big assumption .... we know what happens when we assume something .....

https://wizardofodds.com/online-gambling/blacklist/index.php
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
MathExtremist
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March 19th, 2013 at 11:29:27 AM permalink
Quote: Harley

- Who did the observation of Las Vegas casino dice ??!
- Does the Wizard give the Las Vegas casinos a pass since he is on their payroll ??!
- Is this why he only goes after online casinos ??!!


The purpose of an online casino blacklist is to help unwary Internet gamblers avoid shady off-shore websites posing as fair gambling establishments but that, in reality, are just websites designed to take a player's money and not return it.

None of that is relevant to Las Vegas. It doesn't make any sense to "observe Las Vegas casino dice" in the context of an Internet casino blacklist.

You clearly have a bee in your bonnet about your perceived grand conspiracy in Nevada dice games. Make your own blacklist if you feel so compelled, but don't suggest that the Wizard has done anything untoward by focusing on the Internet gaming sector. Unlike in Nevada, there is actual evidence of unfair game behavior on the Internet. I have first-hand knowledge of this and, to toot my own horn, have successfully changed some of it. I am a fervent believer that gambling should be fair and well-regulated. That wasn't true in the early days of the Internet, and in some online jurisdictions it's still not, but there is no evidence that Nevada games are unfair in the slightest.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
teddys
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March 19th, 2013 at 11:51:50 AM permalink
Quote: Harley

AMEN .... I believe the Wizard has dropped the ball in his own back yard on this issue

I have the greatest respect what Mike does and as a person. He himself has said that his site is all about house edge/"element of risk." He says that is the best way to compare a bet against another. I agree with that. However, variance curves and standard deviation are mostly left up to the player to figure out. For example, a Jacks or Better game at 99.54% is going to have a much flatter curve than than a Double Double Bonus game at 99.98%. The lower percentage payback game might be better for someone with a smaller bankroll if there is cashback. You would never be able to figure that out just looking at those two numbers.

The same thing applies to table games. Playing craps at 3x4x5x odds is a MUCH smoother curve than 10x odds. It's almost like playing a different game. Blackjack has a steeper curve than baccarat. Pai Gow tiles is the lowest variance game in the casino.

He does have a page on the SD of various games but it is somewhat buried on the site. I think variance/SD is equally as important for the gambler as house edge, but Mike only focuses on the latter, which is fine but leaves a lot for the player to discover on their own.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Ahigh
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March 19th, 2013 at 12:01:42 PM permalink
aahigh.com
thecesspit
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March 19th, 2013 at 12:13:40 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh



Thanks for your intelligent input that has really progressed the debate.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
AlanMendelson
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March 19th, 2013 at 12:48:45 PM permalink
Ahigh could just admit that he has given up trying to argue with the rest of us about his/Harley's biased dice theory... but he can't. And so he pretends that he has seen the light that there is no biased dice conspiracy and presents cartoons, graphics, and mocking statements that all dice are random.

Too bad you couldn't own up to it, Ahigh, because this destroyed not only your own credibility as a purported "researcher," but it also invalidates your TV show and means all that money and time put into it was a waste.

At least Rob Singer had Gaming Today to publish his "findings." But you had to create your own TV show and buy your own pricey equipment to make your case.
7craps
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March 19th, 2013 at 1:21:52 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Ahigh could just admit that he has given up trying to argue with the rest of us about his/Harley's biased dice theory...

IMO, Ahigh has better things to do.
It is a lot of work (and mostly time) to track casino dice rolls.
But it must be done so the data sample is a good size.
Too much work for one man with lots on his plate.

Biased Dice team #1 claims to have tracked over 10,000 dice rolls from multiple casinos.
Where is that data? Ahigh can crunch that in one minute.
But it is old data by now. Has it been updated?? No, too much work.

"WARNING - Like all intelligence, this information is time sensitive so please take into consideration
the date of the intel and note that the Casinos may employ a new case of dice with different criteria."

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/biased-dice.html
"Las Vegas Casinos are systematically using Biased Dice in an effort to cheat their customers and increase profits.
These Biased Unbalanced Dice are mostly used every weekend,
holidays and especially when marketing promotions have targeted high rollers into the casino."
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
Ahigh
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March 19th, 2013 at 2:13:23 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Ahigh could just admit that he has given up trying to argue with the rest of us about his/Harley's biased dice theory... but he can't. And so he pretends that he has seen the light that there is no biased dice conspiracy and presents cartoons, graphics, and mocking statements that all dice are random.

Too bad you couldn't own up to it, Ahigh, because this destroyed not only your own credibility as a purported "researcher," but it also invalidates your TV show and means all that money and time put into it was a waste.

At least Rob Singer had Gaming Today to publish his "findings." But you had to create your own TV show and buy your own pricey equipment to make your case.



Interesting post.

After that it seems like maybe you could use a drink!



Yeah, who would believe me about anything? I mean who am I? I'm certainly no

ALAN
MENDELSON


You are so awesome, dude!

no really!
aahigh.com
EvenBob
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March 20th, 2013 at 6:53:24 AM permalink
I don't get it. Overnight Ahigh has turned into a caricature
of himself. Where he was serious before, he now just
clowns around and mocks everything. I don't understand
what his agenda is now, what does he hope to prove
with this attitude.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Zcore13
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March 20th, 2013 at 12:20:54 PM permalink
His idol is gone. There is no show for Kimosabe when the Lone Ranger is gone. He has nothing else to live for. :)

I know he's being sarcastic now, but maybe without that constant bad influence he will see the light. I was going to offer to get some dice from a distributer that distributes to the Casinos, but I just don't see any point anymore. It's become almost as silly as anyone who would take the Wizard's Challenge.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
EvenBob
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March 20th, 2013 at 12:47:11 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

His idol is gone. There is no show for Kimosabe when the Lone Ranger is gone. He has nothing else to live for. :)
ZCore13



No no, Kimosabe and the Lone Ranger are the same
person. There's no show for Tonto when the Masked
Man is gone. Or is it Kato and Green Hornet. Without
a program and an unmasking its hard to tell..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ahigh
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March 20th, 2013 at 2:03:13 PM permalink
AWESOME! You guys!!! So smart people here are. It's so awesome all the dumb guys got nuked and now it's just the smart guys.

*SIGH OF RELIEF!!!*

Thanks for pointing out I've not been using dice from a real casino. I was hoping nobody noticed I was using backgammon dice!

Without sarcasm: the same manufacturing line that produces Bee Dice also produces the brand new dice here at the Gambler's General store.

I have over a hundred of those. Anyone can buy them for $12 a stick here. I also have purchased 20 sticks of my own custom dice that I created myself that follow the same stringent guidelines for precision dice. Those 20 sticks cost me $600.

I also have 600 Paulson dice uncancelled made for a casino and never used.

It is an obvious display of hubris your perspective on being able to help me here.

Bee Dice are used by many casinos (very nearly all of them).

The gambler's general store actually sells the (cancelled) rejects for $1 each in their store.

But I have plenty (HUNDREDS) of uncancelled unused real casino dice that were manufactured for casinos and never used. Sealed boxes of them!
aahigh.com
Ibeatyouraces
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March 20th, 2013 at 2:18:41 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Ahigh
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March 20th, 2013 at 2:21:21 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Get me some unshaven, unholed decks of casino brand cards so I can switch them in.



I know this is a joke, but even with the means (supply) to do this kind of thing, it's honestly easier to pull and get away with a biker bandit move than something like this.

The point that I'm making is that I have PLENTY of 100% unused casino quality dice in my possession.

Further point: the idea that someone would suggest I have put as much effort in as I have and not have them is absolutely HILARIOUS!
aahigh.com
MathExtremist
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March 20th, 2013 at 2:23:24 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I have over a hundred of those.
I also have 600 Paulson dice uncancelled made for a casino and never used.


Not for nothing, but that's probably over $1500 worth of dice. Is there a reason you acquired so many? I have a few pair of razor-edge dice but certainly not hundreds of sticks.

Was it a shutdown sale? I remember when Vacation Village shut down about 10 years ago and they had a big "sell everything" affair. The chips were long gone by the time I showed up and I wasn't exactly in the market for a heavily-used slot chair.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Ahigh
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March 20th, 2013 at 2:25:00 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Not for nothing, but that's probably over $1500 worth of dice. Is there a reason you acquired so many? I have a few pair of razor-edge dice but certainly not hundreds of sticks.

Was it a shutdown sale? I remember when Vacation Village shut down about 10 years ago and they had a big "sell everything" affair. The chips were long gone by the time I showed up and I wasn't exactly in the market for a heavily-used slot chair.



600 dice aka 120 sticks aka 3 cases.

One case's seal is broken and ten sticks or so have been used, the other two unbroken.

One of those sticks was the stick that generated the interest in the biased dice on the Ahigh show(!!!)
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MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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March 20th, 2013 at 2:27:26 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

600 dice aka 120 sticks aka 3 cases.


Right, I should have said dozens. Still, I've never been on the (land-based) operator side and didn't know that they came in cases of 40 sticks. Did you get them at a casino fire sale or did you actually order from Paulson?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Ahigh
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March 20th, 2013 at 2:31:52 PM permalink
Paulson absolutely will NOT sell anything to individuals when it comes to dice.

The Gambler's Supply Store (aka Bee brand dice) will.

I got them through direct purchase from an individual (not from a company). They are legal to the best of my knowledge, but I don't want to reveal so much information as to incriminate myself in the event that they are not.

I do not know how this individual came into possession of the items, only that I believe my possessing them is 100% legal.

I'm sure you understand.

Here is a link to uncancelled casino quality Paulson dice on E-bay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Set-of-5-Paulson-Casino-Dice-Sun-Cruz-Casino-Dark-Blue-/310372621939?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4843a65e73

The point being that they are generally available.
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Ibeatyouraces
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March 20th, 2013 at 4:14:12 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
bbvk05
bbvk05
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March 20th, 2013 at 7:16:33 PM permalink
Dice control and biased diced have occupied my thoughts way more than they should be. Some random thoughts I've been kicking around:

Biased Dice:
-Harley is obviously full of shit. All you have to do is read his posts and site to immediately understand this. Vague bullshit, completely unrealistic and unsupported claims, etc. He's like a tabloid.
-Unbalanced dice might not even lead to the kinds of biases claimed.
-Ahigh has demonstrated that some biases would not lead to unacceptable casino exposure (ie the DONT would not be too heavily favored).
-Nobody has offered a large enough sample of real rolls to say that the dice really are showing certain faces too often anywhere.
-Failed DI people want to blame it on the dice.

Dice control:
-Obviously it is possible.
-It wouldn't take much control to win. Specifically, only a tiny amount of influence could make the game EV+, especially if you have a large odds bet or something like that.
-I would like to see a professional DARTS player devote a year to practice. It seems to be all about motor control.
-Most of the demonstrations I've seen involve WAY too much bouncing and twisting for someone to say they are influencing to any real degree.
-Casinos don't appear to care about DI beyond the face that it slows down the game. The countermeasures seem to be tailored to fight dice sliders.
-This whole topic is clearly not worth the time it takes to think about it.
EvenBob
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March 20th, 2013 at 7:21:50 PM permalink
Quote: bbvk05


Biased Dice:
-Harley is obviously full of shit. .



Is that why he wore the mask? I thought it
was because he knew things us 'lesser fools'
weren't aware of. This is all very confusing,
I'm going to relax and watch the first Batman
movie..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ahigh
Ahigh
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March 20th, 2013 at 8:45:56 PM permalink
Sneaking in short rolls is the obvious way to get an edge on the casino using your shot. It just won't be tolerated long term.

When you roll comes up short and does not bounce at all, that die is more likely to remain on axis (from not bouncing or not much at all).

Some casinos (EG: Wynn, Gold Coast, and others) have bounce characteristics that facilitate short rolls. Too bouncy and it's obviously very random and players don't like that (Palms, Hooters, more recently Fiesta Henderson). If it's too bouncy, tables may not earn as much money from players not liking how it bounces (especially locals casinos). Not bouncy enough and you don't get as much randomness from the initial felt bounce. Somewhere in between causes more rolls to come up short.

I think there are places that may have more exposure than they know because their tables are in that middle ground facilitating short rolls (intentionally or not).

One way that an experienced shooter will identify table bounce is by the sound that the table makes when the dice initially hit.

If you focus on the sound as well as the bounce itself, you will realize there are many different bounce characteristics around town here in Vegas.
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EvenBob
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March 20th, 2013 at 9:00:11 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh



If you focus on the sound as well as the bounce itself, you will realize there are many different bounce characteristics around town here in Vegas.



I think you should sneak a decibel meter into the
casinos and get the readings from every craps
table in town. Then write a program to analyze
the data and combine it with your dice data
and bounce date. Should take months, just
don't get caught with the meter, they'll not
think its funny.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AlanMendelson
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March 20th, 2013 at 9:08:31 PM permalink
True, different tables have a different bounce. No two tables are alike, which defeats the purpose of having a practice rig at home... or even having your own table.

The advocates of dice influencing/control prescribe a certain "soft, low throw" for bouncey tables.

The "advocates" also suggest that you use the "come out roll" to help you determine the bounce characteristic of the table you are on... so that you get a "feel" for it.

Remember the experiment of hitting two dimes with two dice? I set two dimes on my queen sized bed and after about thirty "targeting rolls" I became pretty good hitting both dimes with my dice.

I would think that someone with their own table at home would have hitting the same spot down to a science if they really believed or wanted to test dice influencing.
Ibeatyouraces
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March 20th, 2013 at 9:09:09 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Ahigh
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March 20th, 2013 at 9:11:26 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

True, different tables have a different bounce. No two tables are alike, which defeats the purpose of having a practice rig at home... or even having your own table.



Alan,

You make more unsubstantiated claims than any other member on this forum in my personal opinion. I'm not sure I could have said this with as much confidence a couple days ago. But with the recent changes, you get the award in my book.

I really wish you didn't just come up with shit in your head and proclaim it as true. Including your claim that I have ruined my credibility. The IRONY of that statement is confounding.

Let me correct your statements:

All craps tables are alike. There are many purposes for having a practice rig at home. These are TRUE statements.

I know you meant to say that no two tables are exactly the same. Even identical twins are not exactly the same even though they have the same genetic makeup. These are true statements.

But all craps tables are alike. And if having a craps table at home had no purpose at all, well, do I really have to complete this?

What I wonder though is what is going through your mind when you say such obviously false statements? Are you just trying to generate "discussion?"

"Let me google that for you" is the general response I have to very nearly 80% of your questions when I read them!

Your obviously false blanket statements are simply useless in so many cases it is like noise very often. I am sure you think you are making contributions more frequently than not, but so often, not so much from my view.

If I didn't have to guess what you were thinking when you stated a claim and instead could simple read what you were writing and interpret it very literally and have it be true, it would be a lot easier. But I think half the time, I just have no idea what you're really thinking anyway. I'm just left wondering, "what the hell, dude? REALLY?!?!"

Maybe that's what they teach you when you report the news; I have no idea. It'd just be great if you could try to make more concise statements at least.
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AlanMendelson
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March 21st, 2013 at 4:47:56 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh


All craps tables are alike.



Stop right there. If that's what you believe I can't discuss anything with you about dice influencing and dice control.

I guess you would say that all golf courses are alike, too? And all tennis courts are alike?

But before you jump all over me, would you care to explain how you could possibly say "all craps tables are alike" when you also posted this:

Quote: Ahigh

Some casinos (EG: Wynn, Gold Coast, and others) have bounce characteristics that facilitate short rolls. Too bouncy and it's obviously very random and players don't like that (Palms, Hooters, more recently Fiesta Henderson). If it's too bouncy, tables may not earn as much money from players not liking how it bounces (especially locals casinos). Not bouncy enough and you don't get as much randomness from the initial felt bounce. Somewhere in between causes more rolls to come up short.

I think there are places that may have more exposure than they know because their tables are in that middle ground facilitating short rolls (intentionally or not).

One way that an experienced shooter will identify table bounce is by the sound that the table makes when the dice initially hit.

If you focus on the sound as well as the bounce itself, you will realize there are many different bounce characteristics around town here in Vegas.



And then you went on to post this:

Quote: Ahigh


There are many purposes for having a practice rig at home.



Sure there are, if you're selling them. Even the early advocates of dice control knew that a valid replacement for practice rigs would be throwing dice on your bed so that you could practice the grip and toss. A practice rig, without the height and length of the actual table you play on -- not to mention the same bounce -- is worthless except to the sellers.

Even Stanford Wong said, early on, that practice rigs could have been replaced with aluminum foil spread on your bed -- and as you threw the dice on the aluminum foil you would check for "stars" and "stripes." Stars meaning that the dice hit on their corners -- showing no control. Stripes meaning the dice were still on axis, hitting flat on their edges.

Ahigh I get the impression you are trying to be the king of craps, perhaps you are also trying to become a leader in the community of dice setters and dice influencers now that the original crew is near retirement age. Perhaps you will be, but at what cost? You work for a company in the casino industry. You have been, by your own admission, banned by at least one casino. Your industry is small. People talk. You play craps daily, by your own admission. Be careful, young man.
AlanMendelson
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March 21st, 2013 at 4:55:59 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I say get rid of the felt layout and make it a hard laminent like a countertop or kitchen table, change the dice every hour or two like cards are and see what happens.



I'm curious if anyone knows-- back in the old days were craps tables covered with felt or fabric or was it just a wood surface? Was the felt added for appearance or to cut down on noise or what?
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