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miplet
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March 5th, 2013 at 12:49:47 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh



You want to talk about the beast?


Angel of the Winds Casino, Arlington, WA. I've played at that table many times. $1 min until 2pm, $3 (and rarely $5) the rest time. I played my first game of craps at that casino.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
TIMSPEED
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March 5th, 2013 at 12:56:31 PM permalink
Are we using that picture because it's a 14'?
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
Ahigh
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March 5th, 2013 at 1:33:44 PM permalink
I just included it because it has a lot of beautiful details.

I'm sure most people would agree that all craps games are basically the same, though.

I just happen to enjoy distinguishing the details from one place's setup to the next.

I had no idea where this table was located, so thanks for letting me know!
aahigh.com
AndyGB
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March 5th, 2013 at 2:56:51 PM permalink
Quote: miplet


Angel of the Winds Casino, Arlington, WA. I've played at that table many times. $1 min until 2pm, $3 (and rarely $5) the rest time. I played my first game of craps at that casino.

Hey I just played there a couple weeks back for the first time! They were real concerned about my wife's dice-tapping, my friend's arm-warmers that reached past her wrists... seemed pretty paranoid for how far they were making you throw the cubes.
AlanMendelson
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March 5th, 2013 at 3:04:52 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh


The DEVIL is in the DETAILS.



I'm not much of a math guy, but if in fact the devil is in the details then you have to follow the details. The details about math and statistics as it relates to gaming is that anything can happen in the short term, and you can only judge by the "long term."

If we want to go by your studies, you will have to present long term stats for everyone to consider.

Others have suggested that you continue to roll the dice you believe are biased to give us long term results, and also use dice you believe are not biased as a "control" to see what results they give. I think that 's a fair request even though I would rather see a physical examination of the suspect dice to determine if they are out of balance.

In short I agree that the devil is in the details so let's work through the details and see what it shows.

But the bottom line just might be this: proving that a casino -- any casino -- is using biased dice. Your dice -- with or without a bias -- doesn't mean I or anyone else runs the risk of using biased dice in any casino game.

There might be plenty of biased dice in the world, but if I didn't use them, or they weren't in use at a game I was in, what difference does it make and what harm has it caused me or anyone else? And the answer is none.

Proving that there are biased dice only proves there are biased dice, and nothing more. But I digress.

Continue your testing.
Keyser
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March 5th, 2013 at 3:34:34 PM permalink
Ahigh/Harley,

Is there any chance that you can post more dice outcomes than just the 370 that have already been posted?
Harley
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March 5th, 2013 at 5:37:05 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Ahigh/Harley,

Is there any chance that you can post more dice outcomes than just the 370 that have already been posted?



Keyser ...... we appreciate your willingness and desire to brainstorm vs. the greedy corporate casinos ... however, doing so here publicly right now would not be in our best interest as the casinos can make counter-measures with our intel

If we disclosed the combination to winning and how to beat the casinos here on a public board , It's no different than disclosing on the internet what the combination is to the bank vault ...... the bank would have to make countermeasures to protect it's assets and change it's vault combination

We had a lengthy discussion with a couple members of the Biased Dice Research Team and believe we have uncovered a new chapter in Casino Management 101

consider that the Nevada Gaming Commission told us that they have the right to protect state revenue -- also that state revenue comes from the casinos, thus the NGC protects the casinos as if it were their Fort Knox

the NGC also told us in a private meeting about dice that they approve what the Monte Carlo casino (in Europe) does after 1 of it's Roulette wheels develops a bias that is taken advantage of by it's customers ..... The European casino closes for 2 hours every morning & during this time they will switch out the bad Roulette wheel to another table ..... Therefore if the same customers try to take the same advantage the next day, they will be surprised by different results

we have concluded based on several cases that we are seeing the same type of casino asset management at the Craps tables .... If someone is able to take advantage of the biased dice 1 day, the next day (or even next dice change), will have a different set of dice WITH a DIFFERENT bias appear in that casino.
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Ahigh
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March 6th, 2013 at 5:31:10 PM permalink
I'm moving the Ustream videos over to You Tube. One of the more interesting results from the show is how some Paulson branded dice from GPIC looked in my balancer on a show when I was looking for biased dice preceding recording rolls before a show.

http://youtu.be/YNZc4M3yuSk?t=7m21s

The link above goes to the part where I look at two dice out of a brand new stick of dice from Paulson. These are uncancelled dice that mic properly, and are brand new never used. I actually have three cases of these dice, and it's these dice that turned up as producing the 6-1 seven-outs from the previous show, which is why I was balancing these dice prior to this show to avoid the controversy with biased dice.

As far as sharing face results from dice that are observed in the casino, I have no plans to do this. Everything that I am doing takes so much time that I just only have so much time to devote to this stuff. I'm not averse to sharing my own data, but I'm not sharing Harley's data. He's giving me data from the casino and I'm working with him on trying to match strategies to his observations.

But if casinos don't want to look at die balance and leave themselves exposed, I guess that's how it will be for now. This is absolutely evidence that imbalanced dice are out there. I have no idea if this amount of imbalance is detectable from other balance devices, but I doubt it. The $40 calipers are pretty poor in quality and are difficult to use and read, and more often give you misreads.
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Harley
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March 7th, 2013 at 4:55:29 PM permalink
re-posted here to proper thread with apologies

Quote: Zcore13

LOL Now Ceasars and Paris use biased dice? And you acuse the internet of being "theory-land"? A hard roll will counter mother nature and biased dice? You are sounding more and more like the dice in your head are off balance every day. C'mon Harley... you have absolutely no proof of any of this and yet you continue to slander Casinos and thier fairness. Don't be surprised if you receive some contact from an Attorney from one of these location. You're treading on thin ice.

ZCore13



ZCore13 - we have actual proof ... actual casino dice from live play that are unbalanced from Caesar's, we have shown them to the NGC and the Texas Attorney General's office .... we have the charting to prove what Paris uses --- both fair dice and unbalanced dice based on color and serial numbers (and no, I am not going to post it here ... you can go chart it yourself or get some live casino dice yourself if you don't believe me)

If you want to see the proof, look at the Koganinja's video proof of Caesar's unbalanced dice -- he has some Caesar's unbalanced dice on his videos ... see Links here and elsewhere on his YouTube channel:

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/search/label/Koganinja

We dare Nevada to take us to court, but they will not because they do not want the publicity from the mountains of evidence that would expose their fraud .... it's more likely we will be 86ed in the desert than in court

I do not wholeheartedly agree with Pearson's chi-square for 1 die because you have to exponentially compound the effects for 2 dice since Craps is based on outcome of 2 dice, however here are the results for Caesar's die Serial # 2124

Quote: Pearson's chi-square

"Pearson's chi-square" hypothesis testing procedure.

Testing a d6:  Roll it 30 times.
Keep a tally of how many times each face comes up, from 1 to 6.
(Note that we expect the number of appearances from each face
to be about 5; 30/6 = 5). At the end, go through the counts and subtract 5
from each, square them all, and then add them all up.
For a fair die, the total at the end should be no more than 55.



Chicken Feed Random Roll from Straight out on 12 foot table:

Face ... Total ... Less 5 ... Squared
.. 1 ........ 9 ........ 4 ........... 16
.. 2 ........ 2 ........ -3 ........... 9
.. 3 ........ 3 ........ -2 ........... 4
.. 4 ........ 4 ........ -1 ........... 1
.. 5 ........ 10 ....... 5 ........... 25
.. 6 ........ 2 ........ -3 ........... 9

Totals .... 30 ........ ........... 64

If you want a list of other casinos we have proof of unbalanced dice, see this link for List:

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/cheating-casinos.html

Bring it on Corporate lawyers and or Nevada Gaming Commission (who is shunning their fiduciary duty) !!

Quote: Ahigh

I think others should collect and post data. It's easy to do. It's just work.

When you realize that 100 rolls per hour and everybody wants you to publish 700 rolls, that's like a whole day's worth of work!

I don't fault him for wanting to keep his data to himself.



Thank you AHigh ... well said !! ..... I make money from my data ... if you were to find gold in the desert, you would be a fool to publish the coordinates of where you found it ... better if you don't believe my so called "conspiracy theories" and just blindly go into the casino and play craps

Keyser aka Snowman .... I talked to you at length a few years ago and offered to meet with you ... I agree with your older "chipped or worn" dice theory .... I was intrigued by your dice Lab and work with dice and their logos and I think there is definitely some merit to your work. However, our Dice Research Team concluded that your drop test does not duplicate the centrifugal force and gravity effects of a 12 or 14 foot table
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Keyser
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March 7th, 2013 at 5:05:35 PM permalink
Harley,

You keep redirecting to the youtube videos. As I've said in the past, spinning the dice is just about worthless. It's doesn't really prove that the dice are biased. I've even viewed the elaborate spinner, but can see some obvious flaws in the machine.

Where is some actual toss data? Toss data would be far more statistically relevant than spin data.
SanchoPanza
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March 7th, 2013 at 7:55:28 PM permalink
Quote: Harley

If you want to see the proof, look at the Koganinja's video proof of Caesar's unbalanced dice -- he has some Caesar's unbalanced dice on his videos ...


As one poster noted in reaction, "Even with this added weight, the SRR was 1:19."

You folks have a long way to go just to make sense of what is being asserted, never mind "proof."
DeMango
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March 7th, 2013 at 8:24:14 PM permalink
Irregardless of any proof, I will roll in Vegas with an open mind and an open notebook. Any casino foolish enough to have biased dice, will shortly pay for their mistake!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
Ahigh
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March 7th, 2013 at 8:41:26 PM permalink
Quote: DeMango

Irregardless of any proof, I will roll in Vegas with an open mind and an open notebook. Any casino foolish enough to have biased dice, will shortly pay for their mistake!



I'm looking forward to hearing any success stories for exploiting dice.

If these theoretical biased dice are out there and being used, it's very likely that the casinos have no clue of the exposure they have yet.

It will be awesome if they find out after losing why it was stupid to be penny wise and pound foolish buying cheap dice no matter how brilliantly it may have worked until this point.
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Harley
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March 7th, 2013 at 8:57:38 PM permalink
AHigh .... the Wynn Sliding dice story from late 2011 where several dealers and box were mysteriously fired and several players had trumped up civil charges filed against them was a case where some smart players exploited biased dice legally .... the facts of the case as reported do not make sense and a security friend of ours saw the video tape --- there was no sliding of the dice as alleged

See https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/6829-gambler-accused-of-dice-sliding-at-wynn-las-vegas-sued-for-return-of-700-000/4/
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Buzzard
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March 7th, 2013 at 9:04:26 PM permalink
" a security friend of ours saw the video tape " Is he a son of the security cop who saw a shooter on the grassy knoll when JFK
was shot ? Just asking,
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Ahigh
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March 7th, 2013 at 9:12:58 PM permalink
Really, Harley? Hey, all I know is that if these biased dice are out there, a lot of people are looking to profit from them. They will be found and exploited if they are out there at this point.

To me, this is the best way to keep the casinos honest is just letting people know how to take advantage of anything shady that is going on, whether it's intentional or not, the dice need to be fair, and if they are not fair, there is going to be some news stories breaking as people from this forum go and track dice and make a killing.

If the dice are already fair, and all this is just random stuff happening, we will hear back from people saying as much.

I want all the dice out there to be fair myself. And it's a lot less work for me personally to let other people sniff out potential profits from cheap dice that are out there until the casinos learn it's not smart to put cheap dice on tables with thousands of dollars at risk each day.

It will be interesting to see where this goes, but I think there's already people looking to go and see for themselves what's going on out there.

I honestly hope to hear about casinos losing thousands from dudes max-bet grinding in the field all day long until they are told to leave.

TRIPLE THE LUCKY FIELD with a max bet field has got to be so much fun at a $250 sweat joint! Just hitting aces for $60 was fun enough for me. And another guy was getting triple on hundred dollar fields on my roll.

It's great fun and the dealers just shake their heads. LOLz!
aahigh.com
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 3:35:01 AM permalink
Quote: Harley

Keyser ...... we appreciate your willingness and desire to brainstorm vs. the greedy corporate casinos ... however, doing so here publicly right now would not be in our best interest as the casinos can make counter-measures with our intel

If we disclosed the combination to winning and how to beat the casinos here on a public board , It's no different than disclosing on the internet what the combination is to the bank vault ...... the bank would have to make countermeasures to protect it's assets and change it's vault combination



Absolutely Harley!! DO NOT WHISPER A WORD of what you have discovered. We don't want the casinos to start doing something different... not when you have them figured out.

Quote: Harley

We had a lengthy discussion with a couple members of the Biased Dice Research Team and believe we have uncovered a new chapter in Casino Management 101



I forgot about the Biased Dice Research Team. The B D R T. Not to be confused with U N C L E -- the United Network Command for Law and Enforcement.

Quote: Harley

consider that the Nevada Gaming Commission told us that they have the right to protect state revenue -- also that state revenue comes from the casinos, thus the NGC protects the casinos as if it were their Fort Knox



Sounds reasonable to me. Game protection is why there are various rules established. You wouldn't want the NGC to say it's okay for gamblers to cheat... just as you wouldn't want them to say casinos can cheat.

Quote: Harley

the NGC also told us in a private meeting about dice that they approve what the Monte Carlo casino (in Europe) does after 1 of it's Roulette wheels develops a bias that is taken advantage of by it's customers ..... The European casino closes for 2 hours every morning & during this time they will switch out the bad Roulette wheel to another table ..... Therefore if the same customers try to take the same advantage the next day, they will be surprised by different results



Sounds like a logical and cost-effective way to trip-up the guys who detected the wheel bias. I have no problem with the casino doing that. Do you think the casino should hang a sign on the wheel that says "this wheel is biased, and we'll leave it here in use for long periods of time just so you can see for yourself" ??

Quote: Harley

we have concluded based on several cases that we are seeing the same type of casino asset management at the Craps tables .... If someone is able to take advantage of the biased dice 1 day, the next day (or even next dice change), will have a different set of dice WITH a DIFFERENT bias appear in that casino.



Aha!! So that's why they change the dice at casinos! To fool us into thinking the five dice in the bowl are biased one way, only to have new dice, with a new bias another day! Wow. I really had this silly thought that they changed the dice because dice get worn from use, and new dice with sharp edges and corners made a nicer appearance. And all this time I thought that by having new, fresh dice on the table made it unlikely that counterfeit or altered dice could be introduced into a game. But no -- those aren't the reasons! You guys found out the truth -- and the truth is they want to switch the bias from one day to the next! (Now, if we only knew when to play on days that the bias is on the "8" and which days the bias is on the "5"???)

You guys have got 'em by the balls. Good job. And all this time I had no idea that the casinos were part of T H R U S H... Technological Hierarchy for the Removal of Undesirables and the Subjugation of Humanity.

You performed a great service. Thank you.
Harley
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March 8th, 2013 at 9:07:42 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

...You performed a great service. Thank you.



Thank you AlanMendelson .... now if you could do your job .. you call yourself - from your website http://www.alanbestbuys.com/index.html

Quote: AlanMendelson

..."Moneyman" Alan Mendelson who is the original Best Deals TV Show reporter on KCAL9 and consumer advocate, ...



1st - as Mr V correctly suggested on October 5, 2011, as a service to consumers, you should file a correction to your article not only on your website but in several places that it has been published on the internet:

Quote: MrV

Alan's interview with the retired agent was interesting, but the interviewee's comments only seems to muddle the issue of illegality.

It is claimed that a throw is deemed legal only if the dice are "tossed in the air, hit the table surface at least once and hit the back wall."

That might be the criteria for a casino to accept a throw, but as to whether a player can be prosecuted for not meeting these criteria is a different question entirely.

I am unaware of any Nevada statute or regulation that spells out the above criteria as defining the requirements for a legal throw; if there are any, please point them out.

I am also unaware of any appellate Nevada criminal cases wherein the courts have wrestled with, clarified and ruled on this thorny issue: I rather doubt that any Nevada court has specified the three mentioned criteria as being essential for a roll of the dice to be deemed legal.

In the absence of either statute, regulation or court case, the issue is wide open for interpretation, which should provide very fertile ground indeed for a competent defense attorney to successfully defend against a claim of cheating.



see original article here = http://www.alanbestbuys.com/id139.html
..... waayy down the page (you really need better keyword and article indexing on your website)

2nd - as a consumer advocate and reporter, instead of just trying to ask AHigh and myself all these questions and trying to get us to do all your work -- why not try to do some investigative reporting yourself (ala Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein investigative style) ..... I will even help you with some key areas to consider:

- Why is Nevada still the Wild, Wild West when it comes to gaming (good title for your article)
- why does Nevada have ZERO craps laws , every other state, including Australia has detailed craps laws
- why does Nevada have ZERO dice specification laws , every other state, including Australia has detailed dice specification laws
- why does Nevada not publish the individual tax returns of each casino like New Jersey does showing hold by each game (what are they trying to hide - NGC has told us that it would not be fair to the privacy of the casinos -- remind you that most of these casinos are publicly traded highly disclosed corporations anyway)
- why does Nevada not require each casino to follow Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) when filing tax teturns, for instance if a patron takes out a $100,000.00 marker at the table, the casino does not have to pay taxes on that marker until the patron repays it if ever (usually 30 days later) ...... even though the casino may have cashed those monies immediately if the patron lost say $95,000.00 of it that day .... in other words, there is a mismatch of cash receipts and accrued revenues on reported holds and a violation of wherewithal to pay principle
- Why does Nevada have the lowest tax rate on casino income in the world
- get some real live casino dice and balance them yourself ..... I am sure AHigh will let you borrow his expensive equipment and I will even show you some of my evidence I have collected if you start with the above
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 9:12:47 AM permalink
You want specific craps laws -- and that seems to be your number one issue.

Let me suggest this: the law need not be written down for the casinos and the players to follow it.

But if it were written down, what guarantee would there be that it is followed?

By the way, I still go by what the Enforcement Division says: it isn't necessary to write down all of the rules for playing the game of craps. And if you don't like it, don't play.

What I am waiting for is for you guys to NAME NAMES and DATES and TIMES. You think dice are biased? State your case. Be specific. What casino used what biased dice at what time, in what game, and prove it.
Ahigh
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March 8th, 2013 at 9:15:52 AM permalink
I can even have more of these balance devices made if someone wants to purchase one. I doubt the cost for a second unit would be more than $1,000.

I'm not doing this to make money, so any markup would be very minimal just to cover my time and hassle.
aahigh.com
Ahigh
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March 8th, 2013 at 9:23:53 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

What I am waiting for is for you guys to NAME NAMES and DATES and TIMES. You think dice are biased? State your case. Be specific. What casino used what biased dice at what time, in what game, and prove it.



Go to Fiesta Rancho and look for red transparent dice with serial numbers 11xx. That's the best lead that I currently have.

If you find a stick with bias, it will take a couple of hours to do the counts on random shooters. Then you might have a couple of hours to try to take advantage of it.

The entire thing is a 6-hour commitment, and 8 hours would be better. And you are limited to $250 max bets yielding at most a 2% player edge per roll in the field, which is about $5 per roll.

If you count 400 rolls for four hours and grind 400 rolls for four hours after that, you could walk with $2,000 profit (four units).

That's about the best case outcome. And you need a 40 unit bankroll to get that (about $10,000).

For the amount of money that people make who have a $10,000 bankroll to grind a $250 max bet sweat joint, it's just not a realistic endeavor.

A four-unit profit from a 40 unit bankroll for 8 hours of investment is what you're looking at. This is just my inexperienced take on how best to make the most money from this from an exploitation perspective.

I would say if you can make your $2,000 profit early, just walk!

Of course just sitting there counting for evidence and walking with the evidence would only take half as much time.

Either way, you have a real possibility to start doing the counts and then walking with no evidence at all.

It's a ton of work is the bottom line.
aahigh.com
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 10:13:14 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

Go to Fiesta Rancho and look for red transparent dice with serial numbers 11xx. That's the best lead that I currently have.



That's the best you have? And you just libeled an entire industry -- not to mention the Fiesta Rancho -- with it?

I told you before, charting the table will not hold up in court.
Ahigh
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March 8th, 2013 at 10:22:07 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

And you just libeled an entire industry?



What the hell? Where did I do that? Can you not tell me apart from Harley?

Check it out: all I did was I presented evidence that matched what Harley was saying.

You want to talk about libel or slander, maybe you should look a little more closely at yourself.

I have pointed out countless times that all of this is theory, and like on so many other occasions, all that I am doing is providing real world data and information.

Keep your accusations about me "libeled an entire industry" to yourself! All of my data is 100% correct, and that's as far as I am going!

Harley and I are two TOTALLY different people, in case you weren't aware.

The real story is that you want a conclusion without doing any work at all on your own. THEN you want to attack those who ARE doing the work!
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AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 10:43:24 AM permalink
Your work is inconclusive. Keep it to yourself until it is conclusive. You should not allege that a casino has biased dice without proof. Your charting idea is not proof. I am sure that folks at that casino will not appreciate your comments, and I am surprised the moderators didn't immediately remove your comment.

You tend to hide behind the shield of an investigator while at the same time you tell us that you are a dice influencer, controller, that you find bias, that casinos do not use accurate measuring tools, and so forth.

I don't have to investigate anything, because I do not believe there is any bias in casino dice and if there were a bias, I have never detected any effect of the bias. That is to say, I have been at tables where using the same dice shooters have 7'd out one after another and then another shooter went on to roll a monster hand.

You are making the allegation. Harley is making the allegation. The burden of proof is on you.

Harley raised the issue of weight regarding pips yet he has not yet responded to the challenges of his theory in that he can't present information about the weight of the pips and the dice material and what differences they might present.

What you are doing and saying on the Internet is irresponsible. No newspaper editor, or broadcast news producer would allow you to publish this information in a responsible news outlet. This is typical Internet forum fodder.

Thanks for responding to my invitation to take you and your wife to dinner tonight in Vegas. The private message feature here shows when the PMs are read. Your lack of response tells me you have no interest, so I didn't make a reservation.


I'm about to start my drive.
7craps
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March 8th, 2013 at 10:44:10 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

That's the best you have? And you just libeled an entire industry -- not to mention the Fiesta Rancho -- with it?

I told you before, charting the table will not hold up in court.

IMO,
One would have to call the police and take the suspected dice as evidence and the complaint is the casino is using unfair dice and are cheating by using them.
Problem here is in Nevada the casino can use any dice they so wish
because there are NO specs on what must be used as a minimum.

One can test the dice for weight, but they may weigh (say 9 grams) exactly the same as fair dice.
So the test would be on the weight of the pip material. Heavier than a fair die would be.
That would require destroying the dice to weigh the pips.
Now the evidence is gone and only the statistical data is left behind.
Like DNA test. It destroys the evidence if the sample is small.

In court the judge would just laugh as he KNOWS there are no laws on the books in Nevada stating what the dice must be as a minimum.

So the current NO law needs to be changed.

AlanM that should be a topic for a video you could create.
No one has to prove there ARE biased dice being knowingly used by the casino,
change the law (no law)
so it would be against the law to use biased dice on a Craps table. Set minimum standards as other states do.

If these biased dice also have a shorter measurement for the 1 and 6 face than the other 4 sides, now we have a flat,
and is that against any current Nevada current law?
Maybe Not for the casino, but for a player to introduce a gaffed dice, it is.
The casino did not make the dice, but does adding a serial number and a logo (by hot stamping)
on the 1 face change the dimensions enough or even the density for those faces??

Nevada needs to spell out the minimum rules for dice used at a Craps table
Harry Reid needs to play Craps
John McCain already does
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
7craps
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March 8th, 2013 at 10:51:35 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Harley raised the issue of weight regarding pips yet he has not yet responded to the challenges of his theory in that he can't present information about the weight of the pips and the dice material and what differences they might present.

I am sure he has the data for that. He is just one expert from his team of experts.
He wants to be sued so he can show his results in court, the only place where it would matter,
to get current no laws on Nevada dice changed.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 11:06:42 AM permalink
I don't think you need a law that says you expect the casino to run a fair game. This is more of a civil matter than a criminal matter. When you play in a casino you expect to play a fair game. You don't need a law for that. (By the way, this is the same mistaken concept that some might have about "dice sliding." When it is said that "dice sliding" is an illegal throw, it means it is not an allowable throw for the rules of the game -- it is not a criminal violation. So no law is needed. A "legal throw" meaning an allowable throw for craps is a throw where the dice bounce on the table and hit the back wall. We have too many "casino lawyers" here.)

You do not need the police.

If you suspect the game is unfair, you get a lawyer and you sue. you subpoena the dice used by the casino and the dice created by the manufacturer.

I suggest that the skeptics determine where the casinos buy their dice, contact the manufacturer and buy dice from them, and then test those dice extensively. And when I say "test those dice extensively" I don't mean chart the rolls. I mean take the darn dice apart and look for evidence of bias. It's the only thing that will stand up in court.

If you can determine by testing the dice that stamping a logo makes a difference then determine through testing that this is true.

So far all we have seen is melting, spinning and charting and none of those is conclusive evidence that wouldn't be laughed out of court.

If you can prove dice are biased, I will be first to publicize it. But I want to see proof, not conjecture.
Ahigh
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March 8th, 2013 at 11:27:21 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Your work is inconclusive.



Did you SERIOUSLY just now realize that? Did you think I was providing a proof? Did you REALLY think that I was INTENDING TO SAY THIS WAS A PROOF?

HOW MANY GODDAMN TIMES DO I HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS "YOU HAVE PROVED NOTHING" ARGUMENT?

So WHAT? I have proved nothing.

Dude!!!

Again, Harley is saying he has proof, not me. Get your facts straight!

We are still left with you saying what I have to do and what Harley has to do to prove something.

Check it out: YOU ARE WRONG. I do not have to do a damn thing! I could care less if there is proof or not at this point.

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE TO ME?! Maybe my edge is $0.04 cents per roll instead of $0.02 cents per roll?

I generally don't bet odds ANYWAY.

I don't care.

You whole attitude just annoys me, Alan.

Go and do it all yourself, and maybe you can get responses from other people like I get from you. Thankless accusatory responses. They're great!!!
aahigh.com
7craps
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March 8th, 2013 at 11:34:40 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

Go to Fiesta Rancho and look for red transparent dice with serial numbers 11xx. That's the best lead that I currently have.

If you find a stick with bias, it will take a couple of hours to do the counts on random shooters. Then you might have a couple of hours to try to take advantage of it.

The entire thing is a 6-hour commitment, and 8 hours would be better. And you are limited to $250 max bets yielding at most a 2% player edge per roll in the field, which is about $5 per roll.

If you count 400 rolls for four hours and grind 400 rolls for four hours after that, you could walk with $2,000 profit (four units).

That's about the best case outcome. And you need a 40 unit bankroll to get that (about $10,000).

For the amount of money that people make who have a $10,000 bankroll to grind a $250 max bet sweat joint, it's just not a realistic endeavor.

I think it would only need 100 rolls of data to see the bias. Because of the type of bias, that bias would remain for the next 600-700 rolls or until the dice are changed.
For the 9,8,8,8,8,9 bias at .74% Field edge the SD would be about $5800.
That would give about a 6-7% chance of busting a $10k bankroll by making 400 $250 wagers.
Need to make it at least $17k to minimize Ruin,
but even with that, 400 bets is a small sample with that small of an edge
You would still be down about 43% of every 400 roll sessions you play. Need more bets. How about team play?
(Kelly betting where you bet your edge, still lots of variance, is to bet .74% of your bankroll on each roll. That looks to be about $74 to start)

or start betting early.
600 bets doubles the chance of a $10k bank Ruin
So a much larger starting stake is needed. (SD bout $7500)
Time for that syndicate money to come in

One may need a higher edge (maybe 8,7,7,7,7,8 or better) and more bets for this grind
or just be prepared for the wild ride

I say play at CP when known bias exists
50k max bets (not sure that can be made at one roll in the Field)
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
tupp
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March 8th, 2013 at 11:50:47 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Your work is inconclusive. Keep it to yourself until it is conclusive. You should not allege that a casino has biased dice without proof.


This is an internet forum in which folks explore topics related to gambling. We are not in court nor are we in a news room.

I find Ahigh's results and charts interesting and decidedly "on-topic" to the subject of gambling. I am sure that there are others who feel the same, judging from the length of this thread.

Ahigh has not alleged nor accused any casinos of wrongdoing. He has merely reported facts, and has speculated on possibilities, just like most on this forum and on countless other Internet forums.

Furthermore, he has not initiated any personal attacks in this thread, although he constantly has to defend himself against such assaults.
Buzzard
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March 8th, 2013 at 11:56:03 AM permalink
" If you can prove dice are biased, I will be first to publicize it. But I want to see proof, not conjecture. "

You sure as hell won't see proof, or anything close to it, on this thread.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
7craps
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March 8th, 2013 at 12:02:30 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

If you can prove dice are biased, I will be first to publicize it. But I want to see proof, not conjecture.

That does not appear to be a main concern with the bias team
One of their Objectives
"To create a legal atmosphere in Nevada
(specific dice statutes similar to those in Colorado and Australia)
whereas fair dice are used 24/7 and enforced by the Nevada Gaming Commission."

This really is a very simple request.

In my reading of what the dice should be in Nevada, it only says (b is important)
NRS 465.085 Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction.

1. It is unlawful to manufacture, sell or distribute any cards, chips, dice, game or device which is intended to be used to violate any provision of this chapter.
2. It is unlawful to mark, alter or otherwise modify any associated equipment or gaming device, as defined in chapter 463 of NRS, in a manner that:
(a) Affects the result of a wager by determining win or loss; or
(b) Alters the normal criteria of random selection, which affects the operation of a game or which determines the outcome of a game.

for (b) there must be stated minimum tolerances for what that is.
What IS "normal criteria of random selection" without seeing any values presented.

each die face should be perfect at (say) .7500" from face to opposite face measurement. 1 to 6, 2 to 5 etc.
How far from perfect is allowed by Nevada law??

They state no values as far as my reading goes.

What if the dice measure .7501 for the 6 to 1 faces and .7496 for the two other face measurements.
Is that too much of a difference??
Is it "normal criteria of random selection"

We are talking about low quality Mexico and China dice being made.

"Six-ace flats will favor the 1 and 6 sides and work against the shooter in a game of Craps"
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dice-play/DiceCrooked.htm

In summary, one does not need to prove any bias.

Just how far from perfection do the dice have to be in order to be acceptable to use in a casino.
The current law above is silent on that.
and silence is golden for the casinos

Again, John McCain knows, but he is from another state than Nevada
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
Buzzard
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March 8th, 2013 at 12:06:07 PM permalink
" In summary, one does not need to prove any bias."

Yes, let's just pass a law to cure a "non-existent" problem. Likes we really need more laws and regulations.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
tupp
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March 8th, 2013 at 12:10:32 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

You sure as hell won't see proof, or anything close to it, on this thread.


Speaking of proof, could you please provide verification that you have deposited with an independent party your half of our $100 bet on the upcoming dice trial?
7craps
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March 8th, 2013 at 12:12:19 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

" In summary, one does not need to prove any bias."

Yes, let's just pass a law to cure a "non-existent" problem. Likes we really need more laws and regulations.

Then you could prove it.
If perfect dice are to be .7500" (say)

what is acceptable tolerances so the dice do NOT Alter the normal criteria of random selection
what is it ?
+/- .00015"
or
+/- .00025"
or something else
+/- X"
which could Alter the normal criteria of random selection

and we have not even started to ask about the weight of each die
Hey, South Park is on

http://www.worldgameprotection.com/archive/2009-05/casino-ology_may_09.pdf
"In most jurisdictions, dice that have sides that are outside ten 10,000ths of an inch are considered
"gaffed" or illegal to use. Dice that are twenty 10,000ths of an inch different are know in the
cheating world as "flats"."
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
Buzzard
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March 8th, 2013 at 12:30:29 PM permalink
I don't give a shit. The casino has no reason to use bias dice. If they did use them, dice setters and degenerates would be
winning, not whining !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Buzzard
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March 8th, 2013 at 12:31:10 PM permalink
Quote: tupp

Speaking of proof, could you please provide verification that you have deposited with an independent party your half of our $100 bet on the upcoming dice trial?


NO !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
7craps
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March 8th, 2013 at 12:40:37 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I don't give a shit.

of course you do. we all do do
Quote: Buzzard

The casino has no reason to use bias dice.

Sure they do, They are cheaper in quality and $$s to buy.
Increases the bottom line for a better year end company party.
And when used can make the drop and hold from the table even higher.
That is a proven fact because casinos do not want to use any players dice.
Quote: Buzzard

If they did use them, dice setters and degenerates would be winning, not whining !

Not all dice setters and degenerates are created equal.

You are right, I can't wait to win more $$ knowing biased dice are on the table.
I have all my data completed. Now to get a larger bankroll together. I have a few investors in mind.
Vegas in 2 weeks.
I do not care about how much others can win, just me.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
Buzzard
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March 8th, 2013 at 12:49:53 PM permalink
" That is a proven fact because casinos do not want to use any players dice. "

YEAH, Let the players provide the dice ! ROFLMAO

" I do not care about how much others can win, just me." Then might I suggest you shut-up.

Just a respectful suggestion and not an insult. It is not a joke Mission 146.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 12:59:32 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE TO ME?! Maybe my edge is $0.04 cents per roll instead of $0.02 cents per roll?



Ahigh, how do you get that edge in a negative expectation game? Do you get that edge from being a dice influencer or dice controller that you claim you are not?

Quote: Ahigh

You whole attitude just annoys me, Alan.

Of course it does. I don't agree with you.

Quote: Ahigh

Thankless accusatory responses. They're great!!!

I get it -- you want thanks. Thanks for your hard work, Ahigh.
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 1:06:02 PM permalink
Quote: tupp

Ahigh has not alleged nor accused any casinos of wrongdoing.



I'm confused? Why did Ahigh mention a particular casino and invite us (me) to go observe the dice there and discover how to win money from an alleged bias with particular dice with a particular partial code number?

I also enjoy Ahigh's exercise, but he is not the first to employ charting of tables. I will acknowledge that he is using the charting for the isolated purpose of finding out if the dice are biased. Others have used this fantasy to determine if tables are "hot" or "cold."

I am not attacking him personally. In fact, I like the guy. I even invited him out to dinner tonight (but he didn't have the courtesy to respond). We also made plans twice before to meet up -- but we never did. I wonder if Ahigh doesn't want to meet up for some reason?? Anyway I digress. This is not a personal attack, but a disagreement over his claims and the evidence he presents here.
7craps
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March 8th, 2013 at 1:08:08 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

" That is a proven fact because casinos do not want to use any players dice. "

YEAH, Let the players provide the dice ! ROFLMAO

I know... funny!
A billionaire degenerate (yes, there are many)
walks into a Las Vegas Strip casino and wants to buy-in for $1 billion dollars,
but will only play with his dice and on a table with no other players.

Casino manager says he can have his own table but we can not use your dice, just ours. It is the law.

The rich dude says he bought his dice from the exact manufacturer the casino buys theirs from.
That is because the rich dude OWNS the dice manufact company.

Casino manager makes a phone call.
We can not use your dice, Sir. It is against the rules.

Ok says the rich dude, get me your best stick of serial number 1099 and the color must be pink.

Casino manager makes another phone call.

The tables have turned
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 1:08:17 PM permalink
7craps thanks for posting the regulations. "random selection" is random selection. tolerances are not important. It's either random or it isn't. if not random, it's rigged.
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 1:11:01 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I don't give a shit. The casino has no reason to use bias dice. If they did use them, dice setters and degenerates would be
winning, not whining !



Obviously this is why the caisnos want to use fair dice. As soon as the word got out that the dice had a certain bias, the smart money would be betting the bias.

Are we finished yet?

Good job Buzzard summing it up.
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 1:13:39 PM permalink
Quote: 7craps

I know... funny!
A billionaire degenerate (yes, there are many)
walks into a Las Vegas Strip casino and wants to buy-in for $1 billion dollars,
but will only play with his dice and on a table with no other players.

Casino manager says he can have his own table but we can not use your dice, just ours. It is the law.

The rich dude says he bought his dice from the exact manufacturer the casino buys theirs from.
That is because the rich dude OWNS the dice manufact company.

Casino manager makes a phone call.
We can not use your dice, Sir. It is against the rules.

Ok says the rich dude, get me your best stick of serial number 1099 and the color must be pink.

Casino manager makes another phone call.

The tables have turned



WHAT IS THIS ABOUT???
7craps
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March 8th, 2013 at 1:18:30 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

7craps thanks for posting the regulations. "random selection" is random selection. tolerances are not important. It's either random or it isn't. if not random, it's rigged.

But there are tolerances according to Bill Zender in the pdf I linked to.
and Bill Zender should know
are they +/-.0005?

Zender calls +/- .0010 "gaffed" or illegal to use.

Where are the standards for Nevada dice in Nevada law.
They must be somewhere.
One says, yeah .0005 another says .0003

What would a judge in court have to say over that?
Set the standards
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
AlanMendelson
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March 8th, 2013 at 1:40:46 PM permalink
Yes, I think setting some manufacturing standards would help. But when it comes down to whether or not dice are biased the question is was anything done to the dice so they don't have a random result? For example, as you suggest, were they manufactured improperly? Hence my suggestion that the dice should be examined. Are they off center, are they weighted, are they off balance, are they magnetized, are they guided by sonar? Those are the real questions. "Charts of results" don't mean the dice have been altered. You can use your charts to raise red flags, but they are not proof of anything.
7craps
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March 8th, 2013 at 2:05:17 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

For example, as you suggest, were they manufactured improperly?
Hence my suggestion that the dice should be examined.

Does not have to be improperly. Tools do wear out also and the quality of any product can suffer.

But against what "standards"
That still brings us back to how far off is too far off to where all 6 faces do not have an equal chance of facing up.

I have only 5 casino dice from a new stick from Vegas in 2003. (I live in SoCal)
(I have a friend with over 400 used casino dice and some new casino dice sticks I can test next week)

My micrometer measures all mine between .0001 and .0002 off from perfect.
(It only goes to .0001)
Are these dice going to produce acceptable random results for every face?
I say yes from my reading.

how much difference does it take to not produce random results with a certain percentage range? at .0005 off? at .0006 off??
again Zender calls .0010 "gaffed" or illegal to use.

This can be calculated exactly BTW to very tight values

But I have not checked the balance or the weight.


In my car repair days (I owned my own auto repair shop)
I used to build and set up many gear sets and rear ends.
I just hated it when a customer would bring in cheap quality ring and pinion sets from a maunfact that is known to produce poor quality parts.

I only worked with maybe .00X" +/- .003" 3 thousandths of an inch and
I could tell they were harder to set up to proper specifications (like your spark plug gap)
Even the thickness from the ring gear teeth was not even causing noise, uneven wear and short life span.
and they would not last as long as factory gear sets or even the top quality gear sets.

Pay for the best and cry once I still say

Same with dice
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
Ahigh
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March 8th, 2013 at 2:25:11 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I don't give a shit. The casino has no reason to use bias dice. If they did use them, dice setters and degenerates would be
winning, not whining !



You are wrong. If it is in fact the less expensive dice that are more prone to having bias, that is a reason!

I think it's quite possible that the casinos have less of a clue about what is going on than Alan Mendelson!

Penny wise and pound foolish. If it ain't broke don't fix it! Holds are up! Dice costs are down! Problem solved.

If there is exposure, though, I am sure someone reading along will exploit it soon enough.
aahigh.com
thecesspit
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March 8th, 2013 at 2:33:46 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

7craps thanks for posting the regulations. "random selection" is random selection. tolerances are not important. It's either random or it isn't. if not random, it's rigged.



A biased dice may still be random.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
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