Blackjack game with 0.75% player advantage
Quote: Scottimus1Had the same exact thing happen... see following response:
23:14:15 Mission2Game: Hello and welcome to Mission2Game!
23:14:16 S****: Hello, I'm looking for assistance
23:14:21 Mission2Game: A pleasure having you with us today!
23:14:27 Mission2Game: Let me tell you how you can start winning!
23:14:31 Collin Gray: Hey S****
23:14:33 Mission2Game: Just start chatting to find out more!
23:14:46 Collin Gray: Please tell me how may i help you today
23:15:18 S****: Hello, I was playing Jacks or Better, held a straight that I was dealt (A, 2, 3, 4, 5) proceeded to click deal, and wasn't paid
23:16:37 Collin Gray: That is because S**** our rules do not consider that combination a valid straight
23:17:19 S****: How can that not be a valid straight?
23:18:09 Collin Gray: The Ace can enter the combination of a straight only with high cards
23:18:50 Collin Gray: Right now we are reviewing if your combination should be put in or not and we are gathering as many opinions as we can
how can they debate on whether or not A2345 is a straight or not. what kind of crap is this?! Too many red flags for this casino to be legit.
Quote: ajemeisterhow can they debate on whether or not A2345 is a straight or not. what kind of crap is this?! Too many red flags for this casino to be legit.
I wonder if they treat a steel wheel as an A-high flush instead of a straight flush too.
Quote: beachbumbabs01:51:58 Louis: Hello, Welcome to Mission2Game. How are you ?
This "Mission" business is bugging the hell out of me. Is Pierce moonlighting for them ???!!
Quote: 1BBAnyone double A,8 and get a 2? Did they call it 21 or 11?
They probably use the ploppy phrase "the 2 is like the dealers ace" then count it as 11 giving you 30. So now it's a bust!
Quote: RomesEdit: Also, I checked with the customer service rep in the chat available through the client and confirmed the phone call I received was indeed from their representative.
Good. That which you described raised red flags with me.
Quote: WizardPlease let us know what they come back with. I've never heard of a game where a wild doesn't count in any position. If there must be such an awful rule, it should be disclosed. However, I'd like to give the casino a full opportunity to state their version. Information given via live chat is often incorrect, in my experience.
Especially if they have Statistics degrees.
Quote: mustangsallyi see no smoke
you see some smoke ?
tells me
you are smoking something
Sally
The smoke I was referring to was Axel's story that he never won twice in a row in 30 attempts. What I was trying to say was that my attempt to corroborate his experience didn't work.
Also, somebody asked me about my bet unit. It was $1 or $2.
Quote: ajemeisterhow can they debate on whether or not A2345 is a straight or not. what kind of crap is this?! Too many red flags for this casino to be legit.
And I thought the clown who decided A2345 was the second highest straight in pai gow poker didn't understand the rules of poker.
Quote: Wizard...Also, somebody asked me about my bet unit. It was $1 or $2.
Try $20 BJ so $40 red/black bet... You won't win.
Also, just played some Surrender BJ for 91 hands. Stats anyone?
WIN: 34
LOSE: 67
Player BJ: 2
Dealer BJ: 3
Player Bust: 15.79%. Note: This does NOT count hands that started soft or less than hard 12, which busting on was plentiful. This should be more around a little above 20%.
Dealer Bust: 15.40%, includes ALL starting cards.
Average Bet: $15
NET LOSS: $305, after my two BJ's (luckily on $20) and one or two split/double wins, etc.
For the math record... EV for this after 91 hands = (91)(15)(.0075) = $10.24, with a Standard Deviation (SD) = Sqrt(91)*(16.5) = $157.40... so I'm 2 SD's out in the negative. Guess that's better than I'm used to... 7 SD or 8 SD out.
I busted on 85% of my stiff's (12-16) which my average hand was 14. I really wish I could use the % info they give you better. I made 17-21 a COMBINED total of 56% of the time. Sounds great, right (not really)? I'm willing to wager that I won under 20% of the time I made one of those hands. The hands I won in this session was when I was again dealt 14 and the dealer luckily had a bust card and actually busted. For example, I had 5.27% of the time I made 21. I did not win ONE time when I made 21. The dealer BJ'd twice on my 21's, which is a loss, and I pushed another couple (always from dealer stiffs).
Wizard, did you take deviations in to account at all? Sure it's 1 deal per shuffle, but if it is SD, and you have 9-2 v 3, that's TC +2. The deviation to stand 12v3 is TC +2, so you wouldn't hit... etc. There's others too that I've seen come up (3 card 9 vs dealer 7, TC +3 9 doubles to 7).
Quote: mustangsallyi see you are showing your results as though it is not even possible this could happen unless cheating is the only way it could happen
and i called you on it ;)
1 in 500 happens every day
100 million playing 30 rounds of 50/50 game
200k never sees 2 in a row wins
but you are who you are
well
BBBBBBB BBBBBB
BRBRBRB RBRBRB
the above 3 sequences all have the same probability of happening
as a matter of fact every 13 event sequence are all equal
wow!
but because you bet B and R made a few runs (the trend was R and you bet against that trend)
the probabilities are now not equal because you said what again?
thank you for asking to be on my AP team
your request is denied
as the rules are some one already on the team must offer your name to start the process
but best of luck to you, and i know you need all the luck you can get
Sally
By the way, Sally, I just love your math! Are you really trying to argue 30 blacks (or reds) in a row is normal? :laugh:
Quote: RomesTry $20 BJ so $40 red/black bet... You won't win.
Thanks for your continued playing and reports. I'm very interested in proving a case of unfair play.
I just did as you suggested and doubled up on six $40 wins. My results were three wins and three losses. I know it isn't a big sample size, but I already wasn't getting 18 losses in a row, or whatever you got.
However, don't get discouraged. I'm very open to continued tests.
Bbb, any response on your email to them?
Quote: WizardThanks for your continued playing and reports. I'm very interested in proving a case of unfair play...
I'm intrigued if you know or have done this math before... Here's another report of 100 hands. This was my best run yet, and I'm down $40 lol. Finally down within 1 SD!
In 100 hands, what are the odds that 42% of my hands will be 12-16? I'm pushing and losing as often as I'm winning on 19-21...
Total Hands: 100
Wins: 40
Losses: 52
Surrenders: 8
Player BJ: 6
Dealer BJ: 2
Dealer Bust Card Hand Made: 18
Dealer Bust Card Hand Bust: 15
Number of stiff hands (12-16): 42
Number of 12's: 12
Number of doubles/splits: 9
Number of doubles/splits lost: 5
(Not counting blackjacks)
19-20-21 Wins: 13
19-20-21 Pushes: 4
19-20-21 Losses: 8
Average bet: Probably about $17.50... more $20 bets than $10, but 20-30% were $10.
Net Loss: Down $40. A couple of my doubles at $20 actually saved me. This is the 3rd or 4th session I've had playing a "Player Advantage" game and losing =(.
Quote: RomesIn 100 hands, what are the odds that 42% of my hands will be 12-16?
Counting 6-6, 7-7, and 8-8 as stiff, the probability per hand is 0.387631976. Given that you should have received 38.76, getting 42 seems well within normal range, just eyeballing it.
sure, talk is cheap and imo,Quote: RSBy the way, Sally, I just love your math!
no one loves another person's math, they admire it.
but thank you
the poster that said he never won 2 in a row over 30 50/50 betsQuote: RSAre you really trying to argue 30 blacks (or reds) in a row is normal? :laugh:
I was pointing out, as many great math experts have in the past too,
the 2^30 = 1,073,741,824
possible sequences
all have the same probability of showing
imagine that!
which of the 4 sequences below is more likely to occur in a 50/50 game?
BBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBB
RRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRR
RRBRBBBRBR RBBBRBRBRR RRBBRBRBRR <<<<-- i made this one up on the fly!
RBRBRBRBRB RBRBRBRBRB RBRBRBRBRB
what looks normal to some
does not look normal to others
where there is smoke
Quote: GWAEI have been getting 5 emails a day from this casino group for the last 6 months. They have no umsubscribe button. That alone makes me never want to use them.
Bbb, any response on your email to them?
Quote: andysifany follow ups on that "wild on first reel doesn't count" story?
The email I sent was rejected for the file size being too big, and the bounce went to my junk mail, where I didn't see it until I went looking. Which means they haven't seen the email yet, or the pictures (in total about 13 MB; not much by today's standards, but who knows).
So I've just sent them 5 emails, 1 per picture, and references to the event so they can look at it. Re-start the clock on their response time, please. I will keep the forum posted.
teddys, I'd like to know if you're successful in getting them to send your initial deposit back, please.
22:46:38 Barbara: Can I ask you something else, please?
22:46:41 Steve: And may your lucky streak continue! I see you're doing good!
22:46:44 Steve: Sure.
22:47:12 Barbara: The promotion I'm on right now, the 777 match, is perhaps not valid for all games?
22:50:27 Steve: I see your balance at $2500.
22:51:56 Barbara: Yes, my total balance is 2508.30. My cash balance is 110, and the bonus is 2938.30. Most of my play was making the bonus balance go up and down, but something very late in my play took $75 of the cash.
22:53:21 Steve: The bonus and cash fractions of your balance will change over time. But in the moment you will have finished the playthrough, all your money will be in your cash balance, don't worry.
22:57:10 Barbara: Ah, ok. So, to summarize, the bonus is valid for all games. But for unknown reasons, the cash balance fluctuates, I'm guessing it continues to lose value? And that will continue until I complete the playthrough, at which time any remaining balance will be all cash. Even though I've not had my balance go down to where the cash is affected, the bonus money doesn't have to get lost before my cash is withdrawn. Is that correct?
23:00:21 Steve: Valid for all games, yes. The fluctuation has an algorithm depends on the playthrough as far as I know.
23:00:56 Steve: Yes any remaining balance will be cash when playthrough is complete, you won't have any bonus left there and the money will be withdrawable.
Quote: beachbumbabsRe: the original game rules Wizard listed. I split 8-8 against 2, got another 8 on one of them, and it offered me the option (which I took) of splitting to a third hand. I had a similar hand with Aces last night, but was not offered the re-split. I don't know if what he wrote (first post in this thread) about resplits was only meant to refer to Aces, but as it reads it's referring to all resplits, so thought I'd mention it. FWIW, lost all 3 hands. X:\
I was not allowed to resplit 7s. Odd that you were able to resplit your 8s.
Quote: DeucekiesI was not allowed to resplit 7s. Odd that you were able to resplit your 8s.
That's weird. Babs experience with Aces is a fairly common rule change though.
Quote: beachbumbabsAnother difference from the rules the Wizard quoted: I split 8's, got a 6 on one (against a 4) and stood, then got a 3 on the other. No double down was offered; hit or stand was all. I hit, got another 3, dealer went 8,Q to bust. But no double after split.
So the rule sheet doesn't match actual play? Ugh.
But given the VP debacle, I can't say I'm surprised.
Climbed well through 800 hands, last 200 have been flat. Current BR $3345.80. Playthrough is at $5,969.50 out of $57,882.00 or a little more than 10%.
Still logging each hand, but not bothering this thread with the numbers. If someone wants a breakdown, PM me.
Does anybody know how long I have to play this, if there's a deadline at all? Thanks.
Quote: RSI dont think BBB is playing the correct game.
I was just thinking that. There are five blackjack games and the rules vary. I explain the details in my OP.
Quote: WizardI was just thinking that. There are five blackjack games and the rules vary. I explain the details in my OP.
I'll go back and re-read, then. Thanks! I'm playing Royal for $25/hand because Classic is limited to $20/hand. But I'll look again.
"Thank you for choosing to play in our casino.
Regarding your request, I must inform you that our rules state that the ace is not considered to substitute one, within a flush. We undersatnd your frustration and in the future we will look to see if we should change something within the rules.
Have a great day!
With kind regards,
Laura.
We hope this response has sufficiently answered your questions. If not, please do not send another email. Instead, reply to this email."
1) Ace can not be counted as low. So apparently A-2-3-4-5 is NOT a straight. Better yet, Ad-2d-3d-4d-5d would not be a straight flush then.
2) They are clearly incompetent when it comes to gaming, as she even said "flush" in the above message when she meant to say straight.
3) So now we know their JoB cheats, their slots cheat (via info from Babs) and there's a wide debate on whether or not their BJ/Gamble feature is rigged.
At what point can we rightfully call shenanagains and all get our money back?
Quote: RomesAt what point can we rightfully call shenanagains and all get our money back?
Money Back. PMSL and ROFLMAO.
I wonder how much money in total has gone their way from WOV members?
Tio those wrestling with the wagering requirements, I advocate forget trying to flat bet your way through it and aggressively bet a fixed percentage. If you truly have an edge, that percentage should grow in cash terms.
Quote: OnceDearMoney Back. PMSL and ROFLMAO.
I wonder how much money in total has gone their way from WOV members?
Tio those wrestling with the wagering requirements, I advocate forget trying to flat bet your way through it and aggressively bet a fixed percentage. If you truly have an edge, that percentage should grow in cash terms.
$0.00 from me :-)
I'm in for $700. Also, they charged me more than the amount of the deposits on my credit card by about $10-$20 each deposit. Why do online casinos do this?!Quote: OnceDearMoney Back. PMSL and ROFLMAO.
I wonder how much money in total has gone their way from WOV members?
Tio those wrestling with the wagering requirements, I advocate forget trying to flat bet your way through it and aggressively bet a fixed percentage. If you truly have an edge, that percentage should grow in cash terms.
I tried to make another $200 deposit this morning and it said "customer limits exceeded." Whatever that means.
Quote: teddysI tried to make another $200 deposit this morning and it said "customer limits exceeded." Whatever that means.
That means they care about your well-being. :)
The last hundred:
W= 21. L= 62. P= 11. R= 8. FWIW, nearly all the pushes were on hands I was well ahead, ie 20 v 4 and they hit to a push.
Doubles: 7. W = 1. L = 6.
Splits: 3. W = 0. L - 6.
Player BJ: 2. Dealer BJ: 4.
BR now $1533.30, so I've lost slightly more than my original buy-in, though I lost enough on slots and roulette (wanted to test both) that BJ is still slightly positive.
Playthrough is at $7,054.50.
Quote: teddysI'm in for $700. Also, they charged me more than the amount of the deposits on my credit card by about $10-$20 each deposit. Why do online casinos do this?!
I tried to make another $200 deposit this morning and it said "customer limits exceeded." Whatever that means.
Are you some sort of masochist?
No online casino's that I've dealt with charge anything for deposits or withdrawals, either by BACS or PayPal, even though they incur costs of doing so.
Las Vegas USA online casino did this too. They charged $73.33 on top of a $1,000.00 deposit and $36 on top of two $500 deposits. Actually, that is why my money is being held up because I charged back those overcharges and they then locked my account.Quote: OnceDearAre you some sort of masochist?
No online casino's that I've dealt with charge anything for deposits or withdrawals, either by BACS or PayPal, even though they incur costs of doing so.
I've been told I was not supposed to dispute the overcharges and just eat the extra amount charged. I didn't gamble online much until this point. I wanted to try some of the Wizard-approved casinos and bonuses.
Quote: teddysI tried to make another $200 deposit this morning.
That bugs me. This establishment already smells as fishy as **** but you want to give them more money?
Starting BR=1533.30. Ending BR = 228.30. Same lopsided nonsense. Playthrough = 8,029.50. So it seems quite doubtful I'm going to make it.
Game crashed again on hand 296 and ate my bet. I haven't asked for it back yet. Taking a break. Still no response from the emails and pics I sent in reference to the first reel wilds not wild, but the emails did not get rejected (files were apparently small enough sent individually).
FWIW, I looked at about 12 of the 5 reel games. They all appear to have nearly identical math/reel symbol frequencies, all had no wild first reel (as cust svc told me via chat), nearly identical bonus games, just different shells on the same basic engine as far as I can tell.
Quote: teddysLas Vegas USA online casino did this too. They charged $73.33 on top of a $1,000.00 deposit and $36 on top of two $500 deposits. Actually, that is why my money is being held up because I charged back those overcharges and they then locked my account.
I've been told I was not supposed to dispute the overcharges and just eat the extra amount charged. I didn't gamble online much until this point. I wanted to try some of the Wizard-approved casinos and bonuses.
LMAO, that is great.
Sir, don't worry about the extra money we charged you, you can just eat that money. Thanks and have a nice day.
Quote: Romes
At what point can we rightfully call shenanagains and all get our money back?
I can not figure out what is funnier. This or Teddy being told to just suck it up.
Why would you think a non regulated casino would every give money back? If they are willing to rip you off, they are willing to keep your money.
Quote: GWAELMAO, that is great.
Sir, don't worry about the extra money we charged you, you can just eat that money. Thanks and have a nice day.
Quote: MaxPenThis thread is exactly why I never consider playing online.
Exactly. And no matter who endorses it.
Quote: beachbumbabsAfter the mess above, I went to the Surrender game and flatbet $15 for 300 hands.
Starting BR=1533.30. Ending BR = 228.30. Same lopsided nonsense. Playthrough = 8,029.50. So it seems quite doubtful I'm going to make it.
Game crashed again on hand 296 and ate my bet. I haven't asked for it back yet. Taking a break. Still no response from the emails and pics I sent in reference to the first reel wilds not wild, but the emails did not get rejected (files were apparently small enough sent individually).
FWIW, I looked at about 12 of the 5 reel games. They all appear to have nearly identical math/reel symbol frequencies, all had no wild first reel (as cust svc told me via chat), nearly identical bonus games, just different shells on the same basic engine as far as I can tell.
Jesus babs... So in 300 hands, FLAT BETTING $15/hand, you lost $1,305?? 87 unit downswing in 300 hands flat betting...
EV = (300)(15)(.0075) = +$33.75
SD = Sqrt(300)*(1.1)(15) = Sqrt(300)*(16.5) = $285.79
Thus, you're a little over 4.5 SD's from your expected value. Anything over 3 and I consider it pretty rare and should pretty much never happen. Considering I was out 7 SD one session and 8 SD another, this should be mathematical proof that the game cheats. Perhaps it doesn't cheat EVERY session, but this should not be happening in a supposed player advantage game. I officially call shenanagains.
Quote: GWAE...Why would you think a non regulated casino would every give money back? If they are willing to rip you off, they are willing to keep your money.
If we have the Wizards Protection (denoted in the first pot) and we've mathematically proved the games can't be beat (and half of them straight CHEAT, like their slots and JoB) then there should be some way, correct?
"I understand the confusion that this may rise.Right now this is the rule for the game, but we will certainly take your point of view and others into consideration. Regarding the gamble feature, it pays as it states two on one as it doubles your bet.
All of our games have different contribution towards the wagering.Slots games have 100% contribution towards the wagering that means for each $100 wagered, $100 will go toward the contribution. Table games however have a different contribution and for each $100 wagered, only $20 will go towards the wagering. You can find all this out on our website under promotions, read more.
Just to show you that you appreciate you as we appreciate all our customers, I will add to your account, not $10, but $20.
Thank you!
Have a great day!
If you have anything to replay, please send us an e-mail!
Laura.
We hope this response has sufficiently answered your questions. If not, please do not send another email. Instead, reply to this email."
So they clearly don't understand english... Paying 2-1 mean we double your money! You bet $10, you get $20, that's 2-1 apparently!!! We should all feel lucky... a 1-1 PAYOUT means you don't get anything lol. You win a hand of BJ? That pays 1-1, so you bet $10 and won, here's your $10 back, you big winner you! lol
Quote: RomesJesus babs... So in 300 hands, FLAT BETTING $15/hand, you lost $1,305??
EV = (300)(15)(.0075) = +$33.75
SD = Sqrt(300)*(1.1)(15) = Sqrt(300)*(16.5) = $285.79
Thus, you're a little over 4.5 SD's from your expected value. Anything over 3 and I consider it a once in a lifetime event or cheating. Considering I was out 7 SD one session and 8 SD another, this should be mathematical proof that the game cheats. Perhaps it doesn't cheat EVERY session, but this should not be happening in a supposed player advantage game. I officially call shenanagains.
I agree.
I have the hand-by-hand breakdown, except I didn't record exact values on final hands; just win, loss, push, surrender, did note initial card(pre-decision) values, and used the Wizard's strategy card, as I think we should be able to compare EV with results if it's worth doing that. sample size is 1300 hands. I also have split/double values, blackjacks, and busts for all but the 1st hundred hands (didn't think to note busts at first; I have the rest).
My eyes are aching from rolling so much at the low-percentage wins. 6 v 20 lost a crazy amount of times (they got 21); etc.
If I'd had the patience for it, and it was probably necessary to really prove something, had I tracked exact cards (possibly even by suit), by the last 200 hands or so I could tell you every time whether the dealer was going to make an unlikely 21 or not. Think it was my subconscious seeing the same patterns, and I didn't even have to look to know it was a low-odds loss. Pretty much like a lot of slot machines have pre-set almost-wins, even though you see the animation, you start to see repeated placements of all 5 reels the same representing certain results. Like when you get 3 of something and they're in a particular configuration, reels 4 and 5 could be anything non-winning, but they're the same non-winning symbols. I think this game may be operating more like a slot with a pre-defined HE than a true random BJ game.
Anyway, I can put the data into a spreadsheet (my handwritten notes are full of shorthand and symbols) if anybody thinks the data I did collect is useful enough to be worth the effort. Let me know.
