Face up vs Face Down Pai Gow
Quote: flgamblerI would love to hear everyone’s thoughts on Face Up Pai Gow vs Face Down Pai Gow. I’ve never played face down but I’m assuming it has a lower house edge because of the A high Push? Or is it just lower because face up has the side bet. Thoughts?
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Very similar. I can’t remember which is higher!
But I’m SURE there are many more player strategy errors on face down, which will add to the casino’s take.
For players like me, I’ve made $$$ on dealer’s errors . There are numerous threads here discussing the ethics of such.
Not impossible, but certainly fewer player and dealer errors on face up.
If you don’t want to think at all, baccarat has a lower house edge than face up.
I like the occasional strategy decision in face down, especially when seeing other cards changes the necessary strategy.
Quote: acesideI also played a commission-free pai gow poker, in which a dealer queen high hand is a push. The house edge is higher than face-up Pai Gow poker.
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Invented by a deceased member, lovingly known as PaiGowDan.
Quote: acesideIn all these versions of Pai Gow poker, the joker card is partially wild, meaning it can be used as an Ace or a wild card to complete a straight or flush. I want a version in which the joker is fully wild.
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The main game would only be trivially affected with regards to house edge. Since house and player get the joker equally. But the bonus bet paytables would need to be totally changed.
Quote: acesideIn all the versions I played, side bets are based on all player seven cards. This is too simple. I want the side bets be based on the high hand five cards only.
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That would eliminate the really big jackpot type hands like 7 card straight flush, royal flush with royal match, perfect low, etc…
Some of the side bet players don’t want to give up that dream.
Quote: acesideTo renovate this game even further, I propose they get ride of this peculiar rule: a dealer Ace high hand is an automatic push, instead, make it mandatory for the 5-card poker hand side bet.
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The ace high push rule is what gives the casino its small house edge. It counteracts the huge edge the player would have when seeing the dealer’s hand before setting his own hand.
I don’t think ‘regular’ face down Pai Gow poker needs any renovating at all.
Quote: acesideIn all the versions I played, side bets are based on all player seven cards. This is too simple. I want the side bets be based on the high hand five cards only.
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Look up "Jackpot Pai Gow". In Jackpot, you have to keep your bonus in the high hand. The tradeoff is if you have a bonus in the high hand with a pair in the low hand, it doubles the payout. The biggest hand was I think a Royal Flush with Aces up.
Remarkably low house edge on that side bet, but I imagine everyone hated it because they couldn't set their hand to win.
Quote: DeucekiesQuote: acesideIn all the versions I played, side bets are based on all player seven cards. This is too simple. I want the side bets be based on the high hand five cards only.
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Look up "Jackpot Pai Gow". In Jackpot, you have to keep your bonus in the high hand. The tradeoff is if you have a bonus in the high hand with a pair in the low hand, it doubles the payout. The biggest hand was I think a Royal Flush with Aces up.
Remarkably low house edge on that side bet, but I imagine everyone hated it because they couldn't set their hand to win.
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If you play the main game optimally, the house edge on the side bet is usurious. I played it decades ago. (I didn’t play the side bet, but others did). I remember feeling bad for players keeping a flush when having two high pair, or keeping a full house together. Abysmal game when you need to hurt your main hand to win a bonus.
I imagine the house edge at Four Queens is higher with the 2+ rule, than with the A-high rule elsewhere (1.80% edge (found at WoO)).
My question: is there any place where this house edge has been documented? Very curious. Thanks,
Quote: IndyJeffreyAt Four Queens, there is a version where player loses when the dealer has 2+ Jacks. This replaces the "push with dealer A high"
I imagine the house edge at Four Queens is higher with the 2+ rule, than with the A-high rule elsewhere (1.80% edge (found at WoO)).
My question: is there any place where this house edge has been documented? Very curious. Thanks,
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Although WoO lists a house edge of 1.8% for face-up Pai Gow, I'm still not so confident about this number. When I played this game, I felt the house edge was higher than 1.8% when dealer used its electronic house way.
Quote: harrisAre Jackpot Pai Gow and Pot of Gold the only side bets that encourage sub-optimal basic strategy?
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Apparently not.
Quote: acesideI felt the house edge was higher than 1.8% when dealer used its electronic house way.
While this could have just been a streak of bad luck, do you think it's possible that the dealer was using a house way that's more advanced than the initial one they had dealers using before the electronic assistance? There is basically nothing stopping the casino from using a 100-page hyper-complex House Way to reach exact optimal strategy. In some other thread I was lamenting how House Ways aren't always public, and I see how your experience illustrates how the status quo regarding the legality of secret House Ways can create distrust in players.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (very unlikely) but I don't think the dealer using an even more optimal house way could change the house edge by more than 1%.
Casino dealers have very important jobs but programmers are generally better at combinatorial mathematics than the average casino dealers.
I have extensively studied the PGP dealer's strategy and the major inefficiencies are (of course) with the split/don't split strategies on 2 pair hands. Dealer's strategy could be improved with most impact on the KK-xx hands where xx is a low pair in the range of 22 to 66. But we are talking aggregate improvements in House Edge of a couple of tenths of one percent.
I spent way too much of my life analyzing Pai Gow Poker. But I did learn that improving the strategy for how to arrange very rare hands in PGP is a tough way to affect the outcome of your gambling sessions.
Quote: harrisAre Jackpot Pai Gow and Pot of Gold the only side bets that encourage sub-optimal basic strategy?
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Texas Shootout. Also Ultimate Texas Hold’em if you are required to bet the Play bet to get paid on the Trips bet.
There are too many combinations to determine a true house edge. Instead it’s calculated by a simulation.
Anyway, it sure seems like the dealer having a Pai Gow makes it more likely that other players have Pai gows. The A high Pai Gow as an automatic push can help you turn a loss into a push.
I wish casinos would have both versions available, but it seems like that ship has sailed.
Quote: FinsRuleOne of the interesting things about Pai Gow is that unlike almost every other game, the house edge is an approximation.
There are too many combinations to determine a true house edge. Instead it’s calculated by a simulation.
Anyway, it sure seems like the dealer having a Pai Gow makes it more likely that other players have Pai gows. The A high Pai Gow as an automatic push can help you turn a loss into a push.
I wish casinos would have both versions available, but it seems like that ship has sailed.
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I believe this is not true. JB calculated the computer perfect house edge for Pai Gow Poker using a looping code (and a lot of time). I believe that info is still part of the WOO site entry for Pai Gow Poker.
I have a large spreadsheet that calculates all the combinations for the dealer of Pai Gow Poker using the now defunct House Way for Trump casino in A C. It uses lots of suit-folding but can accommodate information on 'dead cards" that you see in other hands. I used it as a hand evaluator.
It is true that rigorous calculation of PGP house edge depends upon the casino House Way" for arranging the dealer's hand. It used to vary between casinos and is increasingly not published and not disclosed by the casinos anymore.
Quote: gordonm888It used to vary between casinos and is increasingly not published and not disclosed by the casinos anymore.
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Is this to deter advantage players? Or to avoid getting in trouble when the dealer doesn't use the house way?
Quote: harrisyes it's called Dealer Open Pai Gow
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I have another idea to renovate this game. If the dealer and the player hands are of equal rank, it’s a tie for this specific hand. For face-up Pai Gow, there is absolutely no need to keep this strange rule of dealer wining the tie hand.
Win-win,
Win-lose,
Lose-win,
Lose-lose.
In the second case, we have five additional possibilities:
Win-tie,
Tie-win,
Tie-tie,
Tie-lose,
Lose-tie.
Player pushes only on these three possibilities:
Win-lose,
Lose-win,
Tie-tie.
Quote: acesidePlayer pushes only on these three possibilities:
Win-lose,
Lose-win,
Tie-tie.
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Player pushes on 'win-tie', no?
And player loses on 'tie-lose', agree?
Quote: IndyJeffreyQuote: acesidePlayer pushes only on these three possibilities:
Win-lose,
Lose-win,
Tie-tie.
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Player pushes on 'win-tie', no?
And player loses on 'tie-lose', agree?
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Also, player does NOT push on tie-tie! Players loses on tie-tie.
Quote: IndyJeffreyQuote: acesidePlayer pushes only on these three possibilities:
Win-lose,
Lose-win,
Tie-tie.
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Player pushes on 'win-tie', no?
And player loses on 'tie-lose', agree?
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I was thinking about my new renovated Pai Gow game, in which I discarded the original rule that dealer push hand is counted as a dealer winning one, either Low or High hand.
