Brand New Counter - $40,000 bankroll - What should be my bet spread and at what table minimum?

Quote: stabworld

Do you think it's worth it trying to play there again after some time passes, just unrated and maybe dressed a little different, like a baseball cap to try to conceal partially my face? I was conteplating doing this at the first casino I was flat-betted at. It's been probably about 2 months already.

No. Although you can legally play blackjack, bet whatever you want, and not identify yourself, I would avoid that particular casino altogether. You get caught breaking their rules, they will trespass you. And that could be a lifetime, and maybe you'd wanna hit them again next decade. If you do go back, make sure it's on a shift where no one knows you.
I'm not sure where you play. But in some places I go to, I am one of the only serious counters they've ever noticed, and I'm the highest roller in the building. Playing unrated doesn't matter. They use surveillance to figure out my name before they back me off. The smaller the place, the larger the NO.

Depends on the store and quality of game. If it's pretty marginal anyways, I wouldn't go back if I've been backed off. If its not a tiny store and it's been a couple months, I just avoid the shift or personnel involved with backoff and don't play a lengthy session. The "maybe you get trespassed and can't play there in 5 years" angle, I guess thats just a judgment call you have to make about how much value there is to have longevity in a place anyways, and if you mind travelling. If there's a 6:5 sign or awful pen on that game in five years you wouldn't want to play there anyways. I try to balance not taking excessive risk of backoff with taking the max of what I can get when I can get it.

Quote: stabworld

Do you think it's worth it trying to play there again after some time passes, just unrated and maybe dressed a little different, like a baseball cap to try to conceal partially my face? I was conteplating doing this at the first casino I was flat-betted at. It's been probably about 2 months already.

Definitely worth it, but after enough time! Also, do you recall what shift you were backed off on? I'd try to go at a different time of day with a different shift. Do they have other pits you can play in as well? Lastly, if this was the high limit room with $100 min you like to play, that kind of narrows you down a little =/, so good luck.

Quote: Romes

Definitely worth it, but after enough time! Also, do you recall what shift you were backed off on? I'd try to go at a different time of day with a different shift. Do they have other pits you can play in as well? Lastly, if this was the high limit room with $100 min you like to play, that kind of narrows you down a little =/, so good luck.

This casino has multiple pits, its a very large casino. The thing is, I wasn't actually approached at any 1 pit, they followed me 30 minutes after my session into the poker room, while I was playing rated there (That's most likely how they found me). They asked the poker room floor if I was there, they didn't even tell him why, they came to the poker table I was playing at, but sort of in the background, and the poker floor quietly told me that the 2 gentlemen want to speak to me. After the 2 gentlemen in suits flat betted me, the poker room floor whom I known for several years, apologized to me, he didn't re'alize what they were going to talk to me about. He was going on how he thought it was kind of cool how I count cards, and thats how he thought I built my poker bankroll all these years. I told him I just started counting cards only a few months ago. He was kind of interested on how to count, and was asking me a lot of questions about it, we talked for like 20 minutes, he went on to tell me that he was a blackjack dealer decades ago, but they never spent as much time as they do know trying to deter card counters, he thinks its kind of silly.

Thing is this casino has insanely good penetration, just that it's a H17 game for the level I play, but DAS, and late surrender .57% house edge. This game is far better than these games out here in AC, that I been playing the last 2-3 months. I feel I need a break from AC and to explore into a different setting with better games. These AC games have been beating me up the last few weeks. I'm just trying to remember what shift it was on, when I was backed off. I know it definitely wasn't the night shift. It was early in the morning, I just don't remember if it was the graveyard or the day shift. I didn't keep records of the shifts I played at the time. Now I do.

Quote: mcallister3200

Depends on the store and quality of game. If it's pretty marginal anyways, I wouldn't go back if I've been backed off. If its not a tiny store and it's been a couple months, I just avoid the shift or personnel involved with backoff and don't play a lengthy session. The "maybe you get trespassed and can't play there in 5 years" angle, I guess thats just a judgment call you have to make about how much value there is to have longevity in a place anyways, and if you mind travelling. If there's a 6:5 sign or awful pen on that game in five years you wouldn't want to play there anyways. I try to balance not taking excessive risk of backoff with taking the max of what I can get when I can get it.

My plan was to play very short sessions, but to get max playing time, play each pit on every shift. What I am not sure of is, are there separate surveillance observing play in each pit? or is it the same surveillance team watching all pits in the casino? I wonder what the norm is in large casino's.

If you stay long enough they order a skills check and take it from there. If you hit and run, they have the ability to put multiple visits together to get a picture of what you're doing. Even in the largest casino in the world there is eventually nowhere to hide.

Quote: 1BB

If you stay long enough they order a skills check and take it from there. If you hit and run, they have the ability to put multiple visits together to get a picture of what you're doing. Even in the largest casino in the world there is eventually nowhere to hide.

In the hit and run instance - wouldn't it be harder to track multiple sessions on different visits if playing unrated?

Quote: stabworld

In the hit and run instance - wouldn't it be harder to track multiple sessions on different visits if playing unrated?

Harder yes, but not as hard as you may think. Remember, the red flag is raised as soon as the player rating is declined. Who does that?

One mistake I've seen from the short session player is returning to the same casino too often. If you do not have access to multiple casinos you must use restraint.

Quote: 1BB

Harder yes, but not as hard as you may think. Remember, the red flag is raised as soon as the player rating is declined. Who does that?

One mistake I've seen from the short session player is returning to the same casino too often. If you do not have access to multiple casinos you must use restraint.

In your opinion, what is too early?

I go to AC every week, and play in every casino on every shift each week. I play rated 100% of the time, for comp room and comp dollar purposes (as well as giveaways/promotions).

Quote: stabworld

In your opinion, what is too early?

I go to AC every week, and play in every casino on every shift each week. I play rated 100% of the time, for comp room and comp dollar purposes (as well as giveaways/promotions).

In the 2 and a half months I played in AC, I have just about every mid range tier level at all the casino's. Platinum in total rewards, and half way to Diamond.

Quote: stabworld

In the 2 and a half months I played in AC, I have just about every mid range tier level at all the casino's. Platinum in total rewards, and half way to Diamond.

Wow, that's a lot of travel time by foot, car or jitney. It will be less now. A couple of months isn't much when play is spread out. Each casino has it's own tolerance level so it's impossible to say how much is too much. In your case, it may come down to accumulated wins. Are you winning? You can only rathole so much.

A few posts back you mentioned being flat bet. Was that in AC? Two suits approaching you in the poker room 30 minutes after you leave a blackjack table is beyond strange. What did they say? Have you attempted to play since?

Sounded to me like the most recent incident probably happened in Pennsylvania, I would really probably not go into further detail if I was OP, probably wouldn't hurt but always better safe than sorry in AP play.

Quote: 1BB

Wow, that's a lot of travel time by foot, car or jitney. It will be less now. A couple of months isn't much when play is spread out. Each casino has it's own tolerance level so it's impossible to say how much is too much. In your case, it may come down to accumulated wins. Are you winning? You can only rathole so much.

A few posts back you mentioned being flat bet. Was that in AC? Two suits approaching you in the poker room 30 minutes after you leave a blackjack table is beyond strange. What did they say? Have you attempted to play since?

I'm winning in a few casino's, losing in some, (overall up as a whole). Luckily, 2 of the 3 recently closed down casino's in AC, I won big at, but there no longer in existance, so I don't have to worry about them. I try to rathole at least $100 in chips per hour, which is slightly over my expected hourly wage.

I was flat-betted not in an a AC casino. I haven't had any issues with any AC casino up until this point. The 2 suits that approached me in the poker room, basically said, we have identified you as an advantage player and if you sit at a blackjack table in our casino, you must bet the table minimum, and when you sit down identify yourself to the floor as an advantage player. If you try to play and bet higher than the posted table minimum we will escort you off the property. You also, are allowed to play poker and any other game offered in the casino. They both extended their hand to shake my hand (which I also extended my hand and shook both their hands). They were quite courteous.

My recent back-off wasn't as pleasant. They guy was just a real jerk. I asked him, "what gave it away"? and also "how long have you been watching me?" He replied, "let us worry about that." I just said ok, and walked to the cage to cash out my chips. He stood there watching me, like I was gonna try and sit back at the table. It sucks, cause he backed me off, while the count was a TC+5 with only half way through the shoe. What further sucked about it, I was down $500 at the time of the back-off at that table.

I am coming to a point in the road, especially after the last 3 weeks, of maybe calling it quits for right now and card counting. I'm really on the wall about having to tap into my RoTH IRA. My ROR is just way too high to continue to card count with my current bankroll (excluding my ROTH IRA). I ran some sims, and even cutting my max bet in half, my ROR would be around 8-10%, and the hourly expected value is just not worth it. I think I'm gonna just try to crush 2/5nl (poker). My bankroll can comfortably support that. I'm not giving up entirly on card counting, I just want to build up a bankroll big enough and not on time restraints and not have to include my ROTH IRA as part of that bankroll. I still made 6 k during this adventure, but was up 19k at the high point.

Quote: stabworld

I am coming to a point in the road, especially after the last 3 weeks, of maybe calling it quits for right now and card counting. I'm really on the wall about having to tap into my RoTH IRA. My ROR is just way too high to continue to card count with my current bankroll (excluding my ROTH IRA). I ran some sims, and even cutting my max bet in half, my ROR would be around 8-10%, and the hourly expected value is just not worth it. I think I'm gonna just try to crush 2/5nl (poker). My bankroll can comfortably support that. I'm not giving up entirly on card counting, I just want to build up a bankroll big enough and not on time restraints and not have to include my ROTH IRA as part of that bankroll. I still made 6 k during this adventure, but was up 19k at the high point.

Do you want someone/me to tell you not to raid your Roth? Ok, Here Goes: Do Not Take Money Out Of Your Roth IRA To Play With. I think your plan to build a bigger BR and get rid of the time constraints/borrowing is a very good one. :)

Well Done SW,
You had an adventure and saw for yourself that it was getting a bit more dangerous than you could afford it to be, so you now choose to maybe call it a day. You also came out ahead by a reasonable sum after riding a rollercoaster. I think that most here would agree that this was the ideal outcome and I seriously congratulate you. There's no shame in quitting while you are ahead, nor in being wary of what were real dangers. Now, I hope you have the willpower not to let those recent months turn out to be an addiction. Do'nt, please don't tap into your pension. Get those loans paid off before they start costing you interest.

Quote: OnceDear

Well Done SW,
You had an adventure and saw for yourself that it was getting a bit more dangerous than you could afford it to be, so you now choose to maybe call it a day. You also came out ahead by a reasonable sum after riding a rollercoaster. I think that most here would agree that this was the ideal outcome and I seriously congratulate you. There's no shame in quitting while you are ahead, nor in being wary of what were real dangers. Now, I hope you have the willpower not to let those recent months turn out to be an addiction. Do'nt, please don't tap into your pension. Get those loans paid off before they start costing you interest.

Thanks for the kind words. Appreciate it. I know it's going to take some will power to walk by those blackjack tables on the way to the poker room and not sit down.

this is not to do with counting live black-jack, but may be a 'safer' option with your bank-roll and expected EV requirements (to make $50 to $100 EV an hour?, if I remember correctly) playing blackjack.

1. first i need to know if using VPN's or tunneling to 'pretend' that you are in a different country is illegal or not in the US? if it is legal or at least quasi-legal*** to do this in the USA, then what i suggest below is probably 'safer' for your 'bank-roll' to expected EV requirements, compared to a live casino.

quasi-legal***: in Australia it is 'illegal' to bet with an on-line casino (that is not registered in Australia), but the government doesn't care if you do(you won't get fined or go to jail, etc), the Government only says this to cover themselves,
eg if the said on-line casino fails to pay you, the Government has no way to force them to. (so in other words it is effectively legal, you just can't complain to the government if you don't get paid, in Australia)

if it is legal, then read below
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2. visit www.5dimes.eu (bonus casino), go to the black-jack game listed below:

All Ties Win Half Version #3
After each hand played, a new 4 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. All ties with dealer pay 1 to 2. Blackjack pays 21/20. Dealer hits on soft 17. No double down. No splits. EARLY SURRENDER available. Insurance pays 11/5. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.

nb: this game has about a 0.25% player edge, with a single-hand standard deviation of between .90 and .94 (can't remember the exact figure off the top of my head)
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example of the way I play, below

on 'fast-play'@@@ mode, i can play 600 to 800 + hands per hour, which is worth $90 to $120 + EV per hour (flat betting $60***)

'fast-play'@@@: if you don't believe me about the "600 to 800 + hands per hour", then practice in 'free-play' mode, even a beginner should be able to play 250 + hand per hour accurately (if your connection doesn't drop out or lag, of course)

$60***: i have been flat-betting there for almost a year now (always been paid my winnings etc), with almost no cover^^^ bets,

cover^^^: only just started doing cover bets over the last 3 weeks, by 'pretending' to be a'Martingale system' player (start off with a bet of $25, and after every loss double it, to a CAP of $100 per bet)

To answer any risk of ruin worries, the risk of ruin should be close to 0% (if you bet this game to a 1/400 to 1/625 of your CURRENT bank-roll)
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use the software found at the website below to confirm correct basic strategy and house/player edge, etc.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/free-blackjack-combinatorial-analyzer.php
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hope this was helpful, and that i haven't wasted your time,

disregard this post if it is not legal to do this from the USA, and if there is no legal loop-hole

ps i have posted about this game earlier in the year, and the casino still hasn't taken it away, so I hope you get a good crack at it before they eventually do (though i hope they don't)

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Edit: if this post sounds rambling or whatever, it is partly because i have a Autism Spectrum disorder.

Quote: 1BB

Wow, that's a lot of travel time by foot, car or jitney. It will be less now. A couple of months isn't much when play is spread out. Each casino has it's own tolerance level so it's impossible to say how much is too much. In your case, it may come down to accumulated wins. Are you winning? You can only rathole so much.

A few posts back you mentioned being flat bet. Was that in AC? Two suits approaching you in the poker room 30 minutes after you leave a blackjack table is beyond strange. What did they say? Have you attempted to play since?

That's not strange if he plays aggressively in small joints or is so well-known that they recognize him instantly. Said in one post that he knew one of the employees for years; not sure exactly what that means, but this type of situation has happened to me, and I have far less experience than you. I think you vary your style according to casino out of self-preservation, whereas some of us are suicidal.

Quote: stabworld

I am coming to a point in the road, especially after the last 3 weeks, of maybe calling it quits for right now and card counting. I'm really on the wall about having to tap into my RoTH IRA. My ROR is just way too high to continue to card count with my current bankroll (excluding my ROTH IRA). I ran some sims, and even cutting my max bet in half, my ROR would be around 8-10%, and the hourly expected value is just not worth it. I think I'm gonna just try to crush 2/5nl (poker). My bankroll can comfortably support that. I'm not giving up entirly on card counting, I just want to build up a bankroll big enough and not on time restraints and not have to include my ROTH IRA as part of that bankroll. I still made 6 k during this adventure, but was up 19k at the high point.

Everyone told you this 47 pages ago. You needed a short novel to reach the same conclusion; are you serious?

Quote: Sonuvabish

That's not strange if he plays aggressively in small joints or is so well-known that they recognize him instantly. Said in one post that he knew one of the employees for years; not sure exactly what that means, but this type of situation has happened to me, and I have far less experience than you. I think you vary your style according to casino out of self-preservation, whereas some of us are suicidal.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by anything but it did sound strange to me. I've been backed off, flat bet and trespassed dozens of times. I've been surrounded by goons, threatened by thugs, had my license plate run and been followed out the door. I've been backed off at buy in, the middle of a game and at the end of a game. I've been harassed at the cage for small amounts and had cash outs withheld pending conformation that I did indeed play that day. I've been evicted from a hotel room in the dead of night. I have never had two suits seek me out in another part of the casino to flat bet me thirty minutes after playing, even after being overpaid, so I guess I can't say that I've seen it all. It still sounds strange.

Quote: Sonuvabish

Everyone told you this 47 pages ago. You needed a short novel to reach the same conclusion; are you serious?

This is very true, but I am still glad that stabworld finally reached this conclusion as well (for his sake). Sometimes, we just don't want to hear what others are advising us, and it takes a little while, to recognize that they are probably right. I have been THERE as well. :/

Quote: 1BB

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by anything but it did sound strange to me. I've been backed off, flat bet and trespassed dozens of times. I've been surrounded by goons, threatened by thugs, had my license plate run and been followed out the door. I've been backed off at buy in, the middle of a game and at the end of a game. I've been harassed at the cage for small amounts and had cash outs withheld pending conformation that I did indeed play that day. I've been evicted from a hotel room in the dead of night. I have never had two suits seek me out in another part of the casino to flat bet me thirty minutes after playing, even after being overpaid, so I guess I can't say that I've seen it all. It still sounds strange.

I have been backed off at the buffet and IN THE MEN'S ROOM. Last year when I attended a superbowl, party in the banquet room of a casino, I had a suit come up and remind me that I was not allowed to play blackjack (I had no intention of playing....I wast jus there for the superbowl and free drinks and food.)

Quote: Sonuvabish

Everyone told you this 47 pages ago. You needed a short novel to reach the same conclusion; are you serious?

Somewhat harsh Son. Stabworld set off as a new counter only a few months ago. Agreed, he took an exceptional amount of warning to reach the appropriate conclusion, but he's there now, much wiser and with interesting tales to tell. If he'd not been so stubborn, he may have not bothered with the whole adventure. He would not have had the tales to tell his friends and children, and this forum would not have had an object lesson with which to advise the next wannabe counter. Nobody lost except the casinos, so it's all good as far as I can see.

Quote: OnceDear

Somewhat harsh Son. Stabworld set off as a new counter only a few months ago. Agreed, he took an exceptional amount of warning to reach the appropriate conclusion, but he's there now, much wiser and with interesting tales to tell. If he'd not been so stubborn, he may have not bothered with the whole adventure. He would not have had the tales to tell his friends and children, and this forum would not have had an object lesson with which to advise the next wannabe counter. Nobody lost except the casinos, so it's all good as far as I can see.

Here! Here! OnceDear. For real Sonuvabish, you really had to rub it in huh.. No harm, no foul, I got some counting experience in, made money in the process. Sheez... Only bad that came from it, is flat-betted in 1 casino, and back-offed in another.. and possibly built some reputation (negative attention) in a few in AC. - maybe also, it took time away from my poker playing (although I was still playing some 2/5 sessions here and there)

Quote: kewlj

This is very true, but I am still glad that stabworld finally reached this conclusion as well (for his sake). Sometimes, we just don't want to hear what others are advising us, and it takes a little while, to recognize that they are probably right. I have been THERE as well. :/



I have been backed off at the buffet and IN THE MEN'S ROOM. Last year when I attended a superbowl, party in the banquet room of a casino, I had a suit come up and remind me that I was not allowed to play blackjack (I had no intention of playing....I wast jus there for the superbowl and free drinks and food.)

wow... backed off in the MENS ROOMS, thats really unprofessional by casino personal. They could have at least waited outside to you came out.

Quote: kewlj

I have been backed off at the buffet and IN THE MEN'S ROOM.

This would make me VERY nervous; there's no cameras in the bathroom. All they'd have to do is start something with you (or hell just say you tried something) and then it's their word against yours, which I don't think would work out very well at all for any AP.

Stab - Poker should carry a higher EV if you're a good player. I even know this, I just got burnt out on getting my money in 60-80% favorite and getting outdrawn. I started recording my hands and mathematically was getting outdrawn way more than I should have been, for a couple years, and it was driving me crazy. I suppose I have A LOT of built up poker EV though =p. To boot, I was even a winning player in my playing days. Do you usually just keep to 2-5 NL?

Quote: Romes

This would make me VERY nervous; there's no cameras in the bathroom. All they'd have to do is start something with you (or hell just say you tried something) and then it's their word against yours, which I don't think would work out very well at all for any AP.

Stab - Poker should carry a higher EV if you're a good player. I even know this, I just got burnt out on getting my money in 60-80% favorite and getting outdrawn. I started recording my hands and mathematically was getting outdrawn way more than I should have been, for a couple years, and it was driving me crazy. I suppose I have A LOT of built up poker EV though =p. To boot, I was even a winning player in my playing days. Do you usually just keep to 2-5 NL?

I mostly played 1/2nl for years, and really never had the bankroll or the courage to move up to 2/5. At the beginning of this year, I started playing 2/5nl and also in the last few months, when not card counting. I have had a nice run playing 2/5, ,averaging between 13-14 BB's/hr. but fairly small sample size at around 55 hours.

p.s. I know how you feel about getting your money in good and getting drawn out on. This hand happened to me at 2/5 the same day I got backed off at the casino last week - cost me $800.

My stack= $2400 or so
guy to my immediate right under the gun (donk been drawing out on me all night) stack = $400 roughly

donk to my right open raises $25, I make it $80 to go, everybody folds around the table, action on him, he calls. I'm holding AK by the way (I won't tell you what he has to the end, so gross). Pot = $170 going into the flop.

ok, donk first to act, he leads out a half a pot bet of $80 with a flop of K,8,3 rainbow, (very dry board). I smooth call. Pot = $330 going into the turn.

Turn brings a Q - board is now K,Q,8,3 rainbow he checks, I push my stack, he snap calls with like around $250 behind. pot now, just around $800 (slighlty a little bit more). He's all in.

River comes 9 - board is now K,Q,8,3, 9 guess what this donk turns over?

Q,9! He makes a horrible preflop call out of position with q,9 off, makes a stone cold bluff on flop, then he calls his whole stack off when he hits a queen on the turn, with the king still out there, what does this idiot think i have when I push the turn? OMG, so bad... I cashed out after that.. casue I knew I would be playing on tilt.. still made a $600 profit playing 3 hours however. But sucks, cause I would have been up $1,400 if that dam 9 didnt hit the river, or if queen. 5 outer I had to avoid.

He then says after raking in the pot. "I had a feeling, you know". I said to him "Nice hand" (respectfully)

Quote: stabworld

...He then says after raking in the pot. "I had a feeling, you know". I said to him "Nice hand" (respectfully)

Yeah, that sounds about right unfortunately lol. However, one great thing I picked up years back. Re-read the hand you just posted and ask yourself every step of the way... Why did I do this? Was there a better play here? etc...

Pending your level of gamble (if you're doing this full time) sometimes not re-raising with AK preflop is a better play. It masks the strength of your hand as well as keep within most pro's goals... Build a pot when you know you're ahead, keep it small when you're not sure/behind. Even so, not a bad raise and I certainly would raise here more often than call (especially to isolate a hand with a known donk) =).

If he's a donk, I see no reason not to hammer his bet on the flop though, he's calling with a wide range anyways and if you're sure you're ahead (I'd be fairly confident at this point) then this is again when you do want to build the pot. If he folds, oh no you just won a $250 pot (only $80 of which you put in), or almost 40% of your starting stack, without having to turn any cards over! If he calls, you pot commit him when you're rather confident you have the winning hand. A lot of time when you re-raise then someone/a donk leads out on the flop, it's for "pot control." This does two good things for them... 1, if you're a tight player and hit nothing you'll often fold the pot. 2, they're dictating the betting on the flop to see the turn for the price they want. He essentially bought the turn from you for $80 (half pot), when had he checked you 'might' have bet $100-$125, or even pot?

From his perspective you just calling the half pot bet on the flop could look like you had a pair pre-flop you raised on (10-10, J-J), so he could have thought the Q on the turn gave him the winner (although your push on the turn after a check would again show he's beat), but this is why he's the donk and you want him to put his money in bad =p.

None the less, at the end of the day you got your money in when he was drawing to 5 outs (~13%). So yes, a horrible play from him most of the way, and nothing more than dumb luck. I like how you played the hand all the way through though, even respectfully giving him the "nice hand" comment. Hopefully for you that 80%+ EV will come back to you soon!

Hey everyone,

Haven't posted here in awhile, since I quit blackjack and been strictly playing poker. However, I put a session in here and their "Only at good games" and at a max bet half of what I was using.

Anyhow, I want to know if this ever happened to anybody.

Ok, so I'm collaring up my chips after a profitable blackjack session at (I'll leave the name of the casino "unnamed"), and the dealer (she was definitely new and seem incompetent) gives a count of my chips at a $1,000 more then what I actually had. Surprisingly, the floor pit who is supervising this seems to be in believe of her miscount and verifies the collar up paying $1,000 more than what I was suppose to receive. It seemed like during the whole coller up process the pit was more concerned with training the dealer on how to stack the different color chips, then the actual count of the chips. I realized all of this once I got home and counted my chips.

So, my question is, am I legally responsible of paying back the casino due to their mistake, if they ever contact me?

Thanks..

Quote: stabworld

Hey everyone,

Haven't posted here in awhile, since I quit blackjack and been strictly playing poker. However, I put a session in here and their "Only at good games" and at a max bet half of what I was using.

Anyhow, I want to know if this ever happened to anybody.

Ok, so I'm collaring up my chips after a profitable blackjack session at (I'll leave the name of the casino "unnamed"), and the dealer (she was definitely new and seem incompetent) gives a count of my chips at a $1,000 more then what I actually had. Surprisingly, the floor pit who is supervising this seems to be in believe of her miscount and verifies the collar up paying $1,000 more than what I was suppose to receive. It seemed like during the whole coller up process the pit was more concerned with training the dealer on how to stack the different color chips, then the actual count of the chips. I realized all of this once I got home and counted my chips.

So, my question is, am I legally responsible of paying back the casino due to their mistake, if they ever contact me?

Thanks..

I suppose it depends on the laws of the state or jurisdiction, but since they have your name/player info (I assume since you think they can contact you) and they have a tape of the table where they can likely prove you were overpaid, you would legally owe them the money IMO. However, if you haven't already heard from them, it seems unlikely to me you ever will. If nothing was raised at the time, and the table counted down properly, it I would be surprised if they just randomly audited for an incorrect color-up, especially if it was confirmed at the time by a PB. YMMV.

Quote: stabworld

she was definitely new and seemed incompetent.

So it is highly unlikely that this was her only error on that shift so there is no way its going to be discovered and tracked to you is if they rewind the entire shift video for all the tables at which she rotated into. Not likely to happen. Unless the Eye in the Sky people were watching at the time, it will probably go unnoticed.

Quote: stabworld

Hey everyone,

Haven't posted here in awhile, since I quit blackjack and been strictly playing poker. However, I put a session in here and their "Only at a good games" and at a max bet half of what I was using.

Anyhow, I want to know if this ever happened to anybody.

Ok, so I'm collaring up my chips after a profitable blackjack session at (I'll leave the name of the casino "unnamed"), and the dealer (she was definitely new and seem incompetent) gives a count of my chips at a $1,000 more then what I actually had. Surprisingly, the floor pit who is supervising this seems to be in believe of her miscount and verifies the collar up paying $1,000 more than what I was suppose to receive. It seemed like during the whole coller up process the pit was more concerned with training the dealer on how to stack the different color chips, then the actual count of the chips. I realized all of this once I got home and counted my chips.

So, my question is, am I legally responsible of paying back the casino due to their mistake, if they ever contact me?

Thanks..

I believe you are responsible. It's the casino's money, no different than an error from a store or bank teller. That doesn't mean you have to return it just because they ask you to. They would have to take you to court. What casino is going to do that? None that I know of.

Overpays are part of the game and I do not correct them. The best I do is leave the chips up a few seconds longer to give the dealer half a chance to see the mistake. If another player benefits from a mistake, I do not react or say anything.

Refusal to reimburse the casino when requested will most likely result in a banning but it's doubtful that they'll contact you at this point. Did you play rated and have you been back since this incident?

That's the skinny on your question. Let's see if this turns into another ethics thread. We have plenty of those already. Enjoy your $1000 to the fullest!

^^^^^ This, but I'll chime in from what I've heard on the radio show numerous times from Bob Nersesian... You don't have to pay them back. Yes, they would have to take you to court, which they won't do over 1k. Yes, they can (and will) ban you if they know who you are.

I'd also edit your post to more 'accurately' reflect that you noticed when you got home. According to Bob, at least in Nevada, if you KNOW they're overpaying you, and they can prove you knew before getting paid, then you can get in big trouble (felony). Obviously there's zero proof of this at the table or on video, but your post might infer you knew something prior to being paid... Or maybe I'm misreading it because I thought you didn't realize it until you got home =).

Quote: 1BB

I believe you are responsible. It's the casino's money, no different than an error from a store or bank teller. That doesn't mean you have to return it just because they ask you to. They would have to take you to court. What casino is going to do that? None that I know of.

Overpays are part of the game and I do not correct them. The best I do is leave the chips up a few seconds longer to give the dealer half a chance to see the mistake. If another player benefits from a mistake, I do not react or say anything.

Refusal to reimburse the casino when requested will most likely result in a banning but it's doubtful that they'll contact you at this point. Did you play rated and have you been back since this incident?

That's the skinny on your question. Let's see if this turns into another ethics thread. We have plenty of those already. Enjoy your $1000 to the fullest!

1BB - in answer to your questions. Yes, I was playing rated, and no I haven't been back. But, I do have to go back eventually to cash in the chips.

Quote: Romes

^^^^^ This, but I'll chime in from what I've heard on the radio show numerous times from Bob Nersesian... You don't have to pay them back. Yes, they would have to take you to court, which they won't do over 1k. Yes, they can (and will) ban you if they know who you are.

I'd also edit your post to more 'accurately' reflect that you noticed when you got home. According to Bob, at least in Nevada, if you KNOW they're overpaying you, and they can prove you knew before getting paid, then you can get in big trouble (felony). Obviously there's zero proof of this at the table or on video, but your post might infer you knew something prior to being paid... Or maybe I'm misreading it because I thought you didn't realize it until you got home =).

Yes, I meant, I didn't notice to I got home.

Quote: stabworld

1BB - in answer to your questions. Yes, I was playing rated, and no I haven't been back. But, I do have to go back eventually to cash in the chips.

I would go back to cash in the chips WITHOUT playing or swiping your card at/for anything. After you've been paid, if you dare, you can play rated after that... but if they noticed at some point be prepared for the tap on the shoulder to talk about it. It depends what you want to do at that point. If you'd rather have the $1k, then refuse to give them any money and leave the casino (which you'll be more than likely bar'd from). If you'd rather keep the shop open then give the $1k back, but be warned they could still bar you for no reason after that. Maybe they have you flagged as someone to watch and this puts your account in the "too much trouble to deal with" category and you'll get bar'd regardless.

Personally I'd cash the chips and play elsewhere for a while. If you still want to play there I'd play unrated for a while. If they asked for the money back I'd say I don't recall and not give them a dime. As Bob said, if you're going to say anything it should be "I'll pay you back when you show me the video of every single under pay you've ever made and the video of you correcting it."

p.s. Your post on the last page looks odd. Perhaps you might want to edit it?

Even if I edit, the following post has the original post in it anyhow. Ya, I'm just going to go back there to cash. If I decide to play, I'll play unrated.

Quote: stabworld

Even if I edit, the following post has the original post in it anyhow. Ya, I'm just going to go back there to cash. If I decide to play, I'll play unrated.

If you are talking about the post that I quoted, I believe that I can edit that. If that's the post that you want to edit go ahead and change it. Let me know or I'll watch for it and then change the quote to match your changes.

actually, it would have to be edited by also beachbumbs.. he also quoted my post.. i appreciate it.. if beachbumbs is on board, i'll edit my post. dont really see a big deal with editing anyway.. its all anonymous. as far as I know at least..

Quote: stabworld

actually, it would have to be edited by also beachbumbs.. he also quoted my post.. i appreciate it.. if beachbumbs is on board, i'll edit my post. dont really see a big deal with editing anyway.. its all anonymous. as far as I know at least..

sure, stabworld, edit as you like, and drop me a PM on it when you do it. I'm a she, FWIW.

Quote: beachbumbabs

sure, stabworld, edit as you like, and drop me a PM on it when you do it. I'm a she, FWIW.

1BB, beachbumbabs, - Edited.. Thanks..

Fixed. For 1BB as well. Just 'cuz I had it locked and loaded in the ole' clipboard.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Fixed. For 1BB as well. Just 'cuz I had it locked and loaded in the ole' clipboard.

thanks beachbumbabs!

Hi Anybody Help!

I would like to start a new thread. How do I do it? Can't figure it out.

When clicking on your link. It brings me to a page to start a new thread.

When attempting to do so - it reads: The forum you are trying to start a new thread in could not be found.

Could you tell me step by step where you went to get there?

Thanks for the help..

Nevermind. Got it!..

Thanks..

Quote: stabworld

Hello card counters,

I would like to ask some advice from experienced counters. I am new to counting - have been practicing at home. Over the last 13 years I have played blackjack recreationally and never had a clue that there could have been counters sitting next to me. I have always just played blackjack to blow off some steam after running bad at poker (which I play for a living currently) using basic strategy.

So here is the deal - with a $40,000 bankroll. I would like to get advice on a solid bet spread and table minimum with a risk of ruin under 5% - ideally 1-2% I would be comfortable with. I was thinking maybe making my minimum betting unit $25 with eighter a 1-8 spread or 1-10 spread, maybe even a 1-12 spread. This would be on an 8 deck game. Also for a DD game - there is a $50 minimum bet - I was thinking using eighter a 1-6 or 1-8 spread with this.

What do you all think?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!

Hi Stabworld.
I remember reading your first few posts when you came here way back with this intro. I was particularly reminded of you when the other new kid on the block 'ZenKing' came here with the high hopes of a newbie counter. His experience seemed to be the inverse of yours.
Maybe for the likes of such newbies, you'd be so kind as to run us through your 'career' over the last two years? Did you absolutely cream the casinos? Are you still making your main income there? Did you find better opportunities that made counting just not worth the effort?
Thanks in advance.
OD.

You should purchase a blackjack simulator such as CVCX. It allows you to tweak the variables so that you can have the ROR you desire as well as helps you design optimal bet spreads. Note, if you plan to resize downwards after losing then your actual ROR will be significantly lower than what the simulator says.

Quote: OnceDear

Hi Stabworld.
I remember reading your first few posts when you came here way back with this intro. I was particularly reminded of you when the other new kid on the block 'ZenKing' came here with the high hopes of a newbie counter. His experience seemed to be the inverse of yours.
Maybe for the likes of such newbies, you'd be so kind as to run us through your 'career' over the last two years? Did you absolutely cream the casinos? Are you still making your main income there? Did you find better opportunities that made counting just not worth the effort?
Thanks in advance.
OD.

I am going to answer your question honestly -

- I played full time my first year -(300 hours roughly)
- part time for half the year (the following year). -
- maybe 70 hours last year
- and maybe 40 hours this year

My first year - i made 12k roughly
2nd year - I lost 10k roughly
3rd year - I made 11k roughly
This year - I am down 8k

(These are all off the top of my head - and I have to look on my laptop for my exact records)

Needless to say - it was not as profitable as I anticipated it to be - despite how sure I was - I could make back the money I borrowed from credit cards (balance transfers)

- I did file for bankruptcy in late 2015 (as others here on the forum have warned might happen)

- during these 3 years - I have been backed off, amd restricted from playing blackjack on just about every casino here on the East coast - with a few in vegas- 86' d from an indian casino - as well as 1 in vegas - i been backroomed - assualted - illegally detained - illegal search and seizure - and illegal dissemination of personal information against my consent - by tribal police - my attempt at a law suit - was useless as the gaming lawyer I reached out too would Not take my case - because of sovereign immunity for the casino I wanted to sue

- Even after bankruptcy- I contined to play - but very limited - and mostly these days I try to just back-count and wong out immediately at neatral or negative counts -

- after learning - maybe im not as smart I thought I was or disciplined- or combination of both - (as half the time I counted - I was intoxicated). I went back to playing poker full time - and have been doing fairly well in that As I always have befire I started my short 2-3 year blackjack career (full-part time)