Smoking to Resume in June (AC)
Quote: daveyandersen1why are some of them so Fing rude .. I mean they blow their smoke right in my direction or allow the burning smoke from end of the cigarette to drift right in my face..than when I wave my hand like a fan to keep the smoke away from me they get even more agressive with the smoke .. and women are the worst offenders.
She may be trying to get you to leave.
Quote: Mission146Neither is getting hit by a bus.
Which is why busses are not allowed on sidewalks.
Quote: Mission146I don't mean, "NEVER,"---people wonder why I usually try to write so specifically. It's because you can't even have a casual conversation without getting nitpicked. Anyway, I thought that I implied that most office buildings were that way even prior to state smoking bans. If not, I certainly meant to imply that.
Hell, I even said that it could be, "Faulty memory," in that post! I'd already covered your objection!
Right. Just affirming or letting you know it was, indeed...“faulty memory”.
Quote: Mission146I wouldn’t have been smoking around you guys (if you were there first) because I’d have asked if it would bother you and you’d have politely answered in the affirmative.
Most people I see asking this are already tapping the cigarette out of the pack as they ask. Cigarette about to be lit at table...”you guys mind if I smoke”? Cue eye roll.
Quote: DeMangoWhich is why busses are not allowed on sidewalks.
Though people are allowed on streets.
Quote: TDVegasMost people I see asking this are already tapping the cigarette out of the pack as they ask. Cigarette about to be lit at table...”you guys mind if I smoke”? Cue eye roll.
That's fair. I would just say that the asking (regardless of body language) gives you absolute latitude in saying yes. I'd say that I would have asked before pulling out the pack, probably, but I don't specifically remember. I definitely asked before starting to get a cigarette out of the pack.
Quote: Mission146That's fair. I would just say that the asking (regardless of body language) gives you absolute latitude in saying yes. I'd say that I would have asked before pulling out the pack, probably, but I don't specifically remember. I definitely asked before starting to get a cigarette out of the pack.
If you are anywhere in a casino and you siddle up near someone not smoking and ask if they mind if you smoke....99% chance the answer is yes. Whether they actually say yes is likely a lot less. It’s one of those questions that doesn’t need to be asked.
Quote: TDVegasIf you are anywhere in a casino and you siddle up near someone not smoking and ask if they mind if you smoke....99% chance the answer is yes. Whether they actually say yes is likely a lot less. It’s one of those questions that doesn’t need to be asked.
Well, I could have not asked...but then I'd have felt like a real dolt an hour later when they pulled out their own pack and lit one, now wouldn't I?
I don't know where you're playing, but around here, the smoker/non-smoker distribution in casinos is damn near 50/50.
If the answer is yes, then they should say yes. I do not control what comes out of their mouths. I did not ask banking on the answer being no. If the answer was yes, I would not have cared that much.
Quote: Mission146Well, I could have not asked...but then I'd have felt like a real dolt an hour later when they pulled out their own pack and lit one, now wouldn't I?
I don't know where you're playing, but around here, the smoker/non-smoker distribution in casinos is damn near 50/50.
If the answer is yes, then they should say yes. I do not control what comes out of their mouths. I did not ask banking on the answer being no. If the answer was yes, I would not have cared that much.
Where is “around here”?
I’m in Vegas.
In Nevada..among the big 3 (Las Vegas, Reno and Lake Tahoe)....why Laughlin wasn’t included, I don’t know. It’s around 20%...give or take a percentage or so. Now, this was a bunch of years ago and is the ONLY known study (that I know of) of gamblers who smoke. My guess is today’s numbers are lower. Among rural locations it runs a bunch higher, but that is based on a much smaller count of gamblers. I think that number was running around 35%.
My understanding is the study did actual floor counts based on visiting numerous casinos thru-out Nevada. It wasn’t just a questionnaire.
If your casino is running 50%....and I take anecdotal reporting with a grain of salt (no insult intended), that’s an EXTREMELY high number. Crisakes, are they giving everyone a free pack when they come thru the door? I would question a 50% count even in rural places like Tonapah, West Wendover or Elko.
Quote: TDVegasWhere is “around here”?
I’m in Vegas.
In Nevada..among the big 3 (Las Vegas, Reno and Lake Tahoe)....why Laughlin wasn’t included, I don’t know. It’s around 20%...give or take a percentage or so. Now, this was a bunch of years ago and is the ONLY known study of gamblers who smoke. My guess is today’s numbers are lower. Among rural locations it runs a bunch higher, but that is based on a much smaller count of gamblers. I think that number was running around 35%.
If your casino is running 50%....and I take anecdotal reporting with a grain of salt (no insult intended), that’s an EXTREMELY high number. Crisakes, are they giving everyone a pack when they come thru the door? I would question a 50% count even in rural places like Tonapah, West Wendover or Elko.
Pennsylvania and West Virginia casinos, mostly, but not entirely. Ohio is 100% non-smoking for casinos, except those areas that are technically outdoors. I think same thing with Maryland and the, "Technically outdoors," areas, but I'm not 100% sure. I know the smoking room at Rocky Gap is extremely tiny. I recall that you have to go through two doors to get to it, which, if recollection serves, suffices to make it technically outdoors.
You'd also have to look at the general times that I am in casinos, which are mostly the slower hours or average hours. The hardcore gamblers, mostly. I don't care to have competition and like to be in and out when it comes to vulturing, so I just go and do a pass when I don't have competition---or it's much less likely. Mostly vacant machines, no waiting, enough plays/EV to be satisfactory for me relative to time spend. (Which means not a ton, but my standards are lower than others.)
Lots of social security checks at the beginning of the month in these areas, especially one casino in particular, so lots of smokers. It really does seem to be about 50/50 in one casino in particular especially, but I'm not claiming to have done an official headcount to the man.
I also qualified, "Damn near," so I left room for it to be a little under 50% smokers.
Quote: daveyandersen1I don't try to come on to women at a casino anyway.. SOO that cAN'T BE THE REASON,,,HOW ABOUT THAT Deiter
Preemptive strike. Ounce of prevention, pound of cure.
Lighting a cigarette and exhaling may be easier for her than singing "My name is no, my sign is no, my number is no".
Quote: Mission146...I don't know where you're playing, but around here, the smoker/non-smoker distribution in casinos is damn near 50/50...
Yeah, that strikes me as a high. One or two heavy smokers pollute a lot of air space.
At 50%, the stick would have trouble calling the roll.
Quote: CalderYeah, that strikes me as a high. One or two heavy smokers pollute a lot of air space.
At 50%, the stick would have trouble calling the roll.
Ooof. Imagine that haze?
The Dottys slot parlors here are akin to a chemical plant chimney...but I don’t even think they are 50%. The one time I walked by I was met with a wall of smoke stench. It’s generally saloon Sally’s in there, more smoke wrinkles than a crumbled piece of laundry...dropping off their social security checks.
Quote: CalderYeah, that strikes me as a high. One or two heavy smokers pollute a lot of air space.
At 50%, the stick would have trouble calling the roll.
On average, there are zero people playing Craps when I am there. Rounding down, of course.
Quote: TDVegasMost people I see asking this are already tapping the cigarette out of the pack as they ask. Cigarette about to be lit at table...”you guys mind if I smoke”? Cue eye roll.
Here is my thing. Let me start by saying there is nobody more polite than me, and I almost always abide by reasonable requests to not smoke (even if legally entitled to), the exception would be if somebody is being a jerk about it.
However, if you are at a smoking table (in a smoking section), you should be prepared to be exposed to second hand smoke. If you are in a smoking section and somebody asks if you mind if they smoke they are already going above and beyond. Your rights to not be exposed to smoke in a smoking area are zero. Most people, like myself, are polite and will ask (unless others are already smoking), but there is no obligation to do so.
Once I was in a casino smoking lounge in AC (literally just table, chairs and ashtrays, and massive signs on the door that you are entering a ventilated smoking lounge, they are vestibules from when AC was briefly 100% nonsmoking -indoor smoking lounges were allowed in casino buildings as long as no gaming activities were inside and staff could not enter- you can still find a couple at some casinos that were around then even though smoking areas are reallowed on the floor.... of course this ban only lasted a month so they quickly became useless and often empty....) with a friend to smoke and talk about something and some couple comes in with drinks and asks if we (well to be fair it was just me smoking) could step outside to smoke. Its like people do not read signs on the massive sealed doors.... Now this is an extreme example (there is no reason a nonsmoker should enter a sealed smoking room and get offended that people are smoking at a table -table meaning table and chairs not a gaming table-), but you can make the same case for smoking sections of the building. This is one scenario where I just politely said "no, you have over 75% of the building already, and the sole use of this room is designed for smoking" or something like that....
At the end of the day, this is something that should be decided by consumers. If most people want non-smoking casinos would naturally become either be nonsmoking, or mostly non-smoking (with smoking only allowed in very limited areas)..... Casinos pay a lot of people a lot of money to study what makes them the most money (probably even more than most industries). If smoking was as negative for their image or even thought to be as people here are making it out to be, it would be long gone. Smokers tend to gamble more in general and tend to spend more during sessions, so it makes sense that they will cater to them.
As for me, once things renormalize, I will probably go back to smoking a few cigarettes or cigars a year at casinos if its still legal (which it likely will be), and enjoy it as part of the experience, and I do not think that anything is wrong with this (everything in moderation etc...).
Quote: GandlerHere is my thing. Let me start by saying there is nobody more polite than me, and I almost always abide by reasonable requests to not smoke (even if legally entitled to), the exception would be if somebody is being a jerk about it.
However, if you are at a smoking table (in a smoking section), you should be prepared to be exposed to second hand smoke. If you are in a smoking section and somebody asks if you mind if they smoke they are already going above and beyond. Your rights to not be exposed to smoke in a smoking area are zero. Most people, like myself, are polite and will ask (unless others are already smoking), but there is no obligation to do so.
Once I was in a casino smoking lounge in AC (literally just table, chairs and ashtrays, and massive signs on the door that you are entering a ventilated smoking lounge, they are vestibules from when AC was briefly 100% nonsmoking -indoor smoking lounges were allowed in casino buildings as long as no gaming activities were inside and staff could not enter- you can still find a couple at some casinos that were around then even though smoking areas are reallowed on the floor.... of course this ban only lasted a month so they quickly became useless and often empty....) with a friend to smoke and talk about something and some couple comes in with drinks and asks if we (well to be fair it was just me smoking) could step outside to smoke. Its like people do not read signs on the massive sealed doors.... Now this is an extreme example (there is no reason a nonsmoker should enter a sealed smoking room and get offended that people are smoking at a table -table meaning table and chairs not a gaming table-), but you can make the same case for smoking sections of the building. This is one scenario where I just politely said "no, you have over 75% of the building already, and the sole use of this room is designed for smoking" or something like that....
At the end of the day, this is something that should be decided by consumers. If most people want non-smoking casinos would naturally become either be nonsmoking, or mostly non-smoking (with smoking only allowed in very limited areas)..... Casinos pay a lot of people a lot of money to study what makes them the most money (probably even more than most industries). If smoking was as negative for their image or even thought to be as people here are making it out to be, it would be long gone. Smokers tend to gamble more in general and tend to spend more during sessions, so it makes sense that they will cater to them.
As for me, once things renormalize, I will probably go back to smoking a few cigarettes or cigars a year at casinos if its still legal (which it likely will be), and enjoy it as part of the experience, and I do not think that anything is wrong with this (everything in moderation etc...).
Typically, yes...consumers would decide or be the impetus for change. The only problem? That’s not what we did when we banned smoking in work places, malls, stadiums and just about anywhere the public gathered. There was a conscious decision by lawmakers along with the surgeon general and about a gazillion other health organizations extolling the perils of allowing smoking. So, there was no vote. There was no consensus. The government simply acted in the name of public health.
Yes, I agree with you. If you are in a smoking venue you are under ZERO obligation to get a “vibe” from others about your smoking. My contention is it’s generally a waste of time to ask. They know you are fully within your right and most (99%, IMO) will not tell you “don’t smoke”....even though they would prefer you didn’t.
The problem with consensus is it would work. 80% on the floor don’t smoke. Put it to a vote?? YES, YES, YES.
It will never happen because, as former MGM CEO alluded....the Asian whales would balk at a smoking ban. So, effectively for every 1,000 ploppies who said “no smoking”....one deep pocketed whale says “yes smoking”. Guess who wins?
Quote: TDVegasTypically, yes...consumers would decide or be the impetus for change. The only problem? That’s not what we did when we banned smoking in work places, malls, stadiums and just about anywhere the public gathered. There was a conscious decision by lawmakers along with the surgeon general and about a gazillion other health organizations extolling the perils of allowing smoking. So, there was no vote. There was no consensus. The government simply acted in the name of public health.
Yes, I agree with you. If you are in a smoking venue you are under ZERO obligation to get a “vibe” from others about your smoking. My contention is it’s generally a waste of time to ask. They know you are fully within your right and most (99%, IMO) will not tell you “don’t smoke”....even though they would prefer you didn’t.
The problem with consensus is it would work. 80% on the floor don’t smoke. Put it to a vote?? YES, YES, YES.
It will never happen because, as former MGM CEO alluded....the Asian whales would balk at a smoking ban. So, effectively for every 1,000 ploppies who said “no smoking”....one deep pocketed whale says “yes smoking”. Guess who wins?
You are probably right, it generally is a waste of time (unless you are with somebody who is outspoken and willing to say I would prefer if you do not smoke). But, its more of a I guess what you would call "routine politeness", like offering your friend a cigarette as you open a pack even if you know he will refuse, or offering somebody some of your chips or whatever. Its more of a throat clearing measure so you don't feel bad about consuming something in front of somebody else. I think most people generally appreciate it. For example, I do not chew gum, but it is always nice when somebody offers (to be refused) a piece when they pull out a pack, its just a general courtesy type thing, even if it is meant to be mostly self-serving.
But, I also agree that money always wins out. I think nonsmoking casino will naturally spread (perhaps slower than you wish). But, I think there will always be a market for smoking casinos (unless the government nullifies that). And, its not just whales from foreign countries where smoking is still normal (though that is a major factor). Many Americans who gamble heavily (and routinely) tend to smoke, this is in part due to them being older (without being too offensive or playing into stereotypes, we all know the image of the older lady chain smoking cigarettes at the slot machine). Many people who gamble also smoke. And, for many (especially machine players), this can almost be trance-like, and casinos would hate to interrupt this with forcing people to leave the machine to walk outside (or even to a designated room inside) to smoke. I would imagine that both of these would change old time, as time passes and the attitude in smoking in certain countries changes, and the old guard in American casinos change. But, it will be a slow transition (if it happens naturally and is not banned by force).
But, as for your point, if 80% of the floor does not smoke, but most of those 80% are not gambling to the extent of the 20%, that goes right back to the bind that you mentioned. If 15-20% of your customers contribute 55-60% of your revenue, you are not going to want to lose that 20%.....
For me personally I would be just fine if all casinos went non smoking (I would want it to happen naturally, not by force or law), but I think it is a fun aspect of casinos that I will not feel guilty of enjoying. In many ways its like stepping back in time, one of the only places you can indulge in many vices and not be judged (or at least not judged harshly). Even when I do not smoke, I like the fact that there are smokers around me, don't ask me why, it just adds to the ambiance. I also have never been bothered by second hand smoke at all, so I cannot personally empathize with people who seem to think its the end of time (there are some colognes that I find more annoying than second hand smoke).
I am not sure what you mean by there as no vote and no consensus. The Surgeon General's statements and warnings were not law, but an advisory. There is no Federal smoking bans (other than airlines and some federal properties). All smoking bans are either State or Local (all of which happened by vote, the State cannot just ban smoking without legislation). The government "acted" by putting out information and allowing States and localities to make their own choice (there are still some States and Territories with no smoking bans). This is why in some States you can still smoke in schools, and other States you cannot smoke in outdoor parks...
As far as NJ is concerned, I think the current law is fine. And, I think AC's local ordinance of 75/25 is a very fair compromise for all. I know that you disagree, and that is fine, but I would prefer that people who want smoking banned petition casinos that they frequent to change their policies versus try to do a blanket ban across the State, because one-size fits all solutions rarely work on such sensitive topics.
Quote: TDVegasTypically, yes...consumers would decide or be the impetus for change. The only problem? That’s not what we did when we banned smoking in work places, malls, stadiums and just about anywhere the public gathered. There was a conscious decision by lawmakers along with the surgeon general and about a gazillion other health organizations extolling the perils of allowing smoking. So, there was no vote. There was no consensus. The government simply acted in the name of public health.
Yes, I agree with you. If you are in a smoking venue you are under ZERO obligation to get a “vibe” from others about your smoking. My contention is it’s generally a waste of time to ask. They know you are fully within your right and most (99%, IMO) will not tell you “don’t smoke”....even though they would prefer you didn’t.
The problem with consensus is it would work. 80% on the floor don’t smoke. Put it to a vote?? YES, YES, YES.
It will never happen because, as former MGM CEO alluded....the Asian whales would balk at a smoking ban. So, effectively for every 1,000 ploppies who said “no smoking”....one deep pocketed whale says “yes smoking”. Guess who wins?
In some places, there is a vote:
https://ballotpedia.org/Ohio_Smoking_Ban,_Initiative_5_(2006)
If the public votes on a ban in any jurisdiction of any size (except national) and the Government simply enforces the public's will, then I am also more than happy with that. I highly encourage a public vote. That is terrific regardless of the result, however inevitable.
I would assume, based on how few casinos are non-smoking of their own accord, two things:
1.) The casinos think that they will lose the business of some smokers if they go non-smoking. (I'd hope this can be generally accepted as at least partially true)
2.) The casinos know that the complaining non-smokers are going to keep coming back anyway. They probably also tend to think going non-smoking isn't going to get them anyone they don't already have.
Quote: Mission146
1.) The casinos think that they will lose the business of some smokers if they go non-smoking. (I'd hope this can be generally accepted as at least partially true)
I can tell you that revenue went down 50% in Las Vegas when they outlawed smoking at the slot machines in grocery stores.
Quote: DRichI can tell you that revenue went down 50% in Las Vegas when they outlawed smoking at the slot machines in grocery stores.
Game. Set. Match.
At least on Government doing it without there at least being a public vote. Thanks!
That doesn't make sense and I don't think that's exactly true in most cases. Even though people smoke, they still go to the casino they just stop doing what they're doing, they run outside they smoke they come back in. Same as any other business such as movie theaters, shopping malls, bars that don't allow smoking and all kinds of other public or private businesses and public areas that do not allow smoking.
If your a chain smoker and you need a cigarette hanging from your lips every minute of the day that you're awake, maybe those type of people don't go to the casino but if they want to gamble they will go even if there's no smoking allowed.
I work in casinos that allowed smoking in the past and several years ago cut some of it out prior to C19 and the rest of our casinos cut smoking out right after C19. I see the same people that are smokers and heavy smokers still coming to the casino all the time.
Non Smoker With A Huge Value on My Respiratory System
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
Professional Casino Security Expert
Certified Company Firearms Instructor
Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club
Quote: Marcusclark66So many people here are saying, if the patrons can't smoke they won't go to the casino?
That doesn't make sense and I don't think that's exactly true in most cases. Even though people smoke, they still go to the casino they just stop doing what they're doing, they run outside they smoke they come back in. Same as any other business such as movie theaters, shopping malls, bars that don't allow smoking and all kinds of other public or private businesses and public areas that do not allow smoking.
If your a chain smoker and you need a cigarette hanging from your lips every minute of the day that you're awake, maybe those type of people don't go to the casino but if they want to gamble they will go even if there's no smoking allowed.
I work in casinos that allowed smoking in the past and several years ago cut some of it out prior to C19 and the rest of our casinos cut ut out right after C19. I see the same people that are smokers and heavy smokers still coming to the casino all the time.
Non Smoker With A Huge Value on My Respiratory System
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
Professional Casino Security Expert
Certified Company Firearms Instructor
Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club
I do not think that anyone is disagreeing that people will still not go to casinos if smoking was banned. I am not sure what being a firearms instructor has to do with this?
But, its more about options. I am sure that you see this first hand since you post that you also work security. People enjoy smoking when they play. Some are smokers. Some are like me "opportunistic smokers" (will smoke a few times a year when in social situations). I think that casinos should set their own policies, that can be 100% nonsmoking, 100% smoking, or smoking only in allotted areas. And, then people can choose which experience they most enjoy.
I may be in the minority here, but I don't think of smoking as an addiction, nicotine is an addiction. Smoking is just one means to satisfy this. And, I would never be a regular smoker. But, I am not worried about having a few smokes a year, if it kills me, something was probably wrong to begin with.... I think I had one cigar with a friend around Xmas, and I have not had a cigarette since pre-Covid. Everything in moderation. I do agree that smoking is terrible for you (nobody disputes this), I wish it was not, because it is very enjoyable, but its reality (I also agree that I avoid it because it lowers your cardio ability which worries me most, more so than the long term risks there are, even if that is short sighted). There are a lot of things I enjoy that are unhealthy so I either avoid or consume in extreme moderation (red meat for another example, food examples are endless and would get quite off topic).
The main reason I like smoking to remain in casinos, is because I like options. Once when I was in Texas I took a roadtrip with some friends to some casino (not in Texas), I honestly do not know the State, but somewhere within driving distance of Texas. And, the casino had no tobacco and no alcohol allowed (not just no free drinks, no alcohol at all). It was completely boring, no alcohol and no tobacco in a casino changes the experience more than you realize until you no longer have it (I honestly do not know if this was State Law, Tribal Law, or just casino policy, I don't even remember the State that this was let alone the casino). Casinos are not health spas (not for me anyway), when you try to make them such it takes out the intrigue of casinos. If people want casinos with no alcohol and no tobacco let casinos design themselves in this way, but don't force changes. I think separated smoking areas is a very fair solution. Many nonsmokers will not be satisfied until smoking is 100% banned, and many smokers want to smoke everywhere. Separate areas is a reasonable compromise (that I think the vast majority of smokers are also fine with if they think it though, because it precludes them about having to worry about offending people near them if they light up). I stand by my claim that the 75/25 split is very reasonable.
Quote: GandlerI may be in the minority here, but I don't think of smoking as an addiction, nicotine is an addiction. Smoking is just one means to satisfy this.
Just wow, what a medical statement! Yep you be in the same minority as the Earth is flat.
Quote: Gandler. Separate areas is a reasonable compromise (that I think the vast majority of smokers are also fine with if they think it though, because it precludes them about having to worry about offending people near them if they light up). I stand by my claim that the 75/25 split is very reasonable.
Separate areas is effectively what casinos in states or municipalities that don’t allow it have done. Rather elaborate, semi indoor heated patio type things, essentially semi enclosed porches with slot machines. The difference is it’s ACTUALLY a separate area. AC has areas, with poor enforcement, that are non smoking, but not smoke free areas because they are not really separate areas.
Quote: DeMangoJust wow, what a medical statement! Yep you be in the same minority as the Earth is flat.
I really do not think I should be. Nicotine is highly addictive. Smoking itself is not. You can technically smoke many substances that are not addictive (such as herbal cigarettes used by nonsmoking actors in most modern films where they have to smoke as an easy example). I really do not think this is fair to say the act of smoking itself is not addictive to being convinced that the earth is flat. Yes, there are some rituals that smokers enjoy that play a psychological impact, but at the end of the day it is the nicotine that gets people addicted.
I think Electronic Vaping is a great tool for smokers who are addicted to both nicotine and the feel of smoking to get off of cigarettes, because it appears to satisfy both the need for nicotine and the rituals of smoking, but this is getting too off topic. I just don't think that statement is as controversial as you are making it out to be.
For example (hopefully this is not getting too political), the FDA is considering mandating that nicotine be removed from cigarettes. They are doing this because they know people will stop smoking cigarettes if there is no nicotine. This would essentially make everyone a nonsmoker overnight (they would switch to alternative nicotine products). I am not saying that I support this, but it is just evidence that it is the nicotine that people care about, not the act of smoking. I doubt this will be implemented in the near future regardless of my views (it will be challenged endlessly for decades), but its just to illustrate the point that it is the nicotine that is addicting. But, if cigarettes did not have nicotine, nobody would smoke them (okay maybe a handful of people would to prove a point, but you get the idea), it would be like taking caffeine out of coffee (and yes I am aware of decaf).
Quote: mcallister3200Separate areas is effectively what casinos in states or municipalities that don’t allow it have done. Rather elaborate, semi indoor heated patio type things, essentially semi enclosed porches with slot machines. The difference is it’s ACTUALLY a separate area. AC has areas, with poor enforcement, that are non smoking, but they are not smoke free because they are not really separate areas.
I will admit enforcement does vary by casino. And, I honestly don't have a huge issue with that as somebody who thinks business should have the ultimate say on how to enforce their policies. Some casinos are quite strict to be fair, I have seen security jump all over people for having a quick pull of a vape in a nonsmoking area. It also probably depends on how busy it is, its hard to single out individual smokers when there are thousands of people wandering around. But, when it is the quiet season and people are dotted around its very easily to spot people violating the rules. I feel the severity of enforcement should be the discretion of management. For the most part most people follow the rules, and those that do not are usually an honest mistake (accidentally walking over the line with a cigar without realizing it etc.....)
Quote: Marcusclark66So many people here are saying, if the patrons can't smoke they won't go to the casino?
That doesn't make sense and I don't think that's exactly true in most cases. Even though people smoke, they still go to the casino they just stop doing what they're doing, they run outside they smoke they come back in. Same as any other business such as movie theaters, shopping malls, bars that don't allow smoking and all kinds of other public or private businesses and public areas that do not allow smoking.
If your a chain smoker and you need a cigarette hanging from your lips every minute of the day that you're awake, maybe those type of people don't go to the casino but if they want to gamble they will go even if there's no smoking allowed.
I work in casinos that allowed smoking in the past and several years ago cut some of it out prior to C19 and the rest of our casinos cut smoking out right after C19. I see the same people that are smokers and heavy smokers still coming to the casino all the time.
Non Smoker With A Huge Value on My Respiratory System
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
Professional Casino Security Expert
Certified Company Firearms Instructor
Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club
The difference is that if the smoker does come to the casino he doesn't stay very long. Many smoking patrons were only playing 30% of their usual handle after the law changed.
https://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3837&context=thesesdissertations
Quote: TDVegasThere might be some short term decline...but the basic conclusions are the economic effects are minimal on smoking bans. I take studies like this over anecdotal reporting. No insult intended.
https://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3837&context=thesesdissertations
Great article, only need to read a few pages to realize smoking needs to cease ASAP, because there will be neglible monetary effects for casinos.
Before the pandemic (border with Canada now closed) I would sometimes, at a reasonable inconvenience, drive an extra 10 minutes each way, pay a toll, and possibly get stuck at the border crossing for 30-60 minutes, get fewer comps, no free alcohol, to go to the Canadian non-smoking casino.
That would (virtually) never happen if smoking were banned at my local casino.
Quote: DeMangoGreat article, only need to read a few pages to realize smoking needs to cease ASAP, because there will be neglible monetary effects for casinos.
Only need a few pages to realize something that you already felt a certain way about strongly? I'd have thought you could do that in zero pages.
Non-Smokers Who Hate Second-Hand Smoke: Obviously, most people who fall into this camp are going to be very much in favor of smoking being banned in casinos by any means possible. With all due respect to some of the posters in this thread, and truly no offense meant, we have seen factually inaccurate categorical statements of purported fact presented in defense of this position.
Hardcore Smokers: Hardcore smokers are going to defend smoking (I don't even know if there are any in this thread) and use the same reasons Gandler and I do.
Libertarian-Minded Position: This is basically me (and Gandler, to an extent) for which this is really more of a fundamentally political thing than it is a matter of preference. Simply put, we don't want the Government(s) capriciously deciding what casinos should or should not be doing and present the different venues in which smoking is permitted (such as bars) and some common threads (that they are adults-only, as with casinos).
The higher the level of Government, the more likely we are to reject the notion of them imposing broad policy on this issue.
In my case, I'd prefer it to be left up to the individual casinos, but am not opposed to a public vote (either statewide or local) on the matter. If the voting public says, "No Smoking," then I don't have anything negative to say about the applicable Executive level enforcing the will of the public. This would almost always be city/county, except perhaps in those states (Pennsylvania is one example) in which state police happen to already be stationed at casinos.
In my opinion, the vote should be at whatever level the enforcement is most likely to take place.
I say this because I recently quit smoking and do not expect that I will ever smoke (other than occasional cigars) again. Point being, I should be opposed to smoking in casinos were I basing my opinions on my personal preference.
And, as ever, nobody is forced to go to casinos if the smoking really bothers them THAT much.
Quote: Mission146Only need a few pages to realize something that you already felt a certain way about strongly? I'd have thought you could do that in zero pages.
Nope, there was an outside possibility that you were right. Possibility evaporated quickly.
Quote: GandlerI do not think that anyone is disagreeing that people will still not go to casinos if smoking was banned. . . . I stand by my claim that the 75/25 split is very reasonable.
A few years ago, I inquired at a Biloxi casino hotel -- over 30 stories tall -- and learned that only 4 floors allowed smokers. Nowhere near 25 percent of the rooms were reserved for smokers. Vegas might be different.
Ummm... most current CDC data on tobacco smokers is that 14 percent of adults currently smoke regularly. And, the percentage of tobacco smokers has been falling for years. Would 85 percent smoke-free and 15 percent for smokers be more appropriate for casinos? Based on the data, that sounds reasonable also, right?
Quote: DeMangoNope, there was an outside possibility that you were right. Possibility evaporated quickly.
I'm not saying that business would go down long-term and never did say that. I speculated that the casinos might think that.
This is more an issue of I don't want the Government doing it arbitrarily, for me. I don't personally care if smoking is allowed or not. It smells a little, now that I don't smoke, but not enough to really bother me.
Quote: Mission146I'm not saying that business would go down long-term and never did say that. I speculated that the casinos might think that.
I think most of those arguments as it related to bars, nightclubs and restaurants...the doom and gloom didn’t pan out. Specifically, NYC bar owners were up in arms initially about the smoking ban. In the ensuing years, business was booming. The think the casinos are in the same boat. MGM’s National Harbor is booming with a no smoking ban.
I also think this would have to be applied across the board in Vegas. Ultimately, smokers are addicts. Addicts who smoke and gamble will give up neither. My guess is the report of smokers who left convenience stores and grocery stores merely migrated to Dotty’s or other places where they could smoke. It wasn’t an indication that smokers quit gambling or even curtailed their gambling.
They will migrate from venue to venue as more places ban it until they are ultimately forced to accept reality...they aren’t stopping their gambling or smoking. They will walk outside, get the fix, and get back playing.
Quote: TDVegasI think most of those arguments as it related to bars, nightclubs and restaurants...the doom and gloom didn’t pan out. Specifically, NYC bar owners were up in arms initially about the smoking ban. In the ensuing years, business was booming. The think the casinos are in the same boat. MGM’s National Harbor is booming with a no smoking ban.
I also think this would have to be applied across the board in Vegas. Ultimately, smokers are addicts. Addicts who smoke and gamble will give up neither. My guess is the report of smokers who left convenience stores and grocery stores merely migrated to Dotty’s or other places where they could smoke. It wasn’t an indication that smokers quit gambling or even curtailed their gambling.
They will migrate from venue to venue as more places ban it until they are ultimately forced to accept reality...they aren’t stopping their gambling or smoking. They will walk outside, get the fix, and get back playing.
Yeah, but that's where it can sometimes depend on the market. Go to Hancock County, WV, if you want to see a bunch of closed buildings that used to be VLT parlors all on the same drag...that county decided you can't smoke in those.
In Ohio County, WV, it was the same thing with bars. Another problem bars had, in that county, is that you could smoke in the parlors. You could also smoke in the parlor areas of bars, but some did not really have room for those, in others they were small, some bars did not want to have those areas, etc. If you go down to Main Street and Market Street in Wheeling, I'll give you no fewer than six locations that were formerly bars and went out of business within two years of that smoking ban. The only thing that the bars really could have that the parlors can't is liquor (Actually, the parlors simply choose not to). I'll also find you some other former bars elsewhere in the city that shuttered, some bars that just became parlors instead AND some brand new parlors in buildings that weren't there before!
If we jump to the State of Ohio, the bar business was similarly torched by no smoking, at least, as far as non-restaurants (or restaurants not being a major part of the business model) were concerned. This also somewhat depends on where in the state. I could give you a list of some towns within an area of only several square miles and say, "Pick a town," then I'll show you closed bars in whatever town you pick...nothing ever went into those buildings.
I know of one small town, in fact, that has gone from five bars to one and once had zero.
Another thing that you have to understand is that it gets pretty cold in the Winter around here, so that's also going to be a factor.
Anyway, I'll prove my anecdotal case all over the map, or send pictures and dates as I can find them. Obviously, some others have closed permanently because they couldn't weather the Covid-19 shutdowns.
Another problem you get with the smoking bans is uneven enforcement, though that wouldn't apply to casinos. In other words, some places the police or health department practically pops in twice a week, other places, there's a cop that hangs out in that bar who happens to be a smoker. When you have that, people quickly figure out which bar is, de facto, still a smoking bar. Needless to say, that one generally survives. Plastic cups with water in them, or empty cans...one place I knew of was brazen enough to go with ashtrays, but they wouldn't break one out unless you asked.
In any event, casinos are obviously totally different compared to bars. I was just addressing bars. Again, I'm also discussing areas with a MUCH higher percentage of smoking denizens than you are probably discussing.
Quote: mcallister3200Harrahs Council Bluffs has a low ceiling, and with the ceiling color being slightly lighter color grey, at least when I last visited several years ago, you can see spots where there is literally visibly accumulating chunks of ash on the ceiling along borders of the ceiling pattern where it’s not completely flat.. Probably one of the more disturbing things I’ve ever seen in a business open to the public.
Low ceilings are definitely an issue. Downtown Vegas has many low ceiling or lower ceiling places. Binions ceiling, if I recall, was a deep brown. LOL.
Ventilation helps. I guess air fresheners help too. The El Cortez has a distinct perfume odor.
Quote: LuckyPhowA few years ago, I inquired at a Biloxi casino hotel -- over 30 stories tall -- and learned that only 4 floors allowed smokers. Nowhere near 25 percent of the rooms were reserved for smokers. Vegas might be different.
Ummm... most current CDC data on tobacco smokers is that 14 percent of adults currently smoke regularly. And, the percentage of tobacco smokers has been falling for years. Would 85 percent smoke-free and 15 percent for smokers be more appropriate for casinos? Based on the data, that sounds reasonable also, right?
That is nationwide. States vary from the low teens to the mid 20s. Utah is the anomaly with only 9% of people being smokers, only signal digit state (Utah is very interesting for overall substances and vices, differing from other States like it, but that would be getting too political/religious to get into here). But, the point is there are differences between States. Should it be based on the local state, or city, or national, or international?
But if the floor restrictions are based on population. Should it be population of all adults, or just adult gamblers? Or if it is an international destination, should it be the worldwide population of adults? This is the problem with this line of thinking and this is why it should be up to the casino.
If a casino knows that roughly 50% of their regulars smoke, they can plan their floor accordingly. I think the 75/25 as a local ordinance (City level) is fine, because for AC up to 25% smoking is more than fair. If this was a State law it would annoy me a bit, but being a city-level policy, I think its reasonable.
But, I don't see any reason to change the law, casinos can have less floor space on their own by choice, it just gives a fair maximum. At the end of the day an individual casino knows what their customers want, if they cater mostly to smokers (whether that be from foreign countries or locals) let them be full smoking, and the people that are offended can go elsewhere, and vice-versa...
Quote: DRichThe difference is that if the smoker does come to the casino he doesn't stay very long. Many smoking patrons were only playing 30% of their usual handle after the law changed.
However the non-smokers appreciate the smoking ban or smoking restrictions far more than you care to admit.
And that would makeup excess profit than what the loss of 70% of the smokers business if that number is accurate, which I do not believe it is.
The non-smokers plus the smokers that do endure and stay does make up any loss that is realized because of smokers trying to reinstate or establish smoking on the floor to play as they normally would. If it did not the casinos would find a way around any local or state laws or provide such amenities to the smokers that would turn your head how fast they would do just that, if they were actually losing money because of it.
Non Smoker With An Extraordinary Value on My Respiratory System
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
Professional Casino Security Expert
Certified Company Firearms Instructor
Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club
Quote: Marcusclark66However the non-smokers appreciate the smoking ban or smoking restrictions far more than you care to admit.
And that would makeup excess profit than what the loss of 70% of the smokers business if that number is accurate, which I do not believe it is.
I am only admitting the facts as I see them from working in the casino and bar business. I know for a fact that the gaming business in the grocery stores dropped off 50% from when the smokers were allowed until now. It has probably been 7 years or so and the business is still down about that amount.
Las Vegas did ban smoking in the bars but it didn't last very long. I think it was less than a year until they changed the rules to allow smoking if no one under 21 is allowed.
Quote: DRichI am only admitting the facts as I see them from working in the casino and bar business. I know for a fact that the gaming business in the grocery stores dropped off 50% from when the smokers were allowed until now. It has probably been 7 years or so and the business is still down about that amount.
The person gambling in a grocery store or convenience store is NOT curtailing his gambling because smoking was banned. They are simply taking their cigs and money to a place that allows them to smoke and gamble. Dotty’s, casinos and any other small venue where they can have that cig hanging off their lip while they hit “spin”.
The 50% drop is NOT because this player said “can’t smoke, won’t gamble”.
He’s at another venue.
Quote: TDVegasThe person gambling in a grocery store or convenience store is NOT curtailing his gambling because smoking was banned. They are simply taking their cigs and money to a place that allows them to smoke and gamble. Dotty’s, casinos and any other small venue where they can have that cig hanging off their lip while they hit “spin”.
The 50% drop is NOT because this player said “can’t smoke, won’t gamble”.
He’s at another venue.
I don't know anything about this NV law. But, if true, isn't that statement essentially bolstering the point of your opposition?
Quote: TDVegasThe person gambling in a grocery store or convenience store is NOT curtailing his gambling because smoking was banned. They are simply taking their cigs and money to a place that allows them to smoke and gamble. Dotty’s, casinos and any other small venue where they can have that cig hanging off their lip while they hit “spin”.
The 50% drop is NOT because this player said “can’t smoke, won’t gamble”.
He’s at another venue.
You are correct but at the time they banned it all of the local places also banned it. The only place you could smoke was at a casino.
Quote: mcallister3200you can see spots where there is literally visibly accumulating chunks of ash on the ceiling along borders of the ceiling pattern where it’s not completely flat.. Probably one of the more disturbing things I’ve ever seen in a business open to the public.
It will be fascinating to use that as a reference point for how truly thorough and effective the "we close overnight for extensive deep cleaning and sanitization" was.
Quote: Mission146I'm not saying that business would go down long-term and never did say that. I speculated that the casinos might think that.
This is more an issue of I don't want the Government doing it arbitrarily, for me. I don't personally care if smoking is allowed or not. It smells a little, now that I don't smoke, but not enough to really bother me.
I hear you, I really do. Unfortunately rules need to be in place for individuals to not hurt others. In this case Government needs to kick casino ass. Totally agree with Lucky above. In some cases, States step in, I think some pussy states need Uncle Sam to wield the stick.
Quote: DieterIt will be fascinating to use that as a reference point for how truly thorough and effective the "we close overnight for extensive deep cleaning and sanitization" was.
Don't know if the Palace in Biloxi is who you speak of. Closed 3AM to 8. Great excuse to become profitable, working well, from dealer hearsay.
