Hard Rock Hotel & Casino / Ocean Resort Casino Atlantic City
Quote: darkozJmarch
You said you knew the hosts from previously
Did the Hard Rock hire back the same hosts?
Just curious
I do know that both properties hired back some of the hosts that were at the previous properties. Mine weren't. One came from Trop and one from Caesars.
Quote: Jmarch79***EXCERPT*** I used the surrender option when I was supposed to and the other players at the table definitely weren’t a fan. Oh well…
That has been my exact experience in AC when using Surrender (at GNAC) - people used to AC and not Vegas are pretty much clueless when it comes to Surrender -- when people find out the table offers it they usually claim "If the house offers it, it has to be good for the house" or they begin surrendering every hand 12-16 v dealer 9, 10, Ace
Quote: aceofspadesIs Ocean No RSA?
Yep, no RSA.
Heard they may already be changing rules in the players favor though. Rumor has it they are allowing 10X odds on craps out on the main floor too and not just in HL. Maybe if you walk by one of them, would you mind confirming?
Quote: aceofspadesI've been away from blackjack too long, what is "MSE" and "NMSE"
Mid-shoe entry and no mid-shoe entry.
Quote: Jmarch79Yep, no RSA.
Heard they may already be changing rules in the players favor though. Rumor has it they are allowing 10X odds on craps out on the main floor too and not just in HL. Maybe if you walk by one of them, would you mind confirming?
I thought Ocean had one table where it was 10X odds but you had to either take full odds or not at all...?
Quote: aceofspadesI thought Ocean had one table where it was 10X odds but you had to either take full odds or not at all.
I saw that on a travel blog site, but when I saw the actual table over the weekend, it didn't mention 10X or nothing. The tables on the main floor were 5X but someone told me as of yesterday, theres at least one 10X table on the main floor too.
Quote: Jmarch79Quote: aceofspadesI thought Ocean had one table where it was 10X odds but you had to either take full odds or not at all.
I saw that on a travel blog site, but when I saw the actual table over the weekend, it didn't mention 10X or nothing. The tables on the main floor were 5X but someone told me as of yesterday, theres at least one 10X table on the main floor too.
OK - will check it out
Quote: 100xOddsseen at soft opening:
lol
A week after opening:
seems like they cant keep the 'D' up :)
Quote: 100xOddsQuote: 100xOddsseen at soft opening:
lol
A week after opening:
seems like they cant keep the 'D' up :)
So Caesars is operating them already?
Who will pull the trigger first on either throwing in the towel and closing or going all in and trying to get the remaining pool of NJ Gamblers? Nothing has changed to increase the number of visitors to AC unless someone can gain conventions, so obviously the math doesn’t work.
AC is ghost town on winter weekdays and there no way it can support 9 casinos. So who blinks first?
Definitely will be interesting.
Quote: BozGreat reports and info so far but I’m more interested in the AC situation in the winter of 19/20. Obviously the luster of 2 new casinos will wear off this fall and winter when AC is a empty other than holidays and some weekends if sports betting takes off.
Who will pull the trigger first on either throwing in the towel and closing or going all in and trying to get the remaining pool of NJ Gamblers? Nothing has changed to increase the number of visitors to AC unless someone can gain conventions, so obviously the math doesn’t work.
AC is ghost town on winter weekdays and there no way it can support 9 casinos. So who blinks first?
Definitely will be interesting.
In my opinion, the market can withstand 8 casinos with no problem. Even all 9 if we can see decent growth, but I wouldn't bet we're going to see huge growth numbers in this particular gaming market.
My guess is CET closes the main Bally's floor and hotel. They keep the Wild Wild West open as an addition to Caesars.
My more detailed opinion is: I think without a doubt, Borgata will be fine. I do think Hard Rock will take a nice chunk of their share though. Which brings us to Hard Rock who I believe is secure as they have no public debt and big pockets. Harrah's should be fine as they captured a nice midweek business by adding the Waterfront Convention Center. On the same note, Ocean Resort should be fine as well. They have a massive amount of convention space and with the Hyatt affiliation (who will be selling their meetings) should be able to secure midweek business. Most think Ocean has no shot, but $200M in debt to service is a lot easier than $2.4B when it was Revel. Golden Nugget and Resorts have a core group of guests who are loyal. Both properties don't have a massive debt load and the past has shown can withstand the slower seasons. Resorts may even get nice boost being on the new 'it' side of town. Tropicana has always done well weekends and have invested a ton of money refreshing the place. With Eldorado Resorts just buying the joint, I'd imagine they have a solid plan. Finally, Caesars and Bally's - Caesars has a group of loyal players and believe it or not, gets a ton of high-end action. I think they're going to take a decent size hit to gaming revenues. Bally's is the one that really concerns me. I am not sure what they can do at this point.
The biggest screw-up the state and local government made (besides not cleaning up the city) is not investing in the airport. They have a market with almost 20,000 hotel rooms and could easily handle medium size conventions - MIDWEEK! Not all conventioneers will play on the gaming floor, but they have to eat, most will drink and they absolutely will be paying for their hotel rooms. If they would have invested in the airport so that the major airlines would want to fly into ACY, they could have absolutely attracted that midweek convention business that they desperately need. It is what it is at this point....I am going to remain bullish on the AC market and hope it makes a comeback.
Quote: Jmarch79*EXCERPT*
The biggest screw-up the state and local government made (besides not cleaning up the city) is not investing in the airport
Without cleaning up the city, it is difficult to attract conventions
Quote: Jmarch79In my opinion, the market can withstand 8 casinos with no problem. Even all 9 if we can see decent growth, but I wouldn't bet we're going to see huge growth numbers in this particular gaming market.
My guess is CET closes the main Bally's floor and hotel. They keep the Wild Wild West open as an addition to Caesars.
My more detailed opinion is: I think without a doubt, Borgata will be fine. I do think Hard Rock will take a nice chunk of their share though. Which brings us to Hard Rock who I believe is secure as they have no public debt and big pockets. Harrah's should be fine as they captured a nice midweek business by adding the Waterfront Convention Center. On the same note, Ocean Resort should be fine as well. They have a massive amount of convention space and with the Hyatt affiliation (who will be selling their meetings) should be able to secure midweek business. Most think Ocean has no shot, but $200M in debt to service is a lot easier than $2.4B when it was Revel. Golden Nugget and Resorts have a core group of guests who are loyal. Both properties don't have a massive debt load and the past has shown can withstand the slower seasons. Resorts may even get nice boost being on the new 'it' side of town. Tropicana has always done well weekends and have invested a ton of money refreshing the place. With Eldorado Resorts just buying the joint, I'd imagine they have a solid plan. Finally, Caesars and Bally's - Caesars has a group of loyal players and believe it or not, gets a ton of high-end action. I think they're going to take a decent size hit to gaming revenues. Bally's is the one that really concerns me. I am not sure what they can do at this point.
The biggest screw-up the state and local government made (besides not cleaning up the city) is not investing in the airport. They have a market with almost 20,000 hotel rooms and could easily handle medium size conventions - MIDWEEK! Not all conventioneers will play on the gaming floor, but they have to eat, most will drink and they absolutely will be paying for their hotel rooms. If they would have invested in the airport so that the major airlines would want to fly into ACY, they could have absolutely attracted that midweek convention business that they desperately need. It is what it is at this point....I am going to remain bullish on the AC market and hope it makes a comeback.
ACY airport is actually one of the best in the country, and can accept virtually all aircraft flying. The FAA Technical Center is there, and so they get all the best, cutting-edge equipment installed first or close to first, so the FAA can do long-term testing and maintenance training.
The longest runway is 10,000 ft, which works for every pax jet flying in the US. Landing minimums are below 300' and 1/2 mile visibility , and takeoff minimums 1/4 mile viz, all very standard.
Airlines have tried regular routes many times. The passengers aren't there to sustain them. I'm quite sure ACY would expand their terminal to more gates if the demand was there. But gates aren't necessary. Planes can simply load and unload to the ramp.
The issues are:
Philadelphia is only 50 miles away. There's a train, shuttles, and rental cars to AC. PHL has major air carrier service. It's not cost effective for airlines to serve both.
DC is 4 hours drive. NYC about the same. Lots of buses from both, lots of people want a car in AC. Local transportation in AC sucked last time I was there, and I'm not aware it's improved. So people drive.
AC is a regional destination. Hardly anybody flies in from further away than they can drive.
And, yeah, the place is a pit with a few casinos. The airport is ready, willing, and able to take a lot more traffic than it gets. But as a destination, it runs far behind Vegas, Orlando, NYC, a dozen others that offer variety and a complete resort experience.
Quote: beachbumbabsACY airport is actually one of the best in the country, and can accept virtually all aircraft flying. The FAA Technical Center is there, and so they get all the best, cutting-edge equipment installed first or close to first, so the FAA can do long-term testing and maintenance training.
The longest runway is 10,000 ft, which works for every pax jet flying in the US. Landing minimums are below 300' and 1/2 mile visibility , and takeoff minimums 1/4 mile viz, all very standard.
Airlines have tried regular routes many times. The passengers aren't there to sustain them. I'm quite sure ACY would expand their terminal to more gates if the demand was there. But gates aren't necessary. Planes can simply load and unload to the ramp.
The issues are:
Philadelphia is only 50 miles away. There's a train, shuttles, and rental cars to AC. PHL has major air carrier service. It's not cost effective for airlines to serve both.
DC is 4 hours drive. NYC about the same. Lots of buses from both, lots of people want a car in AC. Local transportation in AC sucked last time I was there, and I'm not aware it's improved. So people drive.
AC is a regional destination. Hardly anybody flies in from further away than they can drive.
And, yeah, the place is a pit with a few casinos. The airport is ready, willing, and able to take a lot more traffic than it gets. But as a destination, it runs far behind Vegas, Orlando, NYC, a dozen others that offer variety and a complete resort experience.
Thanks for the details on ACY...very informative. While I agree it could never do the convention numbers of the cities you mentioned, it could still do a nice amount. This is where the local convention/visitors authority would get involved. The ACCVA would offer these groups incentives to come to AC and bring their medium to large-ish conventions to AC. That would literally be their primary role. It is not rocket science and cities have done it in the past - extremely successfully.
No one is discounting the fact the city is in the pits (hence why I said the airport was the biggest problem besides them not cleaning up the city.) They need to make that priority #1, but if the local government would get their heads out of their you know whats, they could really turn that city around for the better.
Quote: aceofspadesWithout cleaning up the city, it is difficult to attract conventions
That does not play a factor with conventions. I am going to be there in Aug for a large corporate convention. They dont care about rest of the city. 1 big factor though is getting there. It is not easy to fly in
Hard Rock was also nice. You could hardly tell it was the same place as the Taj. They spent a lot of money on it.
You could tell both places didn’t just reopen from when they closed. They were very clean, even the parking garages(hint hint, Bally’s) and had great lighting. I despise paying for parking, so the free parking was great. The lines were very long to get a players card, so I skipped that. There did seem to be a lot more people getting cards and walking around and not as many playing. Plenty of $10-15 blackjack tables open.
One thing I don’t like about AC in general is it seems really difficult to get anything to eat there. I mean literally. I go there to gamble. I couldn’t care less about fancy restaurants. Both places seemed to have a lot of sit down places. I literally just want a place that I can go order a beef fried rice without getting ripped off and eat it. The struggle is real.
Quote: Jmarch79While I agree it could never do the convention numbers of the cities you mentioned, it could still do a nice amount.
The company I worked for did a huge convention at Harrah's AC last year. The benefit of AC was that it could handle the thousand or so people, with hotel rooms that were far cheaper than what was available in Philly or NYC (where I would estimate 50% of those 1000 people live).
It was well run, and they sure made some money in the casino off of us.
Quote: SandybestdogI went to the openings and hung around for a few days. Ocean was nice. I had never gone to the Revel. I did find the circular floor layout a little confusing. I could never quite figure out where I was. I hope it does well. The new owner seems like a good guy.
Hard Rock was also nice. You could hardly tell it was the same place as the Taj. They spent a lot of money on it.
You could tell both places didn’t just reopen from when they closed. They were very clean, even the parking garages(hint hint, Bally’s) and had great lighting. I despise paying for parking, so the free parking was great. The lines were very long to get a players card, so I skipped that. There did seem to be a lot more people getting cards and walking around and not as many playing. Plenty of $10-15 blackjack tables open.
One thing I don’t like about AC in general is it seems really difficult to get anything to eat there. I mean literally. I go there to gamble. I couldn’t care less about fancy restaurants. Both places seemed to have a lot of sit down places. I literally just want a place that I can go order a beef fried rice without getting ripped off and eat it. The struggle is real.
Ocean is definitely lacking a few quick serve restaurants at the moment. That shouldn't be the case by August. They are completing the construction for a few of their F&B outlets. Hard Rock has a bunch of quick options on the 2nd floor by the Wild Card Services desk - including a White House Sub Shop (yum!)
Happy to hear you enjoyed both properties while checking them out!
One thing that bears repeating is if you are taking part in their loyalty card match deal you should get Hard Rocks card first and then Ocean Resorts. If you match a Caesars Entertainment card at Ocean first you only get a Platinum card and it does not have free valet parking. Use your Rock Royalty card and get a Black card.
Quote: beachbumbabs
The issues are:
Philadelphia is only 50 miles away. There's a train, shuttles, and rental cars to AC. PHL has major air carrier service. It's not cost effective for airlines to serve both.
DC is 4 hours drive. NYC about the same. Lots of buses from both, lots of people want a car in AC. Local transportation in AC sucked last time I was there, and I'm not aware it's improved. So people drive.
Many years ago I went from Las Vegas to Atlantic City every week for 51 straight weeks. I always found it easier to fly to Philadelphia and drive in.
hard rock's top tier = Rock royalty?Quote: BobVBWe have been to both Hard Rock and Ocean Casino and are interested in what others think about them. Their websites are a little light on information about their loyalty programs. It would be nice if there was a way to see if you are entitled to a comped room or other freebees and such.
One thing that bears repeating is if you are taking part in their loyalty card match deal you should get Hard Rocks card first and then Ocean Resorts. If you match a Caesars Entertainment card at Ocean first you only get a Platinum card and it does not have free valet parking.
Use your Rock Royalty card and get a Black card.
what do the other casinos match 'Rock Royalty' with?
and how long will Hard Rock give out Rock Royalty for Caesar's diamond?
till end of July? end of summer? forever??
Quote: 100xOddshard rock's top tier = Rock royalty?
what do the other casinos match 'Rock Royalty' with?
and how long will Hard Rock give out Rock Royalty for Caesar's diamond?
till end of July? end of summer? forever??
The top public tier at Hard Rock is Rock Royalty. There is a level above it that is by invitation only.
Tier Match ends September 3.
CET Diamond and Seven Stars, M life Gold, Platinum and Nior, Golden Nugget Chairman and Elite, Tropicana Platinum and Black and Resorts Paramount and Red Carpet are the AC competitor tiers that will be matched to Hard Rock Wild Card Rock Royalty.
thx for the date.Quote: Jmarch79The top public tier at Hard Rock is Rock Royalty. There is a level above it that is by invitation only.
Tier Match ends September 3.
CET Diamond and Seven Stars, M life Gold, Platinum and Nior, Golden Nugget Chairman and Elite, Tropicana Platinum and Black and Resorts Paramount and Red Carpet are the AC competitor tiers that will be matched to Hard Rock Wild Card Rock Royalty.
Don't understand the tier matching from other casinos to rock royalty?
Quote: 100xOddsthx for the date.
Don't understand the tier matching from other casinos to rock royalty?
Is there something I can clarify for you? It's pretty simple, bring any of the cards I mentioned in my most recent post to Hard Rock and they will give you Rock Royalty (along with 2 buffets, 2 comedy club tix, 2 comp nights in the hotel and $150 in free slot play.)
ahh.. I meant the opposite.Quote: Jmarch79Is there something I can clarify for you? It's pretty simple, bring any of the cards I mentioned in my most recent post to Hard Rock and they will give you Rock Royalty (along with 2 buffets, 2 comedy club tix, 2 comp nights in the hotel and $150 in free slot play.)
if you have rock royalty, what would the other casinos give you for THEIR rewards card?
Quote: 100xOddsahh.. I meant the opposite.
if you have rock royalty, what would the other casinos give you for THEIR rewards card?
Ocean will give you their Black card along with a two night stay and $100 free play, and Golden Nugget will give you their Elite trade-up card (doesn't have the same benefits of the true Elite card.)
thx!Quote: Jmarch79Ocean will give you their Black card along with a two night stay and $100 free play, and Golden Nugget will give you their Elite trade-up card (doesn't have the same benefits of the true Elite card.)
do you know if Trop matches any casino reward cards?
Quote: 100xOddsthx!
do you know if Trop matches any casino reward cards?
No, they do not.
Quote: HarryLymeTrue, but I think the bump in cashback and comp dollar earning is plus, especially if you already play there. Why not get the most value at no extra cost. Funny that they match Ocean and Hard Rock's top cards. Odds asked about Trop. I can't imagine they won't match soon, as almost everyone else in town is doing some kind of match. Yes, they claim they're rolling back on comps, but now may not be the best time to do it.
True regarding Golden Nugget. If you play there anyways, why not receive the extra bump in cashback/freeplay?
As for Trop matching - who knows? Like you said, everyone else is, so why not them and Resorts?
My personal opinion is that I am not a fan of tier matching. It dilutes the program for legitimate loyal players. If I ran marketing at these properties I'd offer an accelerated earning tier program for those with higher tier competitor cards. Example: "Ok, Mr. Jmarch, I see you have the highest tier at X casino. You have X months to earn just X tier points and we will give you our highest tier along with the following bonuses." This gives the player time to experience the property and the casino to see play patterns - all without diluting the current program too much.
I
I will say tier matching is a very good thing. As a casino, you want the big(ger) players on your property spending money. Doesn't matter if they're low grinding Diamonds or MLife Gold members, that's steady money. Why would any player want to start at the bottom at a competitor? Only play provides the kickback, so the casino is giving you a test run by hooking you up with the card and comping you based on the play you bring. So, the main thing is the player HAS to commit to one or two of the properties, or they lose VIP status at all of them. Giving any Joe or Joanne status is easy, and probably costs less than trying to lure in someone new with a promo. Plus in AC, at least, almost every property charges VIP lounge admission, so simply matching doesn't provide any benefit that would effectively "dilute" the program or overcrowd the lounge. If you've earned the $10 plus in admission, you deserve to go get a drink in there. A legitimate, loyal player should have no problem with that, IMO.
Quote: HarryLymeI think Golden Nugget has a good handle on what you said, and so does Ocean, in a way. GN has said here's your sample, now you have 90 days to get X points, and you'll have status until 2020. That's pretty good, especially if your Trade Up card is eligible for the 3X/4X promo days. CET did basically the same thing last year. Ocean, on the other hand, is giving you til September 30th and they will re-evaluate your tier. Buuuuttt...what if I sign up at the end of August? I think providing a goal would go a long way to making people reach it.
I will say tier matching is a very good thing. As a casino, you want the big(ger) players on your property spending money. Doesn't matter if they're low grinding Diamonds or MLife Gold members, that's steady money. Why would any player want to start at the bottom at a competitor? Only play provides the kickback, so the casino is giving you a test run by hooking you up with the card and comping you based on the play you bring. So, the main thing is the player HAS to commit to one or two of the properties, or they lose VIP status at all of them. Giving any Joe or Joanne status is easy, and probably costs less than trying to lure in someone new with a promo. Plus in AC, at least, almost every property charges VIP lounge admission, so simply matching doesn't provide any benefit that would effectively "dilute" the program or overcrowd the lounge. If you've earned the $10 plus in admission, you deserve to go get a drink in there. A legitimate, loyal player should have no problem with that, IMO.
You bring up some very valid points. I think my main issue is that I am tired of the "VIP" line being longer than the regular line as most places. Having status at a property used to mean something, now everyone and their Uncle has a premium card. Just my opinion, of course.
Quote: HarryLymeI think Golden Nugget has a good handle on what you said, and so does Ocean, in a way.
GN has said here's your sample, now you have 90 days to get X points, and you'll have status until 2020.
That's pretty good, especially if your Trade Up card is eligible for the 3X/4X promo days.
though gn had permanent point multipliers for their elite Trade up card?
but cant find it on their website any more :(
Quote: BobVBWe are enrolled in the loyalty program at Hard Rock in Atlantic City. Their web site’s “Wild Card Rewards Benefits” page states that to check you r rewards balances go to . This brings you to the home page of the Atlantic City Hard Rock again with no place to sign in. Am I too early or is the site not up to steam yet? Any ideas on where to find the loyalty stuff?
HR Wild Card is the same loyalty program Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood (FL) uses. Maybe you can check it on their website, but I don't know if they're linked.
The one in Biloxi uses a different loyalty program. (Gold, Platinum, Double Plat, etc) Not sure what any others use.
Quote: BobVBWe are enrolled in the loyalty program at Hard Rock in Atlantic City. Their web site’s “Wild Card Rewards Benefits” page states that to check you r rewards balances go to . This brings you to the home page of the Atlantic City Hard Rock again with no place to sign in. Am I too early or is the site not up to steam yet? Any ideas on where to find the loyalty stuff?
The Wild Card portal to view offers and account balances for the AC property is not active yet. They said it should be available in the near future.
Quote: beachbumbabsHR Wild Card is the same loyalty program Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood (FL) uses. Maybe you can check it on their website, but I don't know if they're linked.
The one in Biloxi uses a different loyalty program. (Gold, Platinum, Double Plat, etc) Not sure what any others use.
Hard Rock Wild Card for the AC property and the Seminole Wild Card are unfortunately not linked. If you do play at the Florida properties and have an interest in coming to Hard Rock Atlantic City, you can reach out to a host who will then reach out to one of their colleagues in Florida who can pull your play and then AC can comp you based on that play.
AC is currently a stand alone program and it doesn't appear they have any plans to merge the loyalty program with any of the other Hard Rock Hotel & Casino locations.
Quote: 100xOddsthx!
do you know if Trop matches any casino reward cards?
They usually do everytime a local casino closes (which has been frequent over the last 10 years), but usually just from that specific casino to pull new loyal customers.
The Borgata buffetQuote: Jmarch79You bring up some very valid points. I think my main issue is that I am tired of the "VIP" line being longer than the regular line as most places. Having status at a property used to mean something, now everyone and their Uncle has a premium card. Just my opinion, of course.
Quote: HarryLymeGN has said here's your sample, now you have 90 days to get X points, and you'll have status until 2020.
That's pretty good, especially if your Trade Up card is eligible for the 3X/4X promo days. CET did basically the same thing last year.
Ocean, on the other hand, is giving you til September 30th and they will re-evaluate your tier. Buuuuttt...what if I sign up at the end of August? I think providing a goal would go a long way to making people reach it.
is there a point multiplier at Ocean for tier matched Black card?
if so, details? (cant find it on their website)
Quote: 100xOddsis there a point multiplier at Ocean for tier matched Black card?
if so, details? (cant find it on their website)
They are offering 3X tier points for everyone through September 30. No opt in needed.
Everyone also receives 2X comps, everyday. Premier Blue and Gold members need to opt in at a kiosk. For Platinum and Black members, it is automatic.
thx!Quote: Jmarch79They are offering 3X tier points for everyone through September 30. No opt in needed.
Everyone also receives 2X comps, everyday. Premier Blue and Gold members need to opt in at a kiosk. For Platinum and Black members, it is automatic.
with the 3x multiplier, how much coin-in at vp to maintain Black tier?
Quote: 100xOddsthx!
with the 3x multiplier, how much coin-in at vp to maintain Black tier?
Every $1 in theoretical loss = 9 tier credits (including the 3X bonus, 3 tier credits without). How much coin in depends on the hold for the machine you're playing. To earn the Black Tier outright, one must earn 75,000 tier points. That means if you did all your play before September 30, you'd need a theoretical loss of $8,333 to achieve Black. After September 30, 75,000 tier credits = $25K in theo (ouch!)
Quote: Jmarch79Every $1 in theoretical loss = 9 tier credits (including the 3X bonus, 3 tier credits without). How much coin in depends on the hold for the machine you're playing. To earn the Black Tier outright, one must earn 75,000 tier points. That means if you did all your play before September 30, you'd need a theoretical loss of $8,333 to achieve Black. After September 30, 75,000 tier credits = $25K in theo (ouch!)
I was told that I need to earn 25,000 TCs before September 30th to keep black, counting the 3X.
points based on theo loss makes baby jesus cry.Quote: Jmarch79Every $1 in theoretical loss = 9 tier credits (including the 3X bonus, 3 tier credits without). How much coin in depends on the hold for the machine you're playing. To earn the Black Tier outright, one must earn 75,000 tier points. That means if you did all your play before September 30, you'd need a theoretical loss of $8,333 to achieve Black. After September 30, 75,000 tier credits = $25K in theo (ouch!)
looks like I wont bother trying to keep black
Quote: HarryLymeI was told that I need to earn 25,000 TCs before September 30th to keep black, counting the 3X.
Haven't heard that, but that sounds fair. That equates to a theo of around $2,800 which isn't bad.
