Mar 20, 2016
Again, the question is asked
Again, the question is asked, “Why is a casino extending credit without knowing whether the person has the funds to pay it?”from:
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2011/jan/30/taking-casinos-ride/
Media accounts of unpaid markers owed to casinos do tend to maintain that it is both of these two things: a crime, and a mystery.
I maintain it is no mystery as to why a casino would extend credit "without knowing whether the person has the funds to pay it". Furthermore, making it a crime, I maintain, is merely a legal trick in most cases by the fancy maneuver of turning a loan into a bad check. Unpaid loans in the 21st century should not be considered crimes.
I get the feeling people are not following me when I say, under certain circumstances, a casino loaning money to a gambler is very low cost and thus not much risk, and makes plenty of sense in the face of apparent stupidity. To illustrate I'll take it away from the real world of gambling and imagine it from a different angle. Let's say there is a carousel operator who lets riders grab and keep brass rings that are exchangeable for real money. Being a good businessman, he charges enough for a ticket that the vast majority of riders going for the brass rings fail to capture enough that he would fail to make a profit from providing this entertainment. He might find there are a few people who can come out ahead - he's got to discourage them! - but that won't be the subject of this illustration.
Any reasonable person has to acknowledge the man is entitled to his profits. He has considerable capital invested, daily operating expenses, considerable cost of upkeep, mouths to feed at home, etc. Yet once he starts the carousel, it costs the same to run it for one person at a time as it does the dozen or so who would fill all the saddles.
In the meantime he notices that some people who go for those brass rings get hooked on the idea they can come out ahead while failing to realize they aren't going to beat the odds with their abilities except occasionally. It turns out [in this imaginary world] that these same players will do just about anything to get to ride. They keep raising the money somehow and he realizes that he winds up keeping most of whatever it is they manage to scrounge up. Additionally, it becomes pretty clear that a select few of these riders have become pretty important to his business. They seem to have a lot of money and if he makes special rides for them with especially valuable brass rings they spend until the money is all gone. He makes a few bucks off everybody else but a lot of bucks off these people and however he can keep them playing it would be smart to do it.
If he let's people ride now and pay later, he's going to try to collect that and surely he is within his rights to do so. For most of his riders, though, there's not much reason to give them such loans, nor do many of them even want them. But for these that get addicted, he realizes he has a special situation. They ride so much that the chances of any one of them coming out ahead becomes infinitesimal. He can loan them tickets, and tickets only, and they will fill the rest of those saddles otherwise empty and his only cost for such generosity, even if they never pay for the tickets, is next to nothing. He allows some of these people to really get into considerable debt for the tickets and makes sure that they aren't able to turn the tickets into money in any other way. When they do win during a certain session, he also makes sure that those winnings go to paying off this debt. To the player and general public, it might seem that it's stupid to loan these tickets to someone so desperately unable to pay for them, but secretly he knows the facts. The tickets cost him almost nothing. The rider keeps coming up with money. He had a lot to begin with, which you have now. Often his type is good with coming up with more and more, so why not see if you can get that too? He has a certain income maybe; you'll get that too. He is very likely to lie, cheat, beg or steal to get more; you'll get that too.
If this carousel operator can get the local authorities to help him collect, he's really got it made. Turns out that you can loan money and get the players to write checks, or agree to a system of automatic check debit, that makes any unpaid loans a matter of writing bad checks too. And wow the Media and the legal system to some degree is going to be on your side.
Some guys have it made, he just has to hope there aren't too many other merry-go-rounds out there to go to!
Feb 06, 2016
The Mystery Loans to Degenerate Gamblers
I have noticed many times that obviously degenerate gamblers are often allowed to go deeply in debt to some gambling entity, including big casinos. The latest is Clinton Portis; I started a thread on that but thought I would preserve my thoughts here too:Over the years I've given some thought to this sort of thing, giving a degenerate gambler credit. Why does this happen? Portis is hardly alone.
Here is one scenario that comes to mind:
You offer a game in which you have a large edge to someone you find can't stop himself from playing and playing, and is pretty much assured to give it all back.
The 'credit' is only good for making bets with you at this game.
At the beginning you know he has a lot of money.
At another point, you know you have all of his money.
So, what does it hurt to be sure? You let him continue to play with this special kind of credit. What is the risk? He always gives it all back. Maybe he lives off some small part of it when he gets lucky, but remember, you took *all* his money already. 99% of it, you are going to just get it back. For one thing, when he does win, you'll be demanding he pay off his debt.
Perhaps he has some sort of income. You will get that too. Perhaps he will beg, lie, cheat, borrow and steal to get more money to gamble with. You will get that too. You wind up owning this guy, you have total power over him.
I first started thinking about this when someone I knew [just a little] was allegedly and apparently killed for owing the mob money. Or maybe he was talking to the police about their illegal game; he was stealing from the gas station he managed, allegedly. I don't know anything for a fact other than clearly he was murdered mob style.
In any case I decided there was a certain logic to what would seem to make no sense at all.
Comments
Any idea who gives these mystery loans to degenerate gamblers? just out of idle curiosity......
Perhaps you are hinting in a humorous way you want one of these loans.
No you don't.
Well, feel free to set up 'markers' with some casino. It is possible to use them and not get into a jam. But you don't want to be in this situation.
Maurice Clarett is another guy this happened to.
There seems usually to be a hint that illegal gambling outfits are the ones to do this, but one thing to take away from this is that brick and mortar casinos will do it too. That system of 'markers' that they use has all the aspects of risk-free loaning that the illegal guys get into, and produces the same result.
When you search google news, the Clinton Portis stories all slavishly report that he was writing bad checks. Yes, he was, but the way he was forced into doing it will some day be illegal in some states, I predict. It's that 'marker' system. Perhaps it is illegal in some states now.
spam ... never caught it till later
spam ... never caught it till later
Dec 18, 2015
Own Petard Hoisting
Recently I got my fix - I seem to be able to go about 2 months without gambling - at Rocky Gap again.I had a deal earned with Hotels dot com where I was going to have to pay near nothing, and was able to use it at the Casino hotel, something unusual. But checking back later, I noticed there was a "stay and play" promotion where you pay $99 for a room [+ tax] and get $99 in freeplay - something I was not in on the way I booked. Pretty sweet deal, and still going on btw, but it either it was not available when I booked, or I failed to see it.
I was reluctant to cancel and re-book, who knows what kind of hassle I'd get into with re-activating my deal with H.com and besides, the 'near nothing' cost with using that rebate was more of a sure thing than freeplay, and it had an expiration date.
But it occurs to me, what if I can get both deals? Might be kind of greedy, but I could get some bragging rights and what would it hurt to ask? So I tried to see if I could get in on the deal at check-in and it started off good. They clearly were getting a lot of these "I didn't find out till later you had the deal" requests and were ready to get it fixed. Unfortunately, I got a lady who had not been on the job long, and didn't realize when I told her I booked through H.com that this would mean ixnay on the freeplay. She tried this, she tried that, she declared victory when she used my credit card only to have me repeat for the third time that the room was already paid for! So finally a supervisor came out after a good solid 20 minutes if not more and took care of getting me checked in ... sorry, no freeplay. I don't know why, I paid $99 plus, but it is easy to imagine the hotel has to pay some commission to H.com. I really wasn't angry, and had already decided to accept disappointment, expected it even.
Yet an eternal period of time to check in is not my idea of fun. I thought of how much I hated to be behind somebody with some kind of BS like this going on! Yes, people behind me got held up. All hoisted along with me on my own petard.
It didn't look at first like anyone would join me [I only contacted a few folks who might live close] but I was pleased to find that member Teddys could adjust his schedule a bit so our paths would meet for a few hours. I was glad to hear he got in on the $99 freeplay promotion - with 100% recovery in play on that too. His luck continued as we joined each other to play Craps and UTH too, from what I could gather. My luck, "not so much", till after Teddy had gone on, but then things improved. My own rolling at Craps, deplorable at first, ended with a hand where I hit 4 numbers, salvaging things at that enterprise somewhat. Then next morning just as I needed to leave anyway I colored up and split after a 4-oak at UTH nicely timed - this put me at -4 dollars gambling for the trip. I would have been up somewhat but I continue to over-tip these days, and gave it all away. But no complaints from me when you can break even or close to it like that.
I'm getting reports now that Teddy swung by again on his return loop and left a smoking crater at this casino. I'll let him tell you, if he comments.
The table games I play don't open with much till 10 AM, so this gave me an opportunity to fully investigate Rocky Gap VP including getting more serious about the Ultimate X. Prior to the trip, I made myself comprehend better what the Wizard has to say about it at the WoO site, having previously found myself a little on the dense side trying to pick it up. Also, I wanted to re-familiarize myself with Deuces Wild, a game available on Ult-X while JoB and regular Bonus Poker was not, I had found, from previous dabbling at that casino. I knew that generally speaking Rocky Gap isn't interested in providing good VP, bartop type providing the only reasonably priced option these days. Even if you want to play $1 per unit, the paytables don't improve much and the W2-g for the big hit looms at that price too, for 5-unit rounds.
So I scanned the Ultimate X screens for multipliers left behind a bit each time I had a chance. What I could inconsistently find was nickel players working 3-play with 2X or so multipliers left, not too exciting. Changing the unit price to 25 cents didn't work, the multipliers vanished. I checked out the games and paytables again; writing down the paytables gave me a funny feeling, not being sure how that would be received. After all, you wouldn't sit down there with a laptop and do it. So I just took a pen and wrote what I could on my hand.
This time still no JoB but there were varieties of Bonus Poker, the Double and Double Double and all that. I've never tried to see how different the strategies are for those as opposed to Bonus. Deuces Wild was what I had practiced prior to arrival, and it was available again. At 25 cents the paytable was
200
20
12
10
4
4
3
2
1
I didn't check the multiplier tables.
At WoO the wizard return table page shows this as "Deuces Wild 20/12/10/4/4/3 .... 97.9863%" It does seem to me that some people might find this playable without the vulturing. So I started a thread on it, http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/24508-not-vulturing-ultimate-x/
I also was able to confirm paytables a little better for regular VP. GameKing on the floor near the Ult-X was $1 minimum [grrr]. JOB paytable for it fit the wizard return table of "8/6" Jacks or Better" .... 98.3927%. Stingy for something demanding $1 units IMO.
Bartop VP allowed 25c play, which IMO makes the difference between playable or not including the W2-g factor - however, the HE is worse. Bonus Poker I identified on the wizard return table as "35-6-5 — 97.36%". The only "bonus" is 4 aces?
Bartop JoB was 8/5 ... wizard return table puts this at 97.3%. Thus close to a coin-toss to play Bonus Poker or JoB or save your money and read a newspaper till the Craps Table or UTH table set up.
PS: BJ tables open up early, maybe are available all night, and the rules are good. CSM with Lucky Lucky side bet, the paytable for which is 5.3% HE. [maybe this changed but is much worse]
Comments
I hit a royal vulturing UX for $0.10, ($400), then 4 2's x 4 vulturing on $0.05 (about $80), then won $800 playing craps. I love Rocky Gap!
>I love Rocky Gap!
I always 'kind of' liked 'em, and as long as they are doing the 'stay and play' freeplay thing the place is really getting hard to hate ! I'm tempted to head right back - it'd be hard to sell to the Missus though LOL
Good report and always good when board members can meet up - brings more "reality" to it (for me, at least)
Wishing you all the best in 2016!
sounds good!
Jul 11, 2015
RG III
No, not the football player. Rocky Gap again, short report.Went back this week, this time with the Missus; this was a first for us there. She managed to get some golf in although that was a close call due to rain. Man, East coast is getting plenty of rain this summer.
Did alright with Craps and UTH, with a $300+ session at both along with some losing sessions. Wound up netting to the positive side by over $300 so left happy.
My rolling was awful so at the one Craps session I just started passing the dice to some dudes who were getting it done. Stuck with the Right side this time as there were plenty wanting to play, and the common goal made it fun. The session was pretty short though, the wife collected me for dinner and for later action I was interested in getting plenty of UTH in.
The UTH kind of my new thing, did several sessions, enough really to give the odds of netting out a loser somewhat likely - luck was with me though I guess. I'm really focusing now on cutting down on my own errors, the game to me has become about netting out the errors to the favorable side [to some degree]. One problem is dealers not really being given a procedure to follow to keep them from going too fast. I really try to make the quickest decision possible for the first bet ... after all that decision should be quick anyway. I make sure now I have the 4x and 2x chips ready to go. Wouldn't you know though, one mistake I made was watching my hand go from crap to 2 pair as the river was turned over, got happy about it and forgot to bet! So now part of my 'thing' is to have the single chip in one hand at all times to remind me!
Also notable was the absolute fit the dealers and the other players were having over me declining the Trips bet. Worst ever, but I never let it ruin a good time. In the case of the dealers, I actually wonder if they get chastised for having a player decline to make the side bet in that game. Curiously enough, I don't disdain this particular one due to the paytable used. I usually make one or two for a lark in a session [placating nobody].
As far as VP goes, they have put in now some Ultimate X machines and for sure RG attracts the kind of players that will leave multipliers active. Just saying.
Comments
Good to hear about the Ultimate X back in -- last time I was there I couldn't find them.
It is truly beautiful down there. I suggested to Pierce that the next WoVCon East should be there, before the weather gets bad.
>the next WoVCon East should be there
Is it definitely in the works for somewhere?
Nah, it's all on Mission2Game (heh) to figure that out. I suggested Rocky Gap. Also a possibility is Lady Luck Nemacolin. I'm sick of the Meadows. Also, somebody (not gonna say who) is no longer a "welcome" guest there :)
I have a pretty busy Fall lined up but would love to show up if possible. I would be the wrong one to talk it up of course.
Jun 13, 2015
Rocky Gap Again part II
I also played some BJ, 3 card poker, UTH, and a bit of VP.The latter was pretty awful. It's only available at the casino bar for 25 cents, out on the floor you have to play dollars and at least 3 lines at once. At the bar JOB was 8/5 and BONUS was 6/5 - 97.3% for JOB and about the same or probably worse for BONUS [I only noted that it was 6/5 and that gives a lot of possibilities I see now]. Killed a little time at these machines and lost $27 overall playing JOB. IIRC for $15 a pull at the floor machines you got the honor of playing still pretty bad paytables. As Teddy has noted elsewhere, they decided to gut their VP offerings, they used to be slightly better.
The BJ rules are good there including Surrender, this might be due to Maryland insistence as is done in PA, not sure.
3:2
6D
S17
DAS
D any 2
RSA
LS
resplit limit: you can resplit once
re-hitting split aces - no
CSM
For my taste, and since I am a flat-bettor, the variance in BJ is too low to get excited even with good rules, so I refuse to play very long. Additionally, lately, in the face of Wizardly disapproval, I have been attempting to increase the variance at the cost of HE - this by putting some money on side bets if they aren't outrageous. Told that the 21+3 was no longer being offered, I glanced at what was printed on the table and thought I saw 'Lucky Ladies' - I knew I wasn't playing that as any HE I've seen has been humongous. As I neared the end - what I sensed to be enough action at Bj - I realized it actually said 'Lucky Lucky'. I knew nothing about this sidebet but since I was doing OK threw a couple of dollars at it. Later examination showed this is a much more reasonable side bet but with an RG alteration not shown at WoO.*
For the first time realized RG actually publishes many of their rules and even paytables - I found nothing needing an update. Does Maryland promote this kind of transparency? There also was a discrete sign on the wall near the cashier indicating the casino generally returned 91% to players. The link for the table games pdf, which puts Lucky Lucky last, is:
http://www.rockygapresort.com/admin/uploads/table-games-combined-032615.pdf
I hit very few naturals at my BJ session but did well with splits and doubles - it's fun to win those. I stopped slightly ahead and gave it away in tips.
I chatted the dealers up at the 3 card poker table to check out the paytables. They were surprised to find they were published, but let me write them down [I was double checking]. I didn't like what I saw for Pairs-plus, a 'meh' paytable, but warming up to them sat down to play for a bit. The game has way too low variance to play without the Pairs-plus IMO. Unfortunately you had to bet the table minimum, so I bet it only occasionally. They had a 6-card side bet too, on which you could bet a dollar, I think I bet it once. So this was my only time I ever played 3 card poker; I would have wound up even except for tip. Check out the pdf for the paytable if interested.
I was eager to play the Ultimate Texas Holdem, to pop my cherry on it - for various reasons like table minimum or availability had just never played it, and was glad a table was open. I don’t want to repeat what I was saying in the thread I mentioned in the last post here, but have to say I was puzzled yet again at all the players ignorant of even a proper simple strategy. It occurs to me that smart phones are proliferating like crazy - this is a place that should have had plenty of players with them - yet not a soul even knew the basic recommendation to never bet 3x. Everybody just seems to learn how to play from other players and the dealers. Is this ever going to change?
This is a touchy subject but it has to occur to anyone playing that it is almost inevitable that there will be a percentage of dealers with modest abilities. They must still rake it in with all the ignorant players out there, but especially with straights, there’s just mistakes. I refuse to say anything when there are other players at the table, plus it all gets whisked away as you ponder. This really gets me into a mindset of me vs the dealer; pal, you better be able to call your hand correctly. After all this is even true with a friendly poker game. Naturally, vigilance is required for your own hand too. Such slippage has to lower the HE; I saw enough to wonder if it could disappear some sessions.
In any case, it was a lot of fun. I played more UTH than anything I think, even Craps. Wound up down $55 after tips.
Overall I wound up down $140 - kind of kicking myself for tipping to much maybe. But I’ll be back.
*after going back I'm pretty sure I got the paytable wrong
Comments
Looks like you and I noticed many of the same things about the UTH tables at Rocky Gap. I would think that the high variance of UTH's base game and the relatively low HE of the Trips bet would make UTH a good game for you. Plus, well, there's the dealer quality issue.
>UTH a good game for you
yes, I like the variance - which means there is really not much reason to play the side bet. I meant to mention I was up quite a bit at one point and started to press by increasing my bet a unit. That never seems to work out and I flamed out again LOL
Comments
One casino in Reno had NO credit expenses, much less credit losses.
Their policy was bring your money with you and when its gone, its gone. We do not extend credit to anyone.
It was a good policy.
Sure those statutes that let the District Attorney be your free collections agent sure helps, but the Horseshoe rarely ever had to send collection letters. The mere thought of Benny Binion not greeting you by name when you entered the room was enough to get you to pay up. A gentlemen stood by his markers and made good on them, a la Guys and Dolls.
If you were a stand up guy, you paid your debts or you never came back to Vegas...ever.
I was playing blackjack in a Vegas casino. My friend had been increasing his bet until it got to $400, then he drew aces. He didn't have enough to cover the $400 split, so he asked for a quick marker. The floor manager didn't ask him for his ID, or for his room number, or to see his credit card; he just asked see his hand. He looked at his hand and said OK; they give him $200 (enough to fully cover his split), he won + paid the $200 back instantly, all in-stride.