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MDawg
MDawg
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September 21st, 2021 at 1:24:49 PM permalink
As the title implies, this is a discussion about how to keep comps going in casinos, beyond the typically weekend, or few day long trip. As someone who has spent now a half year in Vegas suites without paying for anything, and has done more or less the same thing going back years, I am well qualified to comment on this.

First letís discuss the two ways that casinos comp players. Obviously, play must be rated, via a Player Card, so anyone playing under the radar is not going to get any comps, let alone understand the comp system.

Comps are used to pay for a playerís stay related expenses while in a resort, expenses such as room food beverage (the three RFBs), spa & salon (massage, skincare, haircuts and styling, manicure, pedicure, etc.), events (concerts, sports, and so on) and, at the upper limit of the comp spectrum, special activities arranged for the player.

A playerís casino action also results in invitations to special events, tournaments and the receipt of gift cards, promotional (free play) chips at the tables, or free spin play at slots. Some casinos build up points or ďcasino dollarsĒ based on play that may be used to buy food and retail at either casino shops, or online.

Comps are handed out based on two different bases:

1) Actual loss. Typically 10% of an actual loss is available for a playerís comps.
a. This was up to 15% during certain periods, such as for example last year during COVID some resorts were giving 15% of actual loss, but 10% is the norm.

2) Theoretical (theo) loss. Typically 35% and up to 40% of a playerís theoretical loss is available for comps. Theo loss is calculated based on what the player is expected to lose, based on average bet times number of hours played against whatever the house edge is on the game being played.

For a weekend or other relatively short play, either of these will do to cover a guestís resort expenses. But for extended plays, really the only sustainable or even viable way to keep the comp machine going is via comps earned via theoretical loss action.

Actual loss, when considering high end casino stays in, for example, $1000. a night suites, notwithstanding food and beverage charges, just wonít sustain an extended stay. For example, to cover a 10 day long stay in a casino in a large suite, about $15,000. in comps are needed, if it is a nice stay with decent food and spa services included. To earn $15,000. in comps via a loss, $150,000. in actual loss is needed Ė and most players donít even have credit lines or cash available to gamble at that level, let alone are able to afford losing $150K in the first place.

When you get into stay lengths of longer than 10 days, it becomes even more unlikely that a player would be earning his keep via actual loss, as the required loss numbers to earn all those comps pile up even higher.

No, what really earns the comps, and keeps the comp machine going, is not loss, but action, that is, play that results in either a win, or just the average loss attributable to the house edge.

Typically, player club points and casino dollars, too, are earned at a high rate pretty much by play, via theoretical loss, not via actual loss.

For example, on a recent trip I played in the area of around seventy some (under eighty) hours at an average of $1200. a hand, at table games, and earned just about $80,000. in theoretical loss., and notwithstanding that I won over fifty grand on the trip, this theo loss against 40%, earned me over $30,000. in comps. $30K in comps is more than enough to cover a very long stay, even a month long stay, if the suite is coming in at say, $600. or even $800. a day (which remember - sometimes the rate of which the suite is calculated for purposes of comps is lower than the "rack rate" which a non-gaming hotel guest might have to pay for the suite), which leaves room for food beverage and spa too.

And this is why, one guy might sit at the table and lose five grand, and get $500. in comps, and another might sit at the table, win barely $200., and earn a theo loss which would result in higher comps. Theo loss is the way to go, for max comps.

Granted, if you want to dine on caviar daily, in a villa, even this model is not going to work as far as keeping the perpetual comp machine going, unless you step up your average bet even higher than a thousand a hand. But the perpetual comp machine model Ė always involves building up theoretical loss. Blowouts do not lead to much comps. Continued play, does.
Last edited by: MDawg on Sep 21, 2021
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
odiousgambit
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September 21st, 2021 at 2:17:54 PM permalink
for TLDR, emphasis mine, enlarged area for what we are all looking for and knew would be there
Quote: MDawg

As the title implies, this is a discussion about how to keep comps going in casinos, beyond the typically weekend, or few day long trip. As someone who has spent now a half year in Vegas suites without paying for anything, and has done more or less the same thing going back years, I am well qualified to comment on this.

First letís discuss the two ways that casinos comp players. Obviously, play must be rated, via a Player Card, so anyone playing under the radar is not going to get any comps, let alone understand the comp system.

Comps are used to pay for a playerís stay related expenses while in a resort, expenses such as room food beverage (the three RFBs), spa & salon (massage, skincare, haircuts and styling, manicure, pedicure, etc.), events (concerts, sports, and so on) and, at the upper limit of the comp spectrum, special activities arranged for the player.

A playerís casino action also results in invitations to special events, tournaments and the receipt of gift cards, promotional (free play) chips at the tables, or free spin play at slots. Some casinos build up points or ďcasino dollarsĒ based on play that may be used to buy food and retail at either casino shops, or online.

Comps are handed out based on two different bases:

1) Actual loss. Typically 10% of an actual loss is available for a playerís comps.
a. This was up to 15% during certain periods, such as for example last year during COVID some resorts were giving 15% of actual loss, but 10% is the norm.

2) Theoretical (theo) loss. Typically 35% and up to 40% of a playerís theoretical loss is available for comps. Theo loss is calculated based on what the player is expected to lose, based on average bet times number of hours played against whatever the house edge is on the game being played.

For a weekend or other relatively short play, either of these will do to cover a guestís resort expenses. But for extended plays, really the only sustainable or even viable way to keep the comp machine going is via comps earned via theoretical loss action.

Actual loss, when considering high end casino stays in, for example, $1000. a night suites, notwithstanding food and beverage charges, just wonít sustain an extended stay. For example, to cover a 10 day long stay in a casino in a large suite, about $15,000. in comps are needed, if it is a nice stay with decent food and spa services included. To earn $15,000. in comps via a loss, $150,000. in actual loss is needed Ė and most player donít even have credit lines or cash available to gamble at that level, let alone are able to afford losing $150K in the first place.

When you get into stay lengths of longer than 10 days, it becomes even more unlikely that a player would be earning his keep via actual loss, as the required loss numbers to earn all those comps pile up even higher.

No, what really earns the comps, and keeps the comp machine going, is not loss, but action, that is, play that results in either a win, or just the average loss attributable to the house edge.

Typically, player club points and casino dollars, too, are earned at a high rate pretty much by play, via theoretical loss, not via actual loss.

For example, on a recent trip I played in the area of around seventy some (under eighty) hours at an average of $1200. a hand, at table games, and earned just about $80,000. in theoretical loss., and notwithstanding that I won over fifty grand on the trip, this theo loss against 40%, earned me over $30,000. in comps,. $30K in comps is more than enough to cover a very long stay, even a month long stay, if the suite is coming in at say, $600. or even $800. a day, which leaves room for food beverage and spa too.

And this is why, one guy might sit at the table and lose five grand, and get $500. in comps, and another might sit at the table, win barely $200., and earn a theo loss which would result in higher comps. Theo loss is the way to go, for max comps.

Granted, if you want to dine on caviar daily, in a villa, even this model is not going to work as far as keeping the perpetual comp machine going, unless you step up your average bet even higher than a thousand a hand. But the perpetual comp machine model Ė always involves building up theoretical loss. Blowouts do not lead to much comps. Continued play, does.

  • link to original post

    the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: ďThanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!Ē   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
    mwalz9
    mwalz9
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    September 21st, 2021 at 2:18:05 PM permalink
    I'm not being a smart aleck, and I know based on previous interactions between us and the fact text is hard to pick up sarcasm, jokes, true feelings, it may seem as such, but this is a 100% legit sincere question...

    How do you keep the comps rolling in on the trip reports you post where you play barely 1 shoe and average bet say $1,000?

    Wouldn't the casino want you to be playing while staying?
    heatmap
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    September 21st, 2021 at 2:26:35 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    even this model is not going to work

  • link to original post



    ahhh your a model by trade this is where your bankroll and time comes from ;-)
    MDawg
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:05:14 PM permalink
    Gratuitous somewhat irrelevant picture, only because you mentioned Models in Vegas....

    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    MDawg
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:05:53 PM permalink
    From my recent session reports it may look like less hours, but the average bet is sky high lately too. Anyway, somehow it all works out.

    Over all, this is the way we do it:

    I check in to a resort and book it for say, 8 nights up front (no time for subtlety lately - I used to ask for just 4 nights or so, then extend, but these days I ask for a week or longer up front). Depending on the resort and the history of my play there, the trip might be comp'ed up front RFB, or might be room comp only with understanding that all food within reason will be comp'ed too.

    During the course of the stay, I might play exclusively at the property we are in, or maybe additionally elsewhere.

    As the 8 day mark approaches, based on my play, I have a feeling about whether it's time to just move on, or extend. If it seems like my play has gone beyond 8 days worth of RFB, I extend. If not, we move on, typically moving to whichever resort I have already played at without even staying, where comps are already set. Sometimes I have played at some other resort so much that by the time we arrive there I am already "owed" at least a week or even two of RFB up front.

    The formula also depends on how much spa the wife has racked up. I want to make sure all of that is taken care of as well.

    Additionally, as the end of the trip approaches I look at what promotions such as promo chips or such I might have coming for the next trip, and consult with the host to see if extending the stay will eat into those.

    If I have booked a loss at a session at some resort along the way, then we move on to that resort. There are occasional losing sessions. But typically almost all of my comps are earned by theoretical loss where I have won.


    After we had been here a couple months, some of my friends started saying, "You could probably just stay there forever without spending a dime." At the time, I thought, maybe, maybe not, but right now - actually - it seems that I could. Would want to, is of course a different matter.
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    darkoz
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:15:36 PM permalink
    Isn't that a formula known colloquially as "Chasing Comps"?
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    MDawg
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:18:37 PM permalink
    I renamed it, PERPETUAL COMP MACHINE.

    Catchier, no? and mine implies longevity. Chasing implies never quite catching up.
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    SOOPOO
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:20:08 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    Gratuitous somewhat irrelevant picture, only because you mentioned Models in Vegas....

  • link to original post



    Interesting picture. Is the mug filled with coffee or tea?
    MDawg
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:21:09 PM permalink
    Coffee with milk?
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    heatmap
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    MDawg
    September 21st, 2021 at 3:47:08 PM permalink
    had you not named this thread perpetual comp machine i wouldnt have clicked on it ... i just really am into perpetual motion so ... i also appreciate the advice and am enjoying this thread

    oh and that picture you posted theres another if you swipe left...
    darkoz
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    September 21st, 2021 at 4:06:20 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    I renamed it, PERPETUAL COMP MACHINE.

    Catchier, no? and mine implies longevity. Chasing implies never quite catching up.

  • link to original post



    So I guess we could rename it "A Rose by any other Name"
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    darkoz
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    September 21st, 2021 at 4:25:29 PM permalink
    Quote: heatmap

    had you not named this thread perpetual comp machine i wouldnt have clicked on it ... i just really am into perpetual motion so ... i also appreciate the advice and am enjoying this thread

    oh and that picture you posted theres another if you swipe left...

  • link to original post



    But what MDawg described is the complete opposite of a perpetual motion!

    Perpetual Motion means a machine that keeps going without the requirement to add energy source. It moves perpetually on its own power.

    MDawg is keeping his offers going by adding action (energy) to his players card. The method of reward, actual losses vs theoretical losses is just describing different forms of how action is calculated.

    As soon as MDawg takes the offers but delivers no action (energy) on his card the comps will cease or die out.

    To claim maintenance of comps by adding action is perpetual motion is like claiming your car will drive continuously as long as you add gasoline is perpetual motion.
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    heatmap
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    odiousgambitMDawg
    September 21st, 2021 at 4:47:52 PM permalink
    Quote: darkoz

    Quote: heatmap

    had you not named this thread perpetual comp machine i wouldnt have clicked on it ... i just really am into perpetual motion so ... i also appreciate the advice and am enjoying this thread

    oh and that picture you posted theres another if you swipe left...

  • link to original post



    But what MDawg described is the complete opposite of a perpetual motion!

    Perpetual Motion means a machine that keeps going without the requirement to add energy source. It moves perpetually on its own power.

    MDawg is keeping his offers going by adding action (energy) to his players card. The method of reward, actual losses vs theoretical losses is just describing different forms of how action is calculated.

    As soon as MDawg takes the offers but delivers no action (energy) on his card the comps will cease or die out.

    To claim maintenance of comps by adding action is perpetual motion is like claiming your car will drive continuously as long as you add gasoline is perpetual motion.
  • link to original post



    I should have prefaced this with Iím drunk and like the words and ideas that this thread has generated in my mind

    Logic has little to do with my enjoyment here i apologize for talking like this but I donít want to say something stupid when Iím drunk lol
    billryan
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    MDawg
    September 21st, 2021 at 4:49:49 PM permalink
    Quote: heatmap

    Quote: darkoz

    Quote: heatmap

    had you not named this thread perpetual comp machine i wouldnt have clicked on it ... i just really am into perpetual motion so ... i also appreciate the advice and am enjoying this thread

    oh and that picture you posted theres another if you swipe left...

  • link to original post



    But what MDawg described is the complete opposite of a perpetual motion!

    Perpetual Motion means a machine that keeps going without the requirement to add energy source. It moves perpetually on its own power.

    MDawg is keeping his offers going by adding action (energy) to his players card. The method of reward, actual losses vs theoretical losses is just describing different forms of how action is calculated.

    As soon as MDawg takes the offers but delivers no action (energy) on his card the comps will cease or die out.

    To claim maintenance of comps by adding action is perpetual motion is like claiming your car will drive continuously as long as you add gasoline is perpetual motion.
  • link to original post



    I should have prefaced this with Iím drunk and like the words and ideas that this thread has generated in my mind

    Logic has little to do with my enjoyment here i apologize for talking like this but I donít want to say something stupid when Iím drunk lol
  • link to original post





    " Luckily, all my best ideas come when I'm drunk" Harley Quinn
    The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
    heatmap
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    MDawg
    September 21st, 2021 at 5:17:04 PM permalink
    Damnit now Iím thinking about this darkoz and I think humans love to lie to themselves or at least attempt to rename things in order to make themselves believe that they are accomplishing those things. What I think this is, is an attempt to define a continuous process rather than a perpetual process, but rather try to motivate people to try this process by calling it perpetual.
    MDawg
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    September 21st, 2021 at 8:00:03 PM permalink
    Senzaman wazzyneeds!

    I'll back it!
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    Expectedvalue
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    MichaelBluejay
    September 21st, 2021 at 9:30:47 PM permalink
    Why are you posting this girl? Are you claiming that she is a friend of yours? Or you are just reporting pictures you found on the internet?
    AxelWolf
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    September 21st, 2021 at 10:28:19 PM permalink
    Quote: Expectedvalue

    Why are you posting this girl? Are you claiming that she is a friend of yours? Or you are just reporting pictures you found on the internet?

  • link to original post

    Please don't insult him by suggesting this could be just some picture he found on the internet. It could very well be a real sex-trafficked prostitute he found hidden under a stack of chips.
    ♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
    Mission146
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    September 22nd, 2021 at 7:00:13 AM permalink
    This picture was posted on Twitter a couple of months back, so if that's the original source, it would be beneficial if you would add a link to your post.

    How do you know her? I guess she's a model? Did you take the original picture?
    https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
    MDawg
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    September 22nd, 2021 at 9:10:08 AM permalink
    Mission, I actually have some pics of some models that I either took or where I donated the suite for the pics, friends of my wife or friends of friends, but I probably would not post those because then people could trace those back to me or to my wife. Just enjoy the gratuitous irrelevancy of this particular pic, which was posted because heatmap mentioned "models." If the model wants to be credited she will be.

    The way it works with my movements is that we stay wherever we can for as long as we can until the comps run out, then go wherever offers us a better deal as far as promo chips, concessions, etc. and also simply based on where we want to stay next. Occasionally my wife interjects with a "let's just go home" but obviously, at least so far, I have been able to stave that off.

    Quote: MDawg

    Can you see why when I get to Vegas I never want to leave?

  • link to original post


      I created this thread about how comps work - in fact casinos give only 10% of an actual loss, but 35-40% of a theoretical loss, for comps.  If I were losing, I'd have to be dumping somewhere in the neighborhood of $2.5M to have had them comp these six months in Vegas - obviously I'm not losing like that. The only realistic way to sustain a long term casino stay is via extended play without losing at all or without losing much.

    Actually I am winning, but in any case, almost all of our comps are based on theoretical loss.  Realistically, there is pretty much no way anyone could stay in Vegas an extended period unless he kept playing and avoided blow outs.  Blow outs lead to minimal comps.  Extended play leads to real comps. Which is why I view this as a perpetual comp machine 😆 since it requires no cash input, just cash availability, to keep going.
    Last edited by: MDawg on Sep 22, 2021
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    AxelWolf
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    September 22nd, 2021 at 3:19:01 PM permalink
    I don't know I this chick is someone he knows/knew or not, I just assumed it was some picture he boosted from the net, thus my prostitute JOKE(just in case someone took that seriously). If it is someone Mdawg knows in real life then I apologize for even joking, since I would probably not take kindly to someone joking about a friend of mine like that.
    ♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
    Johnzimbo
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    September 22nd, 2021 at 3:57:02 PM permalink
    Her left boob might be a Rolex....not sure about her right one though
    Expectedvalue
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    September 22nd, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM permalink
    Quote: Johnzimbo

    Her left boob might be a Rolex....not sure about her right one though

  • link to original post



    She is a public figure with more than 800k followers, probably followed by mdawg as well. Not sure any he posted this. Her name is Haily and she is an Instagram model. She also posts pictures taken at the Wynn. Kind of weird that mdawg would post it with no explanation. Guess it speaks for itself and along the lines of everything else that is posted
    MDawg
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    September 22nd, 2021 at 6:14:47 PM permalink
    The hours of play are in fact needed to keep the comps rolling but the higher the average bet, the less hours needed to achieve the same theo loss, obviously.

    Theo loss at table games is handed out pretty well at games like Blackjack, Baccarat, Craps, Roulette. Much less so at something like Pai Gow where it's hard to win or lose much and there are a lot of pushes. Slots obviously carry a higher theo loss than table games. Ask a casino owner what kind of big action players he would prefer - slots all the way.
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    AlanMendelson
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    September 22nd, 2021 at 8:22:47 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    The hours of play are in fact needed to keep the comps rolling but the higher the average bet, the less hours needed to achieve the same theo loss, obviously.



    I have to question this because of something that happened several years ago when I was a regular player at Caesars Palace.

    A frequent visitor came in for a weekend. His usual weekend visits included $25k for playing craps. Usually the $25k gave him a three day weekend of action and he'd be FULLY comped.

    But on this particular weekend he lost his usual $25k in just two hours. He did not play after that.

    Caesars required 4 hours of play each day for full comps.

    On Sunday, when he called his host to clear his bill for the weekend the Host refused to comp because of a lack of play. It didnt matter that he lost $25k in two hours.

    The player was appealing. I dont know what happened.
    AxelWolf
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    odiousgambitJohnzimbo
    September 22nd, 2021 at 8:54:12 PM permalink
    Quote: Expectedvalue

    Quote: Johnzimbo

    Her left boob might be a Rolex....not sure about her right one though

  • link to original post



    She is a public figure with more than 800k followers, probably followed by mdawg as well. Not sure any he posted this. Her name is Haily and she is an Instagram model. She also posts pictures taken at the Wynn. Kind of weird that mdawg would post it with no explanation. Guess it speaks for itself and along the lines of everything else that is posted
  • link to original post

    Stalker. 🙂
    ♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
    MDawg
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    September 22nd, 2021 at 9:37:44 PM permalink
    Quote: AlanMendelson

    I have to question this because of something that happened several years ago when I was a regular player at Caesars Palace.

    A frequent visitor came in for a weekend. His usual weekend visits included $25k for playing craps. Usually the $25k gave him a three day weekend of action and he'd be FULLY comped.

    But on this particular weekend he lost his usual $25k in just two hours. He did not play after that.

    Caesars required 4 hours of play each day for full comps.

    On Sunday, when he called his host to clear his bill for the weekend the Host refused to comp because of a lack of play. It didnt matter that he lost $25k in two hours.

    The player was appealing. I dont know what happened.

  • link to original post


    Puzzling because a $25K blowout would earn $2500. in comps, which I'd think would cover a few nights RFB. Even if he was staying in a suite that ate up say the entire 2500 and he had additional food and beverage, most hosts would cover it anyway, at least for that one trip - even if the end result was overcomping for that particular trip, in the interests of not annoying a regular player who just lost a lot of money.

    But still, I assume that if the guy put in four hours a day playing at a high average, that this would earn him more comps via the 40% of theo loss than the 10% of the blowout, which makes my point of that over time, really the only way to sustain long periods of fully comp'ed stays is via ACTION not loss. It's a little hard for people on the outskirts to understand how Vegas comps really work, but they are engineered to reward continued action more than blowout losses.
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    AxelWolf
    AxelWolf
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 2:32:38 AM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    Quote: AlanMendelson

    I have to question this because of something that happened several years ago when I was a regular player at Caesars Palace.

    A frequent visitor came in for a weekend. His usual weekend visits included $25k for playing craps. Usually the $25k gave him a three day weekend of action and he'd be FULLY comped.

    But on this particular weekend he lost his usual $25k in just two hours. He did not play after that.

    Caesars required 4 hours of play each day for full comps.

    On Sunday, when he called his host to clear his bill for the weekend the Host refused to comp because of a lack of play. It didnt matter that he lost $25k in two hours.

    The player was appealing. I dont know what happened.

  • link to original post


    Puzzling because a $25K blowout would earn $2500. in comps, which I'd think would cover a few nights RFB. Even if he was staying in a suite that ate up say the entire 2500 and he had additional food and beverage, most hosts would cover it anyway, at least for that one trip - even if the end result was overcomping for that particular trip, in the interests of not annoying a regular player who just lost a lot of money.

    But still, I assume that if the guy put in four hours a day playing at a high average, that this would earn him more comps via the 40% of theo loss than the 10% of the blowout, which makes my point of that over time, really the only way to sustain long periods of fully comp'ed stays is via ACTION not loss. It's a little hard for people on the outskirts to understand how Vegas comps really work, but they are engineered to reward continued action more than blowout losses.
  • link to original post

    So you are claiming the high-end locations on the strip will give you $2,500 in comps after losing 25k on a few hands of baccarat on the regular? Even though the casino take is only $275. Interesting indeed.
    ♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
    heatmap
    heatmap
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 4:54:41 AM permalink
    Quote: AxelWolf

    Quote: MDawg

    Quote: AlanMendelson

    I have to question this because of something that happened several years ago when I was a regular player at Caesars Palace.

    A frequent visitor came in for a weekend. His usual weekend visits included $25k for playing craps. Usually the $25k gave him a three day weekend of action and he'd be FULLY comped.

    But on this particular weekend he lost his usual $25k in just two hours. He did not play after that.

    Caesars required 4 hours of play each day for full comps.

    On Sunday, when he called his host to clear his bill for the weekend the Host refused to comp because of a lack of play. It didnt matter that he lost $25k in two hours.

    The player was appealing. I dont know what happened.

  • link to original post


    Puzzling because a $25K blowout would earn $2500. in comps, which I'd think would cover a few nights RFB. Even if he was staying in a suite that ate up say the entire 2500 and he had additional food and beverage, most hosts would cover it anyway, at least for that one trip - even if the end result was overcomping for that particular trip, in the interests of not annoying a regular player who just lost a lot of money.

    But still, I assume that if the guy put in four hours a day playing at a high average, that this would earn him more comps via the 40% of theo loss than the 10% of the blowout, which makes my point of that over time, really the only way to sustain long periods of fully comp'ed stays is via ACTION not loss. It's a little hard for people on the outskirts to understand how Vegas comps really work, but they are engineered to reward continued action more than blowout losses.
  • link to original post

    So you are claiming the high-end locations on the strip will give you $2,500 in comps after losing 25k on a few hands of baccarat on the regular? Even though the casino take is only $275. Interesting indeed.
  • link to original post



    im not necessarily on anyones side here but... how much are comps in general ACTUALLY worth compared to what the price is? You can give someone lets say a 100 dollar meal comp but they only paid like 5 dollars total for the meal ingredients and the fraction of the 100 dollars that might go to paying the chef that tiny sliver of time to cook the meal - or something like that
    AxelWolf
    AxelWolf
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 9:38:00 AM permalink
    Quote: heatmap

    Quote: AxelWolf

    Quote: MDawg

    Quote: AlanMendelson

    I have to question this because of something that happened several years ago when I was a regular player at Caesars Palace.

    A frequent visitor came in for a weekend. His usual weekend visits included $25k for playing craps. Usually the $25k gave him a three day weekend of action and he'd be FULLY comped.

    But on this particular weekend he lost his usual $25k in just two hours. He did not play after that.

    Caesars required 4 hours of play each day for full comps.

    On Sunday, when he called his host to clear his bill for the weekend the Host refused to comp because of a lack of play. It didnt matter that he lost $25k in two hours.

    The player was appealing. I dont know what happened.

  • link to original post


    Puzzling because a $25K blowout would earn $2500. in comps, which I'd think would cover a few nights RFB. Even if he was staying in a suite that ate up say the entire 2500 and he had additional food and beverage, most hosts would cover it anyway, at least for that one trip - even if the end result was overcomping for that particular trip, in the interests of not annoying a regular player who just lost a lot of money.

    But still, I assume that if the guy put in four hours a day playing at a high average, that this would earn him more comps via the 40% of theo loss than the 10% of the blowout, which makes my point of that over time, really the only way to sustain long periods of fully comp'ed stays is via ACTION not loss. It's a little hard for people on the outskirts to understand how Vegas comps really work, but they are engineered to reward continued action more than blowout losses.
  • link to original post

    So you are claiming the high-end locations on the strip will give you $2,500 in comps after losing 25k on a few hands of baccarat on the regular? Even though the casino take is only $275. Interesting indeed.
  • link to original post



    im not necessarily on anyones side here but... how much are comps in general ACTUALLY worth compared to what the price is? You can give someone lets say a 100 dollar meal comp but they only paid like 5 dollars total for the meal ingredients and the fraction of the 100 dollars that might go to paying the chef that tiny sliver of time to cook the meal - or something like that
  • link to original post

    No real side here, I know casino have and will do this at times and even better. I used to get 20% back.

    I just don't think it's that simple or some formula you can count on. Heck, I have lost 10+ quickly on games with much higher house advantages at locations and it's like pulling teeth to get a normal room and normal meal. Obviously, if you have some decent history with a location and they are fairly confident they will make up for over comping a few quick loss comps, I have no doubt they will.
    ♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
    MDawg
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 9:52:04 AM permalink
    Heatmap, are you asking what the actual value of comps are?

    Well, let's look at just the three biggest - ROOM, FOOD, BEVERAGE (RFB).

    Room:
    Yes, one might say that a room that sits empty versus one that is occupied costs the hotel only housekeeping, supplies, utility costs, etc. to maintain the room while occupied, but what about the construction cost of the hotel, the "sunk" costs to build the room and make it fit for occupation? Here, I calculated that the top resorts on the Strip have spent over a million dollars per room average cost to build the resort in the first place. Resorts World Vegas, the new kid on the block, just put in average $1.3M per room to build their hotel.

    Now, those figures aren't exact and don't figure in non-hotel room square footage such as common areas, nightclubs, restaurants, bars, spas and convention use spaces, etc., but still - any hotel has a mortgage - debt - and needs to recover that debt. So until the mortgage is paid off, the cost of a room is not solely related to its use and maintenance, but to how much it cost to build it.

    Therefore, saying that an empty room costs the hotel only housekeeping and maintenance costs, is simplistic.

    Food and Beverage:
    Similarly, how much does it cost to open a restaurant? I'd say that a Vegas restaurant might cost millions to build within a casino, and then the restaurant is either operated by the casino or leased to it. And it definitely costs money to operate a restaurant. In cases where the restaurant is not owned by the casino, the casino has to cut a check for each meal comp'ed, not simply provide it and write it off at cost.

    So, if you look at our little problem along them lines,

    you might drop the argument that the cost of a given comp'ed item is merely its "ingredients."

    Now, if you're getting at what is the value of the comp to the casino player - well, there are in fact people who stay in Vegas casino resorts who do not gamble or do not get much if any comps, and simply pay cash for everything. I see more people than you would expect bust out a credit card to pay for lavish meals at these Vegas restaurants, which implies that they are paying cash out of pocket for everything.

    Is a thousand dollar a night suite worth a thousand dollars? Is a Japanese Kobe Wagyu steak at SW or Majordomo worth $75. / ounce? Is the fish at Milo, flown in daily from the Mediterranean, worth $60. - $80. / pound? I would say that Vegas Strip hotel rooms are more expensive than non-Strip rooms, and that Vegas casino restaurants are more expensive than off-Strip non-casino restaurants, but that's not to say that there aren't Los Angeles or New York City hotel rooms or restaurants that are just as, if not much more expensive.

    I've always felt that the reason a shot of Louis XIII or an even more expensive Cognac is as much as it is in a Vegas casino bar or restaurant is so that the player being comp'ed might really feel like he is getting something for his play, but then - there are non-gamblers who come in and pay for the same, in cash, so there are people who think such extravagance is worth spending on straight up.
    Last edited by: MDawg on Sep 23, 2021
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    billryan
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 10:13:28 AM permalink
    Quote: heatmap

    Quote: AxelWolf

    Quote: MDawg

    Quote: AlanMendelson

    I have to question this because of something that happened several years ago when I was a regular player at Caesars Palace.

    A frequent visitor came in for a weekend. His usual weekend visits included $25k for playing craps. Usually the $25k gave him a three day weekend of action and he'd be FULLY comped.

    But on this particular weekend he lost his usual $25k in just two hours. He did not play after that.

    Caesars required 4 hours of play each day for full comps.

    On Sunday, when he called his host to clear his bill for the weekend the Host refused to comp because of a lack of play. It didnt matter that he lost $25k in two hours.

    The player was appealing. I dont know what happened.

  • link to original post


    Puzzling because a $25K blowout would earn $2500. in comps, which I'd think would cover a few nights RFB. Even if he was staying in a suite that ate up say the entire 2500 and he had additional food and beverage, most hosts would cover it anyway, at least for that one trip - even if the end result was overcomping for that particular trip, in the interests of not annoying a regular player who just lost a lot of money.

    But still, I assume that if the guy put in four hours a day playing at a high average, that this would earn him more comps via the 40% of theo loss than the 10% of the blowout, which makes my point of that over time, really the only way to sustain long periods of fully comp'ed stays is via ACTION not loss. It's a little hard for people on the outskirts to understand how Vegas comps really work, but they are engineered to reward continued action more than blowout losses.
  • link to original post

    So you are claiming the high-end locations on the strip will give you $2,500 in comps after losing 25k on a few hands of baccarat on the regular? Even though the casino take is only $275. Interesting indeed.
  • link to original post



    im not necessarily on anyones side here but... how much are comps in general ACTUALLY worth compared to what the price is? You can give someone lets say a 100 dollar meal comp but they only paid like 5 dollars total for the meal ingredients and the fraction of the 100 dollars that might go to paying the chef that tiny sliver of time to cook the meal - or something like that
  • link to original post



    By sitting you at a table and comping your meal, the restaurant loses the $100 cash customer that otherwise would have occupied that table. There is so much more to factor in to a cost of a meal than the ingredients and the chefs salary.
    The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
    darkoz
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 10:34:43 AM permalink
    It's threads like this that make me understand how I am so far ahead of everyone else in my AP multi-carding skills.

    You guys trying to figure out stuff I already know is hilarious.

    I suspect Axel already knows but is acting coy to avoid drawing attention while still participating.
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    MDawg
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 10:45:01 AM permalink
    You do slots - slots have a high house edge and are for big casino losers. The casino bottom line is benefitted from slots players. You're not benefitting from COMPS, what you are doing has nothing to do with comps, does it? You're working on free play which is a form of comps I suppose.

    As far as how table games comps and comps in general are calculated, what I posted in the first post - 10% of actual, 35-40% of theoretical, is the way it is. Period. But - hosts will give longtime players some leeway.

    Put it this way? What's the biggest COMP you ever got for a single trip? Mine would be - about a quarter million dollars worth, over the past six months. That's just RFB + spa, doesn't include rebates/concessions, promotional chips and special events, gifts, Visa gift cards, casino dollars with which to buy consumer goods, etc.
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    MDawg
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    RogerKintMichaelBluejay
    September 23rd, 2021 at 10:54:30 AM permalink
    What I don't like is that these threads move along nicely, and then someone, in this case DarkOz, comes along with a "I already know better than everyone else." And then the threads turn into the typical WOV peeing matches.
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    darkoz
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    odiousgambit
    September 23rd, 2021 at 11:02:15 AM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    You do slots - slots have a high house edge and are for big casino losers. The casino bottom line is benefitted from slots players. You're not benefitting from COMPS, what you are doing has nothing to do with comps, does it? You're working on free play which is a form of comps I suppose.

    As far as how table games comps and comps in general are calculated, what I posted in the first post - 10% of actual, 35-40% of theoretical, is the way it is. Period. But - hosts will give longtime players some leeway.

    Put it this way? What's the biggest COMP you ever got for a single trip? Mine would be - about a quarter million dollars worth, over the past six months. That's just RFB + spa, doesn't include rebates/concessions, promotional chips and special events, gifts, Visa gift cards, casino dollars with which to buy consumer goods, etc.

  • link to original post



    I believe most people consider freeplay not just a form of comps but the most important comps one can obtain.

    If you don't consider them comps or want to place Freeplay into a different category then we are in agreement that you get comped better.

    Freeplay is what AP's use to make profit through an advantage.

    What you seem excited about (nothing wrong from a Ploppie pov) is getting treated nice, feeling like a king.

    I get those emotions too when given hotels and RFB and show tickets although ultimately, to me, it's all carrots on a stick.

    Icing on the cake while I profit cash from freeplay.
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    darkoz
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    Johnzimbo
    September 23rd, 2021 at 11:03:54 AM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    What I don't like is that these threads move along nicely, and then someone, in this case DarkOz, comes along with a "I already know better than everyone else." And then the threads turn into the typical WOV peeing matches.

  • link to original post



    The thread about comps that moved along for two pages discussing who an internet model was in a bikini?
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    billryan
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 11:06:41 AM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    What I don't like is that these threads move along nicely, and then someone, in this case DarkOz, comes along with a "I already know better than everyone else." And then the threads turn into the typical WOV peeing matches.

  • link to original post




    You start a thread about how you know more than everyone else, which you simply don't, and then get upset that someone pulls the same nonsense.
    Get over yourself.
    The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
    AxelWolf
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 1:04:49 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    You do slots - slots have a high house edge and are for big casino losers. The casino bottom line is benefitted from slots players. You're not benefitting from COMPS, what you are doing has nothing to do with comps, does it? You're working on free play which is a form of comps I suppose.

    As far as how table games comps and comps in general are calculated, what I posted in the first post - 10% of actual, 35-40% of theoretical, is the way it is. Period. But - hosts will give longtime players some leeway.

    Put it this way? What's the biggest COMP you ever got for a single trip? Mine would be - about a quarter million dollars worth, over the past six months. That's just RFB + spa, doesn't include rebates/concessions, promotional chips and special events, gifts, Visa gift cards, casino dollars with which to buy consumer goods, etc.

  • link to original post

    I'll play and have played just about every standard game in the casino with an advantage. So I just don't play slots.

    For the most part, I wouldn't play for just comps(RFB) unless I was getting some very generous rate I felt was good value, or if I was using it to offset the cost of rooms and food while traveling.

    All games are for big casino losers unless you have an advantage that can be proven via math. If you're betting large amounts on -EV table games you'll end up losing the same amount as people playing slots, it all depends on the betting levels and speed of play.

    A slot can be +EV so it's not just for big losers.

    "The way it is"? So you're telling me that if I hit up 10 different casinos on the strip betting 1 hand of baccarat(or any table game) for 25k, if I won half my bets, and lost half my bets... I would have $12,500 minimum in Comps? And does this include craps while taking odds if you lose?
    ♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
    AxelWolf
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 1:15:08 PM permalink
    Quote: darkoz


    I believe most people consider freeplay not just a form of comps but the most important comps one can obtain.

    But something YOU wouldn't pay more than 50% for.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.
    ♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
    sabre
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 2:04:29 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    What I don't like is that these threads move along nicely, and then someone, in this case DarkOz, comes along with a "I already know better than everyone else." And then the threads turn into the typical WOV peeing matches.

  • link to original post



    At least nobody insisted the Canadiens were playing.

    And LOL@10% actual being standard.
    darkoz
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 2:37:46 PM permalink
    Quote: AxelWolf

    But something YOU wouldn't pay more than 50% for.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.

  • link to original post



    It's true, I wouldn't.

    Using my methods I can achieve obtaining Freeplay for around 20%.

    Paying 50% is paying more for something I can get for less.

    Also if I remember that conversation came out of the Pennsylvania Sands bus rebate where people sold $45 Freeplay for $40. Now that's people buying Freeplay just for a $5 advantage lol.

    (And I felt it was the correct amount there too)
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    MDawg
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 3:51:14 PM permalink
    So DarkOz plays slots and actually wins in addition to getting comps? Because that is what I do at table games, which is why I refer to it as perpetual - not needing the addition of any fuel. Oil maybe, but no fuel!
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    sabre
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 4:01:21 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    So DarkOz plays slots and actually wins in addition to getting comps? Because that is what I do at table games, which is why I refer to it as perpetual - not needing the addition of any fuel. Oil maybe, but no fuel!

  • link to original post



    He plays with an edge. You don't.
    billryan
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 4:04:10 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    So DarkOz plays slots and actually wins in addition to getting comps? Because that is what I do at table games, which is why I refer to it as perpetual - not needing the addition of any fuel. Oil maybe, but no fuel!

  • link to original post




    I don't think he claims he wins playing slots. For his particular gimmick, all you have to do is lose less than you'll get back in future free play.
    The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
    darkoz
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 4:11:25 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    So DarkOz plays slots and actually wins in addition to getting comps? Because that is what I do at table games, which is why I refer to it as perpetual - not needing the addition of any fuel. Oil maybe, but no fuel!

  • link to original post



    Not exactly.

    I lose at slots but my Freeplay adds up to much more than my losses.
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    MDawg
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 4:15:40 PM permalink
    So then your actual slots play, employs no strategy or edge that is capable of eliminating the loss? Doesn't matter so much I suppose if the end result from freeplay overcomes that, but just saying....

    Question: do you employ any strategy or edge when you play slots or are you just pushing buttons as quickly as possible? (Assuming that there is any strategy or edge that would matter with the slot machines you play, that is.)
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    darkoz
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 4:50:58 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    So then your actual slots play, employs no strategy or edge that is capable of eliminating the loss? Doesn't matter so much I suppose if the end result from freeplay overcomes that, but just saying....

    Question: do you employ any strategy or edge when you play slots or are you just pushing buttons as quickly as possible? (Assuming that there is any strategy or edge that would matter with the slot machines you play, that is.)

  • link to original post



    Yes when it's available. Not all slots have what you would term an edge. Actually it's rare but if available I play those.

    Otherwise it's all about obtaining Freeplay.

    The edge however is my knowledge of how the comps systems work.

    Technically I am not beating slots. I am beating casinos through comp hustling.

    The point is to get the cash. My methods achieve that.
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    billryan
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    September 23rd, 2021 at 5:54:00 PM permalink
    Has he ever claimed to play with an edge? I get the impression he is simply the luckiest guy in the world. He gets hunches and wins big on them.
    The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
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