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MDawg
MDawg
Joined: Sep 27, 2018
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September 21st, 2021 at 1:24:49 PM permalink
As the title implies, this is a discussion about how to keep comps going in casinos, beyond the typically weekend, or few day long trip. As someone who has spent now a half year in Vegas suites without paying for anything, and has done more or less the same thing going back years, I am well qualified to comment on this.

First letís discuss the two ways that casinos comp players. Obviously, play must be rated, via a Player Card, so anyone playing under the radar is not going to get any comps, let alone understand the comp system.

Comps are used to pay for a playerís stay related expenses while in a resort, expenses such as room food beverage (the three RFBs), spa & salon (massage, skincare, haircuts and styling, manicure, pedicure, etc.), events (concerts, sports, and so on) and, at the upper limit of the comp spectrum, special activities arranged for the player.

A playerís casino action also results in invitations to special events, tournaments and the receipt of gift cards, promotional (free play) chips at the tables, or free spin play at slots. Some casinos build up points or ďcasino dollarsĒ based on play that may be used to buy food and retail at either casino shops, or online.

Comps are handed out based on two different bases:

1) Actual loss. Typically 10% of an actual loss is available for a playerís comps.
a. This was up to 15% during certain periods, such as for example last year during COVID some resorts were giving 15% of actual loss, but 10% is the norm.

2) Theoretical (theo) loss. Typically 35% and up to 40% of a playerís theoretical loss is available for comps. Theo loss is calculated based on what the player is expected to lose, based on average bet times number of hours played against whatever the house edge is on the game being played.

For a weekend or other relatively short play, either of these will do to cover a guestís resort expenses. But for extended plays, really the only sustainable or even viable way to keep the comp machine going is via comps earned via theoretical loss action.

Actual loss, when considering high end casino stays in, for example, $1000. a night suites, notwithstanding food and beverage charges, just wonít sustain an extended stay. For example, to cover a 10 day long stay in a casino in a large suite, about $15,000. in comps are needed, if it is a nice stay with decent food and spa services included. To earn $15,000. in comps via a loss, $150,000. in actual loss is needed Ė and most players donít even have credit lines or cash available to gamble at that level, let alone are able to afford losing $150K in the first place.

When you get into stay lengths of longer than 10 days, it becomes even more unlikely that a player would be earning his keep via actual loss, as the required loss numbers to earn all those comps pile up even higher.

No, what really earns the comps, and keeps the comp machine going, is not loss, but action, that is, play that results in either a win, or just the average loss attributable to the house edge.

Typically, player club points and casino dollars, too, are earned at a high rate pretty much by play, via theoretical loss, not via actual loss.

For example, on a recent trip I played in the area of around seventy some (under eighty) hours at an average of $1200. a hand, at table games, and earned just about $80,000. in theoretical loss., and notwithstanding that I won over fifty grand on the trip, this theo loss against 40%, earned me over $30,000. in comps. $30K in comps is more than enough to cover a very long stay, even a month long stay, if the suite is coming in at say, $600. or even $800. a day (which remember - sometimes the rate of which the suite is calculated for purposes of comps is lower than the "rack rate" which a non-gaming hotel guest might have to pay for the suite), which leaves room for food beverage and spa too.

And this is why, one guy might sit at the table and lose five grand, and get $500. in comps, and another might sit at the table, win barely $200., and earn a theo loss which would result in higher comps. Theo loss is the way to go, for max comps.

Granted, if you want to dine on caviar daily, in a villa, even this model is not going to work as far as keeping the perpetual comp machine going, unless you step up your average bet even higher than a thousand a hand. But the perpetual comp machine model Ė always involves building up theoretical loss. Blowouts do not lead to much comps. Continued play, does.
Last edited by: MDawg on Sep 21, 2021
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
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September 21st, 2021 at 2:17:54 PM permalink
for TLDR, emphasis mine, enlarged area for what we are all looking for and knew would be there
Quote: MDawg

As the title implies, this is a discussion about how to keep comps going in casinos, beyond the typically weekend, or few day long trip. As someone who has spent now a half year in Vegas suites without paying for anything, and has done more or less the same thing going back years, I am well qualified to comment on this.

First letís discuss the two ways that casinos comp players. Obviously, play must be rated, via a Player Card, so anyone playing under the radar is not going to get any comps, let alone understand the comp system.

Comps are used to pay for a playerís stay related expenses while in a resort, expenses such as room food beverage (the three RFBs), spa & salon (massage, skincare, haircuts and styling, manicure, pedicure, etc.), events (concerts, sports, and so on) and, at the upper limit of the comp spectrum, special activities arranged for the player.

A playerís casino action also results in invitations to special events, tournaments and the receipt of gift cards, promotional (free play) chips at the tables, or free spin play at slots. Some casinos build up points or ďcasino dollarsĒ based on play that may be used to buy food and retail at either casino shops, or online.

Comps are handed out based on two different bases:

1) Actual loss. Typically 10% of an actual loss is available for a playerís comps.
a. This was up to 15% during certain periods, such as for example last year during COVID some resorts were giving 15% of actual loss, but 10% is the norm.

2) Theoretical (theo) loss. Typically 35% and up to 40% of a playerís theoretical loss is available for comps. Theo loss is calculated based on what the player is expected to lose, based on average bet times number of hours played against whatever the house edge is on the game being played.

For a weekend or other relatively short play, either of these will do to cover a guestís resort expenses. But for extended plays, really the only sustainable or even viable way to keep the comp machine going is via comps earned via theoretical loss action.

Actual loss, when considering high end casino stays in, for example, $1000. a night suites, notwithstanding food and beverage charges, just wonít sustain an extended stay. For example, to cover a 10 day long stay in a casino in a large suite, about $15,000. in comps are needed, if it is a nice stay with decent food and spa services included. To earn $15,000. in comps via a loss, $150,000. in actual loss is needed Ė and most player donít even have credit lines or cash available to gamble at that level, let alone are able to afford losing $150K in the first place.

When you get into stay lengths of longer than 10 days, it becomes even more unlikely that a player would be earning his keep via actual loss, as the required loss numbers to earn all those comps pile up even higher.

No, what really earns the comps, and keeps the comp machine going, is not loss, but action, that is, play that results in either a win, or just the average loss attributable to the house edge.

Typically, player club points and casino dollars, too, are earned at a high rate pretty much by play, via theoretical loss, not via actual loss.

For example, on a recent trip I played in the area of around seventy some (under eighty) hours at an average of $1200. a hand, at table games, and earned just about $80,000. in theoretical loss., and notwithstanding that I won over fifty grand on the trip, this theo loss against 40%, earned me over $30,000. in comps,. $30K in comps is more than enough to cover a very long stay, even a month long stay, if the suite is coming in at say, $600. or even $800. a day, which leaves room for food beverage and spa too.

And this is why, one guy might sit at the table and lose five grand, and get $500. in comps, and another might sit at the table, win barely $200., and earn a theo loss which would result in higher comps. Theo loss is the way to go, for max comps.

Granted, if you want to dine on caviar daily, in a villa, even this model is not going to work as far as keeping the perpetual comp machine going, unless you step up your average bet even higher than a thousand a hand. But the perpetual comp machine model Ė always involves building up theoretical loss. Blowouts do not lead to much comps. Continued play, does.

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    the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: ďThanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!Ē She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
    mwalz9
    mwalz9
    Joined: Feb 7, 2012
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    September 21st, 2021 at 2:18:05 PM permalink
    I'm not being a smart aleck, and I know based on previous interactions between us and the fact text is hard to pick up sarcasm, jokes, true feelings, it may seem as such, but this is a 100% legit sincere question...

    How do you keep the comps rolling in on the trip reports you post where you play barely 1 shoe and average bet say $1,000?

    Wouldn't the casino want you to be playing while staying?
    heatmap
    heatmap
    Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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    September 21st, 2021 at 2:26:35 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    even this model is not going to work

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    ahhh your a model by trade this is where your bankroll and time comes from ;-)
    MDawg
    MDawg
    Joined: Sep 27, 2018
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:05:14 PM permalink
    Gratuitous somewhat irrelevant picture, only because you mentioned Models in Vegas....

    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    MDawg
    MDawg
    Joined: Sep 27, 2018
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:05:53 PM permalink
    From my recent session reports it may look like less hours, but the average bet is sky high lately too. Anyway, somehow it all works out.

    Over all, this is the way we do it:

    I check in to a resort and book it for say, 8 nights up front (no time for subtlety lately - I used to ask for just 4 nights or so, then extend, but these days I ask for a week or longer up front). Depending on the resort and the history of my play there, the trip might be comp'ed up front RFB, or might be room comp only with understanding that all food within reason will be comp'ed too.

    During the course of the stay, I might play exclusively at the property we are in, or maybe additionally elsewhere.

    As the 8 day mark approaches, based on my play, I have a feeling about whether it's time to just move on, or extend. If it seems like my play has gone beyond 8 days worth of RFB, I extend. If not, we move on, typically moving to whichever resort I have already played at without even staying, where comps are already set. Sometimes I have played at some other resort so much that by the time we arrive there I am already "owed" at least a week or even two of RFB up front.

    The formula also depends on how much spa the wife has racked up. I want to make sure all of that is taken care of as well.

    Additionally, as the end of the trip approaches I look at what promotions such as promo chips or such I might have coming for the next trip, and consult with the host to see if extending the stay will eat into those.

    If I have booked a loss at a session at some resort along the way, then we move on to that resort. There are occasional losing sessions. But typically almost all of my comps are earned by theoretical loss where I have won.


    After we had been here a couple months, some of my friends started saying, "You could probably just stay there forever without spending a dime." At the time, I thought, maybe, maybe not, but right now - actually - it seems that I could. Would want to, is of course a different matter.
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    darkoz
    darkoz
    Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:15:36 PM permalink
    Isn't that a formula known colloquially as "Chasing Comps"?
    For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
    MDawg
    MDawg
    Joined: Sep 27, 2018
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:18:37 PM permalink
    I renamed it, PERPETUAL COMP MACHINE.

    Catchier, no? and mine implies longevity. Chasing implies never quite catching up.
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
    SOOPOO
    SOOPOO
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:20:08 PM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    Gratuitous somewhat irrelevant picture, only because you mentioned Models in Vegas....

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    Interesting picture. Is the mug filled with coffee or tea?
    MDawg
    MDawg
    Joined: Sep 27, 2018
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    September 21st, 2021 at 3:21:09 PM permalink
    Coffee with milk?
    I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/

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