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buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 7th, 2011 at 8:53:26 PM permalink
I know it is slightly off topic, but Paco or anybody know the title of that song from Stagecoach. I remember John Carradine's dying words " Tell Judge Greenfield that his son ......" But always wondered if that song had a hidden message for the passengers.
pacomartin
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September 7th, 2011 at 9:01:42 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

To go off topic again, last night I went to a function at my daughter's high school. Her French teacher said that 60% of English was mispronounced French. She gave some examples of words there were spelled the same, or almost the same, in French and English, but were pronounced very differently.

Any comment? I thought when the Romans invaded Britain and France, Latin became mixed with the previously spoken language (whose terms I don't know). Couldn't we say that modern French and English came along at about the same time and fairly independently? I do know that some German words got absorbed into English, like haus became house, but did the same thing happen with French?



I would say that she is stretching the argument quite a lot. But I am sure that she could give you a lot of examples. If she knows her language she could give examples for hours.

Certainly the language of the Romans became mixed with the local languages when they invaded France, Spain and present day Romania. That is why we call the present day versions Romance languages because they are all variants of the "language of the Romans" (i.e. Vulgar Latin). There was a mix with the languages in Britain as well, the Brythonic or Brittonic languages like Welsh were heavily influenced by the language of the Romans over the five centuries that they ruled. But in Britain the invasion of the Angles and Saxons who brought their own language (Old English) completely changed the dominant language.

The Norman conquest of 1066 brought the Norman language to England and began radically changing the language. But the Normans were originally Vikings, so their language was part Scandinavian. The Normans brought Scandinavian words to French as well.

But Modern French dates back to around late 16th century, about the time we start dating early modern English. So it is probably more accurate to say that a good percentage of our two languages come from the same source. Normally we say that English words come from Old French which would be almost as difficult for a modern Frenchman to understand as we have with Middle English .

In addition when early modern English was being formed, there was a great deal of effort in teaching Latin to young boys. A lot of latin words were deliberately anglicized and artificially forced into the language. In much the same manner when the scientific and humanistic thinking became more important in later centuries, the Greek language was mined to create new English words to meet the demands of science.

English has a great many cognates with Spanish because Latin had such a direct influence on English. Since Spanish is much closer to Vulgar Latin then French, we get a strong correlation with Spanish (and Italian).

TRIVIA If languages derived from "Vulgar Latin" or the "The language of the Romans" became known as "Romance Languages", then why do we refer to stories about love and sex as "romantic"?
Nareed
Nareed
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September 7th, 2011 at 9:04:47 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I know that caminar means to walk, but thought andar means that too. When I was in Panama I forgot the word for "walk" and the doorman at my hotel said it was andar. Granted, andar is one of those words like echar and llevar that seem to mean a host of different English words, and has always given me grief.



It's the same difficulty in all languages. In English the verb "to walk" can be transitive and intransitive depending on how it's used. Anyway, andar can mean a host of things. In the colloquial it means "to date," as in "José anda con María" which means José is dating María. If you say "no anda el coche" you'd be saying "the car doesn't run."

To move slowly taking steps is caminar. To move taking steps is andar. The latter doesn't specify speed.


Quote:

I might add that the first definition for andar at spanishdict.com is to walk.



I've seen that site. it's ok for a quick and dirty translation. But for serious study you need a different kind of dictionary. Son't realy on it too much.
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buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 7th, 2011 at 9:12:10 PM permalink
Can someone help me out here ? Still dying to know what this song is from STAGECOACH

Later that night, Yakima sings a Spanish song [an exile's lament for the native land and a love song] outside to the Mexican stagepost hands:

Al pensar en ti
Tierra en que naci
Que nostalgia siente mi corazon
En mi soledad
Siento alivio y consuelo en mi dolor.

Las notas tristes de esta cancion
Me traen recuerdos de aquel amor
Al pensar en el
Vuelve a renacer
La alegria en mi triste corazon.

She abruptly interrupts herself in the middle of the song, telling the four vaqueros (loosely translated from Spanish): "OK boys, get goin'!" They ride off with all the spare horses:
Nareed
Nareed
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September 7th, 2011 at 9:15:20 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Can someone help me out here ? Still dying to know what this song is from STAGECOACH



Have you tried googling the lyrics?
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buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 7th, 2011 at 9:16:20 PM permalink
Not yet good idea
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 7th, 2011 at 9:16:23 PM permalink
Forget that. And I thought Latin was hard Still remember amo amas amat and something about Gall being divided into three parts
pacomartin
pacomartin
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September 8th, 2011 at 10:30:31 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Yakima sings a Spanish song [an exile's lament for the native land and a love song] outside to the Mexican stagepost hands:
Al pensar en ti
Tierra en que naci
Que nostalgia siente mi corazon
En mi soledad
Siento alivio y consuelo en mi dolor.

Las notas tristes de esta cancion
Me traen recuerdos de aquel amor
Al pensar en el
Vuelve a renacer
La alegria en mi triste corazon.



Elvira Rios (Yakima) sings "En mi soledad" in film Stagecoach (1939)

Try making a list of the key words with literal translations and English cognates (words based on same root Latin word). It can take considerable effort to come up with lyrics that keep the spirit of the song.


Spanish English cognate Translation
pensar pensive think
Tierra terra land
naci natal birth
nostalgia nostalgia nostalgia
corazon coronary heart
soledad solitary loneliness
Siento sensitive I feel
alivio alleve relief
consuelo console consolation
doler ?? pain
notas notes notes
tristes ?? sad
cancion cantus song
traen ?? bring
recuerdos recording memories
amor amarous love
Vuelve ?? returns
renacer re-birth revive
alegría ?? joy
triste ?? sad
corazon. coronary heart.


A word for word translation is usually less than lyrical.

When thinking of it,
The land of my birth
I feel nostalgia in my heart
In my solitude
I feel relief and consolation in my pain.


The sad notes of this song
Bring memories of this love
In thinking this
Is re-born
The gladness in my sad heart.


I don't think there is a hidden message in the song. It's a pretty straightforward lyrics about being homesick. I imagine the character is meant to be another clash of good & bad characterization. She is a supposedly ignorant and possibly dangerous woman married to a simple man. But she can sing like an opera singer.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 8th, 2011 at 10:51:09 AM permalink
Thanks Paco I always wondered about the intent of that song. I now know is was just another great factor in one of my favorite
movies. THANKS AGAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nareed
Nareed
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September 9th, 2011 at 7:35:35 AM permalink
In honor of the Wizard's blog post on punctuality, here's the word for today:

9 de Septeimbre de 2011
Palabra del día: Plantado, plantada

Simply stated this means "planted" as in "the seedlings have been planted." Coloquially, in Mexico, it means being stood up for an appointment.

Ejemplo:

No llegó. me dejó plantada = He dind't show up. He stood me up.

It's sued also in reference to people who don't stadn you up on purpose, but who are so late they might as well have not shown up. A friend of mine had a friend, whom I never met, who'd often do this. He started to call his friend "El Jardinero," meaning "The Gardener," because he always left everyone "plantado."

The word derives from "planta" meaning, surprisingly enough "plant." Related words include the verb "plantar" meaning "to plant" or "to sow." BUt, as usual, there are other definitsion. A full time employee will often be called "empleado de planta," for example. This last applies more to domestic workers, but not exclusively so.

A power plant, or a bottling plant, are also called plantas in Spanish. A minor curiosity is that a power plant, that si to say a massive instalation that burns fuel to make electricity, is called "planta de luz." For some reason in Mexico "luz," meaning light, is synonimous with "power" when talking about electricity. In mexico you don't say "there's a power outage," or "people were left without power after the hurricane," but rather "se fué la luz" (the light left, literally) or "la gente se quedó sin luz después del huracán."

I think this comes from the fact that the first widespread use of electricity in homes involved lights. You couldn't see electricity, but you could see the light it produced. Also nine times out of ten, you notice a power outage because the lights go out.

But I digress. :)

PS I'm not very consistent in following the rules on when vowels have an accent on them (like "ó"). Still, sometimes I do recall suing them. Question is whether other users can see them or do they get wome weird ASCII characters isntead. Samples: á é í ó ú
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