Spanish word of the day
Quote: WizardHowever, why is it estar and not ser? Ser is more permanent in nature, right, and once the library is made of bricks, it is going to remain that way.
Again I can just tell you "because that's how it is."
I can add that "la biblioteca es hecha..." would translate back to English as "the library be made of..." And that would be wrong.
Paco, the expression "un ojo de la cara" applies to something that cost too much or was too expensive. I'm not aware of an English expression using the term eye or face (and where else would your eyes be?), but the equivalent would be "It cost me an arm and a leg."
Quote: NareedQuote: WizardHowever, why is it estar and not ser? Ser is more permanent in nature, right, and once the library is made of bricks, it is going to remain that way.
Again I can just tell you "because that's how it is."
I can add that "la biblioteca es hecha..." would translate back to English as "the library be made of..." And that would be wrong.
Perhaps I can try to explain the grammar, but I can't do it quickly.
The two following sentences are both correct, even though they seem to be expressing the same idea.
La biblioteca es de madera.
La biblioteca está hecho de ladrillos.
The first sentence says "the library is wood" which is a essential quality so you use the verb "ser".
The second sentence looks like it is expressing the same idea, except using bricks instead of wood. But you are using the "past participle" of the verb "hacer". Normally a "past participle" is made by for an -er verb is made by dropping the -er and adding -ido, (comer becomes comido) but "hacer" is an irregular verb, and it's past participle is "hecho".
Review of grammar in English
A present participle in English is the -ing form of the verb. We use them for progressive tense and to make verbs into nouns.
A past participle has several different uses, but one is to use the verb as an adjective.
For instance in the following sentences the former verbs "open" and "close" become the adjectives "opened" and "closed".
The door is closed.
The doors are closed.
The restaurant is open.
The restaurants are open.
In Spanish you always use the verb "estar" with past participle (with no exceptions). Since the word is no longer a verb, and is now an adjective you use "estar" because you are describing a "state of being".
La puerta está cerrada.
Las puertas están cerradas.
El restaurante está abierto.
Los restaurantes están abiertos.
The problem is further complicated because in English a regular verb uses the same conjugation for "simple past" and "past participle". If you are trying to find the "past participle" of a verb, just complete the following sentence in your mind: "I have ......". For most verbs you will use the same form as the simple past:
For example the verb "to make"
I make bread (present is "make")
I made bread (past is "made")
I have made bread (past participle is "made")
But the most commonly used verbs in English are irregular and you use a different form for "past participle" and "simple past". For example "to do", becomes "I do","I did", and "I have done". The past participle of "to do" is "done".
Another use of the "past participle" is to form the "passive voice" by coupling the verb "be" and the past participle. For example "You need to be done with that project". Nareed was talking about this use. Since "hecho" is a past participle, it would be used in the passive voice. In Spanish the passive voice always uses a conjugation of "ser". So when Nareed was translating the Wizard's sentence he came up with "be made".
I've said this statement several times in the past (which I got from the above book). Although "ser" and "estar" are frequently taught to English speakers as "permanent" and "temporary" version of the verb "to be", that is a shortcut in your thought process and is frequently misleading. The subtitle of the book is "key to mastering the language".
Quote: NareedOk, I'm done breaking up with a bank. We lasted a long time, btu he was never more than just adequate. Oh, well.
Paco, the expression "un ojo de la cara" applies to something that cost too much or was too expensive. I'm not aware of an English expression using the term eye or face (and where else would your eyes be?), but the equivalent would be "It cost me an arm and a leg."
Well, I meant that the two idioms are the same in that they both say that in order to acquire something it will cost you a body part. If in Spanish you must give up your eyes, and in English you give up an arm and a leg, the choice of body parts is a minor semantic difference.
English speakers sometimes say it will cost you "a pound of flesh". It's a slightly different idiomatic expression because it comes from Shakespeare's play "Merchent of Venice". It is a little more menacing than "an arm and a leg" because in the play when the merchant is unable to pay back the money, Shylock goes to court and demands payment in full. The arguments made in the court case include the well known line - "The quality of mercy is not strained".
My native Spanish speaking friend who was speaking English for over 40 years. Her English was flawless, but she still had trouble with idiomatic expressions. I remember that she always hated "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". She could never remember it because she thought it was stupid. She also had trouble with Grimm's fairy tale characters since she had never heard them. If she heard "Rapunzel" or "Rumpelstiltskin" she would forget who they are.
You seem to have good grasp of idiomatic English. I sometimes wonder if there are equivalent idiomatic expressions in Spanish
(1) "get your foot in the door"
(2) "a baker’s dozen"
(3) "along for the ride"
(4) "the early bird gets the worm"
(5) "looks like a duck"
(6) "dressed to the nines"
I do remember us discussing idioms earlier in this thread.
Quote: pacomartinEnglish speakers sometimes say it will cost you "a pound of flesh". It's a slightly different idiomatic expression because it comes from Shakespeare's play "Merchent of Venice".
Ah, the gratuitious anti-semitism of the time.
I never understood what Shylock is supposed to get out of killing the borrower. Certainly not his money back.
Quote:She also had trouble with Grimm's fairy tale characters since she had never heard them. If she heard "Rapunzel" or "Rumpelstiltskin" she would forget who they are.
Odd. Granted some of those tales aren't common here, didn't she ever watch "Rocky and Bulwinkle"? The fractured fairy tales were rife with pretty much every fairy tale ever, inlcuding Rapunzel and Rumpelstilskin. Others like Snow White, Little Red Riding Hood, Cinderella, Goldilocks, the Three Pigs, etc were very well known.
Quote:You seem to have good grasp of idiomatic English. I sometimes wonder if there are equivalent idiomatic expressions in Spanish
I've an excelent grasp of idiomatic English. I learned the langauge through popular culture,a fter all, and idiom is a staple of TV shows of all kinds (so much so it becomes cliche rather quickly). I don't have a good grasp of idiomatic Spanish, though. Much of it is vulgar. Still, lets see:
Quote:(1) "get your foot in the door"
None
Quote:(2) "a baker’s dozen"
None. But it's common in street markets to be given an item or two extra when buying, for example, fruit or vegetables. They'll weigh, say, a kilo of lemons, and then add two more. That's called "pilón." The seller might say "Un kilo y el pilón." The idea is to show they're not cheating you. I gather that's the intent of a baker's dozen as well.
Quote:(3) "along for the ride"
Nomás fuiste (fue/fueron/fuí) a pasear.
Quote:(4) "the early bird gets the worm"
(5) "looks like a duck"
(6) "dressed to the nines"
None I can think of.
I can add one:
A bird in hand is worth two in the bush = más vale pájaro en mano que cientos volando.
Quote: NareedAh, the gratuitious anti-semitism of the time. I never understood what Shylock is supposed to get out of killing the borrower. Certainly not his money back.
Well compared to the burning alive of 900 Jews in the 14th century Strasbourg as an attempt to ward off the plague, the vitriol of Martin Luthur, and the cannonization of Simon Trent, I would say Shakespeare's anti semitism was fairly mild for the era. I know that the play has been used to bolster anti-semitism for centuries, but the eloquence of the speech given to Shylock must mean that Shakespeare had some sense of their humanity.
Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means,
warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer
as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?
If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us,
do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
I don't know if there is any anti-semitism in Latin America. According to Wikipedia the only Latin American country with a decent size Sephardic population is Argentina.
Quote: pacomartinI don't know if there is any anti-semitism in Latin America. According to Wikipedia the only Latin American country with a decent size Sephardic population is Argentina.
There was a major bombing of a Jewish temple in Argentina not too long ago. It may have been the largest act of terrorism in Latin America.
The Cangrejo section of Panama City is both the center of the night life as well the Jewish part of the city.
Fecha: 11 de Noviembre, 2011
Estado: Tamaulipas
Palabra: Palpitar
Today's state is Tamaulipas. The SWD of the day comes from a line from the state anthem:
La sangre palpita en el pecho mío, al recuerdo glorioso de sus héroes y su honor. = The blood beats in my chest, to the glorious memory of your heroes and your honor.
Palpita comes from the verb palpitar, which means to beat. I'm sure this is where we get "heart palpitations."
Intermission: I was writing this while watching the Raiders vs. Chargers game. I had Oakland money line (yeah!)
Ejemplo time.
Mi corazón palpita más rápido cada vez que veo Ginger nadar en la laguna. = My heart beats faster each time I see Ginger swim in the lagoon.
Quote: pacomartinI would say Shakespeare's anti semitism was fairly mild for the era.
Yes, that's why I called it gratuitous. The damage, though, comes from placing it in a play that has endured this long.
Quote:I don't know if there is any anti-semitism in Latin America.
Some. Not the violent kind you see in Europe, and not much in the way of hate crimes, but there is some. There aren't many Jews int he region to begin with.
The bombing in Argentina the Wizard mentioned was carried out by Iran. But give Chavez and his ilk some time, and you'll see some changes in that respect.
Quote: WizardPalpita comes from the verb palpitar, which means to beat. I'm sure this is where we get "heart palpitations."
Yes, it is the same word. The literal meaning is more to "throb" or to "flutter".
As usual the Latin/Spanish word is more specific than the Anglo Saxon word.
beat could mean
(1) "strike cover to rouse or drive game" (c.1400) is source of beat around the bush (1570s),
(2) "inflict blows on" is closely related to original meaning of beating bushes
(3) "to overcome in a contest" is from 1610s
(4) "dead-beat" (originally "tired-out") preserves the old past participle.
(5) the metaphoric sense of which has shifted from "make preliminary motions" to "avoid, evade."
(6) "beat it" first recorded 1906 (though "action of feet upon the ground" was a sense of O.E. betan).
(7) "beat generation"
(8) "beat the charges", etc., attested from c.1920 in underworld slang.
(9) "beat off" is recorded by 1960s.
(10) "beating of the heart", about the year 1200, from notion of it striking against the breast.
Although you can find examples in Spanish, it seems to me that most of the Old English words have acquired a plethora of meanings, that are only loosely related to one another. You can see how writing a maintenance manual in English for an airplane could be dangerous.
================
Wizard
As a side note, I hope you ask your tutor my previous questions about the use of the subjunctive mood for the verb "ser". I am curious if she follows Nareed's translation, or on this point if there is a difference between Argentine and Mexican Spanish.
Keep in mind that many writers are very hostile to the subjunctive mood in English. They read common sentences like "If I were you ..." where you use a plural version of the verb "to be" is very confusing. As we discussed in earlier threads in the British versus American English, the seeming mismatch of I (single person) and were (plural person) is only grammatically correct because you are in the subjunctive mood. Many writers would look to see it dead.
I would not be surprised if there is some disagreement among Spanish writers/speakers about it's use.
Quote: WizardToday's state is Tamaulipas.
As a cultural note, the people of Nuevo León often say Tamaulipas stole their border with the US :)
Quote:Mi corazón palpita más rápido cada vez que veo Ginger nadar en la laguna. = My heart beats faster each time I see Ginger swim in the lagoon.
"... que veo A Ginger...."
Quote: NareedAs a cultural note, the people of Nuevo León often say Tamaulipas stole their border with the US :)
Most people are aware of the Republic of Texas which existed for almost a decade.
- Independence from Mexico March 2, 1836
- Annexation by the United States of America December 29, 1845
There was also an even shorter lived Republic of the Rio Grande which existed for less than a year in 1840 with it's capital at Laredo. The territory was part of the former states of Coahuila, Nuevo León, and Tamaulipas.
The Laredo newspaper has a 7th flag for the traditional Six Flags over Texas + flag of the Republic of the Rio Grande .
As a reminder the six flags are:
1) Spain (1519 to 1685) & (1690-1821)
2) France (1685-1690) - Fort Saint Louis was a French colony
2) Mexico (1821-1836) [battle of the Alamo from 23 Feb to 6 March 1836]
4) Republic of Texas (1836-1845)
5) United States (1845-1861) & (1865-present)
6) Confederacy (1861-1865)
Although France is one of the flags over Texas, it is unrelated to the better known and much later French intervention in Mexico of 8 December 1861 - 21 June 1867. France took advantage of the civil war in the USA, thinking that they would not enforce the pledge of the American government not to permit any European powers to return in force to the Western hemisphere. Even though this was 50 years after Mexico's declaration of independence, there was still powerful people in Mexico who wanted a monarchy restored in their country.
Quote: pacomartinAs a side note, I hope you ask your tutor my previous questions about the use of the subjunctive mood for the verb "ser". I am curious if she follows Nareed's translation, or on this point if there is a difference between Argentine and Mexican Spanish.
Can you remind me specifically what the question was?
Quote: pacomartinYes, it is the same word. The literal meaning is more to "throb" or to "flutter".
I won't get into all that. "Palpitar" does connote rapid beating of the heart, rather than the normal rythm. The word "palpitaciones" means an irregular heartbeat.
The regular, common heartbeat is called "latido," the infinitive is "latir." Forms of it also mean "hunch." I've mentioned this in connection with the lotto known as "Melate" (propeprly it should be "me late"). Example: "Me late que la bola va a caer en seis = I've a hunch the ball will fall on six."
Quote: Nareed"Me late que la bola va a caer en seis = I've a hunch the ball will fall on six."
What is the difference between a bola y pelota? Is bola Spanglish for ball?
Quote: WizardWhat is the difference between a bola y pelota? Is bola Spanglish for ball?
"Bola" is "ball." "Pelota" is a kind of ball used in sports. "Balón" is a ball filled with air which can be refilled at pleasure.
So, for example, when saying "The QB passed the ball," you can say "el coreback (that's my transliteration of how the word "quarterback" is pronounced here) pasó la bola/el balón/la pelota" indsitinctly. Buit if you're talking about roulette, it will be 2la bola" or "la bolita" every time. No one would call a roulette ball "pelota," and much less "balón."
Bola may also mean a bunch of things, or a small mob of people.
Quote: pacomartin(4) "the early bird gets the worm"
How about the oppsite?
I'm not sure of the wording, but the thing never made sense to me: No por mucho madrugar se despierta más tamprano."
"Madrugar" means waking up or being up very ealy in the day, say around 5 am. I'm not sure it's a real verb, but it's used that way. "Madrugada," which is a noun, does mean the very early part of the day.
Rather than attempt a translation, I'll explain the meaning: getting up early doesn't guarantee you'll be able to get somewhere on time, or accomplish your goals for the day, or gettign any kind of advantage. So it means the opposite of the English idiom.
When an English idiom gives me trouble is because I'm unfamilair with it, and/or I can't discern it's meaning readily. For instance, I know what the expression "the apple of my eye" means. It refers to someone you are very fond of, someone close to you whom you hold in high esteem. But I've no idea why it means that.
Quote: Nareed"Balón" is a ball filled with ....
I read to that point in the sentence and had this anticipation that it would end, "... water and used by children to throw at each other in mock battles." Just couldn't look at "balón" and not read "balloon".
Edit in response to post above: Old quip -- "Ya may be the apple of your mother's eye, but ya ain't appealin' to me."
Quote: DocI read to that point in the sentence and had this anticipation that it would end, "... water and used by children to throw at each other in mock battles." Just couldn't look at "balón" and not read "balloon".
The word "balloon" gave me a lot of trouble. Clearly it's related to "balón" and I suspect it comes via French.
Anyway, the word for "balloon" is "globo." A water balloon is a "globo de agua."
And that "de" will mess with the Wizard, too. Some native Spanish speakers will argue it should be "globo con agua." Likewise if you want a glass of milk you should ask for a "vaso con leche." The reasoning is that saying "vaso de leche," means a glass made of milk, while "vaso con leche" means a glass filled with milk. The correct way is to say "vaso de leche," but the explanation as to why it's correct is a bit complicated.
Quote: WizardCan you remind me specifically what the question was?
It was a two part question.
Quote: pacomartinPART I
Which one of these phrases is correct?
(1) Busco un libro que sea interesante.
(2) Busco un libro que es interesante.
My verb book says to use sea, but at the same time the google translate used es.
I was curious if it was a somewhat archaic grammatical rule.
The reason given in the book is "In an adjectival clause if the antecedent is something or someone that is indefinite, negative, vague or nonexistent, you should use the subjunctive mood ... 'un libro' is indefinite ...
Notice, however, that the subjunctive is not used in English." Clearly Nareed thought it should be es, and the grammar rule is archaic.
PART II
Quoting the lyrics from a very famous Argentine protest song from the 1970's (in the subjunctive mood).
It confuses me what is the best translation:
Solo le pido a Dios
Que el dolor no me sea indiferente
"I only ask of God
He not let me be indifferent to pain" (1)
That I may not be indifferent to pain" (2)
That the pain is not indifferent to me" (3)
I would go with #2, but I see it translated as #1 or #3 in some cases (like the link above).
I think this may be a good question for your Argentine tutor. The song is 33 years old, but in all probability she has heard it.
It would probably impress her if you can sing two or three lines from the song. There are multiple versions on youtube. Mercedes Soza was a national icon in Argentina. She died a few years ago. Her cover was probably the most famous.
León Gieco - The writer of the song
Quote: pacomartinPART I
Which one of these phrases is correct?
(1) Busco un libro que sea interesante.
(2) Busco un libro que es interesante.
She said (1) is right. The subjunctive tense is used to express doubt. In this case while you're looking for an interesting book, you may not find one. She added that buscar is a verb that is generally connected to the subjunctive tense.
Regarding it being archaic, my tutor never touched on it but she was very clear that (1) was proper Spanish.
Quote: pacomartinPART II
Quoting the lyrics from a very famous Argentine protest song from the 1970's (in the subjunctive mood).
It confuses me what is the best translation:
Solo le pido a Dios
Que el dolor no me sea indiferente
"I only ask of God
He not let me be indifferent to pain" (1)
That I may not be indifferent to pain" (2)
That the pain is not indifferent to me" (3)
I would go with #2, but I see it translated as #1 or #3 in some cases (like the link above).
She said number 2 is right. I may not know much about Spanish, but (1) and (3) sound like very awkward English to me. Probably that is how my Spanish sentences sound.
I've been to China five times and always laugh at the English translations of Chinese signs. For example those yellow signs, that say "slippery when wet" or "piso mojado," they stand up on wet floors in China say, in English, "Caution Tripping Drunken Walking." I have a picture of one, if you don't believe me. I asked me wife what it said in Chinese and she said it said the same thing, but in Chinese it is perfectly normal. When translated to English word for word it just comes off so badly it is a source of humor. Jay Leno sometimes pokes fun of other such translations from Chinese to English. I'm not one to speak about the fine points, or even the rough points, of Chinese, but as I was saying in another post, just the general way of communicating is a lot different. I think I can say they don't have a lot of prepositions and short connecting words. The pretty much string together the most pertinent points of what you want to say, and the words that hold things together, like in English or Spanish, are simply assumed.
In my opinion, electronic translators are still pretty bad at sentence translation, and should only be used as a last resort. Most of my effort to learn Spanish comes from reading side by side books in English and Spanish. The original was in English. Time after time I see the Spanish translation not trying to translate every word literally, but instead to convey the general gist of the story, but to something that comes off well in Spanish. For example, where the English version said "tooth fairy" the Spanish said "ratoncito."
Quote: WizardShe said (1) is right. The subjunctive tense is used to express doubt. In this case while you're looking for an interesting book, you may not find one. She added that buscar is a verb that is generally connected to the subjunctive tense.
Regarding it being archaic, my tutor never touched on it but she was very clear that (1) was proper Spanish.
Nareed said (2) was right. But that only confirms the fact that I was told in Mexico that Mexican Spanish had relaxed some of the formalities of peninsular Spanish. For instance, in Mexico, I was told they have almost completely abandoned the future tense conjugation. Instead they use ir + a + verbo en infinitivo as a way to express the future tense. English does not use subjunctive mood for the same sentence. We say "I am looking for an interesting book". We do not say "I may be looking for an interesting book".
In Old English, when the language had many inflection, the indicative and subjunctive were quite distinct like present day Spanish.
A hallmark of the subjunctive in present day English is that tenses are often mixed – one says “I wish she were here". The verb were looks like plural past tense in the indicative mood, instead it is singular present in the subjunctive mood.
Quote: Wizard"I only ask of God
He not let me be indifferent to pain" (1)
That I may not be indifferent to pain" (2)
That the pain is not indifferent to me" (3)
She said number 2 is right. I may not know much about Spanish, but (1) and (3) sound like very awkward English to me. Probably that is how my Spanish sentences sound.
I agree with you, but I see so many translations of this song on the internet using other versions, that I thought I would ask.
Quote: WizardI've been to China five times and always laugh at the English translations of Chinese signs. For example those yellow signs, that say "slippery when wet" or "piso mojado," they stand up on wet floors in China say, in English, "Caution Tripping Drunken Walking." I have a picture of one, if you don't believe me. I asked me wife what it said in Chinese and she said it said the same thing, but in Chinese it is perfectly normal. When translated to English word for word it just comes off so badly it is a source of humor.
One particularly poetic signage that we saw in Spain was "No cambio de sentido" or "No change of heart" instead of "No U-turn".
Quote: WizardIn my opinion, electronic translators are still pretty bad at sentence translation, and should only be used as a last resort. Most of my effort to learn Spanish comes from reading side by side books in English and Spanish. The original was in English. Time after time I see the Spanish translation not trying to translate every word literally, but instead to convey the general gist of the story, but to something that comes off well in Spanish. For example, where the English version said "tooth fairy" the Spanish said "ratoncito."
My friend commercialized an electronic translator that was developed for DOD use. It doesn't even try to recognize single words at all, but it's lowest atomic level is "the phrase". The device is most effective if you are on guard duty in Afghanistan, and a single misunderstood command could result in an accidental shooting. Medical personnel have found it effective as well. But that is with languages where you don't recognize a single word.
A while back I gave a rather extensive explanation of the grammatical reasons why you should use "estar" with "hecho". But if you had put your sentence into "google translation" you would have at least discovered that your sentence was incorrect. When I was in school in Oaxaca, in class we would use different translators just to compare results.
There are some electronic translators that refer to themselves as "gisters" instead of "translators". They acknowledge that they are only providing the "gist" of the document.
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gist - 18th century from Anglo-French legalese phrases, e.g. cest action gist "this action lies," meaning "this case is sustainable by law," from O.Fr. gist en "it consists in, it lies in". Extended sense of "essence" first recorded 1823.
Estado: Tlaxcala
Palabra: Cuna
Today's state is Tlaxcala. Please don't ask me how to pronounce it. I don't think I've ever seen T and L consecutively before, in English or Spanish. Never mind that I can never remember how to pronounce an x, except in Mexico. Besides being a mouthful to pronounce, Tlaxcala is the smallest state in Mexico in terms of area.
The motto of Tlaxcala is "Cuna de la nacion." The word cuna is our SWD, which can mean cot, cradle, cradle, or birthplace.
Ejemplo time.
Capitan, no tengas miedo de la araña en su cuna, lo es mi mascota. = Skipper, don't be afraid of the spider on your cot, it is my pet.
Quote: WizardThe motto of Tlaxcala is "Cuna de la nacion."
It's an interesting motto because it is certainly not the birthplace of the Mexican nation. Guanajuato is the cradle of the independence movement. Tlaxcala had a deep and enduring bond to Spain.
Quote: WizardToday's state is Tlaxcala. Please don't ask me how to pronounce it. I don't think I've ever seen T and L consecutively before, in English or Spanish.
It's not Spanish. It's a pre-hispanic language. Possibly, I'm guessing here, Nahuatl (see?) You'll find several names with the "tl," like Popocatepetl and Iztaccihuatl, which are two of the volcanoes near Mexico City.
Quote:The motto of Tlaxcala is "Cuna de la nacion." The word cuna is our SWD, which can mean cot, cradle, cradle, or birthplace.
My dictionary says means cradle, day care center (casa de cuna), homeland, place of origin and a kind of bridge (wow!). Mostly it's used to mean "cradle." The word for "cot" is "catre."
Ejemplo time.
Capitan, no tengas miedo de la araña en su cuna, lo es mi mascota. = Skipper, don't be afraid of the spider on your cot, it is my pet.
"Capitán, no tengas miedo de la araña en TU catre (sorry!), es mi mascota."
You're having a very hard time with "lo." In this case, remember there's no pronoun for animals or inanimate objects in Spanish. If you must use a pronoun for the spider, you'd use "ella." Saying "...ella es mi mascota" would be correct, though the pronoun is superfluous.
Quote: WizardMaybe it is my slow Internet speed, but that map is taking ages to load.
I put a much smaller map in it's place. The cable speed here is 15 Mbs so I never noticed problems.
Before 1520 Tlaxcala remained independent of the Aztec empire, but was almost surrounded by them. They became allies of Cortez in the conquest, and as a result they were granted a high level of autonomy for the 300 years of the Spanish rule. The members of the Tlaxcalan kingdom did not fight in the war of independence and were only fully added to the new nation decades later.
So they are the cradle of nation, only because they aided the European conquest.
The Mexican stories of how they became a nation are much more complex than those of the USA. This painting of Cortez and his native wife (slave?) Malinche is very significant. It is a union of two people which produced a child (on the floor between them). The child, Martín, is sometimes called the "first mestizo" (or mixed person). But he is also face down in the dirt because he lived his life far below in status to his half brother who Cortez had with a Spanish woman.
Quote: WizardI don't think I've ever seen T and L consecutively before, in English or ....
Should I feel "guiltless" or "gutless" for pointing out examples that I already know are not quite what you meant?
:-)
Quote: DocShould I feel "guiltless" or "gutless" for pointing out examples that I already know are not quite what you meant?
:-)
There are hundreds of English words that contain "tl": "tly" - peartly; "tless" - restlessness, "tle" - bottled, "tler" - startler, "tline" - coastline, etc. Most of them break syllables between the 't' and 'l' with a few exceptions like "battle".
I think what the wizard meant was that no English words start with "tl".
Quote: pacomartinI think what the wizard meant was that no English words start with "tl".
Maybe. When you get to letter combinations, all sorts of things are overlooked.
For instance, I hurried to say the name "Tlaxcala" isn't Spanish. But here are words in Spanish with "tl," well, at least one I could think of: Tlapalería (it means paint and paint-tool store; meaning house paint rather than art or industrial paints.)
I read an anecdote concerning a quiz game with a question like "name the only country whose name in English contains the letters "ATE," in that order." The answer is "GuATEmala." Very nice, but what about "The United StATEs of America"?
Quote: pacomartinI think what the wizard meant was that no English words start with "tl".
Of course. That's why from the many possibilities I chose two particular examples and my closing clause. (A lame attempt at humor gimped into the abyss.)
Quote: NareedBut here are words in Spanish with "tl," well, at least one I could think of: Tlapalería (it means paint and paint-tool store; meaning house paint rather than art or industrial paints.)
En náhuatl tlapalli significa "raíz de color". So your initial guess was correct. The "tl" combination is from the indigenous languages.
Quote: Wikipedia
Nahuatl is a group of related languages and dialects of the Nahuan (traditionally called "Aztecan") branch of the Uto-Aztecan language family. Collectively they are spoken by an estimated 1.5 million Nahua people, most of whom live in Central Mexico. All Nahuan languages are indigenous to Mesoamerica. Nahuatl has been spoken in Central Mexico since at least the 7th century AD.
Many words from Nahuatl have been borrowed into Spanish and thence have diffused into hundreds of other languages. Most of these loanwords denote things indigenous to central Mexico which the Spanish heard mentioned for the first time by their Nahuatl names.
English words of Nahuatl origin include "avocado", "chayote", "chili", "chocolate", "coyote", "axolotl" and "tomato".
Lila Downs has recorded songs in Mixtec, Zapotec, Maya, Nahuatl and P'urhépecha. CANTO NAHUATL.
Quote: Doc(A lame attempt at humor gimped into the abyss.)
Doc,
I am not sure if you know that a gimp is now a sexual fetishist who likes to be dominated and who dresses in a leather or rubber body suit with mask, zips, and chains. I am not sure how the word definition made the transformation from "lame", but I suspect that it was in France. The word "gimp" is related to "guimple" which is an Old French word meaning "headdress" or "veil".
I would retire this word from your vocabulary.
Quote: pacomartinI am not sure if you know that a gimp is now a sexual fetishist
Just about everything can be a fetish, you know :)
Quote: NareedJust about everything can be a fetish, you know :)
They did an episode of Sex and the City which implied that women were OK with male shoe fetishists since so many women were irrationally obsessed with shoes.
Personally, it reminds me of a Chihuahua dog, which seems to get excited about everything.
Quote: pacomartinDoc,
I am not sure if you know that a gimp is now a sexual fetishist who likes to be dominated and who dresses in a leather or rubber body suit with mask, zips, and chains. I am not sure how the word definition made the transformation from "lame", but I suspect that it was in France. The word "gimp" is related to "guimple" which is an Old French word meaning "headdress" or "veil".
I would retire this word from your vocabulary.
I know there is such usage, and I recall the pawn shop owner and his friend Zed in Pulp Fiction referring to their plaything as "the gimp". However, I don't usually let my language usage be dominated by whatever the current fad in slang may be, particularly if it is a word that works well with other meanings. I doubt that you do either. Perhaps I would think in terms of that other meaning, if this forum were focused on bondage and domination, but then I wouldn't likely be posting here at all. I was thinking more of the definition I find in a standard dictionary:
Quote:gimp informal often offensive
noun
a physically handicapped or lame person.
• a limp.
• a feeble or contemptible person.
verb [ intrans. ]
limp; hobble : she gimped around thereafter on an artificial leg.
ORIGIN 1920s (originally U.S.): of unknown origin.
My brother's girlfriend has one natural leg and a collection of artificial ones. She knows and uses a wide range of quips on the topic. She has several T shirts with comments about how "gimps" do it better. While there certainly is sexual content implied, it is not the one that you have suggested. I think "gimp" still works quite well in the context of "lame" or "limp", particularly if not used in an offensive manner.
Quote: DocHowever, I don't usually let my language usage be dominated by whatever the current fad in slang may be, particularly if it is a word that works well with other meanings. I doubt that you do either.
Well, if a word starts making some associations with people that I didn't intend, I am wary. If a word has some strange association that only a small group of people know, then it's not an issue. But "gimp" is gradually making it's way into the mainstream. I was particularly struck by how many times it was used in talking about the new television series, "American Horror Story".
I'm old enough that words like Eskimo, Indian, and Oriental do not some offensive to me, but merely descriptive. All these words have been used for hundreds of years. However, I don't use them because there are a lot of people who take offense.
You can't say the word appeasement because the meaning was permanently altered 60 years ago. The word "gypped" has connotations. You won't find one person in ten who can correctly define "chauvanistic".
We are rapidly losing our common culture. In 1823 when the following poem was published, probably everyone recognized the reference to Hamlet in the second line. Today almost nobody does.
1 'Twas the night before Christmas, when all thro' the house,
2 Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse;
That is interesting that English picked up the word Avocado and Spanish didn't. Don't they use palta instead?
Quote: WizardThat is interesting that English picked up the word Avocado and Spanish didn't. Don't they use palta instead?
What's interesting is how Spanish can vary between countries. I'd never heard the word "palta" before. In México, that vile fruit is called "aguacate."
Quote: NareedQuote: WizardThat is interesting that English picked up the word Avocado and Spanish didn't. Don't they use palta instead?
What's interesting is how Spanish can vary between countries. I'd never heard the word "palta" before. In México, that vile fruit is called "aguacate."
The word 'avocado' comes from the Spanish aguacate which in turn comes from the Nahuatl word ahuácatl (testicle, a reference to the shape of the fruit)
In Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Peru, and Uruguay, the avocado is known by its Quechua name, palta. Quechuan is a "language" family spoken by as many as 8-10 million people. In contrast Mexico has 68 recognized indigenous languages spoken by roughly 5 million people.
There are four languages in Mexico with more than 1/4 million speakers:
(1) Mayan (4 major variants)
(2) Nahuatl (more than a million)
(3) Mixtec (mostly in Oaxaca)
(4) Zapotec (mostly in Oaxaca)
There is nothing remotely equivalent in the United States. Only Hawaiian is an official state language, and there are less than 2000 native speakers, and another 25K who have learned it as a secondary language.
Quote: pacomartinThe word 'avocado' comes from the Spanish aguacate [..]
I don't quite see how you get from one to the other. Except, perhaps, if by the 15th Century Spaniards still used the Latin V as an U.
That is an amazing painting. Says so much on so many levels. I really think Orozco, Rivera, Kahlo et al. are some of the best ever.Quote: pacomartin
Quote: teddysThat is an amazing painting. Says so much on so many levels. I really think Orozco, Rivera, Kahlo et al. are some of the best ever.
Now that Volaris airlines is partnering with Southwest Airlines it is easy and cheap to get to Guadalajara from Vegas, Chicago Midway, and 7 California airports. You will see the best Orozco murals.
It's a fun city.
You have to go to Mexico City to see Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo's work.
Yes, but see my other thread about Mexico.Quote: pacomartinNow that Volaris airlines is partnering with Southwest Airlines it is easy and cheap to get to Guadalajara from Vegas, Chicago Midway, and 7 California airports. You will see the best Orozco murals.
It's a fun city.
You have to go to Mexico City to see Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo's work.
One of the best Diego Rivera murals is right here in Detroit, at the Institute of Art. Absolutely incredible -- a must see. This is just a portion:
Estado: Veracruz
Palabra: caldo
Today's state is Veracruz. It has a large coastline along the Gulf of Mexico. A popular dish in Veracruz is caldo de mariscos. Wikipedia translated that to "seafood soup." Mariscos is a word we Gringos see a lot on restaurant cartas (menus) and signs. However, I never never understood if it is supposed to mean seafood in general, or specifically shellfish. Caldo is a new word to me. Spanishdict.com translates is as "broth," but Wikipedia translates it as "soup." So I hope the advanced readers can help shed some light on the common usage of both marisco y caldo.
Ejemplo time.
Si nos portamos, Maryann va a hacer el caldo de mariscos para la cena. = If we behave ourselves, Marryann will make seafood soup for dinner.
Quote: WizardHowever, I never never understood if it is supposed to mean seafood in general, or specifically shellfish.
Mariscos refers to anything living underwater that is neither fish nor some kind of seaweed or other underwater vegetation: shrimp, squid, octopus, oysters, clams, etc. It's all inedible anyway :P
Quote:Caldo is a new word to me. Spanishdict.com translates is as "broth," but Wikipedia translates it as "soup." So I hope the advanced readers can help shed some light on the common usage of both marisco y caldo.
Caldo = Broth
Sopa = Soup
A "caldo" qualifies as soup, though. but not all soups qualify as "caldo."
Of course usage is another matter. A bowl of chicken broth with a half breast, rice and chickpeas is called "caldo de pollo." A soup made of lima beans, some bacon and onion is called "caldo de habas." The same soup made with lentils instead of lima beans, is called "sopa de lentejas." Any milk or cream based soups, though, like cream of mushroom, clam chowder or tomato soup, are never called "caldo." They're either "crema" meaning cream, or "sopa."
I've no idea where that leaves gazpacho...
Quote:Si nos portamos, Maryann va a hacer el caldo de mariscos para la cena. = If we behave ourselves, Marryann will make seafood soup for dinner.
Drop the "el" in "el caldo." Maryann won't be making "the seafood soup."
But the first part of the sentence is problematic. In English saying "if we behave..." implies you'll be well behaved. In Spanish there is no such implication. Think of it as saying "if our behavior is," without qualifying it. Further, it depends on your views about mariscos. So I would say "Si nos portamos mal..." While I think you meant "Si nos portamos bien..."
BTW all this reminds me of a rather good, very old, SF novel by Cliff Simak called "Waystation." There's an alien named Ulysses constantly referring to coffee as "the coffee." What's not to like about a kindly, coffee-addict alien? :)
Quote: WizardFecha: 14 de Noviembre, 2011
Palabra: Cuna
Si nos portamos, Maryann va a hacer el caldo de mariscos para la cena. = If we behave ourselves, Marryann will make seafood soup for dinner.
Wiz, you forgot to update the palabra.
Note that you used va a hacer instead of the future tense of hacer, which would be hará
Google translates as Maryann hará sopa de mariscos para la cena.
I am willing to bet that your tutor would use the "tiempo futuro" since I think that Argentines prefer the more formal syntax. I was told that Mexican mostly use the more informal future tense "conjugation of ir + 'a' + infinitive ".
We don't need to go to my tutor on hara, I admit I was wrong.
Quote: WizardWe don't need to go to my tutor on hara, I admit I was wrong.
You were not wrong, you simply used a more casual way of indicating the future. Grammatically it is called futuro perifrástico.
In english periphrasis is taken literally from Greek and Latin and means "circumlocution," or to "speak in a roundabout way," from peri- "round about" + phrazein "to express."
It is very common in Mexico to not use the future tense, but to express the future the way you did. In Spain they are much more apt to use the future tense. I assume the same is true in Argentina, but I am not certain.
The English future tense is also periphrastic: it is normally formed with an auxiliary verb (shall or will) followed by the base form of the main verb. So Mexican Spanish in this sense follows the English paradigm.
Quote: WizardThat is interesting about it not being implied that portarse means to behave well. It certainly is the case in English that "behave" implies "behave well."
ON that, I realized something later on. If you'd said "Si nos comportamos, Maryann..." you'd have had it right. "Comportar" also means "to behave" but when used by itself, as when an annoyed mother lovingly yells to her misbehaving child "¡Compórtate!" it means "behave well!" Sorry about the omission
Quote:We don't need to go to my tutor on hara, I admit I was wrong.
Not wrong at all. You might have said "...Maryann nos va a hacer..." but the way you used it was just fine.
BTW, is it Maryann or Mary Anne?
