Spanish word of the day
Quote: WizardNuevo Leon is an arid state bordering Texas. Supongo que se llamada de la ciudad León in España.
Literal: I suppose it is called of the city León in Spain."
Correct: Supongo que se llama así por la ciudad de León en España.
Quote:For the word of the day I had to look at the map and found a city called Arroyo, which means steam.
For all your trouble using the language, you do always know the meaning of the SWD. Until today. "Arroyo" means "stReam." You must have misread the dictionary entry. The word for "steam" is "vapor."
Quote:El Professor debe haciendo un experimento ciencia, porque hay arroyo saliendo de la laguna. = The Professor must be doing a science experiment, because there is steam coming out of the lagoon.
Again, the literal: The professor must doing experiment science, because there is stream coming out of the lagoon."
So: "El profesor debe ESTAR haciendo un experimento cienTÍFICO, porque hay vapor saliendo de la laguna."
In this sense, I think that the Flamingo Wash would be considered an arroyo.
Quote: NareedFor all your trouble using the language, you do always know the meaning of the SWD. Until today. "Arroyo" means "stReam." You must have misread the dictionary entry. The word for "steam" is "vapor."
Oops. I dropped the R in stream somehow.
Como siempre, gracías por sus correcciónes.
Quote: DocFrom my limited time living in New Mexico, I am familiar with "arroyo" referring to a place where there would be a stream if there were actually any water! Most (all?) of the arroyos I saw in southern New Mexico were dry almost all of the time but were subject to flash flooding when there was rain in the surrounding mountains.
In this sense, I think that the Flamingo Wash would be considered an arroyo.
Arroyo means stream. If it's dry, it's an "arroyo seco." Some are seasonal, some are not. In a place where the streams are dry along part of the year, the usage could change to what you noted.
Quote: NareedArroyo means stream. If it's dry, it's an "arroyo seco."
Does seco come from sacar? Like all the water got extracted from the stream?
The only continuously-flowing streams I saw in the Las Cruces, NM area were the Rio Grande and a number of irrigation ditches from the river that flowed most of the time. There were quite a few, usually-dry arroyos through the desert, some of which were quite wide as they passed through town. Some places there were bridges over the ravines, while other places the streets had major dips that everyone knew to stay away from if there was rain in the area.Quote: NareedIn a place where the streams are dry along part of the year, the usage could change to what you noted.
From the main highway (US70) crossing White Sands Missile Range, there is a small road less than four miles long into the main post area. When I arrived there in 1969, that short road had seven major dips where it crossed arroyos (secos). If you were driving it at night and did not remember just where the arroyos were, you could get quite a surprise and go airborne. If there was rain during the day, traffic into and out of the post could be blocked.
In 1970, a new Commanding General arrived on the post and had bridges built over the dips. All of the old timers claimed that at the next major storm the bridges would be washed out. I left before there was another big one. Today, GoogleMaps shows bridges on that road, but the entire road looks as if it has been improved quite a bit.
¿Las palabras "Rio", "grande", y la discusión sobre el uso de "arroyo" permitir que este puesto en la nueva normativa sin necesidad de añadir una frase simbólica como ésta? Just checking.
Quote: WizardDoes seco come from sacar? Like all the water got extracted from the stream?
Seco es un adjetivo, Secar es un verbo
mi mano se seca.
me seco las manos.
Seco no está relacionado con sacar
Sacar es de la lengua gótica
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If you have forgotten your history of barbarian invasions, the Visigoths occupied Spain for a few centuries before the Muslim conquest. Their capital city was Toledo, very near present day Madrid.
Toledo's most famous son in the present day was El Greco who painted the thousand year old city.
Quote: Gothic Language: Wikipedia
As a Germanic language, Gothic is a part of the Indo-European language family. It is the earliest Germanic language that is attested in any sizable texts, but lacks any modern descendants. The oldest documents in Gothic date back to the 4th century. The language was in decline by the mid-6th century, due, in part, to the military defeat of the Goths at the hands of the Franks, the elimination of the Goths in Italy, and geographic isolation (in Spain the Gothic language lost its last and probably already declining function as a church language when the Visigoths converted to Catholicism in 589). The language survived as a domestic language in the Iberian peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal) as late as the 8th century, and Frankish author Walafrid Strabo wrote that it was still spoken in the lower Danube area and in isolated mountain regions in Crimea in the early 9th century (see Crimean Gothic). Gothic-seeming terms found in later (post-9th century) manuscripts may not belong to the same language.
The existence of such early attested corpora makes it a language of considerable interest in comparative linguistics.
Estado: ' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaxaca] Oaxaca
Palabra: Barro
Today's state is Oaxaca. Please don't ask me to pronounce it. Geographically, it lays along the west coast in southern Mexico. The Wikipedia page says it has some very nice unspoiled beaches.
Oaxaca is famous for a kind of pottery called barro negro = black mud. I thought the word for mud was lodo, but that would just be too facil if there were just one word for anything. Even most gringos know that negro = black, so the SWD is the barro = mud.
Ejemplo time.
El Capitán cayó en el barro una otra vez mientras persiguiendo a Gilligan. = The Skipper fell in the mud again while chasing Gilligan.
Quote: WizardFecha: 3 de Noviembre, 2011
Estado: ' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaxaca] Oaxaca
Palabra: Barro
I think clay is a more accurate translation. Part of the oaxaqueño potter's skill is he can make the pots without a wheel.
No había un montón de autopistas en México antes de 1998, cuando Carlos Salinas de Gortari se convirtió en presidente. La autopista último construido durante su presidencia de 6 años fue a Oaxaca.
Oaxaca pasó de un largo viaje en tren de 14 horas a un cómodo 6 horas en autobus a la ciudad de México. Cambió radicalmente la ciudad, haciéndola accesible a los viajes de fin de semana.
Oaxaca también se convirtió en una ciudad Patrimonio de la Humanidad en 1987, trasladado de siglos de aislamiento a un sitio de turismo
Oaxaca is known for it's fried crickets (chapulines), it's cheese, the oldest municipality in the Western hemisphere, and for it's varied indigenous culture. The beaches are more popular with American surfers and European visitors than with middle America.
Quote: pacomartinOaxaca is known for it's fried crickets (chapulines)
I think you're scaring away Nareed with that picture of canastas leno de insectos.
I must agree that is an impressive pot for not using a potter's wheel, but why not use one?
Quote: WizardI think you're scaring away Nareed with that picture of canastas leno de insectos. I must agree that is an impressive pot for not using a potter's wheel, but why not use one?
I don't know how many people use a potter's wheel today. It takes so much skill to not use one, that I suspect people who have that skill only do it as a display for the tourists. Most of the old skills in the world have become performance art today. While flamenco was once an impromptu dance session, I don't think it is ever done that way today.
Chapulines are well known throughout Mexico, although I imagine Nareed does not eat them.
From Wikipedia: A total of 1417 species of insects have been recorded as being eaten by over 3000 ethnic groups. These include 235 species of butterflies and moths, 344 species of beetles, 313 species of ants, bees and wasps as well as 239 species of grasshoppers, crickets and cockroaches, amongst others. Other commonly eaten insects are termites, cicadas and dragonflies. Insects are known to be eaten in 80% of the world's nations.
Quote: WizardEl Capitán cayó en el barro una otra vez mientras persiguiendo a Gilligan. = The Skipper fell in the mud again while chasing Gilligan.
"El Capitán SE cayó en el lodo otra vez mientras perseguía..." or "cuando perseguía..." or "cuando estaba persiguiendo a ..."
Paco's right, BTW. Barro is clay.
What he dind't say is that Oaxaca is also one of the poorest states in the hemisphere, if not the poorest, and one of the most backward, too. Depending almost entirely on agriculture and tourism.
And can we stop talking about eating vermin? I also don't eat rats or garden snails, even if they are considered edible elsewhere.
Barro is clay -- got it. Spanishdict.com lists the primary meaning as "mud," which is where I got that from.
On the topic of pottery, I took a class in ceramics in high school. A decent potter, which I wasn't, can crank out easy things like cups, bowls, and vases at a rate of 20-30 an hour. Where is takes more skill is if the sides are very thin, lots of curves, a narrow opening.
When I went to the Grand Canyon I bought a very impressive clay pot from one of the many stands selling Indian crafts. There are lots of them as you approach through Indian land on the east side.
Quote: WizardBueno, no mas hablando de comiendo...
That's really wrong, but I can't come up with a good alternative. Spanish just isn't spoken that way.
let's see...
"No hablemos más de comer," would be good. Also, perhaps, "No se hable más de comer insectos."
I'm not even sure "No more talking about eating" would be good English. My feeling is to say "No more talk about eating."
Quote: NareedQuote: WizardBueno, no mas hablando de comiendo...
That's really wrong, but I can't come up with a good alternative. Spanish just isn't spoken that way.
let's see...
"No hablemos más de comer," would be good. Also, perhaps, "No se hable más de comer insectos."
I'm not even sure "No more talking about eating" would be good English. My feeling is to say "No more talk about eating."
I hope I can at least engender some sympathy. First I have to formulate what to say in English and then do my best to translate it. I know there is a level way out there where I'm able to compose sentences directly in Spanish, but I'm not there yet.
Also, I see nothing wrong with "No more talking about eating" in English.
Yo quiero Taco Bell.
Quote: WizardI hope I can at least engender some sympathy. First I have to formulate what to say in English and then do my best to translate it. I know there is a level way out there where I'm able to compose sentences directly in Spanish, but I'm not there yet.
I've been there, in reverse. Unfortunately i can't recall what, if anything, I did about it. I suspect it came naturally as I immersed myself in English, aprticualrly reading.
Perhaps rather than translate, what you should do is tell yourself "Ok, I want to say 'the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog' in Spanish. Instead of tranlating this, how do I say 'jumped over' and all the rest, in what order," etc. Until you come up with "La veloz zorra café brinco sobr el perro flojo."
Quote:Also, I see nothing wrong with "No more talking about eating" in English.
It just sounds wrong to me.
Quote:Yo quiero Taco Bell.
Yo nunca hé ido a Taco Bell.
By coincidence, just yesterday my wife and I were discussing our 2007 Panama Canal cruise that took us to several Mexican ports. She asked what that area was that we never could pronounce, so I looked it up. My unreliable reference suggested is is something like "wahaka", but I was hoping the native speakers would answer that part of the topic.Quote: WizardToday's state is Oaxaca. Please don't ask me to pronounce it.
My geography is not very good, but I think that Santa Cruz Huatulco is in Oaxaca, and that it is the only port at which our ship stopped in that state. We only ventured as far as the local market next to the dock, and it was stocked mostly with local handicrafts, reinforcing Nareed's comment. I took a photo of the outside of the market, but it isn't worth posting, so I will post the photo of the carved, folding, wooden hand fan that my wife purchased in the market. She has carried it most places since then and really has enjoyed it (more than most souvenir trinkets) -- aire acondicionado portátil en una bolsa, or something like that.Quote: NareedPaco's right, BTW. Barro is clay.
What he dind't say is that Oaxaca is also one of the poorest states in the hemisphere, if not the poorest, and one of the most backward, too. Depending almost entirely on agriculture and tourism.
Upon my return from that cruise, I was deferred from donating blood for the next year, because the Red Cross considers Santa Cruz Huatulco to be in a malaria-risk area. Of course, Holland America never mentioned such a thing to us.
Quote: DocBy coincidence, just yesterday my wife and I were discussing our 2007 Panama Canal cruise that took us to several Mexican ports. She asked what that area was that we never could pronounce, so I looked it up. My unreliable reference suggested is is something like "wahaka", but I was hoping the native speakers would answer that part of the topic.
Close enough.
What you have to remember is that in Spanish vowels always have the same sound. And the letter "X" is the same as in English, except in Mexico. IN that case it can sound like a Spanish J, SH, Z or X. The OA combination sounds kind of like WA. Another dificult one is the OE combination, which many speakers pronounce as WU.
Quote:My geography is not very good, but I think that Santa Cruz Huatulco is in Oaxaca, and that it is the only port at which our ship stopped in that state.
I think it's Santa Maria de Huatulco. In any case, it's more commonly known just as Huatulco. I know very little about it.
Quote:We only ventured as far as the local market next to the dock, and it was stocked mostly with local handicrafts, reinforcing Nareed's comment.
Not really. Any market for tourists will be chok-full of "local" handicrafts. They serve the same purposes souvenirs do elsewhere, like for instance Hoover Dam.
Quote:Upon my return from that cruise, I was deferred from donating blood for the next year, because the Red Cross considers Santa Cruz Huatulco to be in a malaria-risk area. Of course, Holland America never mentioned such a thing to us.
Really? It's supposed to be an upscale, expensive kind of place. Until around three years ago plane tickets were devilishly expensive, too. As I recall, a flight to Vegas was cheaper.
Quote: NareedClose enough.
What you have to remember is that in Spanish vowels always have the same sound. And the letter "X" is the same as in English, except in Mexico. IN that case it can sound like a Spanish J, SH, Z or X. The OA combination sounds kind of like WA. Another dificult one is the OE combination, which many speakers pronounce as WU.
I think it's Santa Maria de Huatulco. In any case, it's more commonly known just as Huatulco. I know very little about it.
Not really. Any market for tourists will be chok-full of "local" handicrafts. They serve the same purposes souvenirs do elsewhere, like for instance Hoover Dam.
Really? It's supposed to be an upscale, expensive kind of place. Until around three years ago plane tickets were devilishly expensive, too. As I recall, a flight to Vegas was cheaper.
Generally, the Human Development index of Guerrero (acapulco), Oaxaca (Huatulco, Oaxaca City), the Chiapas (bordering Guatemala) are the lowest in the country of Mexico. The DF (Distrito Federal) is more like Germany, and Chiapas is more like Albania.
Oaxaca has virtually no industry, an autocratic government and depends on tourism. Some of the indigenous population in the mountains does not live much different than they did before the Conquest in 1520. A significant portion of the population does not speak Spanish.
Huatulco is the general name for the bays in the area which were developed for tourism. The best known story is of a miraculous ancient cross that was discovered there, before the Spaniards arrived. This miracle cross does not exist in modern times. Hence one of the towns in Huatulco is known as Santa Cruz de Huatulco. Another town is Santa Maria de Huatulco, and yet another is Crucerito. Oaxaca has more municipalilties than the rest of the country as befitting it's heritage.
Huatulco is upscale, but the air service is awful. As Nareed says, it consisted of three jets from one company from Mexico City, and they were expensive. Much of the tourism is package tours from Europe. When I was there they were picking up some new service from Manchester England. Many of the groups I saw were from Mexico City.
Puerto Escondido is another beach town, which is more traditional, and caters to younger surfer crowd, mostly European. The waves are fierce.
Los caminos en Oaxaca puede ser primitivo. Tomé un autobús nocturno de la ciudad a la playa, que estaba a sólo 85 millas por aire.
Al igual que los Apalaches en el 1950 muchas personas se resisten a las nuevas carreteras, ya que temen que sólo hará más fácil para extraer los recursos naturales de la zona.
The prevalant images of rioting drive away much of American tourism. The locals tend to think of the visitors from Mexico city as haughty, and the vistors from Mexico city tend to regard it as a backward place.
Quote: WizardAlso, I see nothing wrong with "No more talking about eating" in English.
The problem is that in your sentence "eating" is called a gerund, because you are using a verb as a noun. In English you use the "-ing" form of a verb for this case. In Spanish you must use the "infinitive" form "to eat".
In your sentence the verb "talking" is a verb used in the "progressive" sense of action that is progressing.
In English we can use the infinitive form of a verb when we are using it as a noun, but it tends to be more elevated, or more historical aphorisms. "To err is human, to forgive is divine" is a good example."To err" and "to forgive" are both infinitives used as a noun.
If we are being more casual we go to the -ing form : "Eating is how I cope with stress". In Spanish you would say "Comer es cómo lidiar con el estrés". You would not use Comiendo.
This general rule applies to all Latin languages.
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Shakespeare would use one form or the other depending on the rhythm. He chose "To be or not to be" over "Being or not being" and he chose "Parting is such sweet sorrow" over "To part is such sweet sorrow".
Quote: DocUpon my return from that cruise, I was deferred from donating blood for the next year, because the Red Cross considers Santa Cruz Huatulco to be in a malaria-risk area. Of course, Holland America never mentioned such a thing to us.
I think that when I went to make my next blood donation, the Red Cross had the entire state of Oaxaca included as a malaria-risk area. Perhaps the climate, the "barro", and "los mosquitos" (finally, an easy translation!), keep the risks high once there is an infection. Maybe the local economy has also limited the infection treatment and insect eradication efforts. The Red Cross deferred me from donating for a year, but I have been back on the schedule for a good while now -- just made my 94th donation last week!Quote: NareedReally? It's supposed to be an upscale, expensive kind of place.
Fecha: 3 de Noviembre, 2011
Estado: Puebla
Palabras: Cemita
Today's state is Puebla. My housekeeper Lupe is from Puebla, and mentions it once in a while. A while ago she tried to describe it to me, but all I can recall was mention of cascadas (waterfalls). Months later I mentioned to my tutor plans of visiting Argentina and she recommended I visit las Cataratas de Iguazu (Iguazu Falls). I questioned the word cataratas, saying that I thought the word for waterfall was cascada, as Lupe told me. To make a long story short, it would seem that a small waterfall is a cascada, and a big one is a catarata. Correct me if I'm wrong, which I usually am when it comes to Spanish.
Sin embargo, cascada is not the SWD. It is cemita, which is a kind of bread, what we would call in English a "roll." While Cemita sandwiches can be found in other parts of Mexico, I believe they originated from Puebla, and are still popular there. They can be filled with a host of different things, but all share the same Cemita pan (bread).
Ejemplo time.
No hay nada mejor que un bocadillo cemita para almuerzo. = There is nothing better than a cemita sandwhich for lunch.
As usual, my level of confidence in choosing para over por (or vise versa) is very low. I'd happily take +110 odds I'm wrong.
Quote: WizardI questioned the word cataratas, saying that I thought the word for waterfall was cascada, as Lupe told me. To make a long story short, it would seem that a small waterfall is a cascada, and a big one is a catarata. Correct me if I'm wrong, which I usually am when it comes to Spanish.
Generally, it seems that you are correct that cataratas (literally cateracts in English) is for large waterfalls, but as the above Wikipedia quote says, the terms are vague and there is no formal distinction and may depend on traditional use. Other terms like salto and torrente can be used.
Quote: WikipediaEn español se emplean varios términos para designar este accidente, como caída, salto, cascada, catarata, torrente, rápido o chorro, sin que estén claramente definidos ni científicamente determinados. Se emplea el término cascada para designar la caída desde cierta altura de un río u otra corriente por un brusco desnivel del cauce y se habla de catarata cuando se trata de una cascada muy grande o caudalosa.
The photos are of streams that break the general rule, where a large fall with a single plume of water in Arizona is a "cascada", and a small frozen creek is called a "catarata".
Cascada Havasu, Arizona, Estados Unidos, un ejemplo de cascada de tipo zambullida.
Catarata helada al sureste de Nueva York
Quote: Wizard
Fecha: 3 de Noviembre, 2011
Estado: Puebla
Palabras: Cemita
No hay nada mejor que un bocadillo cemita para almuerzo. = There is nothing better than a cemita sandwhich for lunch.
As usual, my level of confidence in choosing para over por (or vise versa) is very low. I'd happily take +110 odds I'm wrong.
If you are talking about something from Pueblo you use the term Poblano. China Poblano or the kidnapped slave from the 17th century is one of the most famous symbols of Puebla, and the name of a restaurant in the Cosmopolitan casino. Other phrases are "Mole Poblano" to refer to the famous sauce with multiple ingredients, but including chocolate and chilies. There are other kinds of moles as well. Oaxaca is sometimes called the "land of the seven moles". And lastly "cemita poblano" to refer to a sandwich made with the rolls with the sesame seeds.
The folk etymology in Mexico is to associate "cemita" and "semite" because of the fact that many Arabs bake this bread. Another famous delicacy if you visit Puebla is "tacos arabesque" which you can get in the main zocalo.
I don't think you would use "bocadillo" and "cemita" together. Bocadillo refers to a sandwich with hard crusty bread, while "cemita" is a soft bread with sesame seeds. The mainstay when you are walking around Madrid is to eat bocadillo de tortilla espanola (where tortilla is the egg and potato dish and not the Mexican style tortilla). It is cheap, filling and warm.
Phrase of the day
"Madrid tiene nueve meses de invierno y tres meses de infierno"
Quote: WizardTo make a long story short, it would seem that a small waterfall is a cascada, and a big one is a catarata.
I gave up trying to find a difference years ago.
Quote:No hay nada mejor que un bocadillo cemita para almuerzo. = There is nothing better than a cemita sandwhich for lunch.
Ok, for starters the Spanish word for "sandwich" is "sandwich." Yes, I know it's not on the text books, I know your tutor will probably hit you or strike you or smite you or something if you say so, but the Spanish word is "sandwich," at least all over Mexico.
Next, in case you absolutely refuse to say sandwich in Spanish, the word you should use then is "emparedado." Bocadillo means something like a bite-sized appetizer, or some type of miniature sandwich, or a cracker with a topping.
Finally: No hay nada mejor que un sandwich DE cemita para EL almuerzo"
Except you're running into cultural difficulties again. In Spanish-speaking countries, all of them as far as I know, the mid-day meal is the big meal of the day. "lunch" here means something like a snack break, which some people do call "almuerzo." So for a mid-day meal, referred to as "comida," a sandwich isn't enough. But that's a different problem.
Quote: NareedI gave up trying to find a difference years ago.
If and when I make it to Iguazu Falls I will be sure to annoy todo el mundo with this question and report back on what they say.
Quote: NareedOk, for starters the Spanish word for "sandwich" is "sandwich." Yes, I know it's not on the text books, I know your tutor will probably hit you or strike you or smite you or something if you say so, but the Spanish word is "sandwich," at least all over Mexico.
If I say sandwich for "sandwich," it will make the hair on the back of her neck stand up. She can't stand it when English words are adapted into Spanish, when there was already a perfectly good Spanish word. For example, one of her biggest pet peeves is the use of the word aparcar for "park," as in to park a car. She says this is a bastardized version of the English word for park, and the correct word is estacionar. Speaking of lunch, I think she once said that sometimes Spanish-speaking people in Vegas refer to lunch as "lunche," which makes her cringe just as much.
Quote: NareedIn Spanish-speaking countries, all of them as far as I know, the mid-day meal is the big meal of the day.
I can't speak for anybody else, but after a big meal I just want to sit down and relax for a while. It would not be conducive to my productivity in a regular job if I ate an enormous lunch every day. Perhaps this explains the affinity for an afternoon siesta.
Quote: WizardIf and when I make it to Iguazu Falls I will be sure to annoy todo el mundo with this question and report back on what they say.
Just make sure to stand away from the railing when you do so. :)
Quote:If I say sandwich for "sandwich," it will make the hair on the back of her neck stand up. She can't stand it when English words are adapted into Spanish, when there was already a perfectly good Spanish word.
Spanish teachers are like that. My own, dear HS Spanish teacher was that way, too. But I won the sandwich argument with him anyway :)
See, the noun "sandwich" is taken from a proper name. I think it was an English Lord, or Earl of some place called Sandwich. Therefore, I argued, the use of the name sandwich for the food is as appropriate as Cognac, or Tequila, or Champagne are for those drinks, even if Spanicized to words like Coñac or Champan (or Champaña). We went over it for a few days, and he conceded. Curiously, for him, he admonished me to use the full term sandwich rather than Spanicized verisons like sangüich (I kid you not).
I think I used the Sandwich Islands as an example, too, though I'm not sure such islands are even real :)
Quote:For example, one of her biggest pet peeves is the use of the word aparcar for "park," as in to park a car. She says this is a bastardized version of the English word for park, and the correct word is estacionar.
She has a point there. The right word in Spanish is "estacionar."
Quote:Speaking of lunch, I think she once said that sometimes Spanish-speaking people in Vegas refer to lunch as "lunche," which makes her cringe just as much.
More likely "lonche."
In Monterrey, NL, the word "lonche" means "sandwich."
Quote:I can't speak for anybody else, but after a big meal I just want to sit down and relax for a while. It would not be conducive to my productivity in a regular job if I ate an enormous lunch every day. Perhaps this explains the affinity for an afternoon siesta.
Me, too. But it's ahrd to change what you're used to. So unless I'm on a setting that leaves me no choice, such as Summer camp, I keep to big mid-day meals around 2-3 pm and ligther dinners around 8-10 pm. At work it does nothing for afternoon productivity.
Quote: NareedSee, the noun "sandwich" is taken from a proper name. I think it was an English Lord, or Earl of some place called Sandwich. Therefore, I argued, the use of the name sandwich for the food is as appropriate as Cognac, or Tequila, or Champagne are for those drinks, even if Spanicized to words like Coñac or Champan (or Champaña). We went over it for a few days, and he conceded. Curiously, for him, he admonished me to sue the full term sandwich rather than Spanicized verisons like sangüich (I kid you not).
I think I used the Sandwich Islands as an example, too, though I'm not sure such islands are even real :)
That's a very clever argument. According to DRAE "taco" literally means "plug" or "wadding". It would seem stupid to call a taco a "plug" just to give it an English name, So it makes sense to keep the British proper name for a sandwich.
Old English wīc, meaning ‘trading center’ or ‘harbor’, but I think it was kind of harbor of convenience, instead of a full fledged harbor like San Diego.
So the Earl of Sandwich was just the earl of a place called "Sandy Harbor". It's in the Southeast corner of England, where you catch the ferry straight to Ooestend, Belgium if you want to bypass France entirely. The suffix shows up in Norwich (North harbor), Eastwick (East Harbor), Southwick, and Westwick.
The Sandwich Islands was the original name for the Hawaiian Islands. Captain Cook named them for his sponsor, John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, but he was killed in 1779. The newly emerging nation of USA took an early interest in the islands, and they were never formally part of the British empire. However, the USA did not adopt Hawaii as a territory until over a hundred years later when they took Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Guam, and Philippines in one summer.
El deseo de proteger a una lengua de la influencia extranjera parece extraño que, naturalmente, ampliar los idiomas mediante la adopción de las palabras.
Por ejemplo, nadie siente la necesidad de eliminar los "pajamas" en el idioma Inglés sólo porque la palabra es el Hindi. Cómo se dice "pajamas" en México?
Quote: pacomartinThat's a very clever argument.
Why, thank you.
Quote:Old English wīc, meaning ‘trading center’ or ‘harbor’, but I think it was kind of harbor of convenience, instead of a full fledged harbor like San Diego.
I didn't know that.
I suppose if you dig enough about old European and British titles, you'll find a "Duke of the rottin marsh" or something like that ;)
Quote:El deseo de proteger a una lengua de la influencia extranjera parece extraño que, naturalmente, ampliar los idiomas mediante la adopción de las palabras.
Beats me. There's not one language on earth, save perhaps some primitive indigenous languages, that do not incorporate words from other languages. English perhaps more than most, but I wouldn't be surprised if French and Dutch, too, have incorporated words from Caribbean and Spanish sources in them.
Quote:Por ejemplo, nadie siente la necesidad de eliminar los "pajamas" en el idioma Inglés sólo porque la palabra es el Hindi. Cómo se dice "pajamas" en México?
Así, exactamente.
I'm serious. You'll sometimes find them spelled as "pIjamas," and the accepted, common pronunciation in mexico is "piyamas." When refering to a single set, too, you'll hear "pijama."
Quote: NareedI suppose if you dig enough about old European and British titles, you'll find a "Duke of the rottin marsh" or something like that ;)
Possibly, if you dig deep enough. Most of the names have pretty mundane origins:
Duke of Cambridge from Grontabricc from "Bridge on the River Granta"
Duke of Edinburgh from Din Eidyn "fort on a slope." Dunedin in New Zealand represents an attempt at the original form
Duke of York from Eoforwic probably meaning "Yew-Tree Trading place" (there is that wic again
Duke of Kent from Canticum often explained as "coastal district" but possibly "land of the hosts or armies"
Duke of Gloucester from Gleawceaster "bright place" (perhaps influenced by O.E. gleaw "wise, prudent") + O.E. ceaster "Roman town."
What do these Spanish words have in common?
abandonar
abordar
abrasa
arpa
arrimar
atrapar
bala
balón
banda
bandido
banco
blanco
brasa
estaca
guardar
sala
trampa
Quote: pacomartinWhat do these Spanish words have in common?
¿Nada?
Quote: Nareed¿Nada?
All those words were not taken from Latin, but are of Germanic origin. So adopting words from languages like English like aparcar has a traditional basis, and was done over the centuries.
I will grant you that there are only a handful that were adopted by the Spanish languages, versus the hundreds of thousands of latin words that were adopted into English.
I find it interesting that all the Western languages have at least the very basics in common like letters and sentence structure. However, Chinese, for example, is just totally off the wall in comparison. For example, instead of letters, they have a unique drawing/symbol for most words. Then again, didn't the ancient Egyptians write that way too? I'm sure one could write a very thick book on this topic, so sorry to open a lata de lombrizes.
Quote: WizardOn the topic of idiomas in general, what do you have to say of the Asian languages? I know there are some similarities between Chinese and Japanese, and I think the major Asian languages have some words that sound very similar. I'm not sure what my question is, but who influenced who? Is there some master Asian language, perhaps defunct, that they are all roughly based on?
There is a scientific theory that all languages derived from a single "proto-human" language which existed 100K-130K years ago. It would also go nicely with the Toba Catastrophe theory that says that 70K years ago when the Toba volcano erupted all the competing species except homo sapiens sapiens, and Neanderthals were eliminated. It is also thought that HSS was reduced to a few thousand breeding pairs.
But, to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in Asia equivalent to Proto-Indo European (PIE) that unites most of the European languages. On the other hand, the population of Europe is relatively recent compared to that of Asia and Africa, and languages may reflect that. Of course, you have the problem of isolates like Basque.
Quote: WizardI find it interesting that all the Western languages have at least the very basics in common like letters and sentence structure.
There's no mystery about the alphabet. Rome dominated all of Europe. What ti didn't conquer directly, it heavily influenced through trade. So the whole continent found it expedient to adopt the Roman alphabet.
As to sentence structure, I'm not so sure. You've found English and Spanish vary a lot in that regard. I understand German often leaves the verb near the end of a sentence.
Quote:I'm sure one could write a very thick book on this topic, so sorry to open a lata de lombrizes.
That doesn't travel well, either. And it is "lombriCes." For some reason, in words ending with a "Z," like "lapiz" the letter gets changed to a "C" when making the plural, like "lapices."
I'm sticking my neck way out on this one -- it's my son who has a PhD in German, while I struggled to get a passing grade in it 45 years ago. Nevertheless, my recollection is that the standard structure of a German sentence has the primary verb as the second element, with either the subject or some other element in the lead position. I suspect that what you are thinking about, Nareed, is the dependent clauses in German sentences, where verb elements end the clause, sometimes with multiple verb elements stacked almost on top of each other at the end, if there is a complex combination of clauses.Quote: NareedI understand German often leaves the verb near the end of a sentence.
Yo no soy autoridad en alemán. YMMV.
Estado: Queretaro
Palabras: Peña
Today's state is Queretaro. It is a small state I don't hear about often, and a tough one to get placas from. Like many states in southern Mexico, it has Myan pirámides.
The SWD is peña, which comes from the Peña de Bernal, the third largest "monolith" in the world, behind the more famous rock of Gibralter and Suglarloaf Mountain in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I think "monolith" is defined as a single piece of rock. I've climbed up Stone Mountain, Georgia, and wonder how that compares, or if it even counts as a monolith.
Anyway, the word peña by itself means a rock or large stone. Don't confuse it with piedra, which I take to mean a small rock/stone. I don't think Spanish has separate words for stone and rock.
Ejemplo time.
Traté subir a la peña, pero lo era demasiado escarpado para mí = I tried to climb the monolith, but it was too steep for me.
Doubts:
I thought about omitting the lo, as it could be implied from context, and somehow doesn't feel right. However, I'd kick myself if I omitted it, and Nareed told me it should be there.
It isn't often I stump my tutor, but when I tried to tell the story of some mountain I climbed I asked her how to say "steep" in Spanish, and she didn't know. We had to look it up, but I don't recall what she thought was appropriate for the siutaiton, thus still have my doughts about escarpado.
I will always have doubt in my usage of para y por.
I still have trouble beteween yo and mi, but am pretty sure mi is right in this case. I'm putting the accent on the i because it follows a preposition.
Quote: WizardToday's state is Queretaro. It is a small state I don't hear about often, and a tough one to get placas from. Like many states in southern Mexico, it has Myan pirámides.
And you criticize my knowledge of geography?
Queretaro is north and west of Mexico State, and it's not precisely small. There's a lot of industrial activity there, including a recently built aircraft plants part belonging to a Canadian company called Bombardier. I don't know if there are any pyramids there, but if so none are Maya. The Maya lived in the southeast of Mexico and what is now Belize and Guatemala.
I think you confused it with Quintana Roo, which is in the formerly Maya regions.
Quote:I don't think Spanish has separate words for stone and rock.
Respectively "piedra" y "roca."
Quote:Traté subir a la peña, pero lo era demasiado escarpado para mí = I tried to climb the monolith, but it was too steep for me.
Close. Bur first:
Quote:Doubts:
I thought about omitting the lo, as it could be implied from context, and somehow doesn't feel right.
You should have thought harder :)
Quote:However, I'd kick myself if I omitted it, and Nareed told me it should be there.
Well, you can't kick yourself very hard. It's not physically possible :) It doesn't belong in that sentence. Now:
Traté subir a la peña, pero era demasiado escarpadA para mí
Quote:It isn't often I stump my tutor, but when I tried to tell the story of some mountain I climbed I asked her how to say "steep" in Spanish, and she didn't know. We had to look it up, but I don't recall what she thought was appropriate for the siutaiton, thus still have my doughts about escarpado.
I think your tutor lacks some knowledge of English. The word you want is "empinado/empinada." Escarpado works, too.
Quote:I will always have doubt in my usage of para y por.
No problems there this time.
Quote:I still have trouble beteween yo and mi, but am pretty sure mi is right in this case. I'm putting the accent on the i because it follows a preposition.
Really? Yo means I, Mí means Me. It's not quite as simple as that, but it works most times.
Quote: NareedWell, you can't kick yourself very hard. It's not physically possible :) It doesn't belong in that sentence.
Thanks for all your help. I guess my philosophy is that it is a lesser sin to put in a word that doesn't belong than omit one that does.
Quote: NareedTraté subir a la peña, pero era demasiado escarpadA para mí
I blew the genders again. Why wouldn't it be demasiada, since peña is feminine?
Quote:Really? Yo means I, Mí means Me. It's not quite as simple as that, but it works most times.
Then where does me (in Spanish) fit in? I thought of mi more like my or myself.
Quote: Labeled with Love by Squeeze
Drinks to remember I me and myself
And winds up the clock
And knocks dust from the shelf.
Quote: WizardToday's state is Queretaro. It is a small state I don't hear about often, and a tough one to get placas from. Like many states in southern Mexico, it has Myan pirámides.
I also am confused by your comment. Querétaro has a few pyramids, but they are over 500 miles away from the major settlements of the closest Mayan cities. Although there were a number of minor civilizations in Mexico before the conquest, there were 6 significant ones with far reaching empires.
(1) Olmec civilization in Veracruz and Tabasco (no ruins left, only sculptures)
(2) Zapotec arose in the Valley of Oaxaca (oldest Metropolis in Western Hemisphere. Original name was forgotten so called Monte Alban after range in Italy)
(3) Teotihuacan civilization arose in the Valley of Mexico (Pyramids of sun and moon outside of Mexico city)
(4) Maya civilization began in modern-day Guatemala and expanded into the Yucatán Peninsula (multiple locations in deep South)
(5) The Toltec for a time dominated central Mexico in the 11th – 13th century, then collapsed (very admired by the Aztec)
(6) The Aztec Empire arose in the early 15th century (Tenotichlan was capital, Completely destroyed by conquistadores and Mexico city built on ruins)
(*) Discovery by Spain and conquered by the conquistadores.
Aztec means "people from Aztlan". The major tribe did not call themselves Aztecs, but "Mexica". The Mexico told the Spaniards they did not know where Aztlan was located, as the history had been lost in their two century migration. The Chicano movement in the '60s and '70s popularized the idea that Aztlan was in the American southwest, and the Mexicans were reclaiming their ancient homeland. Even today, the National Park Service tried to destroy an piece of folk art that says Aztlan from a park in San Diego because they considered it to be subversive. The official position of the Mexican government is that Aztlan was located in present day Nayarit.
Teotihuacan (pyramids of sun and moon) was the center of a great civilization that was located roughly 26 air miles from the center of the Aztec civilization. It had been completely abandoned for centuries at the time of the conquest.
Queretaro had no cities at the time of the conquest and was built up by the Spaniards. It is considered part of the heartland of the Independence movement, and is never referred to as "southern" by Mexicans. Queretaro is one of the more affluent and fastest growing regions of central Mexico, and is dominated by a single urban area. The city is often mentioned as the primary candidate for a terminus for a new generation of high speed rail.
Quote: pacomartinI also am confused by your comment. Querétaro has a few pyramids, but they are over 500 miles away from the major settlements of the closest Mayan cities. Although there were a number of minor civilizations in Mexico before the conquest, there were 6 significant ones with far reaching empires.
Okay, when it comes to my Mexican geography and history, give me an:
F
Please consider me sitting in the corner, with my back to the class, head slumped over in shame, with a big dunce cap on my head, as I take in your lecture.
As for my requisite sentence, let me get off my high horse and go back to my first Spanish class in junior high: Me gusta la biblioteca.
Quote: WizardThanks for all your help.
You're welcome. I'm glad I can help (if indeed I'm helping)
Quote:I guess my philosophy is that it is a lesser sin to put in a word that doesn't belong than omit one that does.
Ah, my philosophy is that there's no such thing as sin. But that's off topic.
Quote:I blew the genders again. Why wouldn't it be demasiada, since peña is feminine?
It's hard to say, namely because I don't know. But using "demasiada escarpada" sounds as if there exists too much steep, which of course makes no sense. We need a grammar pro.
Quote:Then where does me (in Spanish) fit in? I thought of mi more like my or myself.
It's more a kind of conjugation. I'm sorry but again I'm stuck explaining it. When you grow up with a language you just get these things.
The word "myself" has no equivalent in Spanish.
Quote: WizardMe gusta la biblioteca.
Tengo dos bicicletas;
uno dos tres y cuatro
cinco seis siet ocho
nueve diez
no remembro how to say eleven
Me llamo Mike
Me llamo Mike
I suppose having lived there and been pals with archeologists makes you forget that most people have not read about meso-America.
I think from school I remembered that there were Mayans, Aztecs, and Incas and then there was something about an eagle eating a snake.
Probably the most important things to remember are:
(1) Olmecs were the mother civilization, not the Mayans. They left no ruins, only artifacts and giant heads
(2) The culture that built the Pyramids of the Sun and Moon vanished in the 8th century
(3) The Mayan culture was on it's last legs when the Spaniards arrived
(4) The city that would become Mexico City was founded in 1325, and it was far more sophisticated than most (or all) of the cities in Europe
(5) The conquest was in 1520
Before radio-carbon dating it was more difficult to date things. It took a long time until the 19th and early 20th century scientists would concede that the Mayans were not the mother culture. What most people perceived as African features shocked the discoverers of the first giant heads in the 19th century, leading to theories of an African Colombus who had sailed 2000 years before the real Colombus.
I never even heard of this theory about an African Columbus. ¡Que interesante! Was this before or after the lost tribe of Israel who buried the gold plates that Joseph Smith dug up?
Bueno, onto new business.
Fecha: 6 de Noviembre, 2011
Estado: Quintana Roo
Palabras: Cereza
Today I'm going to try to stay away from Mexican geography and history and stick to Spanish as much as possible. To be hoenst, I couldn't tell you the difference between the Maya and the Aztecs anyway. However, I'll stick my head out and say that Quintana Roo is home to Cancun and, would you believe, another city by the name of Tres Marias?
It was not easy finding a SWD of the day for QR, so I'm going with cereza (cherry), which is the name of a park in Cancun. A related word is cerezo, which means a cherry tree or the wood from a cherry tree. However, hopefully arbol de cereza will still be acceptable, otherwise my ejemplo will get an F. My self-esteem is battered from yesterday, so go easy on me.
Ejemplo time.
No puedo decir una mentira, me corté el árbol de cereza = I am not able to tell a lie, I cut down the cherry tree.
Quote: WizardIt was not easy finding a SWD of the day for QR, so I'm going with cereza (cherry), which is the name of a park in Cancun. A related word is cerezo, which means a cherry tree or the wood from a cherry tree. However, hopefully arbol de cereza will still be acceptable, otherwise my ejemplo will get an F. My self-esteem is battered from yesterday, so go easy on me.
Well, I'll tell you tomorrow, then.
Today I'll say there's an acronym in use in Mexico, CERESO, which means jail. It represents three words, the first is CEntro. Can you guess the rest?
Quote:No puedo decir una mentira, me corté el árbol de cereza = I am not able to tell a lie, I cut down the cherry tree.
Lose the "me." With it, the closest the sentence comes to making sense is that there's a part of your body you call a cherry tree and you cut it. And even that's a few steps past being bizarre :)
Quote: NareedToday I'll say there's an acronym in use in Mexico, CERESO, which means jail. It represents three words, the first is CEntro. Can you guess the rest?
How about Centro de Recreos y Soñar = Recreation and Dream Center. I've seen some US jails (on TV), which looked like that was the intended purpose. Just read rudeboyoi's guide on gambling in jail. He probably gambled and slept the whole time in the pokey.
Quote:Lose the "me."
Like I said yesterday, when in doubt, throw in some extra words. Seriously, I was trying to make it clear who was doing the cutting.
Quote: WizardHow about Centro de Recreos y Soñar = Recreation and Dream Center.
In your dreams :)
Quote:Like I said yesterday, when in doubt, throw in some extra words. Seriously, I was trying to make it clear who was doing the cutting.
Well then, "corté" is explicit enough. If you want to make it more so, say "yo corté"
And it's tomorrow now, so: Not all fruit trees have a proper name, as far as I know, but some do and are well known. Cerezo, as you pointed out, manzano, nogal, and palmera are possibly the best known and used. Perhaps things have changed by now, but in my day saying "árbol de manzanas" instead of "manzano" was seen as puerile.
Quote: NareedNot all fruit trees have a proper name, as far as I know, but some do and are well known. Cerezo, as you pointed out, manzano, nogal, and palmera are possibly the best known and used. Perhaps things have changed by now, but in my day saying "árbol de manzanas" instead of "manzano" was seen as puerile.
Interesting. Would a pineapple tree be a piño?
In case the answer is "no," Me gusta la biblioteca.
Quote: WizardInteresting. Would a pineapple tree be a piño?
Las piñas no crecen en árboles :)
But pine trees are calle "pinos." a christmas tree is called "árbol de navidad," but some are marketed, for some reason as "pinos de navidad."
To be honest, fruit trees are rarely referred to. When they are, though, it's usually by their "proper" names, rather than as "árbol de..." About the only exception I can think of, at least commonly, are lemon trees. They are usually called "árbol de limones" rather than "limonero."
Many of our customers for some reason order orange blossom "tea." The word for orange is "naranja." The tree is called "naranjo." The "tea" is called "Te de naranjo."
Quote: WizardLike I said yesterday, when in doubt, throw in some extra words. Seriously, I was trying to make it clear who was doing the cutting.
You might want to review the Table of English personal pronouns. Also Table of Spanish personal pronouns.
In English Mike would not confuse "I cut" with "cut me" since there is a clear distinction between Mike being the subject or the object of the verb.
In English in the second person, we do use the same word, "you" for the second person for both single and plural: "You cut" and "cut you", but most languages use different pronouns.
Also in English we very often leave the reflexive verbs as assumed. In English if you say "I bathed", the assumption is that means "I bathed myself", while in Spanish you have to explicitely use the reflexive.
Modern English pronouns are much less complex than Old English pronouns. Cases in Old English (including pronouns) have greatly simplified in modern English.
