Cooperation game
Poll
 | 17 votes (34%) | ||
| | 12 votes (24%) | ||
| | 1 vote (2%) | ||
| | 5 votes (10%) | ||
| | 5 votes (10%) | ||
| | 6 votes (12%) | ||
| | 3 votes (6%) | ||
| | 7 votes (14%) | ||
| | 3 votes (6%) | ||
| | 1 vote (2%) |
50 members have voted
September 1st, 2016 at 7:02:20 AM
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Keep up the $1 picks!
I picked $1... One thing we MUST NOT DO RIGHT NOW is worry about the later rounds! Mike is just trying to put glitz and glammor in our eyes but we DO NOT have a $1 or $50 situation. Focus on THIS round... We have $1 and $4. KEEP THE $1 PICKS GOING! We'll deal with the later rounds one at a time.
I picked $1... One thing we MUST NOT DO RIGHT NOW is worry about the later rounds! Mike is just trying to put glitz and glammor in our eyes but we DO NOT have a $1 or $50 situation. Focus on THIS round... We have $1 and $4. KEEP THE $1 PICKS GOING! We'll deal with the later rounds one at a time.
This is hysteria at its best guys, ignore it. Max EV (for the number of people that actually bet) would have been $10 more. HOW ABOUT THAT WIN THOUGH. This contest is literally NOT about Max EV. The play here is 0 variance.Quote: Wizard...I'm impressed by the unselfishness of the group. However, it was at the cost of leaving money on table. 18 out of 37 people could have chosen $3, yet only 13 did. I think you all could gain by a little more selfish...
Not at all! So long as we WIN the round the team did a great job... Again, it's NOT about Max EV.Quote: JoemanSo, is the team concept dead in the water? I had such high hopes for a team strategy, but if we can't get even get a simple majority on board, it doesn't look promising.
As a team we must assume his pick is going to be $4.Quote: charliepatrick5th round picked at random where P(Hi)=1/3, P(Lo)=2/3...
Because we're all trying to play along together. If you don't want to then you're a party pooper who doesn't have dreams of hookers and blow at the next meetup, and to that I say good day, sir!Quote: WizardofnothingWhy do I need to post my pick?
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
September 1st, 2016 at 7:43:14 AM
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Romes, do I have to dream about hookers 'n' blow if I vote $1? ;)Quote: RomesIf you don't want to then you're a party pooper who doesn't have dreams of hookers and blow at the next meetup, and to that I say good day, sir!
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
September 1st, 2016 at 7:48:08 AM
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Bidding $4 without a ton of reasoning. My bids thus far are: 1, 1, 3, 1, 4.
September 1st, 2016 at 7:52:45 AM
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Quote: MrGoldenSunBidding $4 without a ton of reasoning. My bids thus far are: 1, 1, 3, 1, 4.
umm that is not a proper sequence.
1,1,3,1,1,4 it must be
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
September 1st, 2016 at 8:01:35 AM
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Quote: Wizardofnothing
Why do I need to post my pick?
I agree with Romes that for us to collectively beat Mike, we ALL, team player or not, need to know where the remaining players are up to in the bidding. In an ideal world we would have organised a team play where either the opportunity to bid big would have been fairly shared, or the resulting 'profit' would have been shared. But as a society we failed to work as one mind and had one total loss round and 3 sub-optimal rounds. Only a sensible altruism stopped round 4 being a bust.
We may despise weasels like me who insist on bidding big, but if we are to even approach max ev, then there must be some big bidders, and others should not seek to punish them. Punish them= punish yourself. By all means come up with a strategy for deciding how to fairly distribute the big bid opportunities, but until then, we have, as I see it, two opportunities to do OK:
Encourage all players, to bid low.
Encourage ALL Players to declare their bid and to consider all previous bids in the round before doing so.
Those of 'the 40' who failed to get your bid in... Shame on you!
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
September 1st, 2016 at 8:01:43 AM
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Quote: GWAEumm that is not a proper sequence.
1,1,3,1,1,4 it must be
Not sure what you mean--this is round 5.
September 1st, 2016 at 8:51:29 AM
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Well no, of course not... but it's kind of like buying a lottery ticket then spacing out for 30 minutes dreaming about what you would do with the money even though you subconsciously know it's really never going to happen.Quote: JoemanRomes, do I have to dream about hookers 'n' blow if I vote $1? ;)
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
September 1st, 2016 at 9:43:20 AM
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This is why I kept saying the best way for a team was to try, on average to give each player a {Lo Lo Hi} in three weeks.Quote: OnceDear...we would have organised a team play where either the opportunity to bid big would have been fairly shared....
One method was to allow each player to pick their own option at random.
Another way would have been to give everyone a random number (say a card from a normal deck but no clubs) and pick a random card (no clubs) - if your suit matches you can bet High, else Low.
Another method (which actually I liked when I thought about it) is to pick six 50/50 events (e.g. sports matches with spread, odd/even numbered winner of a horse race). The team leader posts (possibly PM) the events; everyone can openly announce their picks (ensuring they don't cover another players choices, and non-team members don't know the matches). Those who get 4 of more correct could bet high; and the rest would bet low: you'll find (1 6 15 20 15 6 1 /64) on average 22 from 64 would get to bet high.
Example - First six races held at Epsom Tuesday 30th August ( http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/meeting/epsom-downs/30-08-2016 )
Player 1 picks OEOEOE (O=Odd, E=Even)
Player 2 picks OEOEEO
Player 3 picks OOEEOO
etc.
Result 14:00 2 (E), 14:35 5 (O), 15:10 3 (O), 15:45 4 (E), 16:20 2 (E), 16:55 7 (O).
You can see that Player 2 can pick Hi, the other two pick low.
September 1st, 2016 at 10:19:11 AM
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Wizard--I want whatever my accumulated winnings are when this is over to go to Opportunity Village in Las Vegas, and I hope others will do the same.
September 1st, 2016 at 11:18:05 AM
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$4 picks still available: 10
Last edited by: Canyonero on Sep 1, 2016
September 1st, 2016 at 11:41:15 AM
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Quote: MrGoldenSunNot sure what you mean--this is round 5.
it was my attempt at a joke. Like on the SATs, which number comes next.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
September 1st, 2016 at 12:17:12 PM
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One player, who wishes to remain anonymus, has informed me of their $4 pick, which is reflected in the tally:
$4 picks still available: 9
$4 picks still available: 9
September 1st, 2016 at 12:42:55 PM
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If you don't know then it's probably you.Quote: OnceDearQuote: AxelWolf[FYI. There's one person here I actually think is a SP.
? Might be a daft question, but what is an SP in this context?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 1st, 2016 at 1:11:02 PM
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As i told OD, If you don't know it's probably you.Quote: TwoFeathersATLIf everyone would post their pick, the max win would be available.
I too wonder what is an SP....
I pick $1 for round 5, PM sent.
I will pick the high $$ for round 6 unless the team strengthens again.
Cheers!
Oh crap, I forgot who I'm talking to. I don't want you to freak out and get all paranoid I'll share with you below.
check below
oops wrong one
bid $1 2f and check below
your getting closer
almost there
have you ever seen the jack links messing with Bigfoot commercials?
Check your email
look in the mirror and you will see a SP
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 1st, 2016 at 2:31:23 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfAs i told OD, If you don't know it's probably you.
Oh crap, I forgot who I'm talking to. I don't want you to freak out and get all paranoid I'll share with you below.
check below
oops wrong one
bid $1 2f and check below
your getting closer
almost there
have you ever seen the jack links messing with Bigfoot commercials?Check your emaillook in the mirror and you will see a SP
Silly old Foxy
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
September 1st, 2016 at 2:48:23 PM
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Don't lie you clicked each and every one of them.Quote: OnceDearQuote: AxelWolfAs i told OD, If you don't know it's probably you.
Oh crap, I forgot who I'm talking to. I don't want you to freak out and get all paranoid I'll share with you below.
check below
oops wrong one
bid $1 2f and check below
your getting closer
almost there
have you ever seen the jack links messing with Bigfoot commercials?Check your emaillook in the mirror and you will see a SP
Silly old Foxy
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 1st, 2016 at 5:13:28 PM
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As a late entrant to the game, whose entry came in the failed round 3, I have a grand $1 in the bank for the team effort. As much as I would like to grab one of the $4 bids, I believe there are some non truthful participants in this game, so I am going to bid $1 for the 3rd straight time.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 1st, 2016 at 5:15:56 PM
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I clicked everyone of them, is that a bad thing? I'm older, and uglier, and poorer, and less intelligent than you. Still, when we meet in person, I may just kick your ass. You know, just for fun ;-)Quote: AxelWolfDon't lie you clicked each and every one of them.Quote: OnceDearQuote: AxelWolfAs i told OD, If you don't know it's probably you.
Oh crap, I forgot who I'm talking to. I don't want you to freak out and get all paranoid I'll share with you below.
check below
oops wrong one
bid $1 2f and check below
your getting closer
almost there
have you ever seen the jack links messing with Bigfoot commercials?Check your emaillook in the mirror and you will see a SP
Silly old Foxy
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
September 1st, 2016 at 5:19:06 PM
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Am I missing out on something by not checking into this thread as often as I should? The boatload of analysis I can understand, but for the stakes we've been playing for it looks like too many unnecessary mind games have been going on. Anyhow I haven't seen a compelling reason to significantly alter my plans, so... yahtzee.
September 1st, 2016 at 5:23:30 PM
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Quote: GWAEit was my attempt at a joke. Like on the SATs, which number comes next.
I hang my head in shame for missing the joke then! I usually pick up on dry humor.
September 1st, 2016 at 10:47:27 PM
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I have voted $1 $1 $3 and $3, but I'm choosing to keep my vote private for this round.
Like always I'm up for collusion, but it doesn't seem like too much of that has happened yet. Maybe now that we have more info on rounds and whatnot.
Like always I'm up for collusion, but it doesn't seem like too much of that has happened yet. Maybe now that we have more info on rounds and whatnot.
September 2nd, 2016 at 12:31:52 AM
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As predicted. Did you ever find out what a SP was? Write down the 6th letter in each spoiler add an S to the beginning and a P in middle.Quote: TwoFeathersATLI clicked everyone of themQuote: AxelWolfDon't lie you clicked each and every one of them.Quote: OnceDearQuote: AxelWolfAs i told OD, If you don't know it's probably you.
Oh crap, I forgot who I'm talking to. I don't want you to freak out and get all paranoid I'll share with you below.
check below
oops wrong one
bid $1 2f and check below
your getting closer
almost there
have you ever seen the jack links messing with Bigfoot commercials?Check your emaillook in the mirror and you will see a SP
Silly old Foxy
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 2nd, 2016 at 5:28:37 AM
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You're right, Axel! Those Sbrnet Poyns around here are ruining the game for the rest of us!! :)Quote: AxelWolfDid you ever find out what a SP was? Write down the 6th letter in each spoiler add an S to the beginning and a P in middle.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
September 2nd, 2016 at 6:52:07 AM
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Quote: JoemanYou're right, Axel! Those Sbrnet Poyns around here are ruining the game for the rest of us!! :)
Ummm. Yeah. I played the home game, too. Even my acquired skills in Axelspeak did not get me thru this one.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
September 2nd, 2016 at 6:57:39 AM
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Why? It's literally in your own best interest to NOT keep it private. If you had a $4 pick then update the "$4 picks remaining." This doesn't make you part of the team/etc, but like I said it's in your own best interest to win your bet.Quote: gamerfreakI have voted $1 $1 $3 and $3, but I'm choosing to keep my vote private for this round...
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
September 2nd, 2016 at 8:21:09 AM
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Quote: RomesWhy? It's literally in your own best interest to NOT keep it private. If you had a $4 pick then update the "$4 picks remaining." This doesn't make you part of the team/etc, but like I said it's in your own best interest to win your bet.
Yeah, would have to agree. Whichever you choose, you want to win, and we need more lows than highs, but there need to be highs as well, so either is good as long as it's known. That's true for everybody, not just you. It's the not telling that causes the losses, more than any greed factor, as people coming in late to the round should pick from what's advantageous, not blindly.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
September 2nd, 2016 at 11:34:47 AM
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What? He called me a cybernet peon? Should I feel insulted?Quote: beachbumbabsUmmm. Yeah. I played the home game, too. Even my acquired skills in Axelspeak did not get me thru this one.
Nah, it is what it is.......
I ams what I am...
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
September 2nd, 2016 at 11:38:10 AM
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I think some people playing the game feel they get more value out of playing head games with the other players, rather than getting a $1 or $3 from Wiz. This is, of course, fine, as it makes the game more interesting, and I am sure, adds some enjoyment to all reading this thread.
[ BEGIN PARANOIA ]
Personally, I think Mike has a bet on the outcome of this game with a member of this forum. In fact, it may even be a player in the game. Neither bettor is allowed to publicize the bet, or they lose. The bet is either resolved as to number of rounds that are paid $0, or perhaps it is tied to the total amount of money won by the collective players. Which side has the over, or under, I have no clue.
Anyone have a better explanation?
[ END PARANOIA ]
[ BEGIN PARANOIA ]
Personally, I think Mike has a bet on the outcome of this game with a member of this forum. In fact, it may even be a player in the game. Neither bettor is allowed to publicize the bet, or they lose. The bet is either resolved as to number of rounds that are paid $0, or perhaps it is tied to the total amount of money won by the collective players. Which side has the over, or under, I have no clue.
Anyone have a better explanation?
[ END PARANOIA ]
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 2nd, 2016 at 11:44:38 AM
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Quote: RaleighCraps, <Big Snip> I have no clue.
Anyone have a better explanation?
]
"SP"
'I have no clue'.
May change my signature byline ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
September 2nd, 2016 at 12:27:52 PM
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Oooo.... Conspiracy theory, anyone?Quote: RaleighCraps... Personally, I think Mike has a bet on the outcome of this game with a member of this forum.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 2nd, 2016 at 12:52:49 PM
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[ BEGIN PARANOIA ]
I have decided that one of the more vocal advocates of the "all bet $1" group selects the max each time himself, saying to himself this is the way to play the game +EV
[ END PARANOIA ]
actually, the paranoia has not ended LOL
I have decided that one of the more vocal advocates of the "all bet $1" group selects the max each time himself, saying to himself this is the way to play the game +EV
[ END PARANOIA ]
actually, the paranoia has not ended LOL
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
September 2nd, 2016 at 2:44:00 PM
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Oh crap, I meant the 5th letter.Quote: JoemanYou're right, Axel! Those Sbrnet Poyns around here are ruining the game for the rest of us!! :)
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 2nd, 2016 at 3:04:07 PM
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Oh, OK. But I think it's spelled "psyche," not "psyki!"Quote: AxelWolfOh crap, I meant the 5th letter.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
September 2nd, 2016 at 6:58:37 PM
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Quote: odiousgambit[ BEGIN PARANOIA ]
I have decided that one of the more vocal advocates of the "all bet $1" group selects the max each time himself, saying to himself this is the way to play the game +EV
[ END PARANOIA ]
actually, the paranoia has not ended LOL
You can't be a pimp and a prostitute too.
I am a robot.
September 2nd, 2016 at 7:12:29 PM
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Quote: onenickelmiracleQuote: odiousgambit[ BEGIN PARANOIA ]
I have decided that one of the more vocal advocates of the "all bet $1" group selects the max each time himself, saying to himself this is the way to play the game +EV
[ END PARANOIA ]
actually, the paranoia has not ended LOL
You can't be a pimp and a prostitute too.
Jack White, cool guy.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 2nd, 2016 at 11:04:54 PM
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Yeah, I would bet it's between SOOPOO and Mike. The rest of us are the lab rats. But paid better than kibble.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
September 3rd, 2016 at 4:23:11 AM
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Quote: beachbumbabsYeah, I would bet it's between SOOPOO and Mike. The rest of us are the lab rats. But paid better than kibble.
Gulp......
September 3rd, 2016 at 10:54:00 PM
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Hello everyone, just got back from a few days in Reno.
For what it's worth, I'll deny having any bets on the game. However, when it comes to games based on trust, lying is allowed.
About 10 hours left to get your picks in. I'm still waiting on five more.
For what it's worth, I'll deny having any bets on the game. However, when it comes to games based on trust, lying is allowed.
About 10 hours left to get your picks in. I'm still waiting on five more.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 4th, 2016 at 12:12:37 AM
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Quote: WizardHello everyone, just got back from a few days in Reno.
For what it's worth, I'll deny having any bets on the game. However, when it comes to games based on trust, lying is allowed.
About 10 hours left to get your picks in. I'm still waiting on five more.
I was just in Reno for a few days, and went to Rib Madness at the Nugget. The Western Village has a great coffee shop, and single deck BJ for $2!!! Lots of NSUD penny video poker. You could make a $100 bill last a looong time there.
September 4th, 2016 at 1:27:04 AM
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Quote: Wizard..., I'll deny having any bets on the game. However, when it comes to games based on trust, lying is allowed...
Awesome
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
September 4th, 2016 at 6:05:27 AM
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Quote: WizardHello everyone, just got back from a few days in Reno.
For what it's worth, I'll deny having any bets on the game. However, when it comes to games based on trust, lying is allowed.
About 10 hours left to get your picks in. I'm still waiting on five more.
So is this the same as saying the following?
Rule 1: Lying is allowed
Rule 2: I always tell the truth
:-D
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 4th, 2016 at 10:47:12 AM
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Round 5 Results
Very good group. Given 36 votes, you maximized the most you could get out of me in one round. Had one $1 picker switched to $4 you would have all got zero.
You got the best of me that time. I think I'm going to have to lick my wounds and admit I got outsmarted.
For round 6 I'm going to lower the temperature a bit and go back to the $1/$2 options. Picks will be due 9AM Vegas time on Wednesday.
Very good group. Given 36 votes, you maximized the most you could get out of me in one round. Had one $1 picker switched to $4 you would have all got zero.
| Pick | Count | Percent |
|---|---|---|
| $1 | 19 | 52.8% |
| $4 | 17 | 47.2% |
| Total | 36 | 100.0% |
You got the best of me that time. I think I'm going to have to lick my wounds and admit I got outsmarted.
For round 6 I'm going to lower the temperature a bit and go back to the $1/$2 options. Picks will be due 9AM Vegas time on Wednesday.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 4th, 2016 at 10:55:35 AM
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My $2 pick is submitted
September 4th, 2016 at 10:58:11 AM
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Quote: PlayYourCardsRightMy $2 pick is submitted
as is mine...
September 4th, 2016 at 11:18:28 AM
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Quote: WizardRound 5 Results
Very good group. Given 36 votes, you maximized the most you could get out of me in one round. Had one $1 picker switched to $4 you would have all got zero.
...
You got the best of me that time..
Awesome. Absolutely AWESOME.
OK. Some luck was involved, but I reckon the 'bid and tell' approach is the way to go. Let's see if we can keep a rolling tally accurate for this round.
Well done the late bidders for not abandoning us there. It may be that ONE last minute $1 bidder saved all our bacon!!!
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
September 4th, 2016 at 11:22:25 AM
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Quote: Wizard
For round 6 I'm going to lower the temperature a bit and go back to the $1/$2 options. Picks will be due 9AM Vegas time on Wednesday.
In view of the reduced premium for going big, I'm going to change my strategy and bid low this time.
So. Taking declarations from after the starting gun....
PlayYourCardsRight = $2
RonC = $2
OnceDear = $1
Rolling tally
High = 2
Low =1
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
September 4th, 2016 at 11:23:32 AM
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Quote: OnceDear...Some luck...
Yes it was a close thing and I can't guarantee that it will be a red card again - every week I make my selection random.Quote: my message$1 : Fifth round - King of Hearts! I'm still picking with P(Hi) = 33%.
September 4th, 2016 at 11:26:13 AM
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D-d-d-down? Now you woke up my pout mode but good.
1 dollar. PM sent. Shutting up before I forget my manners, considering you're paying the bills.
1 dollar. PM sent. Shutting up before I forget my manners, considering you're paying the bills.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
September 4th, 2016 at 11:32:33 AM
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Quote: beachbumbabsD-d-d-down? Now you woke up my pout mode but good.
1 dollar. PM sent. Shutting up before I forget my manners, considering you're paying the bills.
PYCR,2
RonC,2
OD,1
BBB,1
Rolling tally
High = 2
Low =2
Bid not disclosed,1
Keep the tally going guys.
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
