DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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December 18th, 2015 at 7:43:18 AM permalink
I think the arrest and confiscation was a bit over the top, but a mere trespass seems a little light.

So what's a casino to do???



Quote: darkoz

I looked up 3 OK tribal casinos...

1) none printed the rules of membership period.

Did you go to the rewards desk to ask for a copy? I find it easy to believe it's not on their website, but a physical copy has to be available.
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MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:04:29 AM permalink
Sounds illegal to me.

Using free-play which belongs to someone else is theft, on the face of it.

Were he squeaky clean, he'd have pre-approved the move with the casinos ahead of time, to get their permission.

The fact that he didn't do so indicates he realized his plan had an element of danger / foolhardiness to it.

Put yourself in the shoes of casino security: you discover that someone is using a plethora of different peoples' cards to download freeplay: you just let them walk?

No.

You assume he's a thief and act accordingly.
"What, me worry?"
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:25:40 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I think the arrest and confiscation was a bit over the top, but a mere trespass seems a little light.

So what's a casino to do???



Did you go to the rewards desk to ask for a copy? I find it easy to believe it's not on their website, but a physical copy has to be available.



Trespassing and deleting all comps earned including future offers plus terminating membership should be plenty (this would punish both user and card owner financially, which is where it really hurts.)

As for going to the rewards desk, I live in NYC so I'm not traipsing to Oklahoma to find out. I surmise it is, but I was also surprised the website said nothing. Every casino on the Eastern seaboard I've visited does.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:30:24 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Sounds illegal to me.

Using free-play which belongs to someone else is theft, on the face of it.

Were he squeaky clean, he'd have pre-approved the move with the casinos ahead of time, to get their permission.

The fact that he didn't do so indicates he realized his plan had an element of danger / foolhardiness to it.

Put yourself in the shoes of casino security: you discover that someone is using a plethora of different peoples' cards to download freeplay: you just let them walk?

No.

You assume he's a thief and act accordingly.



Sounding illegal to your sore ears does not make it illegal. I can tell you it isn't on the advice of legal counsel.

Casino security has not had a history of doing what is the smart move when it comes to banning advantage play. As I pointed out, their strongest wall to being sued here is their Tribal status.

As for asking the casinos permission, you act like you haven't been reading the AP messages on here for years. Are you suggesting card counters ask the casinos for permission? UX vultures, as well? Haven't you gotten yet that the casino considers all winners by skill (even progressive bonus hunters) to be thieves?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:31:19 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Sounds illegal to me.

Put yourself in the shoes of casino security: you discover that someone is using a plethora of different peoples' cards to download freeplay: you just let them walk?

No.

You assume he's a thief and act accordingly.



Personally, I have never heard of a casino taking action until this year. There is a case working it's way through the legal system in Pa, against a team of AP's, playing on different cards.

There are no doubt hundred of violations each and every day at each and every casino, involving spouses using each others cards, and people using cards of family members and friends. I see it all the time. I get in line behind someone at one of the kiosks who swipes multiple cards. If casinos took action against everyone doing this, it would be a lot of court cases. Hell, it even occurs regularly in my household. :/ My partner plays most of my free play.

It's kind of like finding free credits on a machine. It is technically illegal to play or cash out those credits, but it is done routinely and usually even if the casino sees they will look the other way.

BUT, this is yet another reason why I decided long ago to avoid Indian Casinos. They can and do pretty much whatever they want.
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:36:59 AM permalink
The punishment may be too harsh, but I do believe your friend was committing fraud because he was representing that he was the other person. It doesn't matter if he had permission from them.
Order from chaos
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:48:53 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

The punishment may be too harsh, but I do believe your friend was committing fraud because he was representing that he was the other person. It doesn't matter if he had permission from them.



Its not fraud because the players showed up, presented their ID's, received the cards and then willingly handed them over to their friend.

If you hand your wife or friend your credit card and they make a purchase over the internet with your permission, that is fraud in your mind? I guess my daughter has committed fraud multiple times as I've allowed her to use my cc for purchases on Ebay?

BTW - when you sign up for a players card, you give your word through the agreement of membership not to allow others to use your players card. I have seen legal counsel in other cases state that anyone using another members card is not in violation of the membership because they never agreed to those terms (i.e, the person in violation is the valid card-holder, not the person they lent it to who never agreed to any contractual rules since they never signed up for a card).

Yes, don't mess with lawyers. They are smarter than you and the casinos. However, again, these damn tribal casinos don't have to play by normal rules.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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December 18th, 2015 at 9:00:49 AM permalink
I would like to clarify for those who seem to confuse casino rules with casino laws.

Casino laws are established by the state (usually the regulatory agency and lawmakers.)

Casino rules enforce these laws as well as additional rules of conduct which are not enforceable within the law.

To tell the difference is actually quite easy.

Casino laws are stated as such in any posted warnings in all the casinos I have ever visited.

A good example will be: No one under the age of 21 may enter or gamble upon the casino floor (pursuant to gambling law xxxyyy, statute 14.7 blah, blah, blah)

You get the point.

Notice the listing of the statute is enough to declare it illegal without using that word even.

Check the rules about using another players card. Unless they state, pursuant to gambling violation.. etc) then you know it is a rule and not a law.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
sabre
sabre
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
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December 18th, 2015 at 10:11:31 AM permalink
Most states, if not all, have some kind of theft by deception law. Using a stack of other player's cards to get free play could certainly violate those types of laws. I don't get the opinion that it's trivially easy to understand that using someone else's card doesn't violate state law.
Joeman
Joeman
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
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December 18th, 2015 at 10:38:02 AM permalink
I'm curious... if slot free play "has no cash value," as is explicitly stated, is it still theft? Nothing of value was taken.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"

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