qwertyoc
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December 18th, 2015 at 12:20:39 AM permalink
A good friend of mine was just recently arrested for playing on players club cards on slot machines that were friends and families cards which he had full permission from the persons and they had given him their PIN numbers to use them. This is a tribal casino that operates in Oklahoma and he was arrested by tribal police who also seized all of the cards by searching him without his permission and was transported by them to a municipal/city jail where he had to spend several hours until posting bail. Not only was he arrested, they obtained a search warrant for his vehicle and they towed it to their tribal police station (which consists of a portable building) and searched the vehicle as well as seized items in the vehicle that were completely irrelevant to players club cards (they claim they have 10 days to document everything they took from the vehicle and then they will mail the items to him). Every players club card he had in his possession and was playing on were cards that were given to him by family and friends along with their PIN numbers so he had full permission to use them by every person. He would go during match play times where the casino offers a $5 or $10 match play in that you would play the amount on the machine and then be able to download the match offer onto the machine. I have heard of other people getting caught doing this in other casino's in the area (much larger casinos BTW) which will personally confront the person and give them a temporary short term ban with the threat of a trespassing charge but this Casino had never confronted him to let him know they had a problem with this and it seems like the Casino realized how much they were losing by offering the promotions and then try to retaliate against my friend by abusing their power and arresting him for something that isn't against the law. The charge is "Obtaining property by false pretense". How could they consider free/match play "property" considering it has no cash value as you can't just cash it out of the machine, it forces you to play the vapor credit/money. Also, he is "earning" the free/match play by first risking money of his own so it isn't just being given to him and on many of the cards and some trips to the casino loses money even when only playing the required amount and playing the match/free play offered (although mostly not). I am curious what others opinions are or if anyone else has had this happen to them?
rxwine
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December 18th, 2015 at 12:32:35 AM permalink
Of course, a casino doesn't want their promotions used in ways they don't intend. They likely get more value when more people are showing up, than one person using all the cards.

Anyway, don't know about the rest. Always interesting to hear individual results from enforcement. Never really know what they are going to do next.
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tongni
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December 18th, 2015 at 12:32:59 AM permalink
Probably not illegal, but your friend may spend $30k-80k in lawyer fees to prove that. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean you should do it or you will get away with it. You may PM for more detailed advice.
EvenBob
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December 18th, 2015 at 1:00:18 AM permalink
LOL! The universe punishes rash and un-thought
out acts likes this rather severely.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
darkoz
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December 18th, 2015 at 1:16:03 AM permalink
Quote: tongni

Probably not illegal, but your friend may spend $30k-80k in lawyer fees to prove that. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean you should do it or you will get away with it. You may PM for more detailed advice.



It is not illegal. Why would he spend 30k and up? The charge must be for something that is illegal. You don't have to prove a charge that doesn't exist.

In fact, if this was not a tribal casino, the casino would end up paying when a lawyer took them to court for illegal imprisonment. However, since it is a tribal casino, there is probably little recourse for a lawsuit.
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darkoz
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December 18th, 2015 at 1:24:02 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

It is not illegal. Why would he spend 30k and up? The charge must be for something that is illegal. You don't have to prove a charge that doesn't exist.

In fact, if this was not a tribal casino, the casino would end up paying when a lawyer took them to court for illegal imprisonment. However, since it is a tribal casino, there is probably little recourse for a lawsuit.



BTW - Every casino has published consequences in their club rules of what happens during unauthorized use of the cards by members other than the card holder. In every casinos literature, the consequences are usually forfeiture of promotional comp and, termination of membership. This is a casino standard (check the rules on almost every casinos website if you don't believe me.)

The published consequences are the only consequences the casino can do. If there were laws (you could be charged with a crime) then that would be stated.

Now, use of the cards without other players permission is a crime (theft of comps) and the tribal casino may be investigating (I'm sure they are not going to take your friends word for it.) Most likely, they will email or call the card holders to confirm. If they say they know nothing about it (to keep their comps) then your friend may be in trouble but these people would have to testify at a trial. And then your friend may have to spend thousands to get through this pickle. He should tell his family and friends to speak the truth if the casino contacts them.
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BleedingChipsSlowly
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December 18th, 2015 at 1:33:55 AM permalink
One tribal casino operating in Connecticut states "membership benefits are non-transferable," the other says "benefits are only valid for the guest whose name appears on the card." I think it probable the tribal casino your friend visited has a similar provision, and if so, he was violating tribal law. That said, it is generally known that spouses sharing a card is tolerated, but playing a large number of other people's cards is not. Your friend should have been aware of the risk he was taking. If you take the casinos money in a way they don't approve, of course they will step on you hard.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
darkoz
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December 18th, 2015 at 1:41:49 AM permalink
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

One tribal casino operating in Connecticut states "membership benefits are non-transferable," the other says "benefits are only valid for the guest whose name appears on the card." I think it probable the tribal casino your friend visited has a similar provision, and if so, he was violating tribal law. That said, it is generally known that spouses sharing a card is tolerated, but playing a large number of other people's cards is not. Your friend should have been aware of the risk he was taking. If you take the casinos money in a way they don't approve, of course they will step on you hard.



Please recognize that rules of a casino are not laws. Now tribal lands may be different however, if you were in a non-tribal casino and the rules you stated above were printed, this would not make using multiple cards illegal - because a casino is not a lawmaking body.

Now, I looked up 3 OK tribal casinos (there are about 500) and I noted two things about all of them.

1) none printed the rules of membership period. Nothing about consequences of using another players card. As BleedingChipsSlowly points out, the tribal casino in Connecticut certainly does.

2) These casinos are really small. One boasts of just 200 slots. In most casinos its impossible to catch this because they don't have the manpower to zoom in on thousands of players at the slots to check on who is using someone else's card but these casinos are so small, the guy probably gave himself away by switching cards
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BleedingChipsSlowly
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December 18th, 2015 at 2:00:05 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Please recognize that rules of a casino are not laws. Now tribal lands may be different however, if you were in a non-tribal casino and the rules you stated above were printed, this would not make using multiple cards illegal - because a casino is not a lawmaking body.

Now, I looked up 3 OK tribal casinos (there are about 500) and I noted two things about all of them.

1) none printed the rules of membership period. Nothing about consequences of using another players card. As BleedingChipsSlowly points out, the tribal casino in Connecticut certainly does.

2) These casinos are really small. One boasts of just 200 slots. In most casinos its impossible to catch this because they don't have the manpower to zoom in on thousands of players at the slots to check on who is using someone else's card but these casinos are so small, the guy probably gave himself away by switching cards

Point taken: casino regulations are not law. Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun are large enough enterprises to get the legal ends tied up nicely, as opposed to the outfits you researched. However, I wouldn't take their web site as the complete authority in the matter. I'll bet there was some paperwork signed during the process of obtaining a player's card that has much more detail. In the end I think we both agree the major fault was blatant abuse to the point of drawing attention.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
odiousgambit
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December 18th, 2015 at 3:15:28 AM permalink
I'd like to have multiple player's cards - and the permission to use them as I pleased - when what you can earn in promotional free play is limited. This would allow me to bust through the limits. I would then go ahead and use the free play.

Quote: qwertyoc

he is "earning" the free/match play by first risking money of his own



You seem to suggest your friend gives the free play earned to the person who loaned him the card. That is certainly still not going to be liked by the casino but probably they would tolerate it to some degree if they knew for sure that was the case. If I was the casino I'd assume it was situation #1 above without the granted permission though; I'd see if I could prove it too.

I agree that it seems they could have just banned him instead of going nuts; however, if the amounts he has accumulated trip over into the felony zone? You have to figure this sometimes happens. Since you are defending your friend, I'll go along with the idea that he was no such thief and sympathize. I'm sure you are confident about the quality of his character.

Did you give him your card and pin ?

btw, why does he need the pin?
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DJTeddyBear
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December 18th, 2015 at 7:43:18 AM permalink
I think the arrest and confiscation was a bit over the top, but a mere trespass seems a little light.

So what's a casino to do???



Quote: darkoz

I looked up 3 OK tribal casinos...

1) none printed the rules of membership period.

Did you go to the rewards desk to ask for a copy? I find it easy to believe it's not on their website, but a physical copy has to be available.
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MrV
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:04:29 AM permalink
Sounds illegal to me.

Using free-play which belongs to someone else is theft, on the face of it.

Were he squeaky clean, he'd have pre-approved the move with the casinos ahead of time, to get their permission.

The fact that he didn't do so indicates he realized his plan had an element of danger / foolhardiness to it.

Put yourself in the shoes of casino security: you discover that someone is using a plethora of different peoples' cards to download freeplay: you just let them walk?

No.

You assume he's a thief and act accordingly.
"What, me worry?"
darkoz
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:25:40 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I think the arrest and confiscation was a bit over the top, but a mere trespass seems a little light.

So what's a casino to do???



Did you go to the rewards desk to ask for a copy? I find it easy to believe it's not on their website, but a physical copy has to be available.



Trespassing and deleting all comps earned including future offers plus terminating membership should be plenty (this would punish both user and card owner financially, which is where it really hurts.)

As for going to the rewards desk, I live in NYC so I'm not traipsing to Oklahoma to find out. I surmise it is, but I was also surprised the website said nothing. Every casino on the Eastern seaboard I've visited does.
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darkoz
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:30:24 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Sounds illegal to me.

Using free-play which belongs to someone else is theft, on the face of it.

Were he squeaky clean, he'd have pre-approved the move with the casinos ahead of time, to get their permission.

The fact that he didn't do so indicates he realized his plan had an element of danger / foolhardiness to it.

Put yourself in the shoes of casino security: you discover that someone is using a plethora of different peoples' cards to download freeplay: you just let them walk?

No.

You assume he's a thief and act accordingly.



Sounding illegal to your sore ears does not make it illegal. I can tell you it isn't on the advice of legal counsel.

Casino security has not had a history of doing what is the smart move when it comes to banning advantage play. As I pointed out, their strongest wall to being sued here is their Tribal status.

As for asking the casinos permission, you act like you haven't been reading the AP messages on here for years. Are you suggesting card counters ask the casinos for permission? UX vultures, as well? Haven't you gotten yet that the casino considers all winners by skill (even progressive bonus hunters) to be thieves?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
kewlj
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:31:19 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Sounds illegal to me.

Put yourself in the shoes of casino security: you discover that someone is using a plethora of different peoples' cards to download freeplay: you just let them walk?

No.

You assume he's a thief and act accordingly.



Personally, I have never heard of a casino taking action until this year. There is a case working it's way through the legal system in Pa, against a team of AP's, playing on different cards.

There are no doubt hundred of violations each and every day at each and every casino, involving spouses using each others cards, and people using cards of family members and friends. I see it all the time. I get in line behind someone at one of the kiosks who swipes multiple cards. If casinos took action against everyone doing this, it would be a lot of court cases. Hell, it even occurs regularly in my household. :/ My partner plays most of my free play.

It's kind of like finding free credits on a machine. It is technically illegal to play or cash out those credits, but it is done routinely and usually even if the casino sees they will look the other way.

BUT, this is yet another reason why I decided long ago to avoid Indian Casinos. They can and do pretty much whatever they want.
DRich
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:36:59 AM permalink
The punishment may be too harsh, but I do believe your friend was committing fraud because he was representing that he was the other person. It doesn't matter if he had permission from them.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
darkoz
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December 18th, 2015 at 8:48:53 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

The punishment may be too harsh, but I do believe your friend was committing fraud because he was representing that he was the other person. It doesn't matter if he had permission from them.



Its not fraud because the players showed up, presented their ID's, received the cards and then willingly handed them over to their friend.

If you hand your wife or friend your credit card and they make a purchase over the internet with your permission, that is fraud in your mind? I guess my daughter has committed fraud multiple times as I've allowed her to use my cc for purchases on Ebay?

BTW - when you sign up for a players card, you give your word through the agreement of membership not to allow others to use your players card. I have seen legal counsel in other cases state that anyone using another members card is not in violation of the membership because they never agreed to those terms (i.e, the person in violation is the valid card-holder, not the person they lent it to who never agreed to any contractual rules since they never signed up for a card).

Yes, don't mess with lawyers. They are smarter than you and the casinos. However, again, these damn tribal casinos don't have to play by normal rules.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
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December 18th, 2015 at 9:00:49 AM permalink
I would like to clarify for those who seem to confuse casino rules with casino laws.

Casino laws are established by the state (usually the regulatory agency and lawmakers.)

Casino rules enforce these laws as well as additional rules of conduct which are not enforceable within the law.

To tell the difference is actually quite easy.

Casino laws are stated as such in any posted warnings in all the casinos I have ever visited.

A good example will be: No one under the age of 21 may enter or gamble upon the casino floor (pursuant to gambling law xxxyyy, statute 14.7 blah, blah, blah)

You get the point.

Notice the listing of the statute is enough to declare it illegal without using that word even.

Check the rules about using another players card. Unless they state, pursuant to gambling violation.. etc) then you know it is a rule and not a law.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
sabre
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December 18th, 2015 at 10:11:31 AM permalink
Most states, if not all, have some kind of theft by deception law. Using a stack of other player's cards to get free play could certainly violate those types of laws. I don't get the opinion that it's trivially easy to understand that using someone else's card doesn't violate state law.
Joeman
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December 18th, 2015 at 10:38:02 AM permalink
I'm curious... if slot free play "has no cash value," as is explicitly stated, is it still theft? Nothing of value was taken.
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mcallister3200
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December 18th, 2015 at 10:50:22 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

I'm curious... if slot free play "has no cash value," as is explicitly stated, is it still theft? Nothing of value was taken.



The IRS thinks free slot play has a cash value
RS
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December 18th, 2015 at 11:38:49 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

The IRS thinks free slot play has a cash value



I don't think so.

I believe you're supposed to report what your actual results were after playing through the free-play (ie: $100 FP, end up with $90, report a $90 win). Not a $100 win (FP) then a $10 loss.

But -- the casinos say it themselves, free-play has no cash value.
Dalex64
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December 18th, 2015 at 12:02:25 PM permalink
Quote: Joeman

I'm curious... if slot free play "has no cash value," as is explicitly stated, is it still theft? Nothing of value was taken.


"no cash value" just means that it can not be redeemed for cash.
Ibeatyouraces
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December 18th, 2015 at 12:04:47 PM permalink
Quote: RS

But -- the casinos say it themselves, free-play has no cash value.


This just means that they won't give you that value in cash. Store coupons are almost the same with most saying something like "cash value = 1/100 of 1¢" or something equivalent. When in reality, that coupon let's us keep the full amount listed in our pockets.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
waasnoday
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December 18th, 2015 at 12:29:45 PM permalink
At present time IRS does not consider free-play to be a revenue stream but they are looking to tax what is won from free-play at the promotional level and not at the present jackpot level. Currently a casino must report slot machine winning at the $1200 cap which includes winnings from free-play. Casinos have been informed that the IRS is considering a requirement for casinos to track all wins from free-play and reporting winning at the $600 dollar level. Casinos are not happy with that and are fighting it. Hopefully the reporting level does not change to the lesser level.

Regarding the player card issue, kewlj I believe has hit the nail on the head with his post. At present time there is a pretty major investigation in progress that does involve the FBI and is in regards to player card use, atm card use, and identity theft. A bulletin came out that mentioned a case in Ohio (I think) but also mentioned the east coast stuff. The bulletin was not that informative and basically supplied the information I just stated. That was several months ago and I have not had anything else like that cross my desk. While that investigation is happening, I think many native and non-native casinos may be a bit paranoid about player card use.
mcallister3200
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December 18th, 2015 at 2:39:53 PM permalink
Saying that the IRS doesn't consider freeplay to have monetary value but that the income from it is taxable is entirely an issue of semantics.
waasnoday
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December 18th, 2015 at 2:46:00 PM permalink
eh? Just reporting what the revenue audit staff was told at the last training session by the IRS rep that was present.
qwertyoc
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December 18th, 2015 at 4:19:14 PM permalink
Thanks everyone for the information so far, to answer some of the questions, this casino does not make you sign anything or read any rules about a players club card before issuing it. You hand them your license, they scan it and ask you what you would like to use for your PIN and then hand you the players card. On the Casino's website under casino rules, in regards to playing on other peoples cards states: "Use of another person's player's club card is not permitted for any reason." but then in regards to cashing out tickets (unrelated to this case) says "Using or cashing out another patron's machine credits/tickets without that patron's permission may result in a permanent ban and/or arrest and prosecution."

Why wouldn't they have said use of another persons card was subject to these same things unless they knew they have no right to do so regarding playing on another persons players club card?

Also, how can they allow a person to play on their spouses card and claim they have no problem with that but then prosecute because someone is playing more cards than they would prefer? It is either against the rules/illegal to play on someone elses card or it isn't? Correct?
BleedingChipsSlowly
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December 18th, 2015 at 5:16:16 PM permalink
In my opinion, they turn a blind eye towards spouses sharing cards as a practical decision. For most cases a marriage contract represents a shared pool of money, so treating both partners as a single business unit makes sense. I understand your objection to selective enforcement of a regulation. The regulation exists to protect the casino’s interest. I believe all businesses selectively enforce the regulations they make, ignore them if it suits their purpose and change them in a heartbeat if that’s expedient. Your friend may try to hinge his case on selective enforcement, but I think the severity of the violation will weigh against him.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
GWAE
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December 18th, 2015 at 5:34:20 PM permalink
Couldn't one just play ignorant? Even if the rules are posted on their site or on a sign in the casino how do they know you read it? I have never once signed anu thing saying I knew any rules nor have I even had them read to me when getting a new card. How would one know about these rules.
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SanchoPanza
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December 18th, 2015 at 5:46:55 PM permalink
Quote: qwertyoc

This casino does not make you sign anything or read any rules about a players club card before issuing it.

They don't have to do that. Each one of the five cards in my wallet says use of it means that you agree to their terms. Just like EULA's on computers and the Internet.
Quote: qwertyoc

On the Casino's website under casino rules, in regards to playing on other peoples cards states: "Use of another person's player's club card is not permitted for any reason." but then in regards to cashing out tickets (unrelated to this case) says "Using or cashing out another patron's machine credits/tickets without that patron's permission may result in a permanent ban and/or arrest and prosecution." Why wouldn't they have said use of another persons card was subject to these same things unless they knew they have no right to do so regarding playing on another persons players club card?

Because they DO have "that right." If you post a link or copy of the rules here, that can be shown.
LuckyCharms711
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December 18th, 2015 at 5:49:18 PM permalink
GWAE: Ignorance has never been a viable excuse to break the law or even just rules. If you say you didn't know the speed limit the cop will still give you a ticket. It's you're responsibility to know. Likewise, if a rule states "must wear proper attire" but you show up in something else, you still don't get to go into the venue. Despite not knowing what to wear. Again, it was your responsibility to find out.
GWAE
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December 18th, 2015 at 7:34:45 PM permalink
Quote: LuckyCharms711

GWAE: Ignorance has never been a viable excuse to break the law or even just rules. If you say you didn't know the speed limit the cop will still give you a ticket. It's you're responsibility to know. Likewise, if a rule states "must wear proper attire" but you show up in something else, you still don't get to go into the venue. Despite not knowing what to wear. Again, it was your responsibility to find out.



I guess that is all true.

I guess the million dollar question is whether or not it is actually illegal or just breaking the rules.
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Paigowdan
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December 18th, 2015 at 10:11:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

... Haven't you gotten yet that the casino considers all winners by skill (even progressive bonus hunters) to be thieves?


Interestingly, the casino where may partner and I get our field trials suggest and endorse publicly supplying the player's strategy, even on the rack cards, so that the new games can be played well and properly (skillfully) by the patrons. We agree, because our games should be played well and properly by all participants. Players may use skill in setting their hands, and dealers use skill in properly dealing the house way. Never had a problem for setting a hand well in Pai Gow Poker or making the correct holds in Jacks or Better. The fact that something's a skill is irrelevant, it's that it's allowed or disallowed.

Some Casinos even sell strategy cards in their gift shops. Was never considered a thief for these skills.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
muleyvoice
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December 21st, 2015 at 7:56:22 AM permalink
So if a casino gift shops sells a book on counting, then it would be ok too ???
AxelWolf
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December 21st, 2015 at 9:10:25 AM permalink
Quote: muleyvoice

So if a casino gift shops sells a book on counting, then it would be ok too ???

Interesting. If you know a casino that does this, it would really destroy all of Dan's arguments about it being against the house rules.

Not that his arguments are good in the first place.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
gamerfreak
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December 21st, 2015 at 9:28:35 AM permalink
Granted this is all true and no info is being left out, I feel like this is something that would only happen at a Tribal Casino.

Getting arrested and having your car seized/searched over a players club card is the civil rights equivalent of getting taken to the back and roughed up.
ukaserex
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December 21st, 2015 at 11:00:21 AM permalink
My opinion is this: I can't see/read any fine print by the tribal casino in question, but I'm pretty sure that these cards do not belong to the player. They belong to the casino and are issued to the player.

Let's be honest here. Your friend is getting over on the casino by using other people's free/match play. You say he's risking his own money - he's not. He puts 5 coins in, the machine reimburses those 5 coins, win or lose. So, he is essentially stealing money from the casino. You could argue that if it's not him getting the money, it's his friend/family, so what's the harm?

Honestly - I can't say what the specific harm is, because nobody can really specifically lay out the financial loss.

But, I think it comes down to human psychology.

One person, like myself when I'm rested, can enter a casino, use the free play and leave without doing any more gambling
Another, like myself when I'm not rested, can enter a casino and will toss 400 bucks in one machine hoping for a big hit and then be mad at myself for believing the machine "was due".
Another person, like myself with a whole lot of beer (hasn't happened in a dozen years) and a few shots of Ouzo, will call friends, bring them into the casino and give all of them money to gamble and blow thousands that were ear-marked for other things.

So, when those match/free play offers are sent out - and one guy uses all of them, unless he's guy number 3, or maybe even guy number 2, it doesn't really play to the casino's best interest. I realize that the casino looks like some big giant place with big stacks of money on hand and that "they can afford it", but the reality is, for whatever reason, most casino's are struggling to make it. With the proliferation of sites like these educating players, with travel costs rising (maybe not fuel costs, but some airfares are pretty high) and workers wanting more money and more benefits - those costs are having an impact on the casinos, too.

I remember the last time I was playing Roulette at Boomtown in Vegas. The croupier said, "Hey, we didn't quit when we were winning!" (I left $640 ahead doing nothing but betting 5 bucks on the 2nd and 3rd thirds every spin. Very, very lucky. ) Remember, all those dealers, the flashing lights, they all have to get paid. Their insurance is probably being subsidized if not wholly paid by the casino. Taxes are likely high - maybe not for a tribal casino. Ultimately, jackpots can have a big impact on their bottom line, too. Over time, they *should* make that up, but they don't always last long enough. And, of course, sometimes, they're mismanaged. For example: too comp heavy - like Harrah's on the gulf coast. I've spent $1400 bucks in a two month period through two trips. Now I get 120 bucks of free play for the next two months, plus a lot of comps for meals and free rooms. Far more than what I've put into them. (only right since their machines don't have the best pay-tables and their buffet is sub-standard.)

So, that's my opinion. Beat the casino with your own free/match play. Don't give yours to others, and don't accept theirs. Those free play offers are like a part time job for me, giving me about $200 to $400 a month over the past 6 months. And it's a lot more fun than other jobs I've had. Let's not give them a reason to stop giving it out.
"Those who have no idea what they are doing, genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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December 21st, 2015 at 11:30:10 AM permalink
Quote: muleyvoice

So if a casino gift shops sells a book on counting, then it would be ok too ???


No. Casino bookstores may even sell Richard Marcus' book on how he used past posting and "pre-posting/retrieval" methods (the infamous Savannah) and that wouldn't make such actions all right.
The point here is that some things are indeed all right, but that the casino in this case doesn't mind allowed good play, as opposed to any sort of disallowed play, and AP's do know this difference. So no, they don't need to post the Bill of Rights or all of the State regs right at the table for them to be in force. Casinos don't expect all people to follow the rules, and will have the floorman provide status updates to the player if anything is amiss.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
muleyvoice
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December 21st, 2015 at 11:47:21 AM permalink
" will have the floorman provide status updates to the player if anything is amiss." Guido is the one who will deliver the update. LOL
TomG
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December 21st, 2015 at 11:47:40 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: darkoz

Haven't you gotten yet that the casino considers all winners by skill (even progressive bonus hunters) to be thieves?

Never had a problem for setting a hand well in Pai Gow Poker or making the correct holds in Jacks or Better. The fact that something's a skill is irrelevant, it's that it's allowed or disallowed.



And by setting the hand correctly you earn an income? By what percentage of all money bet?
Paigowdan
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December 21st, 2015 at 12:03:03 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

And by setting the hand correctly you earn an income? By what percentage of all money bet?


No. I earn my income from a daytime job, like most people. I do not view the casino as a personal income source if I am not wearing a dealer's uniform or don't have a game installed. I view gambling as an entertainment expense, like other forms of entertainment. This is a radical view around here.
At the casino, I may or may not win, - I have a chance to win - and I generally don't win most of my sessions not having a positive EV, but I win some.

I neither expect or demand a positive EV, and I get that the games are supposed to have a house edge. I also pay for my movie tickets without going in to an adjacent film showing for an extra free movie.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Romes
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December 21st, 2015 at 12:10:27 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

...I view gambling as an entertainment expense, like other forms of entertainment. This is a radical view around here..

No, that's not a radical view here nor anywhere. We expect people to have that view because they don't understand what they're doing, they're just attempting to be entertained. What's radical is how often you criticize others for not having your view, or stating that others are wrong for not sharing your view (such as card counting is OMG WRONG/ILLEGAL/etc).
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Paigowdan
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December 21st, 2015 at 12:41:33 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

No, that's not a radical view here nor anywhere. We expect people to have that view because they don't understand what they're doing, they're just attempting to be entertained. What's radical is how often you criticize others for not having your view, or stating that others are wrong for not sharing your view (such as card counting is OMG WRONG/ILLEGAL/etc).


1. I believe it is a radical view here, or at least unwelcome. While it is the way of the casino business to insure that the house edge provides its needed income to operate, the ability of the player to be happy and accepting of that cover charge is rarer in certain circles. While NOT illegal (hello), it is viewed as wrong in the eyes of the business and civilians, and so it is stopped via back offs, flat-betting, "Your Play is too good for us," etc. I get a sense that the juice or allure of AP is not in gambling per se, but in successfully getting away with some known various breaches for extra money, as the real purpose or the real goal. It becomes less that "gambling is the entertainment or the high," and that successfully getting away with AP maneuvers is the goal, the high, the juice. I actually enjoy straight up gambling at craps, UTH, PGP, and flat betting quarters on double deck with perfect Basic Strategy alone. This is real gambling, and it's openly viewed as silliness to do by the AP, that only a "real ploppie amateur" would ever play in such a pedestrian fashion, and this view of such play has been voiced here in a "if they only knew the excitement of real AP play." The horrors.

2. Both my view as well as any view is worthy of discussion and even critique.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
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December 21st, 2015 at 1:05:35 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I view gambling as an entertainment expense, like other forms of entertainment.



Then you are not a winner by skill as you tried to suggest. That is not a radical view, it is what makes up the vast majority of regular casino visitors. You are the type of player the casino desperately wants and spends millions trying to attract. For the few who truly do win by skill, they are either tolerated, or asked to leave.
TomG
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December 21st, 2015 at 1:14:27 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I get a sense that the juice or allure of AP is not in gambling per se, but in successfully getting away with some known various breaches for extra money, as the real purpose or the real goal.



When done right, it really isn't gambling at all. There is no value in "getting away with [something]." I heard one person describe it as seeing a $20 bill on the sidewalk and picking it up.

To me, most table games without an edge isn't "real" gambling either. It's just spending money. Playing a few hands with a green chip costs the same as buying a blue sugar free Rockstar at the grocery store everyday. Neither one is sillier than the other, but only the caffeine rush interests me, while the rush of the dice doesn't.
Paigowdan
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December 21st, 2015 at 1:23:04 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

Then you are not a winner by skill as you tried to suggest.


No; I may be a winner by skill. I may set a hand properly and win, whereas I would have lost if I had set it improperly. I have had winning sessions and losing sessions via regular play. In UTH I'll raise 4x with a J-10 suited; In BJ, I'll stand on 13 versus a 6. In PGP, I'll set KJ44332 as KJ/44332 and make use of the decent King top. I consider myself a winner if I had the action I wanted, the entertainment I sought, not whether or not I AP-ed. If I win, so much the better. I don't expect to win as a goal, I expect to play, and enjoy it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
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December 21st, 2015 at 1:32:15 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No; I may be a winner by skill. I may set a hand properly and win, whereas I would have lost if I had set it improperly. I have had winning sessions and losing sessions via regular play.



If the definition of "session" was from your very first bet until now, have you really had a winning session?
Paigowdan
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December 21st, 2015 at 1:33:51 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

When done right, it [AP play] really isn't gambling at all.



Ah, there it is. But isn't the purpose of the casino or gambling hall to provide us with gambling? That's what the casino executives and ploppie players believe they're doing. The question arises: Are they [casinos and players] deluded?

Quote: TomG

There is no value in "getting away with [something]." I heard one person describe it as seeing a $20 bill on the sidewalk and picking it up.


I believe this view of it.

Quote: TomG

To me, most table games without an edge isn't "real" gambling either. It's just spending money. Playing a few hands with a green chip costs the same as buying a blue sugar free Rockstar at the grocery store everyday. Neither one is sillier than the other, but only the caffeine rush interests me, while the rush of the dice doesn't.


Spending money is not improper if you get your entertainment.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
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December 21st, 2015 at 1:38:31 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

If the definition of "session" was from your very first bet until now, have you really had a winning session?


Yeah. No regrets overall, in fact, I can't picture my life without gambling. I will also say I've had a negative EV on owning reliable cars (they cost me money), on real estate (I rented for extended periods), on food (I had to eat), etc.
When my day comes (hopefully soon, for some of the people here [ahem, wink]...), I won't be taking any cash with me, but the experiences.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
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