Is it illegal to play on a another person's players card in a casino.
1. To gain comps/ (players points, meals, giveaways, rooms, etc.)
2. To avoid detection if previously identified in that casino as an advantage player.
3. To be able to play with unrestricted play.
4. To get free rooms.
2nd question - Is it illegal to check into a comped room in a casino under that players name, using that players I.D.?
Now this is only the viewpoint of a casino worker so understand there is bias and others here could provide you with more valid information regarding actual use from the player's standpoint.
Quote: waasnodayNot illegal but could very well be against the rules in place at the casino. Some establishments are pretty flexible on player card use but there are certainly many other places that will kick you out and remove any points earned during your play. It could also jeopardize your friend's status with the casino. Be prepared to show ID at some places in order to use any comps/freebies associated with the card. Also understand that just because you have a player's card does not mean your play will not be analyzed for AP such as card counting. One other thing to think about is for casinos one of the highest risk areas for fraud and employee theft the last few years has been within the player card/points area and because of that (well at least at my casino) there may be more due diligence at the casino when viewing the ID and confirming the holder of cards identity. The last item you might want to think about is Title 31. If your play has any T31 reporting requirements then providing another persons ID could have some legal ramifications.
Now this is only the viewpoint of a casino worker so understand there is bias and others here could provide you with more valid information regarding actual use from the player's standpoint.
Obviously using someone else's ID is illegal. I would never suggest doing it just for a room.
NOt necessarily. Legal to check into a hotel or a hospital under a false name as long as it is not with intent to defraud. HOw do you think stars stay at hospitals or hotels?Quote: GWAEObviously using someone else's ID is illegal. I would never suggest doing it just for a room.
I know of one rich Uncle who uses his card for six days and his Neice's card for one day. the casino really does not think his name changes to stephanie on that last day or that he reverts to age 27 on that last day. they know her comps will be big for the next two mailings due to his one day of playing on her card. the casino likes his action ... why should they object.
a comped room gives the hotel the right to boot you out at any time for any reason... you are not a guest or a transient if its a gift.
Quote: waasnodayNot illegal but could very well be against the rules in place at the casino.
I agree. The M casino trespassed a friend of mine for letting her friend use her card there. Other casinos are more lenient about it.
Quote: WizardI agree. The M casino trespassed a friend of mine for letting her friend use her card there. Other casinos are more lenient about it.
I just like to repeat what I posted in an earlier thread.
Trespass is a serious matter with legal issues.
Yes, I couldn't understand why they are so strick on this matter.
One time I was playing the electronic roulette machine. Betting $10 on red just to pass away the time.
I told my wife to play for me and just hit the repeat button as I wanted to get some fresh air and use the toilet.
When I came back 15 minutes later 2 suits were standing behind her. I was told they kept asking where is Mr..... and why are you playing for him.
Quote: bigfoot66On a related note, as a practical measure how do you all recommend one deal with getting a taxable hand pay while playing on someone else's card? It might look suspect to immediately pull the card, do most places bother to check that my ID matches my players card? I've never seen a place actually look at the card when they pull it for a hand pay but all my experience is for jackpots < $1200 . Any advice would be highly appreciated and will hopefully be relevant to me in the coming weeks.
Taxable payouts will have more scrutiny than non-taxable payouts. The casino in most cases will require two forms of ID to claim the payout and if you won this while playing under someone else's card you may or may not be paid depending on the casino. If you were using the other person's card because you were trespassed then generally they will not pay out the win. If this is not the result of a trespass then you may have a better chance getting the payout. The IRS and FinCEN have been warning casinos of their current focus on casino compliance so do expect most establishments to be very sweaty in regards to any taxable payout.
I have no idea how much weight they give this, but just know (at least at MLife) they will be willing to look at the cards of both players staying in a single room.
Quote: GWAELast week I used an elevator at my local casino for the first time. There were 3 signs and one of the said something like the person that spins is the owner of the win. That leads me to believe that even if you are using another person's card they could.nit withhold the winnings. Now if you were on the free play that may be different. I could also see where they pay you and then 86.
I would advise you avoid the elevators if you have significant amount of chips with you. Those chips, whether you bought for cash, or got lucky and won. Either way, if they just wind up at the bottom of the shaft, and never redeemed, well then the house comes out ahead, again ;-)
Quote: GWAELast week I used an elevator at my local casino for the first time. There were 3 signs and one of the said something like the person that spins is the owner of the win. That leads me to believe that even if you are using another person's card they could.nit withhold the winnings. Now if you were on the free play that may be different. I could also see where they pay you and then 86.
I won't count on the sign. I had a notice from the casino about the validity of the new points. When questioned effectively the reply is if you want to continue to play in our private club this is what we do. Never mind what you read or see.
Quote: ahiromuIf you are going through a host... or even talking to the MLife desk... you can usually just hand them both accounts that stayed in a given room and they will look at them together.
I have no idea how much weight they give this, but just know (at least at MLife) they will be willing to look at the cards of both players staying in a single room.
It is a matter especially in Vegas of selling your Comp hotel rooms. No casino would allow this.
So over here you have to check in with your IC and players card. After check in you can give the room key to anyone to use. But don't go for room service as the signatures won't match. If caught selling your room they would 86 you.
If your getting a.comped room just tell your host your friend is omming to town or something and your going to be hanging out there as well. Never had a host say yo7 could not do that. Or add someone to the room.Quote: Deck007I won't count on the sign. I had a notice from the casino about the validity of the new points. When questioned effectively the reply is if you want to continue to play in our private club this is what we do. Never mind what you read or see.
It is a matter especially in Vegas of selling your Comp hotel rooms. No casino would allow this.
So over here you have to check in with your IC and players card. After check in you can give the room key to anyone to use. But don't go for room service as the signatures won't match. If caught selling your room they would 86 you.
Quote: AxelWolfIf your getting a.comped room just tell your host your friend is omming to town or something and your going to be hanging out there as well. Never had a host say yo7 could not do that. Or add someone to the room.
Right just check in with your IC and players card. No need to say anything else.
But if you need a second room key they would need that person's IC.
I always ask for 2 keys even if im by myself.Quote: Deck007Right just check in with your IC and players card. No need to say anything else.
But if you need a second room key they would need that person's IC.
Basically, all I'm trying to accomplish is starting over in all the casino's that already flat-betted me, or placed restrictions on my play, under a new card. I have a friend, who dosen't gamble, whatsoever, so he dosent care if the casino restricts or suspends his account if they were ever to find out. He agreed to sign up for players cards in all the casino's I need him too, and give me a duplicate of his drivers license to use when needed (mostly for checking into rooms.).
I just wanted to make sure that I could not be arrested for using another person's i.d. for these purposes. (checking into a room, or getting free meals, access to lounges, etc.) I'm not attempting to defraud the casino in an attempt to commit a crime, (as advantage play is not a crime), but just wanted to make sure that pretending to be another person and using another players account to get comps in a hotel and casino is not a crime in itself.
I do not plan to do this in any casino I was already 86'd or trespassed in, but rather, the casino's that simply flat-betted me or placed restrictions on my play. As that would probably have some additional legal ramifications on top of trespassing charges, I would think. Eighter way, I wouldn't want to find out.
Kewlj, mentioned that PA arrested somebody for this, (as a side note, I do not plan to this in any PA casino's,) it would be A.C., and possibly, haven't decided yet, in CT.
Quote: waasnodayTaxable payouts will have more scrutiny than non-taxable payouts. The casino in most cases will require two forms of ID to claim the payout and if you won this while playing under someone else's card you may or may not be paid depending on the casino. If you were using the other person's card because you were trespassed then generally they will not pay out the win. If this is not the result of a trespass then you may have a better chance getting the payout. The IRS and FinCEN have been warning casinos of their current focus on casino compliance so do expect most establishments to be very sweaty in regards to any taxable payout.
Boy I find it hard to believe that they would not pay a legitimate win under any circumstances unless you were on the self exclusion list, and even then they typically have to donate the money to charity. Would it be smart for me to pull the card then, when I win, before an attendant shows up?
Quote: stabworldGreat, thanks everyone for the advice.
Basically, all I'm trying to accomplish is starting over in all the casino's that already flat-betted me, or placed restrictions on my play, under a new card. I have a friend, who dosen't gamble, whatsoever, so he dosent care if the casino restricts or suspends his account if they were ever to find out. He agreed to sign up for players cards in all the casino's I need him too, and give me a duplicate of his drivers license to use when needed (mostly for checking into rooms.).
I just wanted to make sure that I could not be arrested for using another person's i.d. for these purposes. (checking into a room, or getting free meals, access to lounges, etc.) I'm not attempting to defraud the casino in an attempt to commit a crime, (as advantage play is not a crime), but just wanted to make sure that pretending to be another person and using another players account to get comps in a hotel and casino is not a crime in itself.
I do not plan to do this in any casino I was already 86'd or trespassed in, but rather, the casino's that simply flat-betted me or placed restrictions on my play. As that would probably have some additional legal ramifications on top of trespassing charges, I would think. Eighter way, I wouldn't want to find out.
Kewlj, mentioned that PA arrested somebody for this, (as a side note, I do not plan to this in any PA casino's,) it would be A.C., and possibly, haven't decided yet, in CT.
In one post you started you complain about how a casino mistreated you and held you against you will and now you are admitting to criminal activity to cheat a casino. Using someone's else drivers license is a crime.
http://www.njlaws.com/fraudulent_documents_to_police_and_government.htm
Quote: bigfoot66Boy I find it hard to believe that they would not pay a legitimate win under any circumstances unless you were on the self exclusion list, and even then they typically have to donate the money to charity. Would it be smart for me to pull the card then, when I win, before an attendant shows up?
I am not sure pulling the card will accomplish very much. The software in use were I work will have all the data associated with the card until the card is removed. What that means is if you have won a payout with the card in then the payout is already associated with that card. Basically you would need to pull the card prior the win and if you are able to predict wins that well then get me those lottery numbers! In most cases they would probably payout the win and tell you to get your own card but some places are just really jumpy around their player club stuff.
One thing that may be partially driving the paranoia is there is some debate within the IRS on how to treat winning from e-credits/freeplay. Presently any win at $1200 and above requires reporting. Some in the IRS would like to see any win above $600 from e-credit/freeplay be reported. I think that may have some bearing on their pondering of lowering the $1200 limit to $600 but I have not been able to confirm that. So far the IRS has not required the casinos to track the $600 freeplay wins but it has come up in training sessions. The reasoning from the IRS is that wins from freeplay are basically promotional wins and thus should be reported at the promotional level of $600.
Quote: zoobrewIn one post you started you complain about how a casino mistreated you and held you against you will and now you are admitting to criminal activity to cheat a casino. Using someone's else drivers license is a crime.
http://www.njlaws.com/fraudulent_documents_to_police_and_government.htm
The title of the link you provided states "2C:21-2.1 Fraudulent Documents to Police and Government". From that title alone, I didn't even bother to read any further. Please tell me how this in any way relates to what I am asking in this thread?
1. I would not be using a fraudulent document. (it is a real i.d., not a fake i.d.)
2. I would not be presenting this i.d. to police or the government, but rather a hotel check in person, or a cashier at a casino store or casino eating establishment.
(I'm trying to deceive casino personnel, not the police or government. Casino employees are working civilians, not an official police authority or government. Big difference.) Obviously, any interaction with police, I would not try to portray myself to them as another person.
I am in actuality using the comp dollars I have personally earned through casino play, just under the guise of another players name.
Finally, I do not see what your point is when you say I complained in another thread about a casino mistreating me. What the casino did to me was illegal,. They committed a crime against me. They violated my civil rights - they kidnapped and detained me - they illegally searched and seized my property - they inflicted physical injury to me when illegally handcuffing me. What does one issue, have to do with another? I am not admitting to any criminal activity, I am simply asking for feedback to see if a certain act is illegal or not.
Quote: waasnodayI am not sure pulling the card will accomplish very much. The software in use were I work will have all the data associated with the card until the card is removed. What that means is if you have won a payout with the card in then the payout is already associated with that card. Basically you would need to pull the card prior the win and if you are able to predict wins that well then get me those lottery numbers! In most cases they would probably payout the win and tell you to get your own card but some places are just really jumpy around their player club stuff.
One thing that may be partially driving the paranoia is there is some debate within the IRS on how to treat winning from e-credits/freeplay. Presently any win at $1200 and above requires reporting. Some in the IRS would like to see any win above $600 from e-credit/freeplay be reported. I think that may have some bearing on their pondering of lowering the $1200 limit to $600 but I have not been able to confirm that. So far the IRS has not required the casinos to track the $600 freeplay wins but it has come up in training sessions. The reasoning from the IRS is that wins from freeplay are basically promotional wins and thus should be reported at the promotional level of $600.
Thanks for the information :)
Quote: IbeatyouracesI see a few people pull cards on big draws or dealt 3oak's. Definitely see it a lot on slots when someone hits a bonus round or a bunch of free spins.
But if your bonus/free spin win is pre-determined at the moment you hit the spin button, does it really make a difference as all the data from the player's card and slot win could already be collected even before you see the spin. I guess it would somewhat depend on the slot machine and the casino's network.
Quote: zoobrewBut if your bonus/free spin win is pre-determined at the moment you hit the spin button, does it really make a difference as all the data from the player's card and slot win could already be collected even before you see the spin. I guess it would somewhat depend on the slot machine and the casino's network.
True, but what casino is going to tell you the truth on how it works?
Quote: stabworldThe title of the link you provided states "2C:21-2.1 Fraudulent Documents to Police and Government". From that title alone, I didn't even bother to read any further. Please tell me how this in any way relates to what I am asking in this thread?
1. I would not be using a fraudulent document. (it is a real i.d., not a fake i.d.)
2. I would not be presenting this i.d. to police or the government, but rather a hotel check in person, or a cashier at a casino store or casino eating establishment.
(I'm trying to deceive casino personnel, not the police or government. Casino employees are working civilians, not an official police authority or government. Big difference.) Obviously, any interaction with police, I would not try to portray myself to them as another person.
I am in actuality using the comp dollars I have personally earned through casino play, just under the guise of another players name.
Finally, I do not see what your point is when you say I complained in another thread about a casino mistreating me. What the casino did to me was illegal,. They committed a crime against me. They violated my civil rights - they kidnapped and detained me - they illegally searched and seized my property - they inflicted physical injury to me when illegally handcuffing me. What does one issue, have to do with another? I am not admitting to any criminal activity, I am simply asking for feedback to see if a certain act is illegal or not.
I didn't read everything that you wrote but using someone elses ID certainly makes it a fraudulent ID.
I actually believe it might be a violation of the patriot act which makes it a serious felony. I am at work and don't have time to look it up, I am going on memory.
What I am not sure about, is it illegal to use a "fake" ID to a business to obtain services that are not illegal. ie, using someone elses ID to obtain beer when the person buying it is actually underage.
If you present the "fake" ID to law enforcement then that is a completely different story than showing it to the hotel desk.
Curious how you would handle it when the pit boss pulls up your file and sees that the ID that is scanned into the computer is not you, or when the hotel person notices that it is not actually you?
Quote: zoobrewBut if your bonus/free spin win is pre-determined at the moment you hit the spin button, does it really make a difference as all the data from the player's card and slot win could already be collected even before you see the spin. I guess it would somewhat depend on the slot machine and the casino's network.
In every place I've ever been, pulling a card mid-round doesn't change anything.
Coin in is recorded already, the win/loss is determined (which can take a few minutes if it's a fancy slot bonus where you've won up to 299 free spins with stacked wilds and they insist on flashing each line win on the screen for 14 seconds, 3 times per spin, before moving on to the next spin), and then coin-out is recorded. Then the card information is dissociated from the machine.
The (slight) advantage is that some places lock out "abandoned cards", and pulling them when a long bonus starts does seem to work to not trip the "no action" timer to lock out the card.
Quote: GWAE
Curious how you would handle it when the pit boss pulls up your file and sees that the ID that is scanned into the computer is not you, or when the hotel person notices that it is not actually you?
Just to give some background to others who are asking about using a friends ID who looks like them; it's a grey area. There really is no case law on it so you're not going to get a concrete answer from anyone. I had been using a friends players card and his ID who looks somewhat like me to obtain comps, FP, rooms, etc... But, after speaking with Bob Loeb about this subject, he told me it was illegal and I shouldn't do it. I too thought it wasn't a problem if you're presenting it to a hotel clerk or players club clerk, but I don't think it's worth the risk.
That being said I tried to obtain a players card at Foxwoods using his ID before I chucked the idea, and the players club rep took a good look at the ID, then me, then the ID again, and blurted out "is this you?" I almost shit my pants and was trying to think fast of how to get the hell out of there. She said I'm sorry this doesn't look like you I can't make you a card. Thankfully he has a big beard in the picture so I just said oh must be the beard. I Took the ID back and quickly dashed out of there. That was the first experience of that happening which also spooked me into getting rid of using his ID.
The bottom line is its not worth the risk, and do you really wanna be the first guy they send to jail and hire a lawyer and pay 100k+ in expenses? I don't.
That's the difference between your friend giving you his credit card to pick up soemthing at wal mart or you applying for a credit card in his name.... As trump would say
HUGGGEEEEEEE difference
Quote: gamerfreakI've always wanted to give my girlfriend my second players card to play slots with while I am at the table. I've always decided against it. I feel like something in the system would prevent a single player from earning points at different games simultaneously.
some casinos it won't let you. I had once left my card in a machine and went to play a table. Pit said he couldn't log me in because the card was already active.
As for using another persons ID, that is a different story. Intent to defraud is part of the legality and attempting to convince a casino you are someone you are not with valid ID that belongs to another could easily be construed as attempt to defraud. It's so much easier and legal to just ask your friend to come down and sign up, then hand you his card and pin. Suddenly, it goes from you defrauding a casino with false information to the casino handing someone a legit players card and that person deciding what he wanted to do with his own comps.
Quote: darkozUsing another persons players card with their permission is not illegal.
Why were those players in PA arrested?
Laws may be diffrent from state to state.
Pennsylvania has some of the most stringent gaming laws and some may be ambiguous.
I suggest contacting the gaming control board in whatever state you are inquiring about Perhaps an email or letter so you can get your answer in writing.
- thanks axelword
Perhaps not a smart play?
I dont think a lot of things are smart plays. IE TMI on internet forums or spreading TM AP information, but people do that.Quote: darkozI agree about not taking legal advice in forums although I don't know how it would look writing a letter to the gaming board showing an intent to use other people's players card at casinos in your state (complete with your name and home address) is even if they say it is legal.
Perhaps not a smart play?
I dont know if you have to use your real name to get an answer especially Via EMAIL . If you're just a guy who want's to know if he can use his son's/father's players card without getting into any possible legal trouble I can't see the harm in asking to get a good answer.
Ya the OP probably should not send a letter himself if he doesn't want to have possible problems. I was more talking about my example above. If by some chance you're from a family like the Brady bunch and you want to know if it's legal to use all of their cards it's probably not a good idea unless you really want to know the truth.
Quote: sabreWhy were those players in PA arrested?
Cause DA's who don't know anything about gaming law are over zealous and doing the casino's dirty work.
According to KJ and a few others it is a crime there. Obviously they are not going to harass couples or family members. Rumor has it the first time is a warning and the 2nd time a misdemeanor 3rd??? .Quote: NaturalEightCause DA's who don't know anything about gaming law are over zealous and doing the casino's dirty work.
AGAIN THIS IS ONLY WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING.
