Miscellaneous Discussion Thread
Wait a minute, you and Bill Ryan both believe in this kind of b*******.Quote: MaxPenIf you have ever been in the presence of the death of another you would not doubt that a soul exists.
Thank you very much for the great post.Quote: SOOPOOI've had thoughts about a negative event about a loved one with no evidence. They have never been true. So I don't talk about it; its a big nothing. The trillions of times this has happened to me and you and the other billions of earthlings no one bats an eye. The time it is true..... it must be supernatural?
Take an event like WW2. I'm sure there were millions of mothers that 'knew' something bad happened to their child, bit it didn't. The ones that it did.... attribute it to something otherworldly.
Quote: rxwineDo you think everyone who works with dying people feels the presence of souls leaving? I mean, I already know not everyone does. So, I'd have to disagree with that statement.
Also, from personal experience, can't say I have either.
I was there when my dad physically stopped breathing and his heart stopped beating, along with my 2 brothers, and mom. We were holding him, telling him it was OK for him to let go and we loved him. 2 of our spouses were also in the room. None of us felt his soul go when his body quit.
So, whether it had already departed, we were being too loud, we didn't need to be told because we were there, something else happened, I don't know, but it doesn't always work. Besides the other 3 I've mentioned, I've lost other friends and family members, and did not feel them go. No idea if they didn't need to go by me, it didn't happen, I didn't sense it. But it's not consistent.
Quote: beachbumbabsI was there when my dad physically stopped breathing and his heart stopped beating, along with my 2 brothers, and mom. We were holding him, telling him it was OK for him to let go and we loved him. 2 of our spouses were also in the room. None of us felt his soul go when his body quit.
So, whether it had already departed, we were being too loud, we didn't need to be told because we were there, something else happened, I don't know, but it doesn't always work. Besides the other 3 I've mentioned, I've lost other friends and family members, and did not feel them go. No idea if they didn't need to go by me, it didn't happen, I didn't sense it. But it's not consistent.
Of course, BBB, you know I have been present at hundreds if not thousands of deaths during my career. I have had a host of different emotions; relief, sorrow, anger, disbelief...., and have never felt 'a soul go by'. I think the feeling of the 'soul going by' is something internal to you and your makeup, your psyche, and not something otherworldly. It is something you subconsciously want or need to feel. I am NOT denying you felt something. I am denying it is what you think it is.
If you believe it was a 'soul going by', where do you think it was going to?
Sorry Barbara, but, feeling somebody's soul go away is complete nonsense. All Supernatural stuff is complete nonsense.Quote: beachbumbabs
Quote: SOOPOOOf course, BBB, you know I have been present at hundreds if not thousands of deaths during my career. I have had a host of different emotions; relief, sorrow, anger, disbelief...., and have never felt 'a soul go by'. I think the feeling of the 'soul going by' is something internal to you and your makeup, your psyche, and not something otherworldly. It is something you subconsciously want or need to feel. I am NOT denying you felt something. I am denying it is what you think it is.
If you believe it was a 'soul going by', where do you think it was going to?
I don't know where they went. It wasn't up to me that they went by me - it was completely up to them. And it's not like they said anything or put a thought in my head. They just brushed me gently, and it was gone, but it was that particular person.
Yes, I know you have massive experience in this, and I respect that. If i had to count the people who might have chosen to go by me during my life, it would be a number around 100. I said, I have no objective proof possible, so it's useless to try and debate it. But if I hadn't felt it before, I wouldn't have recognized it when Perdition went by, and other people here know I told them he needed to be found.
Quote: AxelWolfSorry Barbara, but, feeling somebody's soul go away is complete nonsense. All Supernatural stuff is complete nonsense.
That's ok, Axelwolf, I don't need or expect you to believe me. The text and call records between me and him, and the others are still out there somewhere, but I started out talking about this knowing I wouldn't be believed, and that's fine.
Quote: AxelWolfSorry Barbara, but, feeling somebody's soul go away is complete nonsense. All Supernatural stuff is complete nonsense.
As I mentioned in another post, our very existence is unbelievable. Yet we exist. Seriously, our existence could be called "complete nonsense". It is. It's insane. Logically, there should be nothing.
Quote: AxelWolfI can. In the same way I can tell you that baccarat and roulette systems don't work.
I pity you.
Regarding BK, it's true there were times he would go dark, however, it was never sudden and for no reason, he would always tell people he was going dark are you not much what's going on so it makes sense. He was a very responsible person and when he had responsibilities it would actually be highly unusual for him to go dark and not respond. At that particular time there was plenty going on as soon as I knew that he hadn't responded to a couple of important things I feared the worst. Not only that we all knew he had some ongoing health issues he was working on, so this wasn't some type of mystery situation. Once you start adding up all those things I believe subconsciously you you would get that strange feeling, especially if somebody stopped communicating suddenly.Quote: beachbumbabsThat's ok, Axelwolf, I don't need or expect you to believe me. The text and call records between me and him, and the others are still out there somewhere, but I started out talking about this knowing I wouldn't be believed, and that's fine.
Once I knew his car was still parked outside his place and he wasn't communicating it further sunk in something was seriously wrong, but I remained hopeful his phone was just broken or he went to jail for some odd reason. Obviously it was still a shock seeing him in that condition( as I said before, I have had very few people that were close to me pass away). It actually took some time after that to realize this actually happened and I could never see him again.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm not going to say who, as I don't feel it's my place, but there's another remember here who has went missing and we believe the worst has happened. I'm thinking it might be about that time something publicly is said.
Quote: beachbumbabsI was there when my dad physically stopped breathing and his heart stopped beating, along with my 2 brothers, and mom. We were holding him, telling him it was OK for him to let go and we loved him. 2 of our spouses were also in the room. None of us felt his soul go when his body quit.
So, whether it had already departed, we were being too loud, we didn't need to be told because we were there, something else happened, I don't know, but it doesn't always work. Besides the other 3 I've mentioned, I've lost other friends and family members, and did not feel them go. No idea if they didn't need to go by me, it didn't happen, I didn't sense it. But it's not consistent.
I would consider myself athiest/agnostic and do not believe in any of this nonsense. BUT I have experienced weird things 2 times, 1 I believe I told on here before where I was in my livingroom alone and I heard what sounded like all of my hanging pots and pans falling to the ground. I ran in there and they were fine. Not moving or anything. No windows were open and no other explanation. Maybe I just imagined it but it was surely real in my head. I actually left my house and didn't come back in until girlfriend came home.
2nd one is part of this current discussion. I was in the hospice place while my grandma was dieing. I was sitting out in the living room type area. I was sitting there looking at my phone and I looked up and felt a weird sensation. about 90 seconds later a few people left the room crying. I knew right away she was gone and headed to the room. It was a really weird time and completely freaked me out. I have no explanation other than maybe a coincidence that I did that. maybe the feeling was a draft from the hallway at the right moment. Who knows.
Quote: bobbartopour very existence is unbelievable.
Why?
BBB, you are probably the best on this forum at using words to explain a complicated scenario. Can you even provide me with a definition of what a 'soul' is?
Quote: billryanI just don't see any advantage to such a person outing themselves. No one would believe them, and they'd be accused of cheating on every test. They'd be better off claiming they wrote a program that made them rich.
If I were psychic, I wouldn't work for the CIA (for the same reasons Good Will Hunting wouldn't) now, but I might have during the cold war to help stop the USSR.
There's a guy named Wim Hof who invented some breathing techniques and stuff. Supposedly, this guy, a middle aged man, climbed most of Everest in shorts and tennis shoes (he injured himself near the top). Ran a marathon in the desert with no water. He made lots of outrageous claims.
He opened himself to scrutiny and many were surprised to learn that his claims are basically true. His techniques boost the immune system and stuff like that.
Anyway, I think people are open if there is evidence. That was kind of my point about the CIA. Also, police departments have given psyics a try many times. Usually, it turns out to be some ghoul who has no problem interfering in the search for a missing child and giving a family false hope.
The older I get the less I know. Particularly with quantum physics and this stuff about consciousness being a part of the universe. The possibility that we are a simulation and all that stuff. It's way over my head.
Yes, the more outlandish the claim, the more evidence is needed. But if a bunch of scientists had conducted different studies and were absolutely convinced that the subjects had some psychic abilities, I would accept that it's probably true. Maybe they can read the consciousness that is part of the universe somehow, or whatever.
I don't know of that happening, though. I know of many being debunked.
Quote: AxelWolf, I have had very few people that were close to me pass away). It actually took some time after that to realize this actually happened and I could never see him again.
I must be the luckiest person in the world. I am 53 years old and I have never had anyone close to me die. I will probably be the biggest wreck when it finally does happen.
Quote: DRichI must be the luckiest person in the world. I am 53 years old and I have never had anyone close to me die. I will probably be the biggest wreck when it finally does happen.
What about your grandparents?
Quote: AxelWolfWhat about your grandparents?
Never really knew them. They lived in different states and we might only see them every three years or so.
Just like my kids have only met my parents probably three or four times and they are adults now. My parents still haven't met my granddaughter,
I am a scientist and a hobby-level mathematician and I am much closer to BBB than to Axel in my beliefs.
I could write thousands of words on why I believe a universe with sentient living systems (yes, including dogs and other cognitive life forms) cannot be fully described by the laws of physics. But this thread is not the place to wear people out with that discussion.
Quote: SOOPOOBBB, there are some who treat their pets like family members. Do animals other than humans have 'souls'? When does a 'soul' start? At conception? Birth? Age 4? Age 21?
BBB, you are probably the best on this forum at using words to explain a complicated scenario. Can you even provide me with a definition of what a 'soul' is?
Hmmm. Maybe a small start on it. Nothing close to comprehensive or definitive.
Soul is closely aligned with self-awareness. Humans know they are alive, they have memories, emotions, inspiration, learning. Their DNA is not imprinted with learned behavior.
Instinctual behavior is not part of the soul. It's part of the mechanisms of life and survival. Relflexing away from heat, light, or pain. Eating and drinking when food is present in the environment. Avoiding poisonous substances, as birds do, based on sight, smell, or taste, without having to sample them. Breathing, heartbeating, and other sub-cortextual functions. Even single-cell organisms exhibit all of this, and I would argue they are soulless. Somewhere between that reflexive life and homo sapiens, a soul becomes possible.
Drawing the line there, human babies are born with the potential to develop a soul. Nearly all of them do, as they move from blind suckling and sleep to evaluating and manipulating their environment. Most mammals do as well. (I'm not given to absolutes, but I can't think of a mammal that doesn't.)
Lower orders of mammals (please excuse any misuse of labeling family vs. Order vs. Species etc.) depend more fully on instinctual behavior than learned, like Pack or Flock behavior, but they still have a self-awareness, develop special relationships, learn and teach, communicate, mourn, and play. Those latter are reflections of a soul, and unique to each individual creature.
That soul has no mass; it is ephemeral. But it has written every love song ever sung, created every idea manifested by hands or teams, generated every known way each of us communicates outside of our own head. I think it exists in a non-physical plane, and so does not necessarily cease when the physical host does.
It might. No question that it may perish with the host that nursed and sustained it. It might be nothing more than electrical impulses that simply stop firing with death. But it might not.
Quote: beachbumbabsHmmm. Maybe a small start on it. Nothing close to comprehensive or definitive.
Soul is closely aligned with self-awareness. Humans know they are alive, they have memories, emotions, inspiration, learning. Their DNA is not imprinted with learned behavior.
Instinctual behavior is not part of the soul. It's part of the mechanisms of life and survival. Relflexing away from heat, light, or pain. Eating and drinking when food is present in the environment. Avoiding poisonous substances, as birds do, based on sight, smell, or taste, without having to sample them. Breathing, heartbeating, and other sub-cortextual functions. Even single-cell organisms exhibit all of this, and I would argue they are soulless. Somewhere between that reflexive life and homo sapiens, a soul becomes possible.
Drawing the line there, human babies are born with the potential to develop a soul. Nearly all of them do, as they move from blind suckling and sleep to evaluating and manipulating their environment. Most mammals do as well. (I'm not given to absolutes, but I can't think of a mammal that doesn't.)
Lower orders of mammals (please excuse any misuse of labeling family vs. Order vs. Species etc.) depend more fully on instinctual behavior than learned, like Pack or Flock behavior, but they still have a self-awareness, develop special relationships, learn and teach, communicate, mourn, and play. Those latter are reflections of a soul, and unique to each individual creature.
That soul has no mass; it is ephemeral. But it has written every love song ever sung, created every idea manifested by hands or teams, generated every known way each of us communicates outside of our own head. I think it exists in a non-physical plane, and so does not necessarily cease when the physical host does.
It might. No question that it may perish with the host that nursed and sustained it. It might be nothing more than electrical impulses that simply stop firing with death. But it might not.
Wow. Thank you for that great answer! I like the 'self awareness' part. It allows you to include Fido while excluding an 8 cell embryo.
Quote: gordonm888
I could write thousands of words on why I believe a universe with sentient living systems (yes, including dogs and other cognitive life forms) cannot be fully described by the laws of physics. But this thread is not the place to wear people out with that discussion.
I don’t consider any of big unanswered questions, as necessarily outside physics, but more that our understanding of physics is still incomplete.
Or perhaps I view it like many puzzles, where you can fit many parts together the wrong way and keep getting different results that are workable up to a point.
Quote: SOOPOOWow. Thank you for that great answer! I like the 'self awareness' part. It allows you to include Fido while excluding an 8 cell embryo.
The old Bob Bartop would ask about 16 cell embryos. But I know better now. I don't want to get suspended. Forget I mentioned it.
Quote: beachbumbabs
Soul is closely aligned with self-awareness. Humans know they are alive, they have memories, emotions, inspiration, learning. Their DNA is not imprinted with learned behavior.
I'm not trying to make a point, I don't have a point. I'm really just kinda thinking to myself, in writing. What separates a "soul" that goes on to become a GREAT man in history and all the characteristics he must have, from a regular "soul" who goes on just to be another average man? DNA? Learned behavior? Something else?
Well you're just too easy.Quote: SOOPOOI like the 'self awareness' part..
So I guess a super retarded person who wasn't self-aware wouldn't have a soul.
Quote: billryanAbsence of proof isn't proof of absence.
If you had special abilities, would you use them to help the CIA?
Take your typical 40 year old male and then compare their abilities to Scott Steiner or LeBron James.
An average human male is about 5'8", but many men are a third taller. Some men can run 30% faster than average. A few humans have IQs fifty percent higher than average.Others seem to have lifespans much longer than normal. Why is it impossible for some to sense things the rest of us can't? Science tells us some animals see parts of the spectrum that humans can't.
The man who played The Mountain on Game of Thrones recently won The World's Strongest Man competition and routinely beats three to five men in a tug of war. If different people possess such diverse physical abilities, who can say it's impossible that diverse mental abilities exist.
The things Usain Bolt, Hafthor Bjornsson, and LeBron James do are observable and measurable, and generally repeatable. There are definitely diverse mental abilities. And there are people at the highest level who subject themselves to that same criteria as the athletes: James Holtzhauer, Magnus Carlsen, the guy who can solve a rubicks cube blindfolded in six seconds.
Quote: billryanAbsence of proof isn't proof of absence.
It goes a lot deeper than merely absence of proof. It is the extreme lengths psychics go to to avoid exposing themselves to the same conditions everyone else with any sort of ability is willing to subject themselves to. And that is very strong evidence against any psychic ability.
“There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
Quote: AxelWolfWell you're just too easy.
So I guess a super retarded person who wasn't self-aware wouldn't have a soul.
Drawing lines again.
There are a few human babies born every year who are technically alive, but have no brain function beyond the medulla, which is a lump of prehistoric nerves at the top of the spinal cord. They are not thinking beings. They can't communicate. They breathe, their heart beats, they look for moisture and food by moving their lips, they poop. End of brain functions. Their bodies might mature, but there's nobody in there - no detectable activity . As far as I'm concerned, they have no soul. They're just an organism, like an amoeba.
My oldest brother was one. He was damaged during birth, his brain destroyed. He died at 3 days. Just a fact, not meant to quash discussion. But it's part of why I've thought about it some. Oddly enough, tomorrow is his birthday.
Severely retarded, if they have some voluntary brain function, they probably have a soul.
Quote: TomGThe things Usain Bolt, Hafthor Bjornsson, and LeBron James do are observable and measurable, and generally repeatable. There are definitely diverse mental abilities. And there are people at the highest level who subject themselves to that same criteria as the athletes: James Holtzhauer, Magnus Carlsen, the guy who can solve a rubicks cube blindfolded in six seconds.
It goes a lot deeper than merely absence of proof. It is the extreme lengths psychics go to to avoid exposing themselves to the same conditions everyone else with any sort of ability is willing to subject themselves to. And that is very strong evidence against any psychic ability.
To me, it proves that those people are fakes. If you could read minds or tell the future, would you be an entertainer or work for the CIA ?
Personally, I could think of many other ways I'd use the talent.
There have been many books written and religions created that revolve around the existence of the soul. There may be a few, I'm not sure, written by a doctor that experienced nothing during a NDE but I would bet there are more that were converted by a NDE.
I have physically been present during a few deaths and definitely believe that something leaves the body. Witnessing death in a controlled quiet environment vs. a chaotic non-controlled environment will definitely have a different effect on the living and present a totally different perception.
Quote: MaxPenWitnessing death in a controlled quiet environment vs. a chaotic non-controlled environment will definitely have a different effect on the living and present a totally different perception.
Will you allow us to kill you in a quiet controlled environment so we can try to prove your hypothesis
Quote: DRichWill you allow us to kill you in a quiet controlled environment so we can try to prove your hypothesis
Quote: MaxPenThere is not definitive proof either way. I prefer to stay on the side of believing that there is most likely something on the other side until someone fully explains how to kill consciousness.
There have been many books written and religions created that revolve around the existence of the soul. There may be a few, I'm not sure, written by a doctor that experienced nothing during a NDE but I would bet there are more that were converted by a NDE.
I have physically been present during a few deaths and definitely believe that something leaves the body. Witnessing death in a controlled quiet environment vs. a chaotic non-controlled environment will definitely have a different effect on the living and present a totally different perception.
I know someone who knew when his sibling passed away on the way to the hospital. A friend was driving him. He said slow down. He knew that he was already gone. They checked the time and it matched.
Another sibling was conversating with her brother mentally. Later, she was informed that he passed away.
Quote: MaxPenThere is not definitive proof either way. I prefer to stay on the side of believing that there is most likely something on the other side until someone fully explains how to kill consciousness.
There have been many books written and religions created that revolve around the existence of the soul. There may be a few, I'm not sure, written by a doctor that experienced nothing during a NDE but I would bet there are more that were converted by a NDE.
I have physically been present during a few deaths and definitely believe that something leaves the body. Witnessing death in a controlled quiet environment vs. a chaotic non-controlled environment will definitely have a different effect on the living and present a totally different perception.
This is the most well-known recent book, written by a neurosurgeon who was converted by his own NDE.
https://www.amazon.com/Proof-Heaven-Neurosurgeons-Journey-Afterlife/dp/1451695195
This is the classic one, written by a doctor 40 years ago (who has written several more on the topic), who interviewed more than 100 people who were clinically dead, and were revived.
https://www.amazon.com/Life-After-Bestselling-Investigation-Experiences/dp/006242890X
Here's a huge database of NDE experiences, of over 4600 interviews over the last 20 years.
https://www.nderf.org/
Quote: gordonm888
I could write thousands of words on why I believe a universe with sentient living systems (yes, including dogs and other cognitive life forms) cannot be fully described by the laws of physics. But this thread is not the place to wear people out with that discussion.
I'd be interested in your thoughts here.
This is an example of how the lowest minorities set the standard. Cops didnt make cases for these. Now gang member are feeling free.
I donated four times to the cop widow fund 10 years ago. That is the last time i will donate to any police program.
They sent 3 warrant notices. My cop associate said that they have to be counterfeit. Then he said that they are administrative mistakes. A civilian said i must owe money to city for tickets. I have a clean record for 5 years. Rarely a ticket and if i do i take defensive driving.
Im beginning to realize that there was nothing i could have done to prevent this.
Theres more cop corruption stories im not willing to go into here
Quote: jjjooogggI know someone who knew when his sibling passed away on the way to the hospital. A friend was driving him. He said slow down. He knew that he was already gone. They checked the time and it matched.
Another sibling was conversating with her brother mentally. Later, she was informed that he passed away.
And I was with a patient close to death. His sibling arrived and rushed in and said "I was sure he was dead. I am glad I made it here to be with him for his last moments."
For some reason that event, which probably happens thousands of times every day, doesn't make the news......
Quote: SOOPOOAnd I was with a patient close to death. His sibling arrived and rushed in and said "I was sure he was dead. I am glad I made it here to be with him for his last moments."
For some reason that event, which probably happens thousands of times every day, doesn't make the news......
People dont want to be judged by ppl. In the news. A Majority already believe in life after death.
My source is good. I cant tell to much to break confidentiality.
Quote: beachbumbabsThis is the most well-known recent book, written by a neurosurgeon who was converted by his own NDE.
https://www.amazon.com/Proof-Heaven-Neurosurgeons-Journey-Afterlife/dp/1451695195
If you go into the afterlife, you need to bring back the knowledge of several items of convincing evidence. Show me locations of lost items. Where things are buried with no marking.
I need several items of proof that can’t be found by researchers for me to be convinced. Can you tell me anything that is actually almost impossible to know by anyone?
Quote: rxwineIf you go into the afterlife, you need to bring back the knowledge of several items of convincing evidence. Show me locations of lost items. Where things are buried with no marking.
I need several items of proof that can’t be found by researchers for me to be convinced. Can you tell me anything that is actually almost impossible to know by anyone?
Why do you think people would gain knowledge after they died? If I didn't know where your grandma's lost diamond was when I was alive, how would I know it in a brief journey to the other side.
Quote: billryanSo some crooks in Russia were charging migrants to be escorted over the border into Finland. Same thing happens here, and almost everywhere else. But these guys went so far as to set up a fake Finnish border some fifteen miles from the real one. Refugees were "smuggled" across the fake frontier and told their journey was over, that they were safe in Finland while they were still in Russia.
Brilliant
Quote: billryanWhy do you think people would gain knowledge after they died? If I didn't know where your grandma's lost diamond was when I was alive, how would I know it in a brief journey to the other side.
So what would you propose instead for convincing a skeptic that near death experiences allow you to see an afterlife?
They’ve tried putting messages on a high cabinet in operating rooms to see if anyone claiming to be floating above their body saw it.
Quote: rxwineSo what would you propose instead for convincing a skeptic that near death experiences allow you to see an afterlife?
A good start would be coming back from the afterlife with previously unknown information.
Like, if someone died, their soul or whatever went to the afterlife and had a brief chat with a sailor who died and was told, "our ship went down at these coordinates. My body can be found in the wreckage in this room. I was wearing these clothes and had these items in a lock box under my bunk."
Then the person comes back to life and relays all that information, and someone goes to those coordinates and finds everything exactly as described. That would be spooky.
Quote: TigerWuA good start would be coming back from the afterlife with previously unknown information.
Like, if someone died, their soul or whatever went to the afterlife and had a brief chat with a sailor who died and was told, "our ship went down at these coordinates. My body can be found in the wreckage in this room. I was wearing these clothes and had these items in a lock box under my bunk."
Then the person comes back to life and relays all that information, and someone goes to those coordinates and finds everything exactly as described. That would be spooky.
There was a story a man floated above the hospital saw shoes on the roof. The shoes were there. He watched his operation.
Another very young boy recounted his past life. And it was confirmed
link please, I bet you there's a logical explanation.Quote: jjjooogggThere was a story a man floated above the hospital saw shoes on the roof. The shoes were there. He watched his operation.
Another very young boy recounted his past life. And it was confirmed
https://youtu.be/WPXK2Ls-xzQ
There was another story where the shoe was on the roof
Now i need to go buy stuff at home depot goodnight
"At 18 months old, his father, Bruce Leininger, took James to the Kavanaugh Flight Museum in Dallas, Texas, where the toddler remained transfixed by World War II aircraft.Quote: jjjoooggghttps://youtu.be/VnXxC-nVsJY
https://youtu.be/WPXK2Ls-xzQ
There was another story where the shoe was on the roof
Now i need to go buy stuff at home depot goodnight
A few months later, the nightmares began."
The parents conveniently withheld this information.
The parents wrote a book and that highly suggest suggest Financial motive.
The people reporting this a financial incentive and the ratings department especially since this kind of stuff usually gets a lot of traction.
There is an entire page debunking this nonsense.
https://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation_a.html.
The fact is, there's a lot of gullible people out there believe anything they're told and don't ever use any logic. I'm not calling you gullible or lacking logic I'm just explaining why these stories blow up so much.
I'm not going to go into the shoe thing, cuz that's even more silly.
Quote: rxwineSo what would you propose instead for convincing a skeptic that near death experiences allow you to see an afterlife?
They’ve tried putting messages on a high cabinet in operating rooms to see if anyone claiming to be floating above their body saw it.
If I died and somehow came back with a second chance at life, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't waste a precious second of it trying to convince doubters of anything.
