Vegas 2047 Pinball - G2E 2014

Quote: Ahigh

It is an issue that we want to correct. You recommended Mark Nicely to me, and he understands the model fully, as does Noah and the other math guys at GLI.

I truly wish to understand the game correctly. I know you're tired from the show I but would suggest either:

1. Write something yourself addressing the relationship between skill and return of the game.
2. Let me talk to Mark about it and then I'll say/publish what I take away from that conversation.

Quote: Zcore13

Ok, so I've been playing poker since 1988. I've averaged a few thousand in income every year playing for fun. At While at G2E I played in a $70 buy in with 53 players and won $600. I've played thousands and thousands of hours of poker. The game will not work out for you.

ZCore13

Z, I believe you know you stuff far better than I do based on your experience, but to say flat out that this will not work is opinion, not fact. I wasnt there and only watched the videos, but I liked what I saw and like the idea of something new for players instead of 50 new licensed slot machines of old TV shows and movies.

I am sure Aaron and team will have to make some adjustments and are looking for feedback to do just that, But to just say out of hand that this will fail is unfair in my opinion.

As a casino management member, I would think you also would be willing to at least look at anything that would make your casino money. Or is there a bias that will not allow you to even consider this game?

Quote: Ahigh

Wow. That's just really rude. You need to stop this.

I'm totally confused now. You're claiming
an AP can get the advantage on your
machine and win more than they lose
consistently. Or am I also not understanding
you.

If an AP can do this, what casino in their
right mind would want such a machine on
their floor.

Quote: Boz

Z, I believe you know you stuff far better than I do based on your experience, but to say flat out that this will not work is opinion, not fact. I wasnt there and only watched the videos, but I liked what I saw and like the idea of something new for players instead of 50 new licensed slot machines of old TV shows and movies.

I am sure Aaron and team will have to make some adjustments and are looking for feedback to do just that, But to just say out of hand that this will fail is unfair in my opinion.

As a casino management member, I would think you also would be willing to at least look at anything that would make your casino money. Or is there a bias that will not allow you to even consider this game?

Of course it's an opinion. Pretty much everything on a forum is an opinion unless there are some stats or proof to back it up.

It's an opinion based on my experience in gaming. I have told many people I don't think their game will work. Some agree after I explain why I think that and some disagree. There will be a game at Raving this year that I told the inventor I didn't think it would ever work the way the game was. I explained why and he said he agreed and needed to make some changes. I look at lots of games. Even ones that don't sound so great on first glance. I look at it from a players point of view first and then a Casino view next. The players point of view is the most important.

As I mentioned, Aaron would be better served listening to criticism and asking for details on the feedback, not wining about posts being negative or rude. I said it was a good game but would not work as it stands now and I stand by that based on my experience. I've seen games make changes and work out that I don't think would have otherwise.


ZCore13

Quote: Boz

Z, I believe you know you stuff far better than I do based on your experience, but to say flat out that this will not work is opinion, not fact. I wasnt there and only watched the videos, but I liked what I saw and like the idea of something new for players instead of 50 new licensed slot machines of old TV shows and movies.

I am sure Aaron and team will have to make some adjustments and are looking for feedback to do just that, But to just say out of hand that this will fail is unfair in my opinion.

As a casino management member, I would think you also would be willing to at least look at anything that would make your casino money. Or is there a bias that will not allow you to even consider this game?

I agree. I haven't seen it live but have watched the videos and I am definitely interested.
Not enough fun gambling games in my opinion.
I love games. Played all kinds of games my whole life. Board games, video games, pinball games, card games, computer games, sports which are games, ect.
My current favorite is a computer game Civilization 5 Brave New World.
All these games I simply play for fun. No money or gambling involved.
Now I gamble when in vegas but not to win money, just to play games. Having a little money at stake adds to the gaming excitement. That's why I am a low roller, just willing to pay a low price just to play the games I like and have some fun.
Now even though having money at stake adds to excitement, ,most gambling games overall in Vegas are BORING.
When I play a game, I want to think about strategy and try to adjust my play due to strategy. To me that is the fun part of a game.
I want an active part in helping determining the outcome. Making decisions based on strategy or aiming a pinball, that's fun.
I dislike any mindless games where no strategy is involved like slots or bac.
I like live poker in a poker room, video poker, pai gow poker. A lot of strategy means to me fun. I want to think while playing.
Everything else I really have no interest because they all look BORING compared to non gambling games I have played my whole life.

I see Ahigh's pinball gambling and I think, wow this looks fun.
This is the kind of new stuff I want to see introduced at casinos.
I am tired of the old same old same old.
Thanks ahigh.

Quote: terapined

I see Ahigh's pinball gambling and I think, wow this looks fun.
This is the kind of new stuff I want to see introduced at casinos.
I am tired of the old same old same old.
Thanks ahigh.

Thanks buddy!

Quote: terapined

I agree. I haven't seen it live but have watched the videos and I am definitely interested.
Not enough fun gambling games in my opinion.
I love games. Played all kinds of games my whole life. Board games, video games, pinball games, card games, computer games, sports which are games, ect.
My current favorite is a computer game Civilization 5 Brave New World.
All these games I simply play for fun. No money or gambling involved.
Now I gamble when in vegas but not to win money, just to play games. Having a little money at stake adds to the gaming excitement. That's why I am a low roller, just willing to pay a low price just to play the games I like and have some fun.
Now even though having money at stake adds to excitement, ,most gambling games overall in Vegas are BORING.
When I play a game, I want to think about strategy and try to adjust my play due to strategy. To me that is the fun part of a game.
I want an active part in helping determining the outcome. Making decisions based on strategy or aiming a pinball, that's fun.
I dislike any mindless games where no strategy is involved like slots or bac.
I like live poker in a poker room, video poker, pai gow poker. A lot of strategy means to me fun. I want to think while playing.
Everything else I really have no interest because they all look BORING compared to non gambling games I have played my whole life.

I see Ahigh's pinball gambling and I think, wow this looks fun.
This is the kind of new stuff I want to see introduced at casinos.
I am tired of the old same old same old.
Thanks ahigh.

I agree with you completely, except for one thing. Are you going to play the pinball game for a minimum of $100 a game? That is a huge mistake in the release and marketing of the game as it is. How many games have you ever seen that are in a high limit room and not on the regular floor? I've never seen one. The regular floor is what pays the bills for the Casino.


ZCore13

I was figuring it's like a Ultimate X machine. At times it will have an advantage. Pinball replays work based on a value you have to reach to get that replay. Over time, it varies depending on the other players. So times, the replay will be within my reach, and other times, on the same machine, it will not be. My skill isn't good enough to get the replay.

I was figuring this is how this machine works. At some times, there will be a 101% EV reachable for a player, say. At others times, they can't get that high. That's my take away.

Having games that are for periods positive return for some skilled players (doesn't mickeycrimm make a living of that?) doesn't mean the game is positive for all players.

I like the idea. The actual game shown doesn't grab me... the pinball layout is a little bare, and the price point is not interesting at all. $5 a play, I'd try it. $100, no way. I can take the $100 to the pinball musuem, and my non-monetary EV will be far higher. Actually, thinking about it, I may just have to trip down to try to see how long $20 can last me in there....

But it's the same way pub quiz machines in the UK are popular. Many people think they can beat them, but only a few can regularly drop the top prizes out. I've seen Gem breaker machines in arcades with a similar slant. Play, and skillful play (with some luck) will generate more tickets than average pay.

Now, if we can get Settler's of Cataan and Carcassonne in the casino, I'm all ears.

Quote: terapined

I see Ahigh's pinball gambling and I think, wow this looks fun.
This is the kind of new stuff I want to see introduced at casinos.
I am tired of the old same old same old.
Thanks ahigh.

That was my thought, too, although I'm not commenting in detail as I can't yet wrap my head around the particulars. As always, I will just encourage Ahigh to put his riding leathers on if need be, and open himself to the criticism.

(@terapined Civ: Beyond Earth)

Quote: Face

That was my thought, too, although I'm not commenting in detail as I can't yet wrap my head around the particulars. As always, I will just encourage Ahigh to put his riding leathers on if need be, and open himself to the criticism.

(@terapined Civ: Beyond Earth)

Thanks for the Civ Beyond Earth link. Good read. I only knew it was coming out and now after reading , pretty psyched.
Got all the versions :-) Game is a total time suck though, 8 hour session for me not unusual if I really get into it :-)

Quote: Zcore13

I agree with you completely, except for one thing. Are you going to play the pinball game for a minimum of $100 a game? That is a huge mistake in the release and marketing of the game as it is. How many games have you ever seen that are in a high limit room and not on the regular floor? I've never seen one. The regular floor is what pays the bills for the Casino.


ZCore13

Oh its absolutely priced high at 100.00. I'm priced out :-( But still interested.
Its only version 1.
This thing gets hot, they'll roll out the low roller machines for me.

edit
Meant a frown after priced out. , just changed it.

Quote: terapined

Oh its absolutely priced high at 100.00. I'm priced out :-) But still interested.
Its only version 1.
This thing gets hot, they'll roll out the low roller machines for me.

Haha. That's probably true. Rumor is your picture will be coded into the game as an Easter Egg.

ZCore13

Quote: terapined

Oh its absolutely priced high at 100.00. I'm priced out

I'm not understanding why it's priced
so high. You already alienated the
majority of machine players, women.
By making it $100, you've eliminated
the majority of men players. Who's
left, not many. Make it $5 and you
will get some players initially, and
if they can win some money, they
might be back. As it sits right now
it's just a curiosity that I'd play if
it was free.

I'll say it again, women do not like
machine games that require skill.
When we had PacMan in the bar
it was all men playing. Then we
got Ms PacMan to attract women,
and it was still all men. Space
Invaders ditto. Women are intimidated
by skill games, they won't play them.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm not understanding why it's priced
so high. You already alienated the
majority of machine players, women.
By making it $100, you've eliminated
the majority of men players. Who's
left, not many. Make it $5 and you
will get some players initially, and
if they can win some money, they
might be back. As it sits right now
it's just a curiosity that I'd play if
it was free.

I'll say it again, women do not like
machine games that require skill.
When we had PacMan in the bar
it was all men playing. Then we
got Ms PacMan to attract women,
and it was still all men. Space
Invaders ditto. Women are intimidated
by skill games, they won't play them.

Hmm women wont play it so the machine wont make it.
Gee Bob, check out a poker room lately. Some games do just fine with a few women.

Quote: terapined

Quote: Face

That was my thought, too, although I'm not commenting in detail as I can't yet wrap my head around the particulars. As always, I will just encourage Ahigh to put his riding leathers on if need be, and open himself to the criticism.

(@terapined Civ: Beyond Earth)

Thanks for the Civ Beyond Earth link. Good read. I only knew it was coming out and now after reading , pretty psyched.
Got all the versions :-) Game is a total time suck though, 8 hour session for me not unusual if I really get into it :-)

I had 12 hour stretches on civ3 and 4. I used to put together complex alliances and became the world bank so the ai would always be indebted to me to fund their world wars. Of course as a side was starting to lose I'd land grab their territory. Fun times :)

Quote: terapined

Hmm women wont play it so the machine wont make it.
.

That's about it. Women have never taken to
pinball, they don't like those kind of games.
Some will play, but most find it boring. You
have to have a competitive nature and women
do not have that.

When then casino machine players are about 80%
women and you've just alienated that whole
demo, what chance does your game have.

So on Wednesday night at the WoV dinner I was kicking myself because I was so busy at the big boys table game booths (eg Galaxy, Bally, AGS, DEQ, TCS Huxley) that I didn't make it to Ahigh's booth and I really wanted to play the pinball game. I flew out Thursday AM so couldn't get there on the last day. So, let's first establish that I have no first hand knowledge of game play.

I know Axel was impressed as were others at the gathering with the quality of the game and the uniqueness of the game.

That being said and having read the thread posts made after the show, I have one question:

1) Suppose that the only individual that played the game for the 12 hours is was powered on each day (humor me and let's assume the game is only available for play from 10AM to 10PM) was the best pinball player in the world. Would that top pinball player be able to sit at the machine for 12 hours and play well enough to gain a consistent player advantage?

I think the answer is yes based on the video.

I originally thought the expert player would only be able to drive the house edge from 10% down to 1% with excellent play, but I think the answer is he/she could consistently drive the house edge to a negative number, that is a net player advantage (e.g. excellent pinball play drives the HE at the start of the game from 10% to -2% with excellent play).

If really good players can consistently gain a player advantage through superior play, isn't the casino exposed to losses if these types of players are the only ones playing the game? I may not be understanding the concept totally, but that is the big question for me.

All that being said, I am ready for Aaron's game to be available to simply play for fun picking any of over 200 programmed pinball games from the past.....must include Space Invaders, Pinbot, Xenon & Playboy. If that was available just off the casino floor, I would save my last $20-$40 of bankroll on a bad night of gambling and drop it in the game and kill time.....the graphics and game play look fantastic!

Quote: Paradigm

If really good players can consistently gain a player advantage through superior play, isn't the casino exposed to losses if these types of players are the only ones playing the game?

Bingo. And once word got out that it
could be beaten, winning AP's would
be the only ones playing till the casino
shut it down.

From some of Ahigh's earlier postings, I got the impression that the good playing 'AP' is essentially playing against the previous best scores. So, this would mean that they are thus competing against their own best scores, which would keep them from being able to be the best EVERY time. So the game becomes self leveling. The AP can come in and win, but it is going to get increasingly harder for the AP to be able to have the best scores, and continue getting the advantage.
And, you still have the fact that the player could have the maximum score, and the random spinner can still make it a losing game. So no matter how good the player was at pinball, they can still lose.

If I have the above correct, what I don't understand is how does the game reset to a lower level of play? If there is no type of reset, the game would eventually become impossible to gain an advantage. Much like the old PacMan and Space Invaders, where the only way to post a new hi score was to unplug the machine and reset the hi score list.

I look forward to Ahigh confirming, or more likely, correcting what I have written here.

It does look like a neat game, and one I would probably play, but then again, I used to play pinball daily in the 70's.

Quote: Paradigm

So on Wednesday night at the WoV dinner I was kicking myself because I was so busy at the big boys table game booths (eg Galaxy, Bally, AGS, DEQ, TCS Huxley) that I didn't make it to Ahigh's booth and I really wanted to play the pinball game. I flew out Thursday AM so couldn't get there on the last day. So, let's first establish that I have no first hand knowledge of game play.

I know Axel was impressed as were others at the gathering with the quality of the game and the uniqueness of the game.

That being said and having read the thread posts made after the show, I have one question:

1) Suppose that the only individual that played the game for the 12 hours is was powered on each day (humor me and let's assume the game is only available for play from 10AM to 10PM) was the best pinball player in the world. Would that top pinball player be able to sit at the machine for 12 hours and play well enough to gain a consistent player advantage?

I think the answer is yes based on the video.

I originally thought the expert player would only be able to drive the house edge from 10% down to 1% with excellent play, but I think the answer is he/she could consistently drive the house edge to a negative number, that is a net player advantage (e.g. excellent pinball play drives the HE at the start of the game from 10% to -2% with excellent play).

If really good players can consistently gain a player advantage through superior play, isn't the casino exposed to losses if these types of players are the only ones playing the game? I may not be understanding the concept totally, but that is the big question for me.

All that being said, I am ready for Aaron's game to be available to simply play for fun picking any of over 200 programmed pinball games from the past.....must include Space Invaders, Pinbot, Xenon & Playboy. If that was available just off the casino floor, I would save my last $20-$40 of bankroll on a bad night of gambling and drop it in the game and kill time.....the graphics and game play look fantastic!

I'd buy one if it could do that. Black Night, Fun house, Terminator, etc etc. Played them and many more for hours and hours.

That's the thing... there's a list of things that make it attractive to gamers, but very few at this point that make it attractive to a casino. I'd pay $500 to have one in my house with classic pinball games on it or downloadable for a small cost. Am I or 95% of gamblers going g to play %100 to try it in a Casino? Not likely. People build up yo playing higher dollars by playing at smaller amounts. The $100 minimum is the first thing that must change for it to even have a shot.


ZCore13

Quote: RaleighCraps

From some of Ahigh's earlier postings, I got the impression that the good playing 'AP' is essentially playing against the previous best scores. So, this would mean that they are thus competing against their own best scores, which would keep them from being able to be the best EVERY time. So the game becomes self leveling. The AP can come in and win, but it is going to get increasingly harder for the AP to be able to have the best scores, and continue getting the advantage.
And, you still have the fact that the player could have the maximum score, and the random spinner can still make it a losing game. So no matter how good the player was at pinball, they can still lose.

I thought old pinball machines set the replay level based on a rolling average of the previous games.

Quote:

If I have the above correct, what I don't understand is how does the game reset to a lower level of play? If there is no type of reset, the game would eventually become impossible to gain an advantage. Much like the old PacMan and Space Invaders, where the only way to post a new hi score was to unplug the machine and reset the hi score list.

Only if it's high score driven. Not if it's driven by beating the last X players.

By having a rolling average, you could have it be +EV for a good players for a period, but then too hard to beat once they drained. They go away and come back again when the level drops. Much like AP slots players do.

I am making a supposition here, of course. Say 'score in the 90th percentile for the last 100 plays, get an advantage'. That could work, given a maximum possible skill level (or score, or at least something where it becomes vanishingly small numbers of plays that can get to that level). AHigh has dropped hints about poker play already. The great players win from the average and poor. The Good players just pay less.

He's also dropped hints when he was talking about the idea of arcade games being rental... the better you got, the less you paid in rent, because you got to play for longer.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm not understanding why it's priced
so high. You already alienated the
majority of machine players, women.
By making it $100, you've eliminated
the majority of men players. Who's
left, not many. Make it $5 and you
will get some players initially, and
if they can win some money, they
might be back. As it sits right now
it's just a curiosity that I'd play if
it was free.

I'll say it again, women do not like
machine games that require skill.
When we had PacMan in the bar
it was all men playing. Then we
got Ms PacMan to attract women,
and it was still all men. Space
Invaders ditto. Women are intimidated
by skill games, they won't play them.

Angry birds is a skill game and women love it along with others like it. A new generation is gambling.

I think that the pinball can be set to auto play that may take out the intimidation factor.


The way the game it set up, you can adjust bets and odds of winning, so a big bet is not risky, you can have it set up so you win 99% of the time or the opposite. Its like betting live keno, you can bet a 1 spot or a 10 spot for whatever amount you want. I have yet to see a slot that gives you this much control.

Quote: thecesspit

I thought old pinball machines set the replay level based on a rolling average of the previous games.

Older ones - in the days before electronic displays - have pre-set replay levels. They might be operator-settable, but I think most of them came with the numbers pre-set by the manufacturer. Remember, this was in the days before ICs.

I don't remember seeing any machine where the replay level goes down, except that it would go up immediately after somebody won a game through points, then go back down to its previous level after a loss.

If Bob Stupak was still alive and still in the casino game, He'd be all over this pinball thing.
Instead we have a bunch of MBA's running casinos with no imagination and cant think outside the box.
There are a ton of potential casino customers out there that love playing games of various forms that look at casino offerings and think boring just like me. I'll be in town next week and will probably check out the chess tournament at Planet Hollywood. How do you think those players think of the games offered in the casino.
With a lot of machines including many variations of VP and Keno, why not have hundreds of games to pick from, some that may intrigue a chess player to play.
Their are a gazillion games out there that combine luck and strategy throughout human history. Many can be adapted to factor in gambling with a slight casino edge while still including a strategy and luck factor.
With technology today and the vast wide history of favorite non-gambling games the public has played, I'm surprised that year after year, nothing unique or fun gets put on a casino floor.
I'm rooting for you Ahigh.

I believe they are looking at this as some kind of high limit baccarat table. I wonder if they want a % of the winnings? I can't imagine they thought they were going to sell this game in mass quantities. They only need to sell a few if they can charge enough rent or get a cut of the win.

I'd get a list of Whales and show them the game, then get the Whales to demand the casinos install one. I bet that would get the casinos attention really quick.

Quote: Ahigh

If you define exposure as the chance for a game to pay out more than it has taken in, you might have a valid argument.

So this means your game can be beaten by
an AP and he can make a profit? Can you
be more clear about this. When are you
going to explain why Mike was wrong on the
radio show.

I think they should have made this a 3D SLOT machine with a pinball Bonus round first and foremost. Then added an option to play ONLY pinball if you chose to do so.

They need to change the way the betting is done, it will be confusing to the average Joe and even a pinball player. I assume this is not a touch screen so that may not be an easy task.

I sure hope they can find someone to manufacture the game so the public will get to dictate whether it is successful or not. My fear is that it is too radical for a major manufacturer to try.

https://ntek.com/gaming_products.php

The company has released some information about the details of some of the technology that was demonstrated at this year's G2E show.

I really do appreciate the support of the members on here. You have to realize that my time interacting with members on this forum is a large portion of the basis for motivation to offer high limit advantage play gambling. I will be doing multiple interviews to talk about the game in more detail, and I will post that info up here.

I hope everyone understands that addressing questions individually on this forum is important to me, but there are many people with the same questions who don't make there way over here. So I will keep this thread updated, and I apologize if I miss a question here or there as I am extremely busy!

I read the product description. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in plain simple English this game could be sold to both players and casinos as something akin to poker. Individual players can have a positive EV if their competition is sufficiently worse than their own level of play. Meanwhile, the game maker can assure a specified theoretical return to the casino.

Quote: Wizard

I read the product description. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in plain simple English this game could be sold to both players and casinos as something akin to poker. Individual players can have a positive EV if their competition is sufficiently worse than their own level of play. Meanwhile, the game maker can assure a specified theoretical return to the casino.

Yes. There are zero "pricing errors" in the game and the operator gets exactly the hold percentage that they select given enough time in operation. At any instant in time, the theoretical is never allowed to go into the player's favor for the total sum of all players on a particular game. So in the event that a machine is only played by a single player, it is not advantage playable in that case.

There is also a way for the player to smoothly adjust the effect of skill on the bet resolution from a game of pure chance up to having the largest possible effect as a result of skilled play on the resulting EV of the resolution.

The score history includes a weighted amount per each score that is affected by the effect of skill on the EV and the actual bet amount.

One additional effect is that fewer bets per unit wall-clock time gives opportunity to win for folks who just want to have a longer play experience without losing the volatility that occurs when you participate in too many wagering events. So someone who just wants to gamble can take whatever gamble they want (for example a single big bet) and get the best chance to win. Setting your risk and win amounts independently gives full control to the gambler who simply wants the best deal possible for their particular choice in how they want to bet based on chance and chance alone.

Quote: Ahigh

The score history includes a weighted amount per each score that is affected by the effect of skill on the EV and the actual bet amount.

I'm not understanding what part Mike got
wrong on the radio show. What you say
and what he said sound very close.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm not understanding what part Mike got
wrong on the radio show. What you say
and what he said sound very close.

Mike did not see the opportunity for professional AP. It's not possible to understand how it works and come to this conclusion.

It will take time for everyone to understand, and that's alright. When you do get it, I think you'll be excited, though, Bob.

I think its a mistake to keep hammering the fact that its an advantage play machine. As opposed to a fun game with great graphics with a possible advantage for a skilled player.

You might want to do some research on advantage play games where both the casino and the players had an advantage. Very few last long, even the profitable ones.

The following is a list of game I can remember off the top of my head. All these games had a built in HA and couldn't lose money from advantage play, but advantage players had an advantage when played correctly.

1. Flush Attack: Very fun profitable and popular, it did last a fairly long time at SOME casinos but the big casinos took them out quickly. Probably all gone now.
2. house a rocking (same concept ) fail
3. Max attack: (same concept ) fail
4. Clock Time VP 2 casinos Fail quickly.
5. Bonus Run: fun profitable FAIL (6 or 7 casinos)
6. Hurricane zone slots: fun, profitable and popular. Fail
7. X factor fail
8. hopping spree: fail
9. Break the bank AKA PIG machines, great new concept .Fail? Id say so.
10. IGT Vision machines AKA cherry pie, diamond mine, racing 7s and a long list of other versions at least 15. Not sure if i can say fail, but 99% are now gone. IGT pushed them on the market. Any other company would have failed quickly.
11. IGT Vision Super diamond mine: FAIL only a few casinos (1?)
12. Green Stamps: Fail
13. Bingo slots: all forms, 3 versions I know of. Fail.
14. Super Patriot: only 1 casino I know of Circus Circus Fail. ( should be 1 on the list)
15. Jewel machines: only seen at MGM Bellagio. Fail.
16. Net Pay Bellagio/beau rivage. Fail in months
17. Globe Shopping. Fail in months
18. Fist series of Linked Must hits at station casinos (not really a fail, but not a big winner)
19. Money Time: Fail.
20. Indiana Jones: Fail less than 2 years.
21. Odyssey: Had many AP games, however they just went away, not sure why. But, they were new unique and different great graphics.
22. Hot Reels: New unique, great concept, cross between multi line VP and slots. A few version were over 100% like FPDW that could have been easily changed
23. Maze slots: At Bellagio, Fail in months.
24. Black Out Video poker: Failed in months, 2 or 3 casinos.
25. ANCHOR GAMING: Entire system was customized (popular and fun for everyone) and attached to every machine in Mandalay Bay. It was entirely ripped out after a few months.

There's many more,(I'M sure Mickey C and others can name some) can I can't remember the names because the didn't last long or just forgot. Probably a few before my time.

Casinos won't even put in good progressive meters anymore.

Honorable mentions (not sure if it was AP'able) Checkers: "skill game" didn't last long
MGM put in a huge bank of machines with linked bonuses and a shared Video screen bonus mode. Fail.

Quote: Ahigh

When you do get it, I think you'll be excited, though, Bob.

Why, are you going to install one in his basement?

Quote: AxelWolf

I think its a mistake to keep hammering the fact that its an advantage play machine.

You might want to do some research on advantage play games where both the casino and the players had an advantage. Very few last long, even the profitable ones.

The following is a list of game I can remember off the top of my head. All these games had a built in HA and couldn't lose money from advantage play, but advantage players had an advantage when played correctly.

1. Flush Attack: Very fun profitable and popular, it did last a fairly long time at SOME casinos but the big casinos took them out quickly. Probably all gone now.
2. house a rocking (same concept ) fail
3. Max attack: (same concept ) fail
5. Bonus Run: fun profitable FAIL (6 or 7 casinos)
6. Hurricane zone: slots fun profitable and popular. Fail
7. X factor fail
8. hopping spree: fail
9. Break the bank AKA PIG machines, great new concept .Fail? Id say so.
10. IGT Vision machines AKA cherry pie, diamond mine, racing 7s and a long list of other versions at least 15. Not sure if i can say fail, but 99% are now gone. IGT pushed them on the market. Any other company would have failed quickly.
11. IGT Vision Super diamond mine: FAIL only a few casinos (1?)
12. Green Stamps: Fail
13. Bingo slots: all forms, 3 versions I know of. Fail.
14. Super Patriot only 1 casino I know of Circus Circus Fail. ( should be 1 on the list)
15. Jewel machines only seen at MGM Bellagio. Fail.
16. Net Pay Bellagio/beau rivage. Fail in months
17. Globe Shopping. Fail in months
18. Fist series of Linked Must hits at station casinos (not really a fail, but not a big winner)
19. Money Time Fail
20. Indiana Jones. Fail less than 2 years
21. Odyssey had many AP games, however they just went away, not sure why. But, they were new unique and different great graphics.
22. Hot Reels: New unique, great concept, cross between multi line VP and slots. A few version were over 100% like FPDW that could have been easily changed
23. Maze slots at Bellagio, Fail in months.
24. Black Out Video poker. Fail in months, 2 or 3 casinos.
25. ANCHOR GAMINGS entire system was customized and attached to every machine in Mandalay Bay. It was entirely ripped out after a few months.

There's many more,(I'M sure Mickey C and others can name some) can I can't remember the names because the didn't last long or just forgot. Probably a few before my time.

Casinos won't even put in good progressive meters anymore.

Honorable mentions (not sure if it was AP'able) Checkers: "skill game" didn't last long
MGM put in a huge bank of machines with linked bonuses and a shared Video screen bonus mode. Fail.

He won't listen. He's a video game designer not a casino game designer.

Player advantage for large bets - Fail
Minimum $100 bet limiting play base - Fail
Seemingly no interaction with Gaming people prior to release - Fail

There's more but too much negative opinions makss some people sad.

ZCore13

Quote: EvenBob

I'm not understanding what part Mike got
wrong on the radio show. What you say
and what he said sound very close.

Quote: Ahigh

At any instant in time, the theoretical is never allowed to go into the player's favor for the total sum of all players on a particular game.

On the radio I said the EV for a particular game can never go above 100%, which was incorrect. Ahigh was trying to say the above at the show but I must have misunderstood him and came away with that the EV is capped at 100%, or less, always.

Quote: Zcore13

Minimum $100 bet limiting play base - Fail

I do believe it can work with some adjustments

That can $100 min can be adjusted lower I assume.

you need to understand your $100 can be wagered in a way where you have a very small chance of losing. It's like betting a money line bet where there's a huge favorite.

Bet a lot with a high chance to win a little. Or bet a little and a small chance win a lot.

Im just saying he shouldn't lead with advantage plat game. I'd play that down.

Quote: AxelWolf

I do believe it can work with some adjustments

That can $100 min can be adjusted lower I assume.

you need to understand your $100 can be wagered in a way where you have a very small chance of losing. It's like betting a money line bet where there's a huge favorite.

Yes there is no doubt it can be lowered to offer the game to the masses. The question is will they?

A $100 wager to win $10 is of absolutely no interest to a high limit player.

ZCore13

Quote: Ahigh

It will take time for everyone to understand, and that's alright. .

So an AP can win more money than he
loses over time? What casino will tolerate
this. You're right, I don't get it.

How do you sell a casino on this idea that
they're putting in a machine they'll lose
money on.

Quote: Zcore13

Yes there is no doubt it can be lowered to offer the game to the masses. The question is will they?

A $100 wager to win $10 is of absolutely no interest to a high limit player.

ZCore13

You can bet $100 and set it to win more as well you will, just have less green on the final wheel.

It's player adjustable.

I would market to online casinos, no cabinet to mess with.

Quote: AxelWolf

you need to understand your $100 can be wagered in a way where you have a very small chance of losing..

So this means you can consistently win
and make money at this game? I keep
asking this and nobody will answer it
directly. If I can't make money as an
AP, show a profit, than this game offers
nothing to an advantage player. The
whole point is to make money, not lose
it.

Quote: EvenBob

So this means you can consistently win
and make money at this game? I keep
asking this and nobody will answer it
directly. If I can't make money as an
AP, show a profit, than this game offers
nothing to an advantage player. The
whole point is to make money, not lose
it.

It's my understanding NO. Not if you are skilled and play it 24/7. (If that's possible then they are in trouble)

I assume it takes a % of each game played and adds it to a bonus banking system that eventually gets depleted until built back up. Unless somehow it steals from future players % if its running negative.


Remember people have the money, skill, time and people to lock things up.

Quote: AxelWolf

It's my understanding NO. Not if you are skilled and play it 24/7.

Then how is this an AP machine? The definition
of AP is winning more than you lose in the long
run. Mike said on the radio AP's cannot beat it.
So he was right. If you can't make more than
you lose, you're wasting your time, go to an
arcade and play PB for a buck.

Quote: AxelWolf

It's my understanding NO. Not if you are skilled and play it 24/7.

I assume it takes a % of each game played and adds it to a bonus banking system. unless somehow it steals from future players % if its running negative.

I think it does use past play to adjust current chances. So I see two issues with that.

1. A very skilled player will play to just the point needed and then stop, allowing himself to beat his previous best each time thereafter. He never gets the best score he can because that would hurt future games.

2. Eventually after very good players play, regular players will have a lesser chance to win. Then after they lose a few times the skilled player will swoop in. Does the term culturing ring a bell? Many new versions of Ultimate X don't allow it anymore. Games at The Cosmopolitan reset after a certain time.

ZCore13

Quote: AxelWolf

I think its a mistake to keep hammering the fact that its an advantage play machine.

You might want to do some research on advantage play games where both the casino and the players had an advantage. Very few last long, even the profitable ones.

The following is a list of game I can remember off the top of my head. All these games had a built in HA and couldn't lose money from advantage play, but advantage players had an advantage when played correctly.

1. Flush Attack: Very fun profitable and popular, it did last a fairly long time at SOME casinos but the big casinos took them out quickly. Probably all gone now.
2. house a rocking (same concept ) fail
3. Max attack: (same concept ) fail
5. Bonus Run: fun profitable FAIL (6 or 7 casinos)
6. Hurricane zone: slots fun profitable and popular. Fail
7. X factor fail
8. hopping spree: fail
9. Break the bank AKA PIG machines, great new concept .Fail? Id say so.
10. IGT Vision machines AKA cherry pie, diamond mine, racing 7s and a long list of other versions at least 15. Not sure if i can say fail, but 99% are now gone. IGT pushed them on the market. Any other company would have failed quickly.
11. IGT Vision Super diamond mine: FAIL only a few casinos (1?)
12. Green Stamps: Fail
13. Bingo slots: all forms, 3 versions I know of. Fail.
14. Super Patriot only 1 casino I know of Circus Circus Fail. ( should be 1 on the list)
15. Jewel machines only seen at MGM Bellagio. Fail.
16. Net Pay Bellagio/beau rivage. Fail in months
17. Globe Shopping. Fail in months
18. Fist series of Linked Must hits at station casinos (not really a fail, but not a big winner)
19. Money Time Fail
20. Indiana Jones. Fail less than 2 years
21. Odyssey had many AP games, however they just went away, not sure why. But, they were new unique and different great graphics.
22. Hot Reels: New unique, great concept, cross between multi line VP and slots. A few version were over 100% like FPDW that could have been easily changed
23. Maze slots at Bellagio, Fail in months.
24. Black Out Video poker. Fail in months, 2 or 3 casinos.
25. ANCHOR GAMINGS entire system was customized and attached to every machine in Mandalay Bay. It was entirely ripped out after a few months.

There's many more,(I'M sure Mickey C and others can name some) can I can't remember the names because the didn't last long or just forgot. Probably a few before my time.

Casinos won't even put in good progressive meters anymore.

Honorable mentions (not sure if it was AP'able) Checkers: "skill game" didn't last long
MGM put in a huge bank of machines with linked bonuses and a shared Video screen bonus mode. Fail.

As much as I appreciate all the nay-saying (cough cough) it is ultimately up to the three parties that are in line to profit not to gouge the remaining parties who are paying the bills for this game. It seems that you are arguing about prices, not about whether or not advantage play from a class III gaming device will be less popular if one player is able to win in the long run or not.




I absolutely positively believe that pricing games too high is responsible for many of the problems we have right now. That includes putting a ridiculous amount of unnecessary technology for fanfare when many gamblers just simply want to win.

What do you think is worse? A penny slot machine with an 85% payback that has you betting $0.80 each three seconds, or a game that has a 98% to 99% payback that gives you a couple minutes of play for a hundred bucks with the opportunity to come out ahead?

$0.17 per three seconds is $3.40 per minute.
$2.00 per three minutes is $0.66 per minute.

And that's just for the average player. Effectively, $100 is a small bet on this machine, and the house isn't trying to do anything but introduce the player to the game and present to them a reality: a reality that the house doesn't even care if you win against this machine. They will make their hold no matter if you come out ahead or not.

They might charge up to 5% at $100 bet. But $5 every two minutes is still cheaper than a penny slot set at 85% payback. I see it in every casino around town! And with the slot, you have got to hit a big payback to have any hope at all. Every other time you play, the experience is very likely a terrible and/or a losing experience.

I routinely see operators setting new products from the big manufacturers at 15% house edge and higher. These are "penny slots" that generally cost a buck to play.

Part of our mission is not to lie to the customer (the gambler) and to restore some of the faith that has been lost between the manufacturers who have failed to disclose house edges to the players.

Our payback percentage is right up front and the wheel completely discloses the player's chance to win.

I'm not sure if the games that you list up above are as transparent as we are being about everything.

Games have to make money for the casino. And they have to make money for the manufacturers. Otherwise they wouldn't exist.

The only thing that we are doing is sharing with the better players (the advantage players). Last time I checked you said you were an advantage player.

I'm not sure if you're saying this or not, but it sounds like you don't believe it will work.

Let me tell you something: I hope it does work, and I had you and yours in mind when I was thinking of one of the goals for the AP's to get paid a more respectable amount of money to do what you do: and that is to play each and every game to the maximum benefit for yourself and demonstrate your knowledge of the game as you go along.

If there is a reason for this game to fail, it would be because gamblers are and always will be stupid and they will always play games that don't tell them the truth: and that is that there is no secret to coming out ahead on a class III slot machine to the extent that you could make enough money for it to be worth your while. The only exception might be if you had no other marketable skills to earn more doing something other people would consider to be a respectable job.

I don't know any AP slot players that make a million dollars per year on average. To make that much money, you have to either cheat, get really lucky, or count cards and stay under the radar (almost impossible). We want to enable AP players to make more money per year playing a class-III machine. Let me say it again, we want AP players to make more money! It is even possible with the right operator settings that the best AP player makes more money on a given machine than the casino does. All of this being possible without exposing the casino.

The casino just doesn't want to worry about exposure.

Making the argument that the casinos won't like this game because players can do better than the house just doesn't hold water in my view.

This would be like saying Ameritrade doesn't want people to profit more than the company makes by trading stocks.

It just doesn't hold water. Gambling is an activity that has not been given enough respect in this culture. And intelligent gambler (at least on machines) is pretty much an oxymoron in most of our culture's minds. To the extent that it does exist (on machines) it competes with other things that are pretty low down on the totem pole.

We want being a professinal AP video gambling device player to be something that you can do with pride and that you can make a lot of money on.

Quote: EvenBob

Then how is this an AP machine? The definition
of AP is winning more than you lose in the long
run. Mike said on the radio AP's cannot beat it.
So he was right. If you can't make more than
you lose, you're wasting your time, go to an
arcade and play PB for a buck.

Well assume you can always get at least 100% if you are good(easy I think). Now anytime an unskilled player plays and you play after you have an advantage.

Unless somehow only with a correct unknown bet and win amount (only they know) makes for the best odds if a excellent player plays.

Quote: Ahigh

It is even possible with the right operator settings that the best AP player makes more money on a given machine than the casino does. .

'Even possible'? That's a blanket statement if I
ever heard one. My wife can do that on a
regular slot, make more than she put in. Big
deal.

Can an AP CONSISTENTLY make money on your
machine. If he can't, than where is the advantage?

Quote: AxelWolf

Well assume you can always get at least 100% if you are good(easy I think). Now anytime an unskilled player plays and you play after you have an advantage..

How much of an advantage? Enough to stay
ahead in the long run?

Quote: Zcore13

Yes there is no doubt it can be lowered to offer the game to the masses. The question is will they?

The game has a wide array of settings. Mike Mitchell was the first who, like you, insisted that he cannot envision a player making a $100 bet on the machine.

There are plenty more who fail to understand why $100 is a small wager for this game.

This is a table game. It's not a slot machine.

People can and should feel comfortable on this game to risk their entire bankroll on a single bet.

There will continue to be people who fail to understand this game for lack of a familiar reference to compare it to.

And ABSOLUTELY the game can accept $1 bet for two minutes of play with an 85% hold. But it would not be advantage playable in this configuration.

That would completely defeat the purpose of the design. Just like 85% hold penny slots don't give anything to the gambler. They are basically more like arcade games than a gambling experience. And thanks for qualifying me to make that assertion with your statement about how I understand arcade games.

I do.