Vegas 2047 Pinball - G2E 2014
Quote: beachbumbabsWell, for example, (and it may be just psychological): I put $100 on Red. I win. I get $100, and I keep my $100.
I put $100 on BJ. I win. I get $100, plus I can leave my $100 in for the next bet.
I put $100 in JoB VP. I "win" with a pair of Jacks. I didn't win. I just got my money back.
I put $100 in this game. I pick the 450 to win 5. If I win, I get, what? $101, I think (but this is what I didn't understand from what Ahigh said). $100 of that was my money I had to win back. I won $1. And I had to bet $100 to do it.
I'm having trouble doing that at that level. OTOH, I can't bring myself to bet $100/hand on 1 line VP, either. So maybe I'm just not the demographic NTEK's looking for.
I haven't had time yet to watch the video explaining how to play this pinball game, but it is all just psychological.
Using your BJ example, suppose instead of putting the money in your betting circle, you hand it to the dealer who drops it in a box. You win the hand, and now the dealer pays you $200. It's the same principle. On a push, as is the case with a pair of Jacks in JoB, you would just get your $100 back.
Quote: beachbumbabs
I really like the potential. I think EB's thoughts about the available market of interested players are a valid criticism,.
One of the key note speakers at G2E said
the average visitor to Vegas is in their late
40's. The average age at one of the thousand
Indian casinos is 55, I read somewhere. This
game is of no interest to the largest demo
in casinos. Perhaps if you had a separate
area that was just different pinballs, you might
get younger people interested. But they
have no money, it would have to be in the
$5-$10 range.
You know who loves pinball? College kids. But
they can't get into casinos and are flat broke
anyway.
The way I understand it is.... its only adjusting because of a bonus pool. That's also how a player can get an advantage, if the bonus pool is high enough then a skilled player will be playing with an advantage until the bonus pool is depleted.Quote: DRichIf this is true it will make it very difficult to get approved in many jurisdictions. For most electronic gaming devices prior performance may not change the probability of outcomes.
Obviously no matter how good you are you cant play this all day long with an advantage like a full pay VP machine.
I wonder if they can add a progressive to it.
To me, the win amounts appear to be on a "x to y" basis and not "x for y". There's no way somebody would make a "$5 for $525" bet, but "$5 to $525" sure.
Quote: AhighI am just starting this thread (with approval from the Wizard) to announce that we are showing Vegas 2047 pinball at booth #2712.
Just to get started, some images of the "stuff we all get" or SWAG.
SWAG is a reverse acronym. It actually has meant stolen loot since the 1800s, and someone recently created the fake acronym for it.
Good luck on your game, looks fun.
Quote: dwheatley
SWAG is a reverse acronym. It actually has meant stolen loot since the 1800s, and someone recently created the fake acronym for it.
Good luck on your game, looks fun.
Kind of like the word buffet.
Quote: dwheatleyQuote: AhighI am just starting this thread (with approval from the Wizard) to announce that we are showing Vegas 2047 pinball at booth #2712.
Just to get started, some images of the "stuff we all get" or SWAG.
SWAG is a reverse acronym. It actually has meant stolen loot since the 1800s, and someone recently created the fake acronym for it.
Good luck on your game, looks fun.
A friend worked for ESPN at football games taking care of various cables during the game.
Lots of stuff left behind after the game, strict rules for ESPN employees.
SWAG on the field is "Stuff We Aint Getting"
The game looks fun. I think the biggest interest would be people in their 40's 50's and 60's, those that grew up with pinball.
Quote: terapined. I think the biggest interest would be people in their 40's 50's and 60's, those that grew up with pinball.
Where did men (women don't play pinball generally)
in the 70's and 80's find pinball? The heyday was 40's
to 60's. In the 70's it was waning and video games
in the late 70's killed it dead. When I grew up in the
60's I seldom saw it. When the song Pinball Wizard
came out in 69, I remember we were puzzled
because nobody we knew played pinball anymore,
that was the generation before us.
Quote: EvenBobWhere did men (women don't play pinball generally)
in the 70's and 80's find pinball? The heyday was 40's
to 60's. In the 70's it was waning and video games
in the late 70's killed it dead. When I grew up in the
60's I seldom saw it. When the song Pinball Wizard
came out in 69, I remember we were puzzled
because nobody we knew played pinball anymore,
that was the generation before us.
I don't know about where you grew up.
I grew up in Baltimore early 1970's and me and my friends played tons of pinball. All the kids played pinball. Video games were still pretty simplistic back then and not real attractive.
Where I played, the most popular games were pinball and foosball. Video just wasn't cutting it back then yet.
I'm pretty sure I am older then Axelwolf and he mentioned playing a ton of pinball. You only play a ton of pinball as a kid.
Checkout the pinball museum in Vegas for a real education on the subject. I recommend the place.
Quote: EvenBobWhere did men (women don't play pinball generally) in the 70's and 80's find pinball?
Pinball was still popular with the teenage crowd before Space Invaders showed up in 1980 or so. Once Space Invaders / Asteroids / Pac-Man / Donkey Kong / Centipede showed up, pinball started its decline. Newer machines have a disadvantage in that they tend to be very expensive, especially compared to video games, which are themselves going into decline thanks to the affordability of home gaming systems with decent graphics.
But there's nothing new about pinball machines designed for gambling; do a search on "bingo pinballs". They aren't as widespread as they used to be, in part because authorities are cracking down on them (in California, if you are caught with a bingo pinball (and I am not sure if the "25 years old makes it an antique" exception for slot machines applies), it gets taken away and almost certainly destroyed), but if you look hard enough, you can find them. The Pinball Hall of Fame on Tropicana has one, but I don't think it was working the last time I looked (and no, they will not buy back your credits).
Question: just how does this new game work? Is it that your score determines how much of the wheel is green when it spins to determine if you won your bet or not? If so, I would expect professional pinball players (yes, they exist) to be all over this machine.
Your initial bet determines how much of the initial wheel is green. Your score then increase that amount. While playing it indicate I had well over 100%, we are talking 10%.Quote: ThatDonGuy
Question: just how does this new game work? Is it that your score determines how much of the wheel is green when it spins to determine if you won your bet or not? If so, I would expect professional pinball players (yes, they exist) to be all over this machine.
I can see a version of this where it starts off as a slot and the pinball is only played within a bonus round. perhaps an auto play option for people who just like to watch the action.
I'm surprised something similar to pachinko hasn't been developed. Are you listening Ahigh? Could be a side project next to the pinball concept:-)
Pachinko is huge in Japan. Its used for gambling even though gambling is illegal. You win prizes if you are good. There is always a shop nearby the pachinko parlor that will buy prizes getting around the gambling restriction.
Talk about an untapped market of gamblers from Japan in Vegas.
They offer pachinko online for real money. Ahighs game might be great for online.Quote: terapinedAhigh, I hope your game makes it. Looks fun. I gamble for fun because I like playing fun games. I only gamble because that's the cost of playing games in Vegas.
I'm surprised something similar to pachinko hasn't been developed. Are you listening Ahigh? Could be a side project next to the pinball concept:-)
Pachinko is huge in Japan. Its used for gambling even though gambling is illegal. You win prizes if you are good. There is always a shop nearby the pachinko parlor that will buy prizes getting around the gambling restriction.
Talk about an untapped market of gamblers from Japan in Vegas.
Quote: AxelWolfYour initial bet determines how much of the initial wheel is green. Your score then increase that amount. While playing it indicate I had well over 100%, we are talking 10%.
I can see a version of this where it starts off as a slot and the pinball is only played within a bonus round. perhaps an auto play option for people who just like to watch the action.
How the hell do you ALWAYS seem to find these over 100% Games?? :)
1. I saw two players who accidentally used the wrong buttons for the flippers and thought they were broken. This would cause a lot of anger if it were for real money. Personally, I think that any button on the right should control the right flipper and any button on the left should control the left flipper.
2. After winning, there is a very low voice that sounds like the Mortal Kombat voice, except I couldn't understand it. This sounds like something bad happened until the cheery voice says that you won.
3. It should be made more clear which color wins and which loses. I did see that the wheel colors were modified by the second day, but I think there should be something like "Land on green to win," right above the wheel.
Quote: CrystalMathThe game was very fun and made very well. It was, hands down, the most unique product at the show, but I do have a few suggestions:
1. I saw two players who accidentally used the wrong buttons for the flippers and thought they were broken. This would cause a lot of anger if it were for real money. Personally, I think that any button on the right should control the right flipper and any button on the left should control the left flipper.
2. After winning, there is a very low voice that sounds like the Mortal Kombat voice, except I couldn't understand it. This sounds like something bad happened until the cheery voice says that you won.
3. It should be made more clear which color wins and which loses. I did see that the wheel colors were modified by the second day, but I think there should be something like "Land on green to win," right above the wheel.
Echoing what CrystalMath said, what happens in a casino if an AP is trying to play the pinball game well for $1,000 per "hand" and a drunk tourist stumbles into them and causes the ball to drop? Does casino management negate that turn and allow a free $1,000 play? Maybe I'm not understanding that concept either but in a crowded casino where the goal is to get eyes on a new concept, to me combining that with booze and drunk tourists is a recipe for a handful of very angry whales.
Not to detract from the concept, Ahigh, because I think gambling pinball is an awesome idea. Kind of reminds me of the post from the Wiz (not sure if it was here or on WoO) about Looff's Lite a Line. Definitely a place I plan on visiting when I make it out to California, if for nothing else than to experience a different (and highly unique) form of gambling.
Quote: CrystalMathThe game was very fun and made very well. It was, hands down, the most unique product at the show
Ditto.
Quote: CrystalMath1. I saw two players who accidentally used the wrong buttons for the flippers and thought they were broken. This would cause a lot of anger if it were for real money. Personally, I think that any button on the right should control the right flipper and any button on the left should control the left flipper.
Yeah, I was one of those guys.
Frankly, there only needs to be one MULTI-FUNCTION button on each side.
Before the game starts, the buttons are used to set the bet.
After you pull the plunger, they control the flippers.
After the game ends, they get the QR code to appear.
Also, the QR code is way to big. Gotta hold the phone too high to scan it. Lapel, that should just appear, along with a brief description, automatically upon completion.
The pinball is a no brainer, it displays the % on the screen as you play. The problem with this particular game, you wont know if its + EV until you play it.Quote: BozHow the hell do you ALWAYS seem to find these over 100% Games?? :)
joe bet 5000 to win 50,000 and had upset victory!
Quote: Ahigh
joe bet 5000 to win 50,000 and had upset victory!
Real money, or just play?
Did Joe Kaminkow, Larry DeMar, or Eugene Jarvis comment on it?
Quote: MrVQuote: Ahigh
joe bet 5000 to win 50,000 and had upset victory!
Real money, or just play?
I think you know the answer. Its a gaming show, not a licensed casino.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13The game is very cool. The problem is it's 25 years too late for arcades that don't really exist anymore and it's not going to fly on casino floors. I'd play it in my game room at my house, but I don't see any chance that it makes it into more than a couple casinos just as a fun thing to try.
ZCore13
I can see the pinball being more successful as a bonus game, like spinning the wheel on "Wheel of Fortune", rather than the the main game. I think slot managers may be more open to an installation if the coin through was more traditional (i.e., faster).
A few questions:
-- Are the cabinet and buttons moisture proof? What if someone spills a drink, or slams their fist on it (which led to the demise of many pinball machines)?
-- Can it be played sitting down? Pinball is traditionally played standing, while most video slots are played while seated.
You can check the facebook page for details.
http://www.facebook.com/vegas2047
Quote: Zcore13The game is very cool. The problem is it's 25 years too late for arcades that don't really exist anymore and it's not going to fly on casino floors.
+10
There's a huge difference between seeing
it at a show & goofing with it, and seeing it
in a casino and sticking a hundred bucks
into it's craw. You say 25 years and I say
40 years. In 1970 there was still pinball
in different parts of the country, but it was
majorly on it's way out. In the 50's it was
at roller rinks, barber shops, supermarkets,
drug stores, diners. By the 70's it was mostly
gone.
I think this failed to post properly before. I was so busy at the show I did the code wrong.
Maximum player advantage was set to 20% on the final day when Joe Kaminkow won the iPad. He played pinball very well!
I think he had an 18% player advantage on his winning game.
We will be sharing some of the details of the play later, but for now I am taking a break. I've been working very hard to have to read some of the less than positive comments.
Quote: DRichI would be interested in what some of the gaming developers that used to create pinball games thought of the concept.
Did Joe Kaminkow, Larry DeMar, or Eugene Jarvis comment on it?
Joe Kaminkow said it was the "best game at the show."
So did Wade Andrews.
So did "Professionalpoker" the forum administrator for 2+2 poker forums.
Steve Ritchie, Eugene Jarvis, George Gomez, and many other Stern folks and Raw Thrills folks are all very close personal friends that I talk to often.
I will let you know what they think, but they are all very close friends of mine, and I would be very surprised if they said anything negative at all, frankly.
Steve Ritchie and Gary Stern don't generally believe in video pinball. But we solved all the technical problems with previous iterations of video pinball. Most people just don't understand these things at all, and just assume it's impossible to do what we have done. But this is absolutely the most technically accurate pinball simulator that has ever been created.
What do, I know? I know I would play this in a heartbeat but not at the
high limit room level.
I know this is the damn coolest thing I have seen since bubble craps.
I know this is way outside the box and I believe this is why Ahigh was
chosen to drive the bus.
Its guys like Ahigh that make the big innovations because they think outside the box.
Quote: rainmanCan this be viable in a casino? I don't know, not really my area of expertise.
What do, I know? I know I would play this in a heartbeat but not at the
high limit room level.
I know this is the damn coolest thing I have seen since bubble craps.
I know this is way outside the box and I believe this is why Ahigh was
chosen to drive the bus.
Its guys like Ahigh that make the big innovations because they think outside the box.
This is not like any previous high limit game.
If a $100 bet required you to win even money, I would be with you.
But when you can get a 20% player edge and win a small fraction of what you bet, and completely eliminate your chance to lose, $100 seems like a small risk for a guaranteed win cashing in your pinball skills.
This game turns what you know about gambling on its ear pretty quick.
I don't know, maybe it's just me…
Quote: DJTeddyBearI still don't get why any casino would want to put in a machine where, not only is there is a possible player advantage, but that the game developer admits that it's there and was designed that way.
I don't know, maybe it's just me…
Things is, it starts out at a large player disadvantage, and play just brings it up. A casino could set the maximum player advantage to 1%, set the base at 90% and it'll be rare a player will be with an advantage very often. Not often enough to be APing the game, if my experience with pinball is right, it's hard to get to the big scores consistently.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI still don't get why any casino would want to put in a machine where, not only is there is a possible player advantage, but that the game developer admits that it's there and was designed that way.
I don't know, maybe it's just me…
Ir's not just you. As a game player, I thought it was cool. Just like I thought my Atari, c64, Intelevision, Amiga 500, Xbox and Xbox 360 are cool. Fun games to play.
As a table games manager and someone who has been chosen by the State to speak on the future of Table Games/gaming I don't see it working out. I see lots of cool ideas and games. Dozens a year. Many I like but that doesn't mean it's a winner on the floor. There's more to it than just being s fun game or concept.
Crying about negative feedback will never get you anywhere. You should be asking how to make it more viable on the floor of a Casino.
ZCore13
Quote: AhighJoe Kaminkow said it was the "best game at the show."
So did Wade Andrews.
So did "Professionalpoker" the forum administrator for 2+2 poker forums.
.
Just listened to the radio show from last
night. The three hosts pretty much gave
it a thumbs down. Interesting game, but
that you might get good enough to beat
it is an 'illusion'. The pinball part of it, the
skill part, has little to do with the final
outcome. The casino can set it to pay off
exactly like a slot machine. Even the most
skilled player in the world would not be
able to beat it. No perceived advantage
play. Fun game, but takes too long to
play, and the min bet is 'just crazy'.
Just repeating what was said on the show.
Go to 28min in for the pinball part:
http://www.slot-machine-resource.com/podcasts/g2e2.mp3
Quote: DJTeddyBearI still don't get why any casino would want to put in a machine where, not only is there is a possible player advantage, but that the game developer admits that it's there and was designed that way.
I don't know, maybe it's just me…
It's not just you. Many people (especially people who think in terms of video slots) that I respect continue to fail to understand how the math works.
After the 2+2 forum guys saw the video, they seemed to instantly understand.
I think poker players understand more easily.
Quote: EvenBobJust listened to the radio show from last
night. The three hosts pretty much gave
it a thumbs down. Interesting game, but
that you might get good enough to beat
it is an 'illusion'. The pinball part of it, the
skill part, has little to do with the final
outcome. The casino can set it to pay off
exactly like a slot machine. Even the most
skilled player in the world would not be
able to beat it. No perceived advantage
play. Fun game, but takes too long to
play, and the min bet is 'just crazy'.
Just repeating what was said on the show.
Go to 28min in for the pinball part:
http://www.slot-machine-resource.com/podcasts/g2e2.mp3
There was a failure to understand here. I was very disappointed, actually. But I don't think the Wizard intentionally did what he did here.
Once folks understand it, there is a light bulb moment. It can be frustrating not to get it, I'm sure.
Quote: Ahigh
Once folks understand it, there is a light bulb moment. It can be frustrating not to get it, I'm sure.
So he was wrong in what he said? An AP
can beat it, the casino can't set it to pay
off just like a slot? The skill part doesn't
count very little in the payout? He claims
he got these facts directly from you.
Correct what he got wrong or we have
no idea what you mean.
Quote: AhighThere was a failure to understand here. I was very disappointed, actually. But I don't think the Wizard intentionally did what he did here.
Once folks understand it, there is a light bulb moment. It can be frustrating not to get it, I'm sure.
If people aren't "getting it" as you claim, that is the designers fault, not the players. A game has to be describable and learn-able in 30 seconds or less (preferably less). I haven't heard any frustrations from reviews of the game, just thoughts from some smart people saying they don't think it will work. There's a difference.
ZCore13
I'm not sure how he could come away thinking that the game is not advantage playable after watching the video that I presented, but I can only believe that he didn't watch the entire video I made.
In the video, I explicitly stated that one goal of the game is that there would be professional players who would consistently win on the game.
How he failed to understand that, I do not know.
People have a hard time understanding that a game that can be beaten by one player cannot be beaten by the sum total of all players.
Somehow the poker players get it much more easily.
Quote: Ahigh
I'm not sure how he could come away thinking that the game is not advantage playable .
He said he asked that specific question
and you told him no, a really good PB
player CANNOT beat it. Which makes
sense, what casino would want a game
that's beatable by AP.
Quote: EvenBobHe said he asked that specific question
and you told him no, a really good PB
player CANNOT beat it. Which makes
sense, what casino would want a game
that's beatable by AP.
The question that he asked was if there was any exposure to the casino from an advantage player.
That question I answered with no.
But he's confused. Of that much I am certain. If he has some evidence that I told him that the game was not advantage playable, I would love to consider it. But I'm pretty sure he is simply mistaken.
He came in, he bet $5000 to win $40,000 twice and he left. He didn't spend much time understanding how the math worked before he went on Bob's show to report what he reported in error.
I'm a little disappointed, frankly.
Quote: AhighThe question that he asked was if there was any exposure to the casino from an advantage player.
That question I answered with no.
But he's confused. Of that much I am certain. If he has some evidence that I told him that the game was not advantage playable, I would love to consider it. But I'm pretty sure he is simply mistaken.
He came in, he bet $5000 to win $40,000 twice and he left. He didn't spend much time understanding how the math worked before he went on Bob's show to report what he reported in error.
I'm a little disappointed, frankly.
If a really good player can gain an advantage, the casino has exposure.
If one person can do it, others can and will. Casinos spend A LOT of money to make sure they are never at a disadvantage. The game is dead in the water if someone can. By making a game that is not only possible but you are advertising it as such, you've cut your own throat.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13If a really good player can gain an advantage, the casino has exposure.
I'm really sorry about this, but you're wrong. Again, the poker players are sufficient data for Reductio ad absurdum proof.
The game has zero pricing errors. And the long term math prevents mathematical exposure.
If you define exposure as the chance for a game to pay out more than it has taken in, you might have a valid argument.
However, if you define exposure that way, every game that allows you to win on the first bet after you install the game (pretty much every class III slot machine) has exposure.
Quote: AhighI'm really sorry about this, but you're wrong. Again, the poker players are sufficient data for Reductio ad absurdum proof.
Ok, so I've been playing poker since 1988. I've averaged a few thousand in income every year playing for fun. At While at G2E I played in a $70 buy in with 53 players and won $600. I've played thousands and thousands of hours of poker. The game will not work out for you.
ZCore13
I can arrange a correction be made on next week's show either by you directly or I'm sure Bob will read on the air any statement you wish to make.
Again, I apologize for anything I said that wasn't accurate and I welcome specific correction.
Quote: Zcore13The game will not work out for you.
Wow. That's just really rude. You need to stop this.
Perhaps you can be more clear on this.
Quote: WizardI apologize for anything I said that was in error on the radio. What I said is what came away with at the show, but I've been wrong before. There was evidently some misunderstanding but I knew that if this gets out there everybody and his brother will ask me if it is a potential advantage play for strong pinball players. The answer I took away from the booth was "no." However, I guess I misunderstood something.
I can arrange a correction be made on next week's show either by you directly or I'm sure Bob will read on the air any statement you wish to make.
Again, I apologize for anything I said that wasn't accurate and I welcome specific correction.
Thanks, Wizard. I know you didn't intentionally create a problem, but I don't want people confused about this, and your word carries a lot of weight.
It is an issue that we want to correct. You recommended Mark Nicely to me, and he understands the model fully, as does Noah and the other math guys at GLI.
We can iron it out...
:-)
Just let me take a break, and give me a break, and we will talk about all of this stuff.
I'm scheduled for a couple of radio talk show interviews where this subject will be covered in detail as well.
