Are some members paid to be on the WOV forums?

Quote: rxwine

Let's put Paigowdan to a test.

Somehow, without gaffing a machine, Dan figures out with a mental process and perhaps a computer how to get a least 4 Powerball numbers correct every time.

1. Will Dan try to go for multi million dollar (1/2 billion jackpot) by buying up selected tickets?

2. Some other dumb thing?

1. There was a sports betting group that legally used and analyzed deep and exotic (but valid) metrics such as wind conditions, season game exhaustion and recent outings to performance, and even the probability of the starting pitcher recently getting laid, and used computer batch processing to EV and calculate it all to great big money success; they had an incredibly good record, totally legal, and went through HELL via false criminal charges and legal expenses.
They did nothing wrong, as with sports betting, you just make your bets before game time. Period end of story, the complied with the house.

2. No, I won't buy up selected tickets. It's fine to do with me though, as by the house rules of the lottery. But Nevada doesn't have lotteries. We have progressives, and DEQ Systems Incorporated has multi-bet progressives on their table games. (You see this on EZ Pai Gow, EZ baccarat, and you'll see this on DEQ's new Tiger Split game. Mike the Wiz may touch upon that. Ask him.)

Quote: Boz

Wait???? What Bob Dancer professes to do is OK? And if he stands behind every student he teaches 24/7 and they all end up ahead based on promotions the casinos offer, that's OK with you?

Thanks for the answer.

I don't know Bob personally. If he doesn't stick a light wand into a slot machine, he seems okay.

What Tommy Carmichael did was illegal and not by the house rules.

Ask Bob what he thinks about Tommy.

If Bob is fine by LVA, he's fine with me.

Quote: TomG

You pick the casino, I pick the table (must be 3-2). Any evening this week is good

What do you consider "any heat" and what about SD or DD?

RS,
don't post this, don't let me see this.
Heat is good, it disinfects.
You can PM him.

Quote: Paigowdan

I don't know Bob personally. If he doesn't stick a light wand into a slot machine, he seems okay.

What Tommy Carmichael did was illegal and not by the house rules.

Ask Bob what he thinks about Tommy.

If Bob is fine by LVA, he's fine with me.

Thanks for confirming what most of us think about AC. But we all have to make our money, right? Check the morals at the door.

Let's face it, Jon Taffer and AC to a lessor extent made far more money than the 702 ever did following their advice. By the way, how is Hammer and Ales doing?

Quote: Boz

Thanks for confirming what most of us think about AC. But we all have to make our money, right? Check the morals at the door.

AC does a fine job is promoting a fine industry and activity. He owes apologies to no man. If he does, then that'll involve only JC.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, you can look. You can't help but to see the cards, even in a face down pitch game they turn them over. You can look, too, if you want.
It's when you track all cards and hands, and then reverse-engineer the composition of the remaining deck, and then adjust your bet in parallel with the count (all of which is visible outside of thoughts), you're doing something extra.

And that statement Dan, is what I'm talking about. EVERYTHING you just mentioned is done INSIDE your head in seconds, before you adjust your bet. I can't grasp what you refer to as (all of which is visible outside of thoughts) and I'm sorry but that sure sounds like casino psycho babble to me. Is the player taking notes? Is he using a camera to record what he is seeing. Does he have a ball cap with a camera mounted?

Seriously, the ONLY thing visible outside is someone changing a bet and yourself and the casino convincing yourselves SOMETHING is going on. That SOMETHING is a human being using their brain to their advantage with a single player one and one in knowing blackjack strategy. And unfortunately, you being a designer and protecting your business and intellectual property has forced you to take this stand that the human mind is illegal in casinos. I get your need to protect your work, as if your game is shown some sort of protection weakness as you put it, the casino may pass up your next piece of hard work.

I don't think you're unique in this regard and some of the protection makes sense. And as the thread starter asks if someone related to casinos could be following and intercepting threads, I would say, with no disrespect or malice, that you could be a candidate as an active paid or self motivated reviewer of the gambling blogsphere. There's whole cottage industries that do just that using web crawlers and word searches can pull up gigabytes of forum and blogs within instants to your eyeball-tips. Just a few rebuttals are propagated all over the world in hours.

That and the fact that so far, all your responses have been even handed, wordy, yes - but you've responded to the posts and not attacked the poster has been refreshing. Even though I don't agree with almost 80% of your stance, your debating has been civil, as I said. Makes me ashamed I already posted a little snarky. I've got to work on that.

And why is Tommy C part of this? If he is your evidence, you lost. No one is debating his methods that I see.

Quote: Paigowdan

AC does a fine job is promoting a fine industry and activity. He owes apologies to no man. If he does, then that'll involve only JC.

Nor do I or you. Not about apologies I as I see it. You only apologize if you are wrong and can admit it.

Quote: Paigowdan

Clean play is also key, that's my point. Bob Dancer never used a light wand on a slot machine like Tommy Carmichael.

There you go again comparing cheating to AP. I don't personally know anyone inducing myself that has used a light wand, if I did, I woud run the other way as fast as I could.
THAT'S NOT AP.



It's also silly to think you have to be some incredibly talented perfect playing VP expert to gain an advantage at Video poker.

What i meant to say earlier is Dan have a narrow view of what AP is. You mostly associate AP's with table games and then you think everyone is doing something against the casinos rules. NOT TRUE..... Unless being an advantage player is against the casino rules.
Examples of plays where AP'S follow casino rules.
Video poker progressives
slot progressives
Bonus slots
Drawings
Promotions
Full pay VP machines over 100%
Video poker with slot card benefits
Promotions like 2:1 Blackjacks, rebates, jackpot promotions, bingo cards, point multipliers, 4 of a kind bonuses and the list could go on and on.

People play within the rules all the time and yet they still get tossed out. Even the casino you used to work for has done so. Many if not most of the casinos in LV has tossed out players who played well within the rules of the casino. Many casinos have cheated players, especially when it comes to reneging on promotions where a player was baited into a level up type of situation. IE Hit x number of this or that and receive x amount of money. The casino realizes they made a bad(good for AP's) promotion and they refuse to pay, even after that person has lost a significant amount of money. This type of situation has happened many many times.

PS. GWAE endorses and encourages the use of light wands, just ask his wife and children.

Quote: Boz

Nor do I or you. Not about apologies I as I see it. You only apologize if you are wrong and can admit it.

Can you quote and explain what you're talking about ?

Quote: Paigowdan

AC does a fine job is promoting a fine industry and activity. He owes apologies to no man. If he does, then that'll involve only JC.

Assuming he means AC, not JC

Quote: Paigowdan

I don't know Bob personally. If he doesn't stick a light wand into a slot machine, he seems okay.

What Tommy Carmichael did was illegal and not by the house rules.

Ask Bob what he thinks about Tommy.

If Bob is fine by LVA, he's fine with me.

Start of conversation.

Not an AC fan here. Then the discussion went into Bar Rescue, 702, Hammer & Nails and other AC adventures for money.

PGD, why is "Bob Dancer OK" (ie: VP AP's are okay) but table games AP's are not?

JG has a blog on LVA, he is "fine by LVA". Is he "okay" to you?

Quote: sammydv

And that statement Dan, is what I'm talking about. EVERYTHING you just mentioned is done INSIDE your head in seconds, before you adjust your bet. I can't grasp what you refer to as (all of which is visible outside of thoughts) and I'm sorry but that sure sounds like casino psycho babble to me. Is the player taking notes? Is he using a camera to record what he is seeing. Does he have a ball cap with a camera mounted?

What I am trying to do is to get you AP guys outside of your head, even at this inner sanctum forum......

That is to say:
1. If surveillance can see it -then it is obviously that is something outside of your head. They cannot see your claim of "just little old me thinking over here, all innocent and all" but BOY can they see your real-world AP play and maneuvers. That's their job. I mean, if they can see it on camera and tape and all, then it's CLEARLY outside your head. They can see you breaking the house rules when your mind and hands cannot, and that's why they have these guys in suits and cameras over the tables.
2. when a shift manager and two security goons tap you on the shoulder, and tell you that your play is just too fabulous for them - that is also outside of your head. It's no longer "I was just thinking in my head about doing it, why are you guys tapping me on my shoulder over here, no CRIME in thinking, right?? I'm using my brains here, right??"
3. So, walking to the parking lot or waiting at a bus stop on Flaming Road, wondering why you're there - instead of sitting at a table with two racks of purple chips is also outside your head. Except for the two racks of purple chips. Now, that's inside your head, and it won't be coming out into the real world at the cage if it hadn't, by this point....
4. Now, some AP players do get two racks of purple chips to cash out. Some ploppies also get lucky and get racks of purple. So, some of them were lucky, some of them are counters. For some, it was a lucky day. For others, it is a job they may not be able to count on.
5. I believe that the real AP's who do make out well aren't here. They're down under the radar so deep they're like CIA/KGB moles. They get told (like Kevin Spacey in the movie "21"), "Pop up your head up and expect it to be shot off. Big money is at stake here, you keep a low profile, and stay off of Unibike Mike's site, no posting or yapping with Noisy Casino Cop Dan over there, the whole industry and world can see it" - playing the real Mickey Rosa. I mean, if I were an AP player, a counterfeiter, or what have you doing something clandestine which I needed to depend on for life's money, my money-making alter ego would be an absolutely invisible ghost.

Things are drying up. The gravy train is drying up like Lake Meade. Already my home owners association took out the green lawns and replaced them with sand and stone frontage. The rain clouds above us had dried up, as if they were surveillance on my life.

Quote: RS

What do you consider "any heat" and what about SD or DD?

Heat would be anything that prevents you from getting bets down: told not to play blackjack anymore, told not to spread, preferential shuffle, anything else?

Like I said before you pick the casino, I'll pick the table (must be 3-2). Are there still any single deck games left other than El Cortez? That would be the one table in the entire city where you might be told the play wasn't allowed (but would be fine at any of their other tables.) Last other single deck I knew of was Alamo on Blue Diamond. Six deck should be permissible to use since kewlj was reportedly making close to six figures per year on those games. But we can do double deck if you insist.

Hooters.

Quote: Paigowdan

That is to say:
1. If surveillance can see it -then it is obviously that is something outside of your head.

They can see the player raise and lower the bets. That is not against the rules of any casino. Surveillance cannot see the reason for why the bet changes, which you insist is what makes it against the rules

Quote: Paigowdan

2. when a shift manager and two security goons tap you on the shoulder, and tell you that your play is just too fabulous for them - that is also outside of your head.

Once again, the this happens so very rarely compared to the number of times a blackjack player is able to gain an advantage over the casino, proving that is is so rarely against their rules.

Quote: Paigowdan

3. So, walking to the parking lot or waiting at a bus stop on Flaming Road, wondering why you're there - instead of sitting at a table with two racks of purple chips is also outside your head.

Not many who ride the bus are winning at casino games. It's best to be able to hit multiple spots as quickly as possible and a bus is not the best way to do that.

Quote: Paigowdan

4. Now, some AP players do get two racks of purple chips to cash out.

And some are fine just averaging a few greens or blacks every week. Makes for nice supplemental income.

Quote: Paigowdan

5. I believe that the real AP's who do make out well aren't here.

I know more than a dozen earning in the six figure range. It's all stuff that's been written about and can be found with a google search: $25 to $400 spread in blackjack; $10 and $20 hands of video poker with an edge; beating market price in the sports book. The people doing the common and well known stuff greatly exceed the number of people doing the esoteric and unknown. Once into the seven and eight figure range it might be quite a bit different

You never addressed the parity question.

One time I overpaid my phone bill by $300. Of course, I got credit for it. Now that's okay, as far as I'm concerned, the business didn't profit from my error.

Now the little old lady losing her SS money, they send her a voucher to come back. Probably don't mention in 90% of similar cases they are going to keep her money on any of her bad plays.

But then that is their general modus operandi. Keeping money from players who make mistakes.

Now I ask again, why is it okay for casinos to profit from mistakes and not the customers profiting from casinos' mistakes?

Quote: TomG

They can see the player raise and lower the bets. That is not against the rules of any casino. Surveillance cannot see the reason for why the bet changes, which you insist is what makes it against the rules

Uhm, Tom, if they can see you raise and lower bets acting in concert with the count, then they can see THAT you raise or lower bets with the count for personal advantage reasons (a problem), or had otherwise randomly betted (not a problem), or by Martingale (which actually goes against the count, which is A-okay with the house).
Just because you can raise and lower bets doesn't mean it is okay, if it is "concert with the count, for advantage." They can see this and tell you goodnight, goodbye.

Quote: Tom

Once again, the this happens so very rarely compared to the number of times a blackjack player is able to gain an advantage over the casino, proving that is is so rarely against their rules.

Tom, you keep saying "it's so RARE to get backed off, then it must be okay!!! And it is so hard to prove!!"
Getting backed off or burnt out "into the surveillance book" is actually a very serious threat, catastrophic, to a good AP's lively hood, especially if you're barred from major chains.
It's a bit like saying "Well - accidentally getting shot in the face with a 20-gauge shotgun it actually lot better that getting accidentally shot in the face with a full 12-gauge, - and it happens so rarely that it must be okay!"
No.
For the professional AP, who had flown completely under the radar and had counted on that income to provide for family, self, and needs, - getting blown into the open surveillance network of a major operator chain can be absolutely catastrophic, regardless of chain. I don't report APs, when I dealt I let floor handle it, and they often they said "you've got to stop doing this before you're in the book....I'm not putting you in, dude, but go somewhere else quickly" - because casino workers don't want blood sport or red tape. They want to do their shifts and go home. If you are really a pro AP, it may be your financial life in some cases. A back off is enough, a hatchet job is unnecessary, There are great "financial stability" risks to being an AP, and some casino execs are not dicks about it to a man, though some may be. But once burnt out, it is very rough situation.

Quote: Tommy

And some are fine just averaging a few greens or blacks every week. Makes for nice supplemental income.

Yes. For that matter, doing a few days of bartending works, doing a few gaming math jobs a month helps (life a few at this do site), driving for Uber, or writing a book, or dealing part time, also work. Income that doesn't come out of the gaming workers pockets or the ploppies pockets looks better to me. But that;'s just me.

Quote: Tommy

I know more than a dozen earning in the six figure range. It's all stuff that's been written about and can be found with a google search: $25 to $400 spread in blackjack; $10 and $20 hands of video poker with an edge; beating market price in the sports book. The people doing the common and well known stuff greatly exceed the number of people doing the esoteric and unknown. Once into the seven and eight figure range it might be quite a bit different

Yes, the whole Nathaniel Tilton glory story done ten times over.
Read his book and loved his account of being an AP player while running a financial company as his primary business and cover. I didn't subscribe to his intermittent claims of "the gaming industry is evil so I had to abscond with their money" (which he did in spades with aplomb and very beautifully as an AP pro, and not like a wanna-be. I myself high-5-ed it many times reading the book.)
I high-5 it and said "good story to read."
You high-5 it and say, "Watch me do this, too, yes!!." You and another bunch of fools. AP life beats a career and a family. Good luck.

I can't say I not warning you against it, as some sort of fools' gold.

I'm saying, in most cases, AP is indeed fool's gold.
But instead of saying "don't let me warn you," let me say instead, "I stated my position. Good luck to you in this career. Knock yourself out, Really."

Quote: Paigowdan

1. There was a sports betting group that legally used and analyzed deep and exotic (but valid) metrics such as wind conditions, season game exhaustion and recent outings to performance, and even the probability of the starting pitcher recently getting laid, and used computer batch processing to EV and calculate it all to great big money success; they had an incredibly good record, totally legal, and went through HELL via false criminal charges and legal expenses.
They did nothing wrong, as with sports betting, you just make your bets before game time. Period end of story, the complied with the house.

2. No, I won't buy up selected tickets. It's fine to do with me though, as by the house rules of the lottery. But Nevada doesn't have lotteries. We have progressives, and DEQ Systems Incorporated has multi-bet progressives on their table games. (You see this on EZ Pai Gow, EZ baccarat, and you'll see this on DEQ's new Tiger Split game. Mike the Wiz may touch upon that. Ask him.)

Wait a minute, Dan. Now, you are once again throwing bs at all of us. This is why everyone is calling you out.

So, to clarify from your above statements:

A sports betting group used their brains (like card counters do) to come up with an advantage (in your words deep and exotic stuff which is much more esoteric than a simple composition of a remaining deck of cards) and using this information, the were able to have great big money success (in your parlance, these guys were not gambling, they were seeking to make profit) and (wait for it) ....... that in your mind is perfectly okay and legal?

But wait, it gets better. Because you point out above they went through HELL via false criminal charges and legal expenses? So, you are saying that the GOVERNMENT felt they were doing something wrong but you believe they were A-ok and being falsely vilified.... all the while AP's doing things that have already been proven to be legal (card counting, hole carding, etc) are being vilified by you because it is the casinos they are hitting and the casinos are the ones not happy?

Getting back to the OP's assertions, it is looking more and more like you are some type of info shill trying to find any (non) credible argument to convince people AP is a bad career choice.

Certainly your assertions that AP's can lose their jobs catastrophically and cannot maintain a normal family life are bewildering and concerning to me. I, in particular have had some back-offs and even back-roomings and NONE of that was able to stop me from making money as an AP and I spend more time with my family now (especially since I pulled most of them into my AP business) than I ever did.

Quote: darkoz

Wait a minute, Dan. Now, you are once again throwing bs at all of us. This is why everyone is calling you out.

So, to clarify from your above statements:

A sports betting group used their brains (like card counters do) to come up with an advantage (in your words deep and exotic stuff which is much more esoteric than a simple composition of a remaining deck of cards) and using this information, the were able to have great big money success (in your parlance, these guys were not gambling, they were seeking to make profit) and (wait for it) ....... that in your mind is perfectly okay and legal?

Yes, because it IS by the rule and fully gambling, and IMO I agree with it 100%.

Quote: Doz

But wait, it gets better. Because you point out above they went through HELL via false criminal charges and legal expenses? So, you are saying that the GOVERNMENT felt they were doing something wrong but you believe they were A-ok and being falsely vilified.... all the while AP's doing things that have already been proven to be legal (card counting, hole carding, etc) are being vilified by you because it is the casinos they are hitting and the casinos are the ones not happy?

In this case, yes. The house - and government - were wrong in this case. I mean, THEY were wrong, and even I can see this.
Because they played by the rules of the bets while using the brain and even home computers (not barred here), - and without obtaining illicit or disallowed info (as it was all public and allowed info by the rules), then it was totally allowed to discern this info from the newspapers. The sports bets were assumed to be totally clean, allowed, and valid.
Remember, when placing sports bets, you pick your teams to win and at the odds that the book offers, based on allowed information and your opinion, - before the match. Bet receipts in hand, you're good, it is booked and legally enforce-able, for the most part. If I bet the Cleveland Indians to win over the Yankees, and I looked up some information on the computer, and even calculated odds on the computer - with what I was entitled to see and do, then my bet is good.

Quote: D.oz

Getting back to the OP's assertions, it is looking more and more like you are some type of info shill trying to find any (non) credible argument to convince people AP is a bad career choice.

No. Realistically speaking it IS a lousy career choice. Be honest now, few can do it, and if more than a rare few could do it you would see 6:5 on CSM everywhere overnight to shut it down. In fact, it is getting to look more and more and more that if you play by the ground rules, then you're good, (even in the end if it takes ging to the end), -- but if you breach house rules and flip the finger to the house/game play rules, you get to be gone in the end. I was ALWYAS very clear on this.. In other words, KNOW your game play rules by the playbook, to include casino table play.

Quote: D.oz

Certainly your assertions that AP's can lose their jobs catastrophically and cannot maintain a normal family life are bewildering and concerning to me.

And to me, too. I didn't put my financial well-being to a casino executive's or floorman hands back when I was a casino dealer - on their side.
You have to be WAY below the radar level, concerning both floor personnel and surveillance. If you're four payroll checks from homeless, you need to think twice before letting anyone else's signature scrawl on a payroll check determine your permanent financial security, either side of the table, if you know what I mean.

Quote: D.oz

I, in particular have had some back-offs and even back-roomings and NONE of that was able to stop me from making money as an AP and I spend more time with my family now (especially since I pulled most of them into my AP business than I ever did.)

Fine, - it pays to survive and diversify, both with income sources and with family time.
If you consider yourself in an acceptable career choice in security with the admitted back offs and back-roomings, then that's your plate.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, because it IS by the rule and fully gambling, and IMO I agree with it 100%.


In this case, yes. The house - and government - were wrong in this case. I mean, THEY were wrong, and even I can see this.
Because they played by the rules of the bets while using the brain and even home computers (not barred here), - and without obtaining illicit or disallowed info (as it was all public and allowed info by the rules), then it was totally allowed to discern this info from the newspapers. The sports bets were assumed to be totally clean, allowed, and valid.
Remember, when placing sports bets, you pick your teams to win and at the odds that the book offers, based on allowed information and your opinion, - before the match. Bet receipts in hand, you're good, it is booked and legally enforce-able, for the most part. If I bet the Cleveland Indians to win over the Yankees, and I looked up some information on the computer, and even calculated odds on the computer - with what I was entitled to see and do, then my bet is good.




No. Realistically speaking it IS a lousy career choice. Be honest now, few can do it, and if more than a rare few could do it you would see 6:5 on CSM everywhere overnight to shut it down. In fact, it is getting to look more and more and more that if you play by the ground rules, then you're good, (even in the end if it takes ging to the end), -- but if you breach house rules and flip the finger to the house/game play rules, you get to be gone in the end. I was ALWYAS very clear on this.. In other words, KNOW your game play rules by the playbook, to include casino table play.


And to me, too. I didn't put my financial well-being to a casino executive's or floorman hands back when I was a casino dealer - on their side.
You have to be WAY below the radar level, concerning both floor personnel and surveillance. If you're four payroll checks from homeless, you need to think twice before letting anyone else's signature scrawl on a payroll check determine your permanent financial security, either side of the table, if you know what I mean.



Fine, - it pays to survive and diversify, both with income sources and with family time.
If you consider yourself in an acceptable career choice in security with the admitted back offs and back-roomings, then that's your plate.

Rarity of AP's does not make it a bad career choice. A bad career choice is determined by other factors. It does make it a difficult career choice.

For many years I was a professional in Hollywood, in a niche market that less than 20 people actually made a vocation. Very few people could handle the type of work I performed. As a result, it paid very well, with me hitting close to $50,000 per month at one point. The fact is was a rarity to find someone successful in this type of work never made me feel I was working in a poor career choice field. In fact, quite the opposite! I always felt I had made a wise career choice by picking something I could grasp and master, that paid well, with few competition gunning for my position.

Being a professional baseball player, the number of people who can do it is certainly a rare instance. I hope you don't believe A-rod made a bad career choice.

In fact, if your definition of a bad career choice is something that is a rarity when it comes to being successful, then you, Paigowdan, have made even worse career choices than AP's. From what I can see, there are less number of successful game designers, who can actually feed their families, than there are AP's in this world. I personally know a LOT more AP's making a living than Casino game designers and if you look at WOO and on here, prospective game designers are actually warned off as to how much the odds are against you more than people trying to AP.

PaigowDan is the WOV equivalent of a chew toy. No matter how many people chew on him with intelligent arguments, Dan
- hears nothing and learns nothing
- keeps repeating the same squeaky noises
- and, like the painted-on facial expression of a chew toy, Dan's views never change.

If you like to chew on Dan, then this thread has been good fun. But, I am the OP, and I had posed a topic different then "does PaigowDan use correct terminology and think clearly and logically when denouncing APs?" I personally believe that chew toys become boring after the first few chews -and I feel that the process of "masticating Dan" has made this thread too boring to read.

Therefore, I am going to ignore my own thread.

Quote: gordonm888

Gordon888 and AP is the WOV equivalent of a chew toy. No matter how many people chew on it with intelligent arguments, Gordon and AP
- hears nothing and learns nothing
- keeps repeating the same squeaky AP is great noises
- and, like the painted-on facial expression of a chew toy, AP's views never change.

One can argue that AP shilling at WOV is the equivalent of a chew toy.

- it hears nothing and learns nothing, and also gets backed off.
- it keeps repeating the same +1, +1, -1, -1, 0, 0, 0 is great to do, and it's gambling!

If you like to chew on AP, Dan will respond.

But, I am NOT the OP, and I had posed a topic different then "does gordon888 use correct terminology and think clearly and logically when shilling APs?"
I personally believe that chew toys become boring after the first few chews -and I feel that the process of "masticating Gordon" has made this thread too boring to read.

Therefore, I am going to ignore Gordon's own thread.

Edit: I had parroted Gordon888's post here as I felt It was an attack on me ("chew toy"). I made some good arguments earlier, but this was his response, so I adapted his response to fit something else we were discussing.

Dan, I was not attacking you personally, and apologize if it came off that way. If you look at my previous mentions of you on this thread, I have referred to you as "a moderately successful game designer" and as "an intelligent person."

But I am expressing my frustration that my thread was hijacked by this never-ending argument - and that, IMO, you have persistently been unresponsive to logic. I am also frustrated with the rest of the forum who continue to argue with you despite the fact that neither their views or yours ever change. This entire debate has recurred over and over through many threads and is completely unproductive. For your part, you are investing an enormous amount of time writing lengthy posts on this topic but long ago reached a point where you are not convincing or persuading anyone. If you want to spend your time in this way, then that's your perogative, but I am genuinely surprised that you don't have better uses of your time.

In my experience I have found that one of the best ways of interrupting a recurring heated argument is by using humor. I find that if you can make people momentarily laugh it sometimes breaks the mindset and flow of their argument. I was trying to do that with the humorous/cute metaphor that arguing with you is like chewing on a chew toy - that was also the reason for the use of the word "masticate." I'm not insulting you - I'm using humor to try to separate the fighting dogs.

I think there are things I could learn from you and that you could learn from others (and me) as part of the normal dialogue of a forum - but no one is going to learn much of anything within the context of this endless repeating argument. Whatever you think of the quality of your arguments we would all be better off if you didn't try to provoke a fight on this topic at every opportunity -and if other people didn't continue to fight back.

Quote: gordonm888

Dan, I was not attacking you personally, and apologize if it came off that way. If you look at my previous mentions of you on this thread, I have referred to you as "a moderately successful game designer" and as "an intelligent person."

But I am expressing my frustration that my thread was hijacked by this never-ending argument - and that, IMO, you have persistently been unresponsive to logic.

No problem, and I can see how you feel that way, indeed.
But, that is also my position, - that AP is not always the way to go, that it is overly hyped here as wonderful, and if you do go AP, keep it on the down-low, because if you do proclaim its virtues, a few may scoff or downplay that POV.

We, as a gambling board, can and should see two sides of the coin, and that it should NOT be surprising at a gambling forum to hear arguments that, yes, AP is not always viewed as a pro-gambling kind of thing, and certainly not as a pro-gaming industry thing - which we rely on to be there for us to gamble.

Quote: Paigowdan

No problem, and I can see how you feel that way, indeed.
But, that is also my position, - that AP is not always the way to go, that it is overly hyped here as wonderful, and if you do go AP, keep it on the down-low, because if you do proclaim its virtues, a few may scoff or downplay that POV.

We, as a gambling board, can and should see two sides of the coin, and that it should NOT be surprising at a gambling forum to hear arguments that, yes, AP is not always viewed as a pro-gambling kind of thing, and certainly not as a pro-gaming industry thing - which we rely on to be there for us to gamble.

Dan, I think you missed the point. The thread was started as gordon was questioning whether paid casino shills are present and active on forum boards. There was no mention of AP's at all. AP's had nothing to do with the thread. Yet you derailed the thread whether you meant to or not.

Anyone just now looking at the thread for the first time should see your first post, correct or not, 5 hours in and in 2 sentences going totally off topic and staying there. Intentionally or not, you're looking like a poster boy for casino rights people monitoring gambling forum boards. I don't know how else to say that.

Quote: Paigowdan

Tom, you keep saying "it's so RARE to get backed off, then it must be okay!!! And it is so hard to prove!!"
Getting backed off or burnt out "into the surveillance book" is actually a very serious threat, catastrophic, to a good AP's lively hood, especially if you're barred from major chains.

This is where you completely contradict yourself. If these catastrophes were common, earning money from advantage play would be near impossible and a non-issue. I made the offer of watching someone spread their bets with the count in a blackjack game using the criteria you came up with and seeing what sorts of backoffs would occur. Offer is still available if you are so sure you're right.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes. For that matter, doing a few days of bartending works, doing a few gaming math jobs a month helps (life a few at this do site), driving for Uber, or writing a book, or dealing part time, also work.

Any and all of that can be done alongside earning additional money from casino games. The benefit to earning income from casino games is that there it is far greater flexibility and has so few barriers to entry. All you have to do is understand the odds and the strategy and you can earn money with little more effort than walking through the doors. Personally I also find it relaxing and often enjoyable. Can't say that about the other part time jobs I've had. Driving for Uber could be a great compliment to playing casino games, setting your own schedule and getting paid to travel from place to place around the city

Quote: Paigowdan

I'm saying, in most cases, AP is indeed fool's gold.
But instead of saying "don't let me warn you," let me say instead, "I stated my position. Good luck to you in this career. Knock yourself out, Really."

You usually include so much more, such as "This income is against the rules." Which is wrong

Quote: sammydv

Dan, I think you missed the point. The thread was started as gordon was questioning whether paid casino shills are present and active on forum boards. There was no mention of AP's at all. AP's had nothing to do with the thread

Really? No mention of AP's at all? -- The very first post contained:

Quote: gordon888

..There are some forum members (we all know who they are) who are on the WOV forums so frequently and who so consistently denounce any person who posts negative opinions about the gambling industry or any AP looking for an edge....

Followed by essentially two by-name mentions/invites, and an big opening to a discussion on the gaming industry...

Quote: SOOPOO

.... PaiGowDan does not hide who he works for, or worked for in the past. Others (Zcore) works for a casino at some high level. Face was in casino security for a while.....

and

Quote: DJTB

PaiGowDan was the first name to come to mind when reading the first post.

and you say:

Quote: sammydv

Anyone just now looking at the thread for the first time should see your first post, correct or not, 5 hours in and in 2 sentences going totally off topic and staying there. Intentionally or not, you're looking like a poster boy for casino rights people monitoring gambling forum boards. I don't know how else to say that.

So let me get this straight: AP play, and the gaming industry, shilling, with my name mentioned twice before I even joined the thread - on the first page as the very topics, -- and where many (including myself) had quickly answered the OP's question. We discussed, debated, and presenting arguments on shilling, AP play, the gaming industry, and with many voting, too.

I think the problem is that I debated, presented arguments, and discussed and explained some points of view that may be unpopular, and that some disagreed with.

Quote: TomG

You usually include so much more, such as "This income is against the rules." Which is wrong

If the income is gained through violating the rules, then it is income "against the rules."

Don't know the rules? That is another problem. You will most likely be informed of them soon enough.

Quote: SanchoPanza

If the income is gained through violating the rules, then it is income "against the rules."

Don't know the rules? That is another problem. You will most likely be informed of them soon enough.

The issue most AP's have SanchoPanza is that the rules are changed whenever someone can make a profit.

For example, a Blackjack table sets a minimum and a maximum bet, say, $10 min and $1,000 max. That is a pretty clear rule that you can place a wager, any wager, at any time within those set parameters and that is the norm for decades.

Now, card counting comes along and casinos continue to keep this clear rule, except when you make a bet within the rules, they now come out and say, "oh, wait a minute, you raised the bet because you were thinking about the cards you saw which we showed you. How dare you actually use info that we supplied. So from now on, it is against the rules to raise your bet IF you are going to probably win."

Basically, the casino will do that type of scenario any time they feel they are going to be on the losing side.

Most everyone who ever grew up surrounded by people knows that when you make a set of rules, and the people you are playing against change the rules whenever they realize you are going to win, that that is the very definition of cheating.

I.E., the casinos cheat and AP's have no choice but to ignore their rules because the casinos ignore their own rules as well by changing them at a moments notice.

Quote: Paigowdan

Really? No mention of AP's at all? -- The very first post contained:

Quote: gordon888

..There are some forum members (we all know who they are) who are on the WOV forums so frequently and who so consistently denounce any person who posts negative opinions about the gambling industry or any AP looking for an edge....

Followed by essentially two by-name mentions/invites, and an big opening to a discussion on the gaming industry...


and



and you say:

So let me get this straight: AP play, and the gaming industry, shilling, with my name mentioned twice before I even joined the thread - on the first page as the very topics, -- and where many (including myself) had quickly answered the OP's question. We discussed, debated, and presenting arguments on shilling, AP play, the gaming industry, and with many voting, too.

I think the problem is that I debated, presented arguments, and discussed and explained some points of view that may be unpopular, and that some disagreed with.

You make an earnest point, however, you did not come in and defend yourself, instead went directly into AP attack mode. The point that was danced around was are there people who watch and try to protect the casinos interests and on my own extended point protecting their own interests.
Obviously, it's an impossible question to get an answer for in reality. No one is going to openly admit such conduct. The OP may have gotten his answer already, but looking back at it, I'm not sure why it was asked.

Unfortunately, I don't think the original question can get any traction in the first place. It's like asking why isn't the green light on top of the traffic lights or sideways. There may not be any answers for that.

Quote: sammydv

You make an earnest point, however, you did not come in and defend yourself, instead went directly into AP attack mode. The point that was danced around was are there people who watch and try to protect the casinos interests and on my own extended point protecting their own interests.

No, not at all. My first post is on the first page - read it.
I discussed that people aren't paid money to shill here as a direct response to the original post.

I also discussed that the wider brick-and-motor casino industry has a general if not a complete financial disinterest in this site.

I said that in terms of this forum being an AP site, not much cutting-edge technique is discussed or is of value here, and I mentioned other sites that cover AP issues and game protection.

I mentioned that the site that the industry uses is the wizardofodds.com game repository site, where real game metrics, game play information, and statistical/mathematical information is of greater use.

Quote: Boz

As a decendant of Hungarians who came to this country many years ago after WWI due to their religious beliefs, I consider this an insult and wish to see Max addressed. I would also like justice for the horrible Cher song that I had to listen to for most of the 70's. While suspensions are an option, I propose 1 hour locked in a room with Dan debating AP vs Gambling.

See avatar. Lol...thanks, Max.

"I hear it from the people of the town, they call me..."

Looks like we are half way there to PGDan's 40 page thread!

I can't speak for the other industry informers, but I know I am certainly not here with pay. I came here to provide what information I could from the aspect of the industry I work in.

Though threads and derailments like this and other hilarious threads (a thread regarding weight loss comes to mind) keep me around.

/twocents

Good to hear from you Dods!

You got to have some funny stories you could share from Surveillance.
Just what all does get watched from all those cameras ;-?

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Good to hear from you Dods!

You got to have some funny stories you could share from Surveillance.
Just what all does get watched from all those cameras ;-?

What I want to know is who is that in Dod's Avatar.

Perhaps that answers your question about who gets watched from surveillance :)

I'm mainly here for the gambling stories. I don't even access this site from work. If I see something that gives me pause to think, then that's a bonus, but in reality, I get much more valuable intel from other casinos or Apheat / wizardofodds. I mean, this site didn't even have a murmur about the new Grosjean article until after it went mainstream, long after the industry knew about the issue with the card based craps shufflers.

As far as AP goes, I think most surveillance people have no issues with it. AP is to Surveillance as Truck Driver is to State Trooper: Job Security. Of course, we can get annoyed with people who have been backed off, but still try to sneak in, and I have no problem with giving them an 86 and then having them arrested on the next time back. Other than dealing with the insolent ones, I think it's a fun job.

Before you all pile on, no, I'm not equating AP with breaking the law, just an analogy here about job security folks.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Good to hear from you Dods!

You got to have some funny stories you could share from Surveillance.
Just what all does get watched from all those cameras ;-?

I'm glad I'm able to poke my head in once in a while. I should be home in a short time, and my activity here should be a little more constant at that time.

I'm sure there's plenty I could share. There isn't much I haven't seen in the casino; from drug usage, drunken shenanigans, all sorts of illegal activity, seeing partners lie and cheat on their partners (through texts), all sorts of emergencies, deaths, you name it. Might have to narrow down the field, though I'm not sure this thread is appropriate for a venue of stories ;)

Quote: darkoz

What I want to know is who is that in Dod's Avatar.

Perhaps that answers your question about who gets watched from surveillance :)

If I knew the name my friend, I would share it! Most of the avatars I have I get from The Chive. My database is back in Canada, so I can't change anything.

I can say that I have never found it tasteful to ogle at people through the cameras. I find it quite rude and I do my best to ensure my staff don't do it either.

In person though, well that's a different story.

So let's see.
A good play might be to bring the Swedish Volleyball team to the casino with me, all in itty bitty bikinis, as I sit down to do some serious spread on some serious card counting?
Might have to bring some eye candy for those other guys/gals in surveillance as well ;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

So let's see.
A good play might be to bring the Swedish Volleyball team to the casino with me, all in itty bitty bikinis, as I sit down to do some serious spread on some serious card counting?
Might have to bring some eye candy for those other guys/gals in surveillance as well ;-)

Please do. I haven't run down a card counter in years, but I might have to if I see that.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Good to hear from you Dods!

You got to have some funny stories you could share from Surveillance.
Just what all does get watched from all those cameras ;-?

Will you PLEASE STOP highjacking threads, just take it to another board please.
I see that he answered and completely went off topic. Just move them to a 2f gadfly board or something. Or surveillance or whatever. Surveillance is a fascinating topic that SHOULD have it's own board.

Mods, please just plain and simple remove the next whatever posts from 2f and dodson instead of letting them continue.
That's part of the problem on this site, there is no off topic report link or any way to self monitor this crap.
It doesn't matter if the on topic posts have slowed down, not everyone sees everything every day to respond.

If anyone is paid by casinos to be here to monitor things, they'd be wise not to answer.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

If anyone is paid by casinos to be here to monitor things, they'd be wise not to answer.

That's the conclusion I came to after trying to decipher Dan's posts. It was a tough question that doesn't look like it'd be easy to get answers. Interesting question, but how does one discuss it without exposing sensitive information.
Personally, I don't think anyone paid by the casinos needs to hide, as they're not getting secret info from this site and just coming on debating openly from the casino's side of it would be great.

Unless casino personal are trying to covertly gain knowledge from people here.

I'm sure guys like Dan, Dods, Zcore, Eliot, etc., find much helpful info whether it's AP stuff or not.

Quote: sammydv

That's the conclusion I came to after trying to decipher Dan's posts. It was a tough question that doesn't look like it'd be easy to get answers. Interesting question, but how does one discuss it without exposing sensitive information.
Personally, I don't think anyone paid by the casinos needs to hide, as they're not getting secret info from this site and just coming on debating openly from the casino's side of it would be great.

Unless casino personal are trying to covertly gain knowledge from people here.

Well. looking at where this is going, I give up. We'll never stick to the OP question because I think people just thought it was a silly question and decided to turn it into "lets wrangle with Dan" thread and funny stories.
Have fun with it.

Quote: sammydv

Will you PLEASE STOP highjacking threads, just take it to another board please.
I see that he answered and completely went off topic. Just move them to a 2f gadfly board or something. Or surveillance or whatever. Surveillance is a fascinating topic that SHOULD have it's own board.

Mods, please just plain and simple remove the next whatever posts from 2f and dodson instead of letting them continue.
That's part of the problem on this site, there is no off topic report link or any way to self monitor this crap.
It doesn't matter if the on topic posts have slowed down, not everyone sees everything every day to respond.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Will you stop trying to police people's posts, please? We don't censor or delete for having a conversation, usually don't delete regardless. They're not far enough off topic to be considered hijacking the thread, or splitting it. It's a conversation. Surveillance is weighing in on the OP. Block 2F if he annoys you.