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Face
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January 8th, 2011 at 4:51:13 AM permalink
Quote: Headlock

My intent when I started this thread was to find some evidence that casinos are subject to oversight that would deter cheating. I've played a considerable amount of time in Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Colorado, Illinois, Minnesota, South Dakota, Florida and Nevada. I believe each of these states has a gaming commission, control board, whatever they call it, but not once have I seen a representative of gaming control checking dice or cards.

So I will ask again, does anyone have recent evidence that gaming control, unannounced, checks the dice, the cards, the video poker machines while they are in operation in the casino?

Surely there must be someone among the thousands of visitors to this forum that has worked for a gaming commission or in casino management.



In the casino I work in, the dice are checked upon opening for play, whether its the table that opens or the dice packs are opened. A micrometer is used for the dimentions, a balance for, well, the balance. They are ALWAYS checked under these two circumstances. Occasionally, a member of the Nation's (Nation referring to the Indian tribe) Gaming Authority Agent will randomly conducted a check, sometimes at the conclusion of the game, sometimes in the middle of an active table. If we had a weakness in our system I'd say it'd be that dice thrown off the table aren't immediately and always checked, but I'd say we do a pretty good job of keeping the dice fair. Any nicked, gouged, or repeatedly-thrown-off-the-table dice are replaced, with the same set of checks and balances occuring.

Our card checking pretty much mirrors the norm, where they're splayed out and checked upon the opening of a deck, the replacement of a card due to spill or damage, or in the case a card or cards are dropped from the table. Since cards and decks are replaced so frequently at our place (every 4 hours for most games) rarely does our Authority Agents check mid-game. However, EVERY card is checked within 24hours of it being removed from the table for everything from manufacturers issues (one ways, ink blots) to cheating markers (daubs, crimps, etc) Issues there are surely handled in the case of purposeful marks, where the entire life of those cards in play are reviewed by Surveillance and the marker of such cards identified and tracked. Repeated manufacturers defects result in us changing manufacturers (a pain in the ass, but it has happened and probably will again)

I'm not sure of our total slot/VP machine count, but we have 33 table games, the rest slots and VP, and our gaming floor is maybe the area of two football fields, to give you an idea. In addition to the individual checks these machine receive during a slot project (changing paytables, EPROMs, denom's etc) every single machine is checked (slot verification project) MONTHLY to ensure the machine is set to specs and regs. It is an incredibly tedious and monotonous procedure that any of our Agents cringe about at mere mention, but assuredly they do take place in my establishment.

Take this as you will. Is my casino 'the norm'? I dont know because its my only experience in gaming period, I know not AC, NV, other Indian Gaming, other State Gaming, nothing. And just because it's done, does that negate any chance of hijinks? After all, these are PEOPLE running these tests. On one hand our Agents are often PT or retired law enforcement (Sheriffs, Troopers, etc) and generally good, honorable, stand-up guys and gals. I'd like to believe their history and the fact that people generally prefer to do a good job keeps us on the right side of wrong. However, I realize they're PEOPLE, and people do funny things sometimes. I guess it depends on your cynicism, and I don't mean that as a jab. Other than that, I'd have to side with the members of the forum who feel that 'they take enough legally, why risk the hassle for more' with the exception of dealers taking for themselves, which we just recently caught and punished. Heavily.
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Face
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:03:10 AM permalink
And shoot, forgot this one point. Not sure who mentioned it first, but who ever said it was right. In most cases you'd need an extraordinary amount of cooperation from multiple, unassociated departments to pull of a scam to their benefit. I'm sure a Slot Tech could rig a machine to screw you over as the overseeing Agent might be ignorant of the codes and buttons he's pressing, but for what purpose? He would not nor could not reap any benefit, other than delighting in being a sociopath. In any case, anything he does is recorded and it wouldn't be long (slot verifications every month) before the issue was discovered and that guy canned.

Any 'for profit' scam would be so beyond difficult, IMO, because you can only take so much without being noticed, and once you cut that between 3-4 dealers, the Floor, The Pit Boss, 1-4 Nation Agents and the 3-6 guys in Surveillance (all of which you'd need on board) it just wouldn't seem logical that 9 - 16 people would risk comfy, cozy, cushy, regular paying, well benefited jobs for an extra $hundo. I think you're FAR more vulnerable, and IMO still a low probability, of being shortchanged by a dealer, whether for his benefit or his ignorance.
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FleaStiff
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January 8th, 2011 at 6:31:49 AM permalink
Quote: Headlock

So I will ask again, does anyone have recent evidence that gaming control, unannounced, checks the dice, the cards, the video poker machines while they are in operation in the casino?

Most card checks are by the casino and are performed after a deck has been in play but I have seen a Gaming Agent accompanied by suits perform a card check just as a blackjack game was about to begin. I've spoken with a woman who had only recently left her job as a Slot Auditor a position she held while awaiting Nevada verification of her out of state professional credentials. She finally relocated for personal reasons unrelated to her profession or her Slot Auditing job.

Card checks were about ten years ago. Slot auditor was about five years ago in Colorado but had left her Nevada job only recently.

New Mexico probably couldn't verify if the Sun had risen. New Mexico casinos actually use dealers to perform the work that in Nevada is performed by state prisoners, that is the assembling of used decks into the proper sequence and shipping them off to be retired. New Mexico oversight is non-existent.

Nevada casinos look for marked cards. New Mexico dealers probably wouldn't know a marked card if it bit them! (And if a New Mexico dealer did in fact get bitten by a marked card, he wouldn't even report it until "Manana".)
SanchoPanza
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January 8th, 2011 at 7:59:43 AM permalink
Quote: Lhornbk70

As far as 3 card shuffling machines being rigged, there's one very big problem with that idea. The machine can't know how many players are at the table at any given time, so it can't really know which groups of cards should be bad and which group of cards will go to the dealer and end up winning.


Any good conspiracy theorist here can tell you that there has to be a hidden button where the dealer can punch in the number of players.
OneAngryDwarf
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January 8th, 2011 at 9:25:38 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Any good conspiracy theorist here can tell you that there has to be a hidden button where the dealer can punch in the number of players.



Would be extremely difficult to hide said button, since the dealer must keep his hands above the table at all times. Of course, that wouldn't stop the floor manager from being able to enter the number of players on the tableside computers at some casinos.
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MathExtremist
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January 8th, 2011 at 10:10:03 AM permalink
I'm pretty sure the procedure is that when dealing, the shoe spits out hands of 3 cards at a time, which the dealer delivers to players and himself in turn. Each new hand is spit out automatically after the last one is removed. That means after the dealer has take his hand, there's another 3 cards sitting in the tray, but the dealer doesn't take that. Instead he presses a button that causes the rest of the deck to come out of the shuffler. I believe the shuffler also counts the remaining cards at this time and alarms if they didn't add up to 52.

This is for the older shufflers, though. Some of the newer ones not only know which hands are going to players or the dealer, but what the cards are. Both Shuffle Master and TCS John Huxley have card-reading shoes.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Croupier
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January 8th, 2011 at 3:36:46 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I'm pretty sure the procedure is that when dealing, the shoe spits out hands of 3 cards at a time, which the dealer delivers to players and himself in turn. Each new hand is spit out automatically after the last one is removed. That means after the dealer has take his hand, there's another 3 cards sitting in the tray, but the dealer doesn't take that. Instead he presses a button that causes the rest of the deck to come out of the shuffler. I believe the shuffler also counts the remaining cards at this time and alarms if they didn't add up to 52.

This is for the older shufflers, though. Some of the newer ones not only know which hands are going to players or the dealer, but what the cards are. Both Shuffle Master and TCS John Huxley have card-reading shoes.



Correct ME, up until the second card check. As far as I am aware, They only count on the way in, as once the correct number of 3 card hands are spat out, (8 max) the rest of the cards are spat out in 3 chunks. It could count them and I could be wrong.

If there is a "hidden button" to punch the number of players, no one has told me where it is in three years of dealing.
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MathExtremist
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January 8th, 2011 at 4:14:13 PM permalink
Quote: Croupier

Correct ME, up until the second card check. As far as I am aware, They only count on the way in, as once the correct number of 3 card hands are spat out, (8 max) the rest of the cards are spat out in 3 chunks. It could count them and I could be wrong.

If there is a "hidden button" to punch the number of players, no one has told me where it is in three years of dealing.



Assuming you're using the Ace shuffler, I don't think there are too many user controls on the machine. There's the green button that ends the hand and releases the rest of the cards, and then a few buttons to set the mode of the machine (3CP, UTH, 4CP, LIR, etc.) I don't have the manual so I don't know all the details, but no dealer procedure I've ever seen requires the dealer to touch any user control on the shuffler between hands, other than to start a new round.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Croupier
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:11:10 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Assuming you're using the Ace shuffler, I don't think there are too many user controls on the machine. There's the green button that ends the hand and releases the rest of the cards, and then a few buttons to set the mode of the machine (3CP, UTH, 4CP, LIR, etc.) I don't have the manual so I don't know all the details, but no dealer procedure I've ever seen requires the dealer to touch any user control on the shuffler between hands, other than to start a new round.



ours are so old school they only have 3 controls. One is at the front to empty the cards on 3 card. Another is on top and clears the card loader. These controls are duplicated on either side of the machine for left or right handed set ups. The other controls are as you mentioned for chaging the game set up on the machine.
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boymimbo
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January 8th, 2011 at 6:42:13 PM permalink
Once again, use common sense. I can absolute see a casino without any regulation in a non-competitive environment cheating. For the land-based casinos, first, they are governed tightly by gaming regulation. If dealers or any casino employee knew they were cheating the players, many would have divulged those secrets by now because dealers quit -- they are not part of a mob. It is far more likely for the casino employee to cheat the casino. The dealer gets more tips and if they colluding, then they are receiving a great deal of the net profit for the player.

Casinos make money because they have the mathematical advantage -- all of the time. They don't need to cheat. They certainly don't need to worry about your piddly 10 dollar bet at the 3 card player. They are certainly more likely to sweating the action of the 100,000 bacarrat player. A few extra straight flushes at 3 card means absolutely NOTHING to the casino. Changing the odds from 1-4-6 to 1-3-6 on the pairs plus and making that extra 5 percent on every pairs plus bet through the whole casino however is HUGE. If they were cheating you, why not offer the best pay table in town at 1-4-7 or 1-3-7 and have the shuffler take care of the cheat?

Crazy.
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