Pitch a bitch. Complain about the Affordable Care Act here, or whatever else is bothering you.
Women are very subject to the same eyeballing. We check breasts, cellulose, scars, sag, all sorts of sins clothes hide. As a couple of other people noted, it's not overtly sexual; it's a peek at the forbidden fruit. In a lot of cases, it's a boost or a hit to our own self-image, depending on what we see. But, gay or straight, it's not a come-on to be publicly nude in a nude setting like a community shower. The Europeans have a lot to teach Americans about this culturally. I would hope the NFL would approach the subject the way the White House did; "here, take your pictures and write your stories at the start; the kids will pose. Then leave them alone to do their work." And otherwise not make an issue of it, either in the draft or within the team. The vast number of homosexuals are not interested in hitting on straight men, so why straight men fear the remote possibility is beyond me. Maybe they fear they're NOT attractive enough that another man would indicate that he wants them?
Quote: boymimboStatistically that is true, but of course most gay people will shy away from sports due to the macho astigma associated with the sport, which is why this is important.
That said, he shouldn't get special treatment just because he is gay.
I buy part of your premise but not all of it. I do accept that the "macho" part of sports pushes many gay men away. Seen it happen not in sports, but at a job where the guy lasted about a week in the stock room but could not handle the minimal physical aspects of it (if I can handle that anyone can, believe me!) nor just the atmosphere. They put him up front with the cashiers which was 80% female and most of the rest either high schoolers just starting or other suspect guys. Looking back the one had so many stereotypes but some fairly slight that you had to wonder. So I can see some just not fitting in at football mentally or physically.
OTOH, as EvenBob has stated on many occasions, gay males get attracted to all-male places like bugs to light at night. Additionally, if you believe that black males have higher homosexuality rates than whites, which more and more seems a dirty little secret, then it evens just a touch. To say the homosexual rate in the NFL is less than half in the general population would be pushing it IMHO. To take 1200 guys and say none is gay is really pushing it.
We can agree he should not get special treatment, but he will. The media will give push all the way, same as they did with black players. Now that blacks have made it to all levels of the NFL except ownership they need another cause.
Quote: AZDuffmanOTOH, as EvenBob has stated on many occasions, gay males get attracted to all-male places like bugs to light at night.
Oh dear god, if EvenBob is the gay expert around here, we're all screwed.
Because the Internet does it a lot better.Quote: rob45This is not a convincing argument.
How would one prove that allowing naked individuals of the same sex, yet differing sexual orientations, in the same room does not lead to "legalized" voyeurism?
Where is this implication?Quote: beachbumbabsThe laugh in this conversation, for me, is the implication that only gay men check out other mens' junk when able.
So if a heterosexual male expresses desire to use the women's locker room, then the intentions are not to be considered "overtly sexual", but rather merely "peeking at the forbidden fruit"?Quote: beachbumbabsAs a couple of other people noted, it's not overtly sexual; it's a peek at the forbidden fruit.
If an individual peeps through the window of another's house and obtains sexual stimulation from such, is that individual considered a voyeur, or is s/he merely "peeking at forbidden fruit"?
For the sake of the NFL, let us hope that it's a boost to self-image; however, you have already stated the obvious caveat-"depending on what we see."Quote: beachbumbabsIn a lot of cases, it's a boost or a hit to our own self-image, depending on what we see.
Were I to own an NFL team, I would not want to knowingly introduce a situation that has strong potential of lowering morale of the team as a whole. Low morale leads to low performance. Low performance easily leads to decreased revenues.
I agree, but the issue is more than whether it is considered a "come-on" or not; it involves socially-accepted levels of comfort. Just because an individual has no fear of a situation does not mean that the situation is comfortable. Were I an owner of a team, I would definitely want the majority of the team to feel comfortable.Quote: beachbumbabsBut, gay or straight, it's not a come-on to be publicly nude in a nude setting like a community shower.
So, how much work is getting done?Quote: beachbumbabsI would hope the NFL would approach the subject the way the White House did; "here, take your pictures and write your stories at the start; the kids will pose. Then leave them alone to do their work."
I highly doubt the members of an NFL team "fear" another member, except in those cases that the fear has been justified through precedent. However, they can feel uncomfortable.Quote: beachbumbabsAnd otherwise not make an issue of it, either in the draft or within the team. The vast number of homosexuals are not interested in hitting on straight men, so why straight men fear the remote possibility is beyond me.
Quote: SOOPOOI guess I'm a homodon'tcare.
Great line!!!
Consenting adults should be able to do what ever they want with whoever they want.
Just don't flaunt it in my face, whether you are hetero or homo, show some class.
Quote: boymimboWhy does Tebow need defending? He has God on his side.
Isn't the Bible suppose to be "The Word" and the "The Truth"
It says there that Christians will be persecuted. So it's the word of God coming true. And I think it said Christians who are persecuted will be rewarded.
Check and check. Tebow persecuted and will be rewarded. Homosexuals will suffer probably. All's good. Right.
Also Beethoven needs to be for the Fairness Doctrine since he has stated he isn't for it but has gone on an on about unfair media anyway.
Aw shucks. The Doctrine required viewpoints like many he complains about in liberal media to have some opposing viewpoint shared. He is so INCONSISTENT I'm surprised his head doesn't explode from the incongruity.
+1Quote: AZDuffmanI think he is trying to make the point in the difference in how anti-gay vs anti-christian people and institutions are treated.
As usual, AZ gets it...the libs don't. Big surprise. lol
You know, I had never even thought about it that way. Excellent example!Quote: AZDuffmanCase in point, the Obama Administration has held up foreign aid to countries where treatment of gays is not up to their standards. Meanwhile, Christians are being driven out of Egypt yet that country keeps getting their huge aid checks with hardly a peep on the subject.
Yeah, and I'll be sure to use that same excuse when the cheerleaders refuse to let me shower with them.Quote: ams288This made me laugh.
You don't have anything to worry about.
We're not into you.
Just like insecure cheerleaders who are worried about people staring at their boobs, huh?Quote: ams288Insecure straight guys are just going to have to keep worrying that people are staring at their junk.
I wouldn't have a problem with this at all, except for the fact that the mainstream media continually claims to be perfectly unbiased. And I'm not talking about shows like Rachel Maddow or Al Sharpton. Those are opinion shows, and I have no problem with them spouting off their opinions. My problem is with the "objective" news reporters like Andrea Mitchell, Soledad O'Brien, Dan Rather, etc. These people are incredibly biased, yet the average viewer (who does not keep up with politics) is left thinking that they're not.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAnyway, yes, real, unbiased news is dead.
Also, people love bringing up Fox News, yet they exaggerate about them. Looking at the media as a whole, I believe Pew did a study on the 2012 campaign which examined all the pro-Obama/anti-Obama stories and compared them with the pro-Romney/anti-Romney stories. The difference in coverage was unbelievable, yet some people out there continue to make excuses. It's pathetic.
As for the doofus who vigorously defended Michael Sam, he's a hypocritical moron. Would he (or any of his other comrades) ever say that someone like Tebow should be "celebrated"? Doubt it.
+1Quote: rob45So if a heterosexual male expresses desire to use the women's locker room, then the intentions are not to be considered "overtly sexual", but rather merely "peeking at the forbidden fruit"?
I find it curious that none of the libs here addressed my previous question, which was, "If gay guys are allowed to shower with men, then can I shower with the cheerleaders? If not, why not?"
Still waiting...
Don't hold your breath.Quote: Beethoven9thI find it curious that none of the libs here addressed my previous question, which was, "If gay guys are allowed to shower with men, then can I shower with the cheerleaders? If not, why not?"
Quote: ams288Oh dear god, if EvenBob is the gay expert around here, we're all screwed.
Just repeating what I was told by older Gay
men who came in my bar. They said any
club or organization that's all men is where
they went to meet other Gay men. Think
about how many there are, especially the
military. I knew two men who were officers
in the AF in the 50's, and they both said they
never got so much 'action' in their lives.
Quote: Beethoven9th
I find it curious that none of the libs here addressed my previous question, which was, "If gay guys are allowed to shower with men, then can I shower with the cheerleaders? If not, why not?"
Still waiting...
Of course you could, why not? At least, in my societal vision you could.
Quote: Mission146Of course you could, why not? At least, in my societal vision you could.
I am starting to like your societal vision.
Mission for president?
Quote: rxwineSigns on showers, bathrooms don't say a word about sexual preference, it is gender on the sign usually.
Exactly, so why has society chosen to separate the genders in these areas?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI am starting to like your societal vision.
Mission for president?
Thank you, but, if you are a Democrat, Republican, Independent, Socialist, Libertarian, or otherwise sane, you will disagree adamantly with my death penalty views.
Quote: rob45Exactly, so why has society chosen to separate the genders in these areas?
No argument from me, I'm with Mission on this.
For instance, some college campuses went full co-ed in the dorms for that matter. Some are still segregated by sexes. Some have gone back on forth on this issue probably.
I have no idea how the courts look at it.
I don't care if ya'll want to shower with cheerleaders. Let us all know what happens if you do.
Looked this up.
How do nudists perceive sexual attraction?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070716230438AAg2SxH
Quote:
It's no secret that a lot of guys (and girls ) get sexually attracted to a person they see as "hot" and wonder what he/she would look like naked, in bed, etc, and most of the time get turned on.
But what about nudists?
I've heard nudists defend their position by saying that there's no malice/perversion in nudity or being a nudist. That it's all clean fun, no sexual thoughts involved.
Not that I have anything against them, it's just that I'm just curious to what extent nudist hold to that belief. And I'm especially wondering about the teen nudists, like the ones in Vermont. Because we all know that as teens our hormones skyrocket.
Is nudism all clean and innocent fun among nudists? Or are there a considerable amount of, how do we say, "wolves in sheep's clothing" among them?
7 years ago
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I am a nudist. (I 'm naked right now as a matter of fact.) I am an athletic woman in my 20's. I work hard to look good, just like just about everyone else my age and when I'm out jogging or at the gym I notice the guys looking at me, so I guess it is working. :) I check out cute guys, too, and like everyone else I wonder what they might look like naked. And when my girlfriends and I get together we share stories about our boyfriends and what they really do look like naked.
What I am getting at is that nudists are no different that everyone else. The thing that we realize is that simple nudity does not equal sexual attraction. Like someone else said, when you think about what someone looks like naked that means you already have the attraction--generally the attraction doesn't come from the nudity. And for the record: quite often the actual nude, once seen for the first time, doesn't quite meet the expectations from your fantasies. :)
It is also untrue that nudists don't find sexual attraction in nudity. We are human too...I've seen guys I've talked on nude beaches to get hard when they look at me. This is an incredibly embarrassing situation for them, but as long as they handle themselves with dignity it doesn't bother me--I know it is just human nature (and sometimes its kind of a turn on). I just try to do what I can to ease their embarrassment and usually after a few minutes we can laugh about it. That or the guy takes off as fast as he can!
As for teens-most people do not get into nudism in their teens. There is too much going on with the body and with societal pressures that teenagers don't open up to nudism. Most teen nudists have been brought up in nudist families and have been exposed to nudity their entire life to the point where it doesn't phase them, hormones or not.
Long story short, nudists are people too. We too want to get a peak at the cute guy or girl and we too comment on what we see. We can also be as judgmental as our textile peers and like our peers we usually feel bad about that. We go to strip clubs and look at porn. In general, though, just the presence of nudity does not turn us on. Nudity is a very small piece of the attraction puzzle. This is something you figure out on your first trip to a nude beach.
7 years ago
I didn't reply because I didn't have a problem with that. If you want to shower with women then by all means, knock yourself out.Quote: Mission146Of course you could, why not? At least, in my societal vision you could.
There is a nudie portion of beach at Robert Moses. I'll check it out next time that I'm there. Robert Moses State Park is my favorite beach on Long Island. Just don't expect a reply about my findings for a few months.Quote: 1BBAnyone been to a nude beach? Count the proportion of men to women and get back to me.
Quote: Mission146Thank you, but, if you are a Democrat, Republican, Independent, Socialist, Libertarian, or otherwise sane, you will disagree adamantly with my death penalty views.
Yeah, like the president has that much power....
Run on the issues that people care about. Like showering with cheerleaders.
Quote: s2dbakerThere is a nudie portion of beach at Robert Moses. I'll check it out next time that I'm there. Robert Moses State Park is my favorite beach on Long Island. Just don't expect a reply about my findings for a few months.
Moonstone Beach in Rhode Island was a nude beach years ago and it was almost all guys. I don't know it's status now because it was a nesting area for the piping plover.
Quote: rxwineNo argument from me, I'm with Mission on this.Quote: rob45Exactly, so why has society chosen to separate the genders in these areas?Quote: rxwineSigns on showers, bathrooms don't say a word about sexual preference, it is gender on the sign usually.
I did not ask you for an argument. I did not ask for your opinion. I asked you to explain why our society has chosen to have specific instances of separation of genders.
For instance, some college campuses went full co-ed in the dorms for that matter. Some are still segregated by sexes. Some have gone back on forth on this issue probably.
I have no idea how the courts look at it.
Please give me your definition of "full" coed.
To the best of my knowledge, coed dormitories are to be defined as allowing both sexes to share the same building. Individual dorms (sleeping quarters) are still segregated by sex, as are the restrooms and shower areas.
If you know of individual cases that prove otherwise, please feel free to include them as being relevant to the question.
I don't care if ya'll want to shower with cheerleaders. Let us all know what happens if you do.
In my younger days, it was wanting to take things further than merely showering with them, but I consider myself unable to handle that much excitement at once now.
Rest assured, both then and now, the situation would not even be considered until consent was obtained from all individuals involved.
More specifically, the cheerleaders would not be forced into a situation that made any of them feel uncomfortable.
The occupation is one that requires undressing and being exposed to others.
In our hypothetical situation, not only are the cheerleaders forced to undress/shower in front of individuals which are assumed to have no sexual preference for any of the others in the room, they are now forced to do the same in front of others that characteristically do have sexual preference for others in the room.
The question is simple, as is the answer.
Your refusal to answer indicates that you either truly do not understand the question, or you do understand the question, yet disagree with the obvious answer and do not wish to elaborate on your disagreement.
Quote: rob45Exactly, so why has society chosen to separate the genders in these areas?
When I went to University, our dorm was coed, all the way through to the bathrooms and the showers. That is, the bathroom (with multiple stalls) was shared and right next to each other. The showers were also directly next to other and were coed. It was an interesting year. (University College, University of Toronto). It still is that way.
University College and its dorms is the only college within the University (there are 9 colleges within the University) where that happens. The other 8 are 'segregated' at least in the bathroom and shower area. St. Michael's College is completely segregated, as one might imagine.
Quote: s2dbakerThere is a nudie portion of beach at Robert Moses. I'll check it out next time that I'm there. Robert Moses State Park is my favorite beach on Long Island. Just don't expect a reply about my findings for a few months.
Wreck Beach in Vancouver next to UBC is all nude. The proportion was about 50/50. I went a couple of times when I went there and was a hell of a lot insecure walking around naked. Normally, I would take a book and try to find a quiet part of the beach and just ogle. Remember that about 10% of the female population looks appealing naked. The second (and last time) that I went I hit jackpot -- a group of female strippers set up camp about 15 feet away from me (apparently men don't like tan lines) and I spend the next couple of hours getting unevenly tanned.
It takes effort to get down and back from the beach as there is about 400 steps to get down and back and insures a minimum fitness rating.
I'm far too conservative to do that now.
Quote: boymimboRemember that about 10% of the female population looks appealing naked. .
Lol…..You must be reasonably young. I'm in my late 50's so 25% of the female population looks appealing naked.
Quote: rob45.
I did not ask you for an argument. I did not ask for your opinion. I asked you to explain why our society has chosen to have specific instances of separation of genders.
Custom and belief.
If you believe women are too sexually irresistible unless they are covered up head to toe in cloth you have certain beliefs and customs.
If you're looking at old National Geographic's where women ran around topless in just regular day to day activities in some cultures (which weren't perverted by religious conversion of modesty probably yet) you have other beliefs and customs.
If you're showering on the beach in a communal shower in a nudist colony you have other beliefs and customs.
Heterosexual men are accustomed to certain things, again by custom. All the urinals could be mounted back to back (plumbing into the floor) in the middle of the public bathroom so men would face each other while they urinate. I don't think too many men would be comfortable with that whether there were ever gay men in the room or not.
But you know what, just like going into another culture, if that was the norm, you would probably just accept it.
Quote: rxwineBut you know what, just like going into another culture, if that was the norm, you would probably just accept it.
Absolutely.
Were I to go into another culture, I would accept the mores of that group; such is to be expected from any outside visitor.
I would never be so presumptuous as to enter a group and expect them to accept my new norms.
"...she [Welter] almost certainly became the first player to suit up in the same locker room as the cheerleaders."
I'm curious, why hasn't she received the same type of criticism as Jonathan Vilma (who was blasted by libs for his comments about showering with gays)?
And why does she feel the need to suit up & shower with the cheerleaders in the first place? How come she doesn't suit up & shower with the guys instead? No one's gonna look at her, and she's just being paranoid, right?
Quote: Beethoven9thAnd why does she feel the need to suit up & shower with the cheerleaders in the first place? How come she doesn't suit up & shower with the guys instead? No one's gonna look at her, and she's just being paranoid, right?
More importantly, who cares?
Quote: ams288More importantly, who cares?
Intellectually honest people.
Quote: Beethoven9thIntellectually honest people.
Are you claiming the mantle of intellectual honesty? Retroactively? From now on and not just selectively? If you don't agree with the below definition, post one of what you think it is.
Quote:Intellectual honesty is an applied method of problem solving in academia, characterized by an unbiased, honest attitude, which can be demonstrated in a number of different ways, including but not limited to:
One's personal beliefs do not interfere with the pursuit of truth;
Relevant facts and information are not purposefully omitted even when such things may contradict one's hypothesis;
Facts are presented in an unbiased manner, and not twisted to give misleading impressions or to support one view over another;
References, or earlier work, are acknowledged where possible, and plagiarism is avoided.
Intentionally committed fallacies in debates and reasoning are sometimes called intellectual dishonesty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_honesty
Quote: Beethoven9thIntellectually honest people.
Also, creepers who just want to shower with cheerleaders. lol
Quote: rxwineAre you claiming the mantle of intellectual honesty?
Absolutely. Guys on the left (like thecesspit & Mission) and guys on the right (like me & AZ) are intellectually honest people. Guys like [names withheld] are not.
Quote: ams288Also, creepers who just want to shower with cheerleaders straight men. lol
Fixed!
Quote: Beethoven9thQuote: ams288Also, creepers who just want to shower with cheerleaders straight men. lol
Fixed!
*facepalm*
I don't think insecure straight guys like you realize how easy it is for a gay guy to get laid.
Seriously, with all the hookup apps and stuff nowadays, we have sex at our fingertips 24/7. We have no need to go to the gym to stare at fat old naked men in the shower.
Quote: ams288*facepalm*
I don't think insecure straight guys like you women realize how easy it is for a gay straight guy to get laid.
Seriously, with all the hookup apps and stuff nowadays, we have sex at our fingertips 24/7. We have no need to go to the gym to stare at fat old naked men women in the shower.
Fixed again!
Quote: Beethoven9thQuote: ams288*facepalm*
I don't think insecure straight guys like you women realize how easy it is for a gay straight guy to get laid.
Seriously, with all the hookup apps and stuff nowadays, we have sex at our fingertips 24/7. We have no need to go to the gym to stare at fat old naked men women in the shower.
Fixed again!
And you're the intellectually honest person..... yeesh.
Hey! I resemble that remark!Quote: ams288We have no need to go to the gym to stare at fat old naked men in the shower.
Quote: boymimboWreck Beach in Vancouver next to UBC is all nude. The proportion was about 50/50. I went a couple of times when I went there and was a hell of a lot insecure walking around naked.
.
I went to the nude beach a lot in the 70's with
my girlfriend. It always amazed me that so
many fat ugly old people want to take their
clothes off in public. It was disgusting most
of the time.
Quote: ams288And you're the intellectually honest person..... yeesh.
Ah yes, I really dislike intellectual dishonesty, so I always make sure not to be guilty of it myself. I do think that you're confusing 'intellectual honesty' with 'mockery' though. Do I mock people? Of course! That's what I do...hehehehe ;)
Quote: Beethoven9thAbsolutely. Guys on the left (like thecesspit & Mission) and guys on the right (like me & AZ) are intellectually honest people. Guys like [names withheld] are not.
Most of the time you sound more like Fox commentary than Fox News, just for example. And I'm giving Fox News the benefit of the doubt as being "fair and balanced".
Quote: rxwineMost of the time you sound more like Fox commentary than Fox News
Me? Aw shucks, you just made me blush. Thanks for the compliment! =)
Quote: Beethoven9thQuote: ams288*facepalm*
I don't think insecure straight guys like you women realize how easy it is for a gay straight guy to get laid.
Seriously, with all the hookup apps and stuff nowadays, we have sex at our fingertips 24/7. We have no need to go to the gym to stare at fat old naked men women in the shower.
Fixed again!
If it makes you feel any better, our tournament goalie is a girl, and 100% of the time she is in our locker room with us. I've showered in front of her scores of times. For her, it's either get dressed alone, or come down where there's beer and discussion. Beer wins, every time.
None of us care, so it's allowed. If a teammate is a prude, he is free to wait until she leaves, or prevent her from entering. Simple. So if you want to shower with cheerleaders, just ask them. If they say sure, you're in business.
Quote: Beethoven9thMe? Aw shucks, you just made me blush. Thanks for the compliment! =)
I would make this my first point of contention against your self-assessment of intellectual honesty. Even many FOX supporters won't defend the opinion part of Fox as unbiased. It's been stated on the forum even in the form of defending Fox News against the opinion shows on Fox.
She showers in front of the guys??Quote: FaceIf it makes you feel any better, our tournament goalie is a girl, and 100% of the time she is in our locker room with us. I've showered in front of her scores of times. For her, it's either get dressed alone, or come down where there's beer and discussion. Beer wins, every time.
Cool. :)
Quote: rxwineI would make this my first point of contention against your self-assessment of intellectual honesty
You're confusing 'intellectualy honesty' with 'unbiased', my friend. Duh
Quote: Beethoven9thYou're confusing 'intellectualy honesty' with 'unbiased', my friend. Duh
You can't have biased honesty because it will only present one side. That's honesty, not intellectual honesty.
edit: or will be lopsided. It may present some of the other side.
