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AxelWolf
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August 12th, 2014 at 11:10:47 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

He said the big six payoff was 45-1. Its not Vegas then, probably Midwest.

Good catch. explains a lot
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ontariodealer
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August 12th, 2014 at 11:47:19 PM permalink
hard to believe this thread has gone on and on and on....perhaps the final answer is those who come for some entertainment and get a little from their dealer should tip...those who are AP do not need anything to cut into their bottom line so they should not tip.....those who are just cheap pricks and do not tip anywhere should just play, stiff and walk away.
get second you pig
AxelWolf
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August 13th, 2014 at 12:15:42 AM permalink
Quote: ontariodealer

hard to believe this thread has gone on and on and on....perhaps the final answer is those who come for some entertainment and get a little from their dealer should tip...those who are AP do not need anything to cut into their bottom line so they should not tip.....those who are just cheap pricks and do not tip anywhere should just play, stiff and walk away.

AP's should tip but not because its expected. This guy gives me an excuse/reason why not to tip when I'm in a close call situation. If I do end up stiffing, I will not feel guilty if I remind myself of is comments. I am going to imagine what he looks like and stiff dealers who look like him.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
chickenman
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August 13th, 2014 at 3:13:35 AM permalink
Quote: elvis

You are a fraud and should be investigated by the IRS. I will be filled with joy when you are audited and your friends are too.

Bullshit, not a chance
HowMany
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August 13th, 2014 at 3:31:22 AM permalink
I wish elvis would say where he works . . . . . I want to go in there and stiff his dealers.
DrawingDead
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August 13th, 2014 at 4:07:11 AM permalink
Quote: HowMany

I wish elvis would say where he works . . . . . I want to go in there and stiff his dealers.

I wouldn't choose to do that, but I do wish Elvis would share all of this up the food chain with the business that employs him, and find out how fast he flies out the door with his employer's shoe embedded in his anal cavity. Pretending to take this at face value for a moment, he apparently believes he has been independently set up in business for himself on the casino floor, and that his employer's customers exist to serve him and those he regards as his, and that he is entitled to have his employer's customers fulfill his needs and desires as he defines them. I've never knowingly stiffed anyone who has a commonly understood expectation of tip income as a major component of their work, and don't plan to anytime soon, but I'm real sure that if I ever did, and knowing quite a few people who work in the industry pretty well, in every place around here I believe there's no contest at all as to which will get shown the exit between someone abusing their job to hustle or demand tokes and someone who didn't give one.

I doubt he works anywhere. But if so, the place really needs to clean up the obviously serious shortcomings in their HR dept. This is only half a step or less removed from using your employer's place of business to "help yourself" in other ways, deserves exactly the same degree of respect, and that is what it generally gets from most of the people I'm acquainted with among both "front-of-the-house" line staff and above.
Suck dope, watch TV, make up stuff, be somebody on the internet.
Dieter
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August 13th, 2014 at 4:22:28 AM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

I do wish Elvis would share all of this up the food chain with the business that employs him



You mean they might have policies against hustling tokes and hostile behaviour towards players?

Threatening to accuse us of cheating... tsk.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Gandler
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August 13th, 2014 at 4:22:34 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

He said the big six payoff was 45-1. Its not Vegas then, probably Midwest.


AC is 45-1
Ibeatyouraces
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August 13th, 2014 at 4:43:37 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Ibeatyouraces
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August 13th, 2014 at 4:45:08 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
FleaStiff
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August 13th, 2014 at 5:12:50 AM permalink
Some people seem opposed to tipping in general, well that is a societal problem.
There are historical questions about tipping and the answers are often arbitrary and capricious.

Some posters seem against tipping in a casino because it is far more expected and far more emphasized as elsewhere. The "tip for play, tip again for winning" seems too much for them.

Well that makes as much sense as objecting to there being a house edge on the various bets offered. Yes, players you have to pay what "should" be the dealers salaries. That is part of the casino "wetting its beak". It takes a bite out of you when you win, it takes a bite out of you in tipping and it takes a bite out of you in serving those "free" drinks that cost a dollar.

Dealers sometimes do very well, but often they start out on the slippery edge of no benefits, no guaranteed hours, etc.
No one would tip an airplane captain but in starting out many of them are living like McDonald's burger flippers as far as pay, scheduling and seniority go.

So whatever your views are on tipping.... get used to the situation because in Vegas it won't be changing. The Evil Empire won't start paying a living wage, the sweet young things won't start to tell you "no, the booze is free", the dealers won't start to stay all day at the same table, they are rotated to avoid collusion and that is that.

Logical or illogical, sociologically consistent or not, economically functional or not, it makes no difference. There is a burden on you to tip. And to tip generously. Do it.
chickenman
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August 13th, 2014 at 5:25:05 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

There is a burden on you to tip. And to tip generously. Do it.

Pure nonsense.
1BB
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August 13th, 2014 at 6:17:48 AM permalink
Tipping is optional and always has been. No one should be threatened, coerced, have services withheld or be otherwise intimidated for exercising their option not to tip. The system is working just fine. Unlike disorderly conduct or cheating, failure to tip is not illegal or against the rules. One casino in my area has been cracking down on tip hustling dealers. They know the patrons don't like it and that it has the opposite effect of it's intended purpose.

Tipping is a personal thing and I have the same respect for the generous folks who do tip as I have for those who have the courage to just say no. This is a good place to ask my question that no one ever seems to want to answer. Player after player, right on these very pages, will say that they only tip when they win. In what world can that possibly be acceptable? How can that statement be made without it looking like the dealer is being punished because you didn't win? Someone please enlighten us.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
DrawingDead
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August 13th, 2014 at 6:41:14 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

This is a good place to ask my question that no one ever seems to want to answer. Player after player, right on these very pages, will say that they only tip when they win. In what world can that possibly be acceptable? How can that statement be made without it looking like the dealer is being punished because you didn't win? Someone please enlighten us.

In the poker world, of course it is more than acceptable because when I don't win it means that the donkey s.o.b. over there in seat #3 just did, and it is understood that he'll be sliding the chip over from the pot he is now unjustly stacking from the chips that used to belong to me. But that probably isn't exactly what you meant, so I'll get out of your way in the trench warfare of a tipping thread.
Suck dope, watch TV, make up stuff, be somebody on the internet.
1BB
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August 13th, 2014 at 6:55:25 AM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

In the poker world, of course it is more than acceptable because when I don't win it means that the donkey s.o.b. over there in seat #3 just did, and it is understood that he'll be sliding the chip over from the pot he is now unjustly stacking from the chips that used to belong to me. But that probably isn't exactly what you meant, so I'll get out of your way in the trench warfare of a tipping thread.



Thank you for that. I need to be reminded that blackjack isn't the only casino game. After all these years, the blinders that I wear have become a part of me and I do tend to respond from only that perspective.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
GWAE
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August 13th, 2014 at 6:59:22 AM permalink
I haven't read much of this thread but I wanted to share my annoyance. I generally tip pretty well by my standards. The other day while playing blackjack I tipped close to $50 in a 3 hour session. This morning I was playing craps at Rivers. Generally I play craps at the Meadows and usually when playing I will put $1 on my pass line when shooting. Quite often there I will have 3 people working the table thank me for the try or the tip. I have even had the floor come over to me after my roll and thank me for taking care of the crew. If I win the bet I will continue the tip until I 7 out. Today I put $1 down and backed it up with 2x odds. My first roll was a 4, followed by a quick 4 for the point. The dealer tossed the $8 to the box who then dropped the tip. Not a single person even acknowledged that someone had just given them a tip. That will be my last time ever tipping at that casino, hell I may never even play craps there again.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
FleaStiff
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August 13th, 2014 at 8:19:49 AM permalink
>>>> Quote: FleaStiff
>>>> There is a burden on you to tip. And to tip generously. Do it.

Pure nonsense.

Look there are certain social obligations. You can quibble about there origin. You can quibble about there relevance to modern times. You can refer to them as socially demeaning. In general, you can be a real prick, particularly in a casino and you have a stack in front of you, but if you are not going to be pleasant, don't come to the party.

Hallaluleh Chorus being played? Stand up.
Going to the Three Penny Opera? I don't care if the tickets have already cost you eighty dollars, you still give an additional three pennies to the charity box that is there.
The Alabama Song is being played? Don't be a jerk about it. Young ladies in the audience will undo a button or two and hike their skirts a bit as they dance and sing along with the performers. Its the thing to do, see. Its what civilized people do. And if you find it offensive, stay out of Opera Houses.
If your cell phone rings, don't act as if you are in a phone booth instead of: a restaurant, bookstore or courthouse.

Its known as being civilized. There are a mixture of people at a casino. Those free drinks cost about a dollar each. If they come very fast and very well made and a half naked young lady is doing something special to remember you, then they cost a bit more than a dollar a drink. If the drink service is slow, the waitress elderly, and drink is watered, its not her fault, you still tip a dollar and remain festive and friendly to all at the party.

Las Vegas is not the place to argue about tipping. Its a place to pick up the dice and throw them. Or give your signal and accept the next card with good cheer.

Don't be a prick to the crew and then stiff them to boot. Be festive but not loud and obnoxious.

If something happens that really shouldn't, speak up and vote with your feet if its that bad, but don't forget about "When in Rome".
By entering the casino, you have come to Rome. So be aware, the town is awash with palm grease. Taxi Drivers, Luggage Handlers, Housekeeping, Parking Valets. The casino is not the place to argue that The Evil Horde should pay its employees in some different manner or train them in a better manner. You deal with what you have and if you get a trainee dealer its no big problem.

People go to Vegas to WIN, but they want to enjoy the process of losing and not hear some jerk griping about one lousy dollar to a minimum wage employee. Craps dealers at the Venetian make more money than many of the players there, but if you get a trainee, you just go with the flow and if that annoys you, move to a different table.
chickenman
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August 13th, 2014 at 8:32:41 AM permalink
Good points. I believe there's more tendency to stiff dealers due to the admittedly unfair association with winning/losing. And then that AP thing you may have heard about...
mcallister3200
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August 13th, 2014 at 9:31:24 AM permalink
Tip if you want to or think you should, don't if you don't want to or don't feel you should, it's pretty simple. The is it or is it not a service job thinking is ridiculous, thats just a justification or reason some like to use. Dentists, doctors, and lawyers are service jobs and patients don't subsidize their salaries. How much of your waitresses tip is actually based on their service and how much is it based on the amount of the check? Tipping is socially awkward even in industries where is not really optional and it's unfortunate that it's the way American society is, but you don't have to eat at a sit down restaurant, and you can use whatever reasoning you want whether you want to tip your dealers. There isn't a specific % or time involvement societal norm amount, and that's the root of a lot of the animosity, from both sides of the issue.
Beardgoat
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August 13th, 2014 at 9:58:22 AM permalink
Agreed about the amount of tip just being based on the price of my food. The lady at Denny's that brings me my omelet and coffee with refills generally works as hard as the lady at Ruth's Chris steakhouse. Of course the Ruth's Chris server makes about 5 times more than the Denny's server.
FleaStiff
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August 13th, 2014 at 10:18:44 AM permalink
Quote: chickenman

Good points. I believe there's more tendency to stiff dealers due to the admittedly unfair association with winning/losing. And then that AP thing you may have heard about...

Oh sure, there are exceptions. Dealers want tips but inwardly laugh at the concept of "buying Karma".

Some craps crews used to use a hooker to get their table going then she would disappear and continue her fishing expedition.

Some blackjack players tip only for disguise purposes.

And if something really nasty happened you don't have to feel worthless by tipping when its totally inappropriate.
Dieter
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August 13th, 2014 at 10:25:54 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

There is a burden on you to tip. And to tip generously. Do it.



This begs the question - how much, and how often? What constitutes an "adequate" tip vs a "generous" tip?

How do we keep the dealer's children fed without reducing our edge too much?
May the cards fall in your favor.
Zcore13
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August 13th, 2014 at 10:55:14 AM permalink
Quote: elvis

come and count at my table or any table if you stiff the dealers see if they think you are not stealing from them and their families by not tipping. You lie when you try to get friendly with the pit or floor or dealer and then turn around and count and then stiff the dealer while trying to steal from the casino as an advantage player. You put on fake moves and camouflage and then think you are above board and honorable. You are a fraud and should be investigated by the IRS. I will be filled with joy when you are audited and your friends are too.



Elvis does not speak for any Table Games people I know that have any form of intelligence. More likely a troll, but who knows. Using his attitude as a reason why you don't tip is about as smart as saying you would never have a needed surgery done because you read a patient once died because of malpractice.

This whole thread is ridiculous. Nobody has to tip. It's not required. If you feel like you are getting entertainment value and good service, why not tip? If you feel like you're getting no value and having no fun, why stay at the table? I tip because I want to. I've played with hundreds if not thousands of people that didn't tip. Nothing happened to them. Many places (restaurants, barber shops, vale parking, taxi cabs) it's expected. Nobody expects every table games player to tip. If you feel any different, maybe you're just feeling guilty?


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
AxiomOfChoice
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August 13th, 2014 at 11:14:18 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

How do we keep the dealer's children fed without reducing our edge too much?



Ok, here is the thing, IMO.

If you are playing small stakes you cannot reasonably afford to tip anything. If you are a red-chipper spreading $5 to $50, you might make $15 per hour. This pretty much limits your tipping to $2 to $3 per hour. If you are playing "hit and run" and playing 30 minute sessions (not necessary at the red chip level, but, whatever), that is $1.50 per session, max. How are you going to tip $1.50 per session? If you have a good session and win $300, you are going to toss the dealer a white chip or two? Or toss them three white chips if you also don't tip on losing sessions? This will get you talked about more than the guy who stiffed.

Now, let's say you are playing higher stakes and spreading $100 to $1000. Now it is reasonable to tip at that rate. You can slide the dealer a green chip after each session. Or, better yet, two green chips after winning sessions, and nothing after losing ones. The proportions are the same, but most dealers are not going to complain about a $50 tip, even if you did just win $6k. You are tipping $50/hour, and probably winning around $300/hr. You can probably reduce this by tipping less on small wins (one green chip is fine for most wins; two for big ones -- this reduces your tipping rate to, maybe, $35 per hour)

Or, just don't tip. Lots of players don't tip. It doesn't really stick out or peg you as an AP. Not giving a card is 100x worse than not tipping (especially at high stakes, because the comps are extremely significant at those stakes and no one in their right mind is going to turn them down unless they have something to hide).
Scooter77
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August 13th, 2014 at 11:20:50 AM permalink
In my 20 years of casino experience (about 1/2 as a dealer or dual-rate), I came to realize very quickly that the tokes I received were never going to change my overall income drastically one way or another. There were nights, even HOURS, where I put $3,000 in the toke box and my hourly toke rate at the end of the pay period was remarkably unchanged in the $10-12/hour range.

To me, dealing was an exercise in math, hand-eye coordination, chip-handling skills, customer service, and, on craps and baccarat especially, teamwork. The vast majority of dealers simply wanted to see the clock reach the end of their shift so they could go home. I had to share my tips with those dealers as well as the ones that went above and beyond to provide a superior experience. It hardly seemed fair, but I honed my craft to its highest level for both myself and my guests and would never have changed anything.

I considered my dealing to be a form of performance art; tips from winners or losers simply indicated that they appreciated the entertainment value I provided. Small tips were sometimes far more significant than large ones; a dollar at the end of a roulette shift from an elderly Chinese lady because I called all her numbers and colors in Cantonese (I'm not Chinese, but learned enough to deal my games in their language) meant much more to me than a black cheque from a high-roller who happened to have a good day.

In the end, no one is obligated to tip at a casino, but every dealer should show the players enough respect to provide them with an experience that is simply more likely to produce tips and then (ahem) let the chips fall where they may :)

It was never about money for me; it was always about pride in workmanship. If you run into dealers with that attitude, even the most staunch opponent of tipping is more likely to reconsider. If you run into rude, bored, toke-hustling morons, then I'm right with you in withholding those dollars :)
AxelWolf
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August 13th, 2014 at 11:32:44 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Elvis does not speak for any Table Games people I know that have any form of intelligence. More likely a troll, but who knows. Using his attitude as a reason why you don't tip is about as smart as saying you would never have a needed surgery done because you read a patient once died because of malpractice.

This whole thread is ridiculous. Nobody has to tip. It's not required. If you feel like you are getting entertainment value and good service, why not tip? If you feel like you're getting no value and having no fun, why stay at the table? I tip because I want to. I've played with hundreds if not thousands of people that didn't tip. Nothing happened to them. Many places (restaurants, barber shops, vale parking, taxi cabs) it's expected. Nobody expects every table games player to tip. If you feel any different, maybe you're just feeling guilty?


ZCore13

Obviously this guy is not the only reason. I keep seeing this attitude over and over, this is not the only time someone here said they Fk people over on card ratings for not tipping. I feel the hate from some dealers when someone is not tipping them. They even make rude comments and act dumb.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxiomOfChoice
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August 13th, 2014 at 11:34:08 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Obviously this guy is not the only reason. I keep seeing this attitude over and over, this is not the only time someone here said they Fk people over on card ratings for not tipping. I feel the hate from some dealers when someone is not tipping them. They even make rude comments and act dumb.



Don't be too hard on them; it might not be an act.
1BB
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August 13th, 2014 at 11:46:20 AM permalink
Quote: Scooter77

In my 20 years of casino experience (about 1/2 as a dealer or dual-rate), I came to realize very quickly that the tokes I received were never going to change my overall income drastically one way or another. There were nights, even HOURS, where I put $3,000 in the toke box and my hourly toke rate at the end of the pay period was remarkably unchanged in the $10-12/hour range.

To me, dealing was an exercise in math, hand-eye coordination, chip-handling skills, customer service, and, on craps and baccarat especially, teamwork. The vast majority of dealers simply wanted to see the clock reach the end of their shift so they could go home. I had to share my tips with those dealers as well as the ones that went above and beyond to provide a superior experience. It hardly seemed fair, but I honed my craft to its highest level for both myself and my guests and would never have changed anything.

I considered my dealing to be a form of performance art; tips from winners or losers simply indicated that they appreciated the entertainment value I provided. Small tips were sometimes far more significant than large ones; a dollar at the end of a roulette shift from an elderly Chinese lady because I called all her numbers and colors in Cantonese (I'm not Chinese, but learned enough to deal my games in their language) meant much more to me than a black cheque from a high-roller who happened to have a good day.

In the end, no one is obligated to tip at a casino, but every dealer should show the players enough respect to provide them with an experience that is simply more likely to produce tips and then (ahem) let the chips fall where they may :)

It was never about money for me; it was always about pride in workmanship. If you run into dealers with that attitude, even the most staunch opponent of tipping is more likely to reconsider. If you run into rude, bored, toke-hustling morons, then I'm right with you in withholding those dollars :)



Wow! Can we clone this guy? Unlike our friend elvis, I doubt that Scooter ever gets "all shook up".
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
UCivan
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August 13th, 2014 at 12:41:40 PM permalink
Quote: Scooter77

In my 20 years of casino experience (about 1/2 as a dealer or dual-rate), I came to realize very quickly that the tokes I received were never going to change my overall income drastically one way or another. There were nights, even HOURS, where I put $3,000 in the toke box and my hourly toke rate at the end of the pay period was remarkably unchanged in the $10-12/hour range.

To me, dealing was an exercise in math, hand-eye coordination, chip-handling skills, customer service, and, on craps and baccarat especially, teamwork. The vast majority of dealers simply wanted to see the clock reach the end of their shift so they could go home. I had to share my tips with those dealers as well as the ones that went above and beyond to provide a superior experience. It hardly seemed fair, but I honed my craft to its highest level for both myself and my guests and would never have changed anything.

I considered my dealing to be a form of performance art; tips from winners or losers simply indicated that they appreciated the entertainment value I provided. Small tips were sometimes far more significant than large ones; a dollar at the end of a roulette shift from an elderly Chinese lady because I called all her numbers and colors in Cantonese (I'm not Chinese, but learned enough to deal my games in their language) meant much more to me than a black cheque from a high-roller who happened to have a good day.

In the end, no one is obligated to tip at a casino, but every dealer should show the players enough respect to provide them with an experience that is simply more likely to produce tips and then (ahem) let the chips fall where they may :)

It was never about money for me; it was always about pride in workmanship. If you run into dealers with that attitude, even the most staunch opponent of tipping is more likely to reconsider. If you run into rude, bored, toke-hustling morons, then I'm right with you in withholding those dollars :)



++1. Thanks for the services.
Dieter
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August 13th, 2014 at 12:56:03 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

If you are a red-chipper spreading $5 to $50, you might make $15 per hour. This pretty much limits your tipping to $2 to $3 per hour.



OK, so that's basically sliding the dealer a dollar at the start of every other shoe, and maybe placing a dollar bet for the dealer once in a while.

Obviously, it's advantageous to place a dealer bet only when the player hand is likely to win.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxiomOfChoice
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August 13th, 2014 at 1:19:25 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

OK, so that's basically sliding the dealer a dollar at the start of every other shoe, and maybe placing a dollar bet for the dealer once in a while.

Obviously, it's advantageous to place a dealer bet only when the player hand is likely to win.



Yeah, but are you going to bet 2 green (or worse, a stack of 10 red) for yourself, and a white for the dealer?

It's better not to tip in this case. Your tip will not be appreciated. You will be thought of as cheap for a tip that small. If you are betting $50, you need to bet at least $5 for the dealer, or nothing at all.
Deucekies
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August 13th, 2014 at 1:35:26 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

It's better not to tip in this case. Your tip will not be appreciated. You will be thought of as cheap for a tip that small. If you are betting $50, you need to bet at least $5 for the dealer, or nothing at all.


Or if it's going to be a dollar, put it up for the dealer on the side game if it's present. At least then the dollar can turn into $5, $10 or more.

To be clear, I appreciate any tip. But for $1 toke bets, I like to gamble and go for the big win, if I have any say in it.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Dieter
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Dieter
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August 13th, 2014 at 2:19:45 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Yeah, but are you going to bet 2 green (or worse, a stack of 10 red) for yourself, and a white for the dealer?



I usually do it differently. It seems to end up with a nice drop into the toke box, and the dealers don't seem to mind winning along with me. My cost is between $3 and $0 dollars, depending on how the streak goes.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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August 13th, 2014 at 2:32:10 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

If you are betting $50, you need to bet at least $5 for the dealer, or nothing at all.



So you're saying that tipping 10% of the wager is customary... but at what frequency? Every hand? Once a shoe? Once a blackjack?
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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August 13th, 2014 at 2:37:01 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

I usually do it differently. It seems to end up with a nice drop into the toke box, and the dealers don't seem to mind winning along with me. My cost is between $3 and $0 dollars, depending on how the streak goes.



I don't really follow that post of yours.

But, $3 on a $20 bet is 15% of a bet, or, about 45 hands worth of house edge for a non-counting basic strategy player.

If you are counting and $20 is your top bet, it's about half an hour's profit for you (if conditions are good and you can make an appropriately-sized low bet... $2?)

If $20 is not your top bet then I'm not quite sure how this fits in with your comment that you should tip when you are most likely to win (this should be when you have your max bet out, obviously).

Also this seems to assume that every hand either wins or loses 1 unit, which is not true. For tips out in front you can refuse to split or double even though you do so with your original bet (although I'm guessing that you don't do this, since it looks really cheap and they are "only" white chips). With a capped bet you can always double for less, of course (again, that would look cheap) and for splits you have no choice.
Venthus
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August 13th, 2014 at 3:53:59 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Or if it's going to be a dollar, put it up for the dealer on the side game if it's present. At least then the dollar can turn into $5, $10 or more.

To be clear, I appreciate any tip. But for $1 toke bets, I like to gamble and go for the big win, if I have any say in it.



I usually toss it into the sidebet too. At once place, on PGP, was told that I couldn't place a dealer bet without a player bet in the same spot, so I just moved it into the circle and clearly stated 'for you'.

Well, I pushed the main hand and got the dealer a nice, shiny, royal.

It was encored by a high full house that lost, whereupon I left the table and called it a night.

(There were, at least, very appreciative of me actually paying on the royal since it was actually placed as my own bet, and not a dealer bet.)
terapined
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August 13th, 2014 at 4:15:05 PM permalink
I'm a low roller . I have to admit I'm a cheapskate. For example, whenever I get to Vegas, I always wait for the 2 dollar express bus to take me downtown.
On the flip side I cant be too cheap If I'm hitting Vegas 4 times this year.
This is how I tip.
Poker cash game 1-2 , tip a dollar chip when I win a pot.
Poker tournament, if I finish in the money, tip about 10 percent. Best win ever for me 650.00 profit, I tipped 60 bucks. 10th place, played 7 hours. Biggest tip in my life but it was for 7 hours of dealer service.
Pai Gow poker. My sessions last about an hour to 2 hours max. 10 dollar bettor. I never tip during the session. If I lose 100 before the hour is up, I simply walk away giving the dealer any single chips left, usually 0 to 3 bucks. If I have not lost 100 after 2 hrs, generally feel like cashing out, and generally tip around 3 to 5 bucks. With craps, pretty much the same. I never tip while playing. I only tip when cashing out or losing a 100.

I only drink coke or red bull, tip a dollar a drink.
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
beachbumbabs
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August 13th, 2014 at 5:41:01 PM permalink
I would not be surprised if Elvis is not a dealer/floor at all, but a disgruntled player who gets paranoid about his ratings and the pit goings-on. Either way (real or troll), not someone I'd want to gamble with.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
EvenBob
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August 13th, 2014 at 5:56:07 PM permalink
Quote: elvis

Countermeasures are in place by all floor supervisors when someone does not tip. I have explained a few of them. Does not that concern you?



What country is that in? Not the US..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AxiomOfChoice
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August 13th, 2014 at 6:21:22 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I would not be surprised if Elvis is not a dealer/floor at all, but a disgruntled player who gets paranoid about his ratings and the pit goings-on. Either way (real or troll), not someone I'd want to gamble with.



But unfortunately this attitude (of tips being expected) is not that uncommon. Of course he is exaggerating it greatly, mixed in with some nonsense about "countermeasures" that do not exist, but it's still a problem.
rainman
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August 13th, 2014 at 6:43:21 PM permalink
Quote: elvis

come and count at my table or any table if you stiff the dealers see if they think you are not stealing from them and their families by not tipping. You lie when you try to get friendly with the pit or floor or dealer and then turn around and count and then stiff the dealer while trying to steal from the casino as an advantage player. You put on fake moves and camouflage and then think you are above board and honorable. You are a fraud and should be investigated by the IRS. I will be filled with joy when you are audited and your friends are too.



Is this an invite? If so please tell me the store in which you work, Myself and some associates would like to check it out and maybe do some shopping thanks.
Zcore13
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August 13th, 2014 at 6:45:06 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

But unfortunately this attitude (of tips being expected) is not that uncommon. Of course he is exaggerating it greatly, mixed in with some nonsense about "countermeasures" that do not exist, but it's still a problem.


Maybe it is more where you are than other places. I don't know where you are, but it sounds like an East Coast thing, as are most obnoxious/offensive personalities.

I've been to casinos in Arizona, Nevada, California and on Cruises and I don't think I've ever come across a dealer that made it obvious that tips were a huge concern. Dealers deal thousands of hands a day, tens of thousands a week, hundreds of thousands a month. Any that fret about it enough to have it be noticeable have to be rare and are probably in the wrong business.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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August 13th, 2014 at 7:13:30 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Maybe it is more where you are than other places. I don't know where you are, but it sounds like an East Coast thing, as are most obnoxious/offensive personalities.

I've been to casinos in Arizona, Nevada, California and on Cruises and I don't think I've ever come across a dealer that made it obvious that tips were a huge concern. Dealers deal thousands of hands a day, tens of thousands a week, hundreds of thousands a month. Any that fret about it enough to have it be noticeable have to be rare and are probably in the wrong business.



I've seen it in Vegas, even at nice casinos. I would not say that it is the norm but I would not say that it is rare either.

I can recall two particular incidents. Once was when an AP friend of mine went to play the big 6. First spin, he hit 40-1 for a $2000 win. He played one more spin and then left. Tipped the dealer $5 from his wallet. The floor was visibly VERY upset by the small tip.

Another incident was at the craps table. Someone (who I didn't know) won a significant amount of money (thousands) playing craps, and then cashed out and left. This was not a particularly big bettor -- it was someone who started close to the table minimum and had a good roll while pressing. After the color-up, the player had an extra 2 white chips and tossed them to the dealers. The dealers didn't say anything while the player was there, but after she left they were making jokes about how cheap she was.

There was also the "secret bet" incident that AoS mentioned, which I think happened at Aria, where one of the craps dealers was hustling tips.

These all happened at large strip casinos.
ontariodealer
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August 13th, 2014 at 7:18:53 PM permalink
funny thing, I find most of my fellow dealers are stiffs when they play.
get second you pig
EvenBob
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August 13th, 2014 at 7:50:49 PM permalink
When you work for tips, you soon realize that on
a monthly basis it averages out. Good weeks
make up for the bad weeks. My cab drivers would
piss and moan about a bad night. I told them to
keep track and they would find every month to
be about the same. Zscore is right, pro's don't
sweat it because one shift or half a dozen don't
mean anything on a monthly basis.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
dwheatley
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August 13th, 2014 at 7:58:42 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Yeah, but are you going to bet 2 green (or worse, a stack of 10 red) for yourself, and a white for the dealer?

It's better not to tip in this case. Your tip will not be appreciated. You will be thought of as cheap for a tip that small. If you are betting $50, you need to bet at least $5 for the dealer, or nothing at all.



Where I play, putting a $1 next to a $50-$100 bet is appreciated by the dealer. I also really think it disguises my play. Everyone sees 'hot streak, dealer in the game' as the reason (or, 'how did i just lose 4 hands in a row, give me a good one'). Not many people tip regularly here, and the good tips show up on big wins. I try to blend in, and it's worked so far.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
AxiomOfChoice
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August 13th, 2014 at 8:02:44 PM permalink
Quote: dwheatley

Where I play, putting a $1 next to a $50-$100 bet is appreciated by the dealer. I also really think it disguises my play. Everyone sees 'hot streak, dealer in the game' as the reason (or, 'how did i just lose 4 hands in a row, give me a good one'). Not many people tip regularly here, and the good tips show up on big wins. I try to blend in, and it's worked so far.



If it works then you should absolutely do it. At most places I don't think that this would be appreciated.

Usually if I buy in at a black chip table and then ask them to break one of them down for me, they will just give me 3 green and 5 red. I have to ask again if I want white.
ontariodealer
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August 13th, 2014 at 8:39:59 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

When you work for tips, you soon realize that on
a monthly basis it averages out. Good weeks
make up for the bad weeks. My cab drivers would
piss and moan about a bad night. I told them to
keep track and they would find every month to
be about the same. Zscore is right, pro's don't
sweat it because one shift or half a dozen don't
mean anything on a monthly basis.



this is right on the money.
get second you pig
Dieter
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August 13th, 2014 at 9:22:06 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

$3 on a $20 bet is 15% of a bet, or, about 45 hands worth of house edge for a non-counting basic strategy player.



The way it's laid, it's $1+$22, or 4.5% for the dealer, not 15%.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

If $20 is not your top bet then I'm not quite sure how this fits in with your comment that you should tip when you are most likely to win (this should be when you have your max bet out, obviously).



If one were counting, I'd say at whatever positive count you start raising your bet, this starts to work. My casual observations and selective memory tell me that winning a few in a row isn't uncommon once the deck starts to turn good.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Also this seems to assume that every hand either wins or loses 1 unit, which is not true.



You're right. On a split-to-3, double-after-split table, I might be losing an extra $15 on top of the first $3. Of course, that's only slightly dwarfed by losing the extra $100 of "bet money". More realistically, $6 instead of $3, if there's a double on the first hand and it loses.

The method is only useful if one intends to place multiple subsequent toke bets for the dealer. The "I'll keep rolling with it, so long as it's working" explanation seems to work with the dealers here, and them dropping dealer's money 4 or 5 hands in a row seems to make a positive impression, even if it is just a couple of bucks a round.

If your tipping style is to throw out a larger toke bet "once in a while", this isn't for you.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxelWolf
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August 13th, 2014 at 9:51:43 PM permalink
Quote: ontariodealer

funny thing, I find most of my fellow dealers are stiffs when they play.

I have said this before, dealers don't tip much when they play. We need to follow to dealers lead.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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