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mwalz9
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Mission146WizardOnceDearMukke100xOddsMichaelBluejay
December 5th, 2022 at 11:31:22 AM permalink
Hey guys,

Long time no see.

Just wanted to pop in and see how everyone was.

Myself, I have been struggling, but I am on the road to recovery. I recently stopped gambling. I self excluded from every casino (brick and mortar and online) in West Virginia. I started GA meetings and have a counselor. I needed help, and needed it bad! I was about to lose everything I have, including my family. In the last 3 years since online gambling became legal here in WV, my net loss is 6 figures on a high 7 figure amount played. My credit cards are maxed out and Im on the verge of bankruptcy.

Luckily, I stopped it in time!

Hope all is well here. Miss you guys!
Last edited by: mwalz9 on Dec 5, 2022
AZDuffman
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December 5th, 2022 at 11:47:34 AM permalink
Keep strong. Please do not be one of the ones sneaks back in to play.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
unJon
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December 5th, 2022 at 11:53:09 AM permalink
Iím very glad you got the help you needed in time. I hope you remember how bad things were and are able to resist the temptation going forward.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Mission146
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December 5th, 2022 at 11:58:47 AM permalink
Quote: mwalz9

Hey guys,

Long time no see.

Just wanted to pop in and see how everyone was.

Myself, I have been struggling, but I am on the road to recovery. I recently stopped gambling. I self excluded from every casino (brick and mortar and online) in West Virginia. I started GA meetings and have a counselor. I needed help, and needed it bad! I was about to lose everything I have, including my family. In the last 3 years since online gambling became legal here in WV, my net loss is 6 figures on a high 5 figure amount played. My credit cards are maxed out and Im on the verge of bankruptcy.

Luckily, I stopped it in time!

Hope all is well here. Miss you guys!
link to original post



I didn't know. I have to be honest and say that I sort of suspected, but I didn't know.

Good luck and I hope everything goes well for you!

Friendship doesn't necessarily begin and end with an interest in gambling; it's just a job to me. If you ever want to text or call just to shoot the breeze, maybe talk a little football, you've got my number.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxelWolf
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December 5th, 2022 at 11:59:50 AM permalink
Quote: mwalz9

Hey guys,

Long time no see.

Just wanted to pop in and see how everyone was.

Myself, I have been struggling, but I am on the road to recovery. I recently stopped gambling. I self excluded from every casino (brick and mortar and online) in West Virginia. I started GA meetings and have a counselor. I needed help, and needed it bad! I was about to lose everything I have, including my family. In the last 3 years since online gambling became legal here in WV, my net loss is 6 figures on a high 5 figure amount played. My credit cards are maxed out and Im on the verge of bankruptcy.

Luckily, I stopped it in time!

Hope all is well here. Miss you guys!
link to original post

Sorry to hear that. FYI, this is probably a bad place to hang out.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mwalz9
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December 5th, 2022 at 12:00:30 PM permalink
Thanks, Mission. I truly appreciate our friendship! I have met a lot of great people here, especially you!
JohnnyQ
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December 5th, 2022 at 12:01:06 PM permalink
Best wishes, and good luck keeping on your path.
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
mwalz9
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December 5th, 2022 at 12:01:45 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: mwalz9

Hey guys,

Long time no see.

Just wanted to pop in and see how everyone was.

Myself, I have been struggling, but I am on the road to recovery. I recently stopped gambling. I self excluded from every casino (brick and mortar and online) in West Virginia. I started GA meetings and have a counselor. I needed help, and needed it bad! I was about to lose everything I have, including my family. In the last 3 years since online gambling became legal here in WV, my net loss is 6 figures on a high 5 figure amount played. My credit cards are maxed out and Im on the verge of bankruptcy.

Luckily, I stopped it in time!

Hope all is well here. Miss you guys!
link to original post

Sorry to hear that. FYI, this is probably a bad place to hang out.
link to original post



Not hanging out. Just came to check in and touch base with friends. Haven't opened a thread besides this one.
SOOPOO
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December 5th, 2022 at 12:08:52 PM permalink
Sorry to hear, but happy to hear youíve identified a problem and fixed it.

How do you lose 6 figures if youíve only bet 5 figures? Typo, or do I not understand what you meant?

I have some questions about the details, but will only ask if you are willing to talk about it.
AxelWolf
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December 5th, 2022 at 12:18:26 PM permalink
Quote: mwalz9

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: mwalz9

Hey guys,

Long time no see.

Just wanted to pop in and see how everyone was.

Myself, I have been struggling, but I am on the road to recovery. I recently stopped gambling. I self excluded from every casino (brick and mortar and online) in West Virginia. I started GA meetings and have a counselor. I needed help, and needed it bad! I was about to lose everything I have, including my family. In the last 3 years since online gambling became legal here in WV, my net loss is 6 figures on a high 5 figure amount played. My credit cards are maxed out and Im on the verge of bankruptcy.

Luckily, I stopped it in time!

Hope all is well here. Miss you guys!
link to original post

Sorry to hear that. FYI, this is probably a bad place to hang out.
link to original post



Not hanging out. Just came to check in and touch base with friends. Haven't opened a thread besides this one.
link to original post

I'm not judging or trying to tell you what to do, you are a big boy and this will be taken the wrong way regardless of what I say. I'm sure many of us appreciate the update. If nothing else, it's a good reminder of the fact that many people struggle with this issue.

I have known a fair amount of problem gamblers and it doesn't take much to get them started again.

Someone with a gambling problem checking in and touching base on a gambling forum with gambling friends is usually a bad idea. It seems innocent enough, but it could be a slippery slope one doesn't even realize. Just something to think about.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mwalz9
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December 5th, 2022 at 12:18:57 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Sorry to hear, but happy to hear youíve identified a problem and fixed it.

How do you lose 6 figures if youíve only bet 5 figures? Typo, or do I not understand what you meant?

I have some questions about the details, but will only ask if you are willing to talk about it.
link to original post



Typo. Fixed it. It was high 7 figure amount wagered.
unJon
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December 5th, 2022 at 12:20:08 PM permalink
Duplicate post.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Vegasrider
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December 5th, 2022 at 12:55:38 PM permalink
If you have a family and kids, there is no reason to gamble. OK, maybe for entertainment purposes a few times a year. But you need work hard, spend time with your kids, go on family vacation and have sex with your wife. If you are single, different story. You can afford to live the other lifestyle, your actions fall on you. You only hurt yourself.
Wizard
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December 5th, 2022 at 12:58:20 PM permalink
Thanks for stopping by and the update.

Stay strong. As others have said, hanging around here may not be a good idea, although I'd be interested in a progress report down the road.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
OnceDear
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December 5th, 2022 at 1:35:28 PM permalink
Quote: mwalz9

Hey guys,

Long time no see.

Just wanted to pop in and see how everyone was.

Myself, I have been struggling, but I am on the road to recovery. I recently stopped gambling. I self excluded from every casino (brick and mortar and online) in West Virginia. I started GA meetings and have a counselor. I needed help, and needed it bad! I was about to lose everything I have, including my family. In the last 3 years since online gambling became legal here in WV, my net loss is 6 figures on a high 7 figure amount played. My credit cards are maxed out and Im on the verge of bankruptcy.

Luckily, I stopped it in time!

Hope all is well here. Miss you guys!
link to original post

Really sorry to hear of your situation. Thank you for your candour. That must have taken courage.
I wish you a full and steady recovery from your situation.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
mwalz9
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December 5th, 2022 at 1:39:44 PM permalink
Thank you! I have learned a lot from you. You are a HUGE inspiration to me. I felt the need to stop in. I will definitely update in a few years and months.
ChumpChange
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December 5th, 2022 at 2:20:37 PM permalink
So a $300K loss on $9 million bet is a 3.33% HA. What games were you playing and what were your sore spots? Online gaming is 10X faster than B&M.
mwalz9
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December 5th, 2022 at 2:23:43 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

So a $300K loss on $9 million bet is a 3.33% HA. What games were you playing and what were your sore spots? Online gaming is 10X faster than B&M.
link to original post



My net loss was less than 2% of my amount wagered.

I played BlackJack (I know basic strategy), slots, and bet on sports.
ChumpChange
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December 5th, 2022 at 2:28:56 PM permalink
I had a property manager last century that would break into tenants' rooms and steal money then go play Black Jack at the local casino. He stole over $2,500 over a few weeks and he was arrested and lost his job. Then we got the property manager from hell and half of the big building moved out within one year, and they really had nowhere to go.
OnceDear
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December 5th, 2022 at 3:52:11 PM permalink
Quote: mwalz9 Edits for brevity

Hey guys,
Myself, I have been struggling, but I am on the road to recovery. I recently stopped gambling. ... In the last 3 years since online gambling became legal here in WV, my net loss is 6 figures on a high 7 figure amount played.
My credit cards are maxed out and I'm on the verge of bankruptcy.
link to original post


I found it instructive to read back through threads started by MWalz9.
There but for the grace of [insert favourite deity] go many of us.

I'll quote a few snippets, without critical comment. His situation is really upsetting and if his posting history can be any help in saving anyone from the same fate, I'd encourage that newcomer to read every thread started by MWalz9. Then I'd encourage them to quit the forum and quit the very idea of gambling, before ever starting.

I concur with wizard that MWalz9 'Hanging around here might not be a good idea'

Back in MWalz9's first thread in 2012

Quote: mwalz9

Love the sarcasm, but guys who make < $30,000/yr. like to play craps too!
link to original post



Hi MWalz, When you wrote that back in 2012, were you one of the guys who make < $30,000/yr?

I see back in June 2021, MWalz was pondering his situation, but comfortable that he had 6 figure income and 6 figure bank balance. He felt comfortable, but with hindsight was there an edge to his question? BOLDING IS MINE. Edit for brevity.

Quote: mwalz9

I was just thinking about this today and wanted some insight from some of you. Do you feel like a gambling "addict" can be addicted to gambling and be a "controlled gambler" at the same time?

For instance, I stop at the casino between my house and work 4-5 times a week. I bet on every sporting event I plan to watch, which means I bet on one usually every night. I also, when not watching a sport on TV I have money on, play an online casino game on my tablet at home in the evenings bored. Many people would call that a definite addicted gambler.

However, I never spend money I do not have to lose. I make well over 6 figures a year and have a 6 figure bank account....

Could I quit? Maybe. Do I want too? No! I do not feel it is an addiction though. I feel I use it as entertainent, as my main #1 hobby, and feel I have it well under control and have for many, many years.
...
Again, I'm not asking for any help or anything about me personally, just thoughts on if addicted gamblers can be controlled gamblers in general.
link to original post



But as recently as Jan 2022, MWalz9 was distressed at losing his Mortgage payment....

Quote: mwalz9

So, I felt froggy and took the $1823 I had set aside for my mortgage this month to the blackjack table. I bought in for $1823. My plan was to make enough money to pay for dinner for my family. I just needed to win say $50, then I'd leave.
....
I can't believe it! 4 loses in a row! The good hands I had? How does this happen. So of course I start crying at the table. I just lost my mortgage. I don't know what I'm going to do. ...
link to original post



And here we are. How quickly and how easily a family's life was trashed.

Maybe MWalz9 will help us understand how it came to this.
But he owes us no explanation. Again, I wish him the best for his recovery.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Mission146
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December 5th, 2022 at 4:15:04 PM permalink
I think the last post you quoted was satirizing himself. MWalz is a man from West Virginia, so there's no way he cried, thus the event is satire.

I usually try not to play the macho dude, but one thing men brought up in that area DO NOT do is cry.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
avianrandy
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December 5th, 2022 at 4:23:16 PM permalink
I wish you the best of luck mwalz9. A former coworker self excluded himself from his home state casinos. He started going to other states to gamble. Then he started having bad luck and came back to his home state casinos a few times because he was broke and hoped to find some of his friends who owed him money. This was during the self exclusion period. He got arrested and charged with trespassing. He had even sold his lawn mower because he was sure he would win and didn't cut his grass. It is a slippery slope.he eventually made it now working a different lower paying job. Now he plays scratch offs heavily. Good luck to you mwalz9
OnceDear
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December 5th, 2022 at 4:27:40 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I think the last post you quoted was satirizing himself. MWalz is a man from West Virginia, so there's no way he cried, thus the event is satire.

I usually try not to play the macho dude, but one thing men brought up in that area DO NOT do is cry.
link to original post

Well, if there was any truth in the post, where he said he'd lost his 1800 bankroll while chasing a $50 dinner, then I could imagine him crying inside.

His posting style concerns me. For now, I take it all at face value.
The timeline fits. 3 years ago he discovers online wagering. 18 months ago he has thoroughly embraced it. 11 months ago he was describing his losing session. And now here he is, describing his downfall, which obviously is not super recent.
Last edited by: OnceDear on Dec 6, 2022
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
100xOdds
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December 6th, 2022 at 1:44:03 AM permalink
Quote: mwalz9

Quote: ChumpChange

So a $300K loss on $9 million bet is a 3.33% HA. What games were you playing and what were your sore spots? Online gaming is 10X faster than B&M.
link to original post



My net loss was less than 2% of my amount wagered.

I played BlackJack (I know basic strategy), slots, and bet on sports.
link to original post

2% loss if $9M is $180k.
yike! never thought of that high of a loss for 98% return.

many years ago the 1st time i did $1M coin-in in a year, i made $6k.
this was mostly on 3/4/5x odds e-Craps. it earned points at the same rate as vp.
the next year, the earn rate was 2x that of vp (or 4x that of slots) so i stopped playing that.

your post made me realize how lucky i was.
also lucky in that the casino raised the points earn rate so i quit playing that while i was ahead.

And congrats on realizing you needed to quit and actually made it difficult for yourself to gamble again!
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
100xOdds
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December 6th, 2022 at 2:03:27 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Well, if there was any truth in the post, where he said he'd lost his 1800 bankroll wile chasing a $50 dinner, then I could imagine him crying inside.

His posting style concerns me. For now, I take it all at face value.
The timeline fits. 3 years ago he discovers online wagering. 18 months ago he has thoroughly embraced it. 11 months ago he was describing his losing session. And now here he is, describing his downfall, which obviously is not super recent.
link to original post

wow.. from 6figure bank acct down to gambling his mortgage payment in 6 months?!?

i am so glad the default max limit atm withdraw on my debit card is $2k and the max i can up it to for next 24hrs is $4k even though i have 5 figures in that acct.
(and i was told the reason for that is liability of card being stolen/fraud)
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
MDawg
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December 6th, 2022 at 2:44:05 AM permalink
Quote: mwalz9



My net loss was less than 2% of my amount wagered.

I played BlackJack (I know basic strategy), slots, and bet on sports.
link to original post


Slots - terrible odds, never touch the stuff.

Sports - not sure what the house edge is or should be, as I don't do that either.

But blackjack - even without counting or any other advantage play, you should be able to find a table with a house edge of about nothing - miles below 2%?

Anyway, maybe you know exactly what you wagered. Maybe you don't.

Problem gamblers tend to not know when to stop. So does this mean that everyone who plays in the casino without an edge is destined to lose? I don't think so.

If you donít mind answering - based on how much you placed across the circle (your handle) - would you say that you lost more or less than the house edge over this long period that you played blackjack.

My belief is that some gamblers (including problem ones) lose everything at most every session - they canít stop when ahead and just keep playing almost every time until all the chips are gone. They keep chasing ever mounting losses and keep losing entire bankrolls time and again, as they keep thinking that they will or must get back to even with a lowering bankroll and same max bet. For them, risk of ruin supersedes house edge time and again.

Anyway, I don't believe that the house edge or the player advantage is all there is to it. I play with an advantage and win more than what I believe my mathematical edge is. And I also played craps for some years with no edge, and I still ended up about even probably a little ahead, definitely did not lose the expected house edge at craps. Maybe my huge bankroll places risk of ruin so far out of reach that that becomes a non-issue for me, and maybe that helps my over all record.

There are irritants out there who keep claiming that have won exactly what would be expected based on counting cards, but those players' posts were debunked to the point where no one even thinks that those players even really play blackjack at all, and just lifted whatever has been posted from reading online and in books.

I don't think I have ever played blackjack without counting and often with other edges too, and the sums I have won at blackjack are FAR more than would be expected.

Once you've resigned yourself to thinking in black and white you might as well just stay out of casinos period, would probably be the best advice.
Last edited by: MDawg on Dec 6, 2022
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
OnceDear
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December 6th, 2022 at 4:09:51 AM permalink
[A few edit's for brevity. Bolding is mine]
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: mwalz9

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: mwalz9

Hey guys,

Long time no see.

Just wanted to pop in and see how everyone was. ...
Hope all is well here. Miss you guys!
link to original post

Sorry to hear that. FYI, this is probably a bad place to hang out.
link to original post


Not hanging out. Just came to check in and touch base with friends. Haven't opened a thread besides this one.
link to original post


Someone with a gambling problem checking in and touching base on a gambling forum with gambling friends is usually a bad idea. It seems innocent enough, but it could be a slippery slope one doesn't even realize. Just something to think about.
link to original post



What AxelWolf said!!!

Looking even deeper into MWalz9's threads,
It's clear that he could never shake off the idea that if he had enough bankroll, then he was destined to win with hit and run strategies. Even as recently as 2021, he was still embracing Martingale. He was also spending 5-6 nights a week at a bricks and mortar casino, even before getting deep into online.
Quote: 100xOdds

wow.. from 6figure bank acct down to gambling his mortgage payment in 6 months?!?
i am so glad the default max limit atm withdraw on my debit card is $2k and the max i can up it to for next 24hrs is $4k even though i have 5 figures in that acct.link to original post


5 figures could soon go. Don't do it 100x

Again, taking all MWalz's posts at face value, there are patterns that many of us can relate to. A few early wins in the $thousands, a few advantage plays that worked, afeeling that all that money behind him was bankroll, but not money in danger, and most pernicious of all, an embracing of the idea that taking a few thousand to the casino would give repeatable opportunities to 'hit and run' for $50, $100 or whatever.
There's a loud siren warning of the dangers of accessible online gambling, too. He seems to have gone from an hour and a half round trip to the casino twice a month, to 6 nights a week in casino, to wagering every day online.
Quote: mwalz9

I live in West Virginia....1.5 hours south of The Meadows, my "home" casino. I play craps and bet the buggies. I try to get up there at least twice a month.link to original post


Then more...
Quote: mwalz9

So I go to Mardi Gras casino in WV about 5-6 nights a week. My gf goes with me every Saturday. Im a Black Diamond player there and many of the dealers and pit bosses know me on a first name basis. I am a respected player and play blackjack and craps. I typically tip, very very well.
....
I said, its all random, its all math. Learn it!
link to original post

Then more again ...
Quote: mwalz9

For instance, I stop at the casino between my house and work 4-5 times a week. I bet on every sporting event I plan to watch, which means I bet on one usually every night. I also, when not watching a sport on TV I have money on, play an online casino game on my tablet at home in the evenings bored. Many people would call that a definite addicted gambler.
link to original post



And here he is thinking about hit and run progressive systems.
His math brain knows it's nonsense.... Or does it?
Quote: mwalz9


I know no betting systems work. The math and logic of an -EV game catches up with you...ALWAYS!

So, while this is not a betting system, I parked it here for the lack of a better place.

So you have a $10,000 bankroll. Your goal as a gambler is to make $100/day, 365 days a year. Basically, $36,500/yr additional income.

Playing any of the close to 50/50 games...craps line bets, roulette even money bets, blackjack, baccarat or Pai Gow Poker, what are the odds you win your $100 before losing $10,000?

Say you bet $50 units. No crazy systems like Martingale, Oscar's Grind, etc...

Just betting normally.

Surely you can be up 2 units before you're down 200?
Right?


The big bankroll with small win goal has to make this highly favorable.
link to original post



This is exactly why, back in my moderating days, I was so scathing of anyone touting 'Hit and run', 'Win goal' strategies. It's so easy to get seduced by the appeal of such Bull.

Even now, this forum permits and encourages folk to emulate such nonsense.

Should forum moderators have any duty of care? Or are we ALL big boys and girls perfectly capable of staying safe?
MWalz, sadly disproves the latter question quite conclusively. Which just leaves the first question.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
DRich
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December 6th, 2022 at 4:10:05 AM permalink
I am generally not a compassionate man, but in this case I really feel bad for the poster. I wish him the best and hope he can manage his demons.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
OnceDear
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December 6th, 2022 at 4:55:17 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I am generally not a compassionate man, but in this case I really feel bad for the poster. I wish him the best and hope he can manage his demons.
link to original post

Likewise. But he's not out of danger yet. None of us are.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
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December 6th, 2022 at 5:37:25 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Anyway, I don't believe that the house edge or the player advantage is all there is to it.

That's all there is to it.

That's exactly why people get into bad situations like this, people are going around thinking/ being told there's something more to it.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I know a few people that are Advantage Players who are addicted to action/playing, but they only play games with an advantage they won't touch -EV stuff unless absolutely necessary for cover. They are super successful. Aside from being smart, their success is also contributed to the eagerness to find +EV plays and to put a ton of hours in.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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December 6th, 2022 at 5:39:32 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

None of us are.

???
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:14:04 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: mwalz9



My net loss was less than 2% of my amount wagered.

I played BlackJack (I know basic strategy), slots, and bet on sports.
link to original post


Slots - terrible odds, never touch the stuff.

Sports - not sure what the house edge is or should be, as I don't do that either.

But blackjack - even without counting or any other advantage play, you should be able to find a table with a house edge of about nothing - miles below 2%?

Anyway, maybe you know exactly what you wagered. Maybe you don't.

Problem gamblers tend to not know when to stop. So does this mean that everyone who plays in the casino without an edge is destined to lose? I don't think so.

If you donít mind answering - based on how much you placed across the circle (your handle) - would you say that you lost more or less than the house edge over this long period that you played blackjack.

My belief is that some gamblers (including problem ones) lose everything at most every session - they canít stop when ahead and just keep playing almost every time until all the chips are gone. They keep chasing ever mounting losses and keep losing entire bankrolls time and again, as they keep thinking that they will or must get back to even with a lowering bankroll and same max bet. For them, risk of ruin supersedes house edge time and again.

Anyway, I don't believe that the house edge or the player advantage is all there is to it. I play with an advantage and win more than what I believe my mathematical edge is. And I also played craps for some years with no edge, and I still ended up about even probably a little ahead, definitely did not lose the expected house edge at craps. Maybe my huge bankroll places risk of ruin so far out of reach that that becomes a non-issue for me, and maybe that helps my over all record.

There are irritants out there who keep claiming that have won exactly what would be expected based on counting cards, but those players' posts were debunked to the point where no one even thinks that those players even really play blackjack at all, and just lifted whatever has been posted from reading online and in books.

I don't think I have ever played blackjack without counting and often with other edges too, and the sums I have won at blackjack are FAR more than would be expected.

Once you've resigned yourself to thinking in black and white you might as well just stay out of casinos period, would probably be the best advice.
link to original post



Sports betting House Edge, at least as implied, is more than 2%.

MWalz9 almost certainly knows what he wagered as the online casino in question tracks that information and you can look it up anytime. You can look by day, week, month, year, lifetime or select a period (I think). They're all a little different. He could definitely look up lifetime.

As far as online casinos go, I never really took the time to gather all my data, but I have done almost exclusively Advantage Plays (with the only non AP being small amounts of cover play as I felt might be needed...I also only cash out multiples of $10, usually, so will, "Play it down," or, "Play it up") and I would have to say that I am running worse than expected.

Of course, I run worse than expected, in terms of actual results, on almost everything I do, so no surprise there. The good news is my edges are so enormous with online that I can run worse than expected and still easily be profitable.
Last edited by: Mission146 on Dec 6, 2022
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:35:14 AM permalink
(All quotes OnceDear, some statements removed-relevance. Quoting in part to not duplicate, in full, a long post with quotes already)

Quote:

5 figures could soon go. Don't do it 100x

Again, taking all MWalz's posts at face value, there are patterns that many of us can relate to. A few early wins in the $thousands, a few advantage plays that worked, afeeling that all that money behind him was bankroll, but not money in danger, and most pernicious of all, an embracing of the idea that taking a few thousand to the casino would give repeatable opportunities to 'hit and run' for $50, $100 or whatever.
There's a loud siren warning of the dangers of accessible online gambling, too. He seems to have gone from an hour and a half round trip to the casino twice a month, to 6 nights a week in casino, to wagering every day online.



I mean, that's one of the potential dangers of the accessibility of online casinos, right?

There's also the problem of trust in that most people are going to trust legalized/regulated casinos within their own states, so that level of trust makes it more likely that a person is going to play with them.

Another problem with them being legalized/regulated is that you can't even watch the news without seeing an advertisement for one online casino or another. You see billboards, you hear radio ads if you listen to the sports talk, maybe even on music stations, the whole nine.

When it was just the offshore online casinos, you could pretty easily make it so that you never visit or read about them again unless you deliberately seek them out. With state regulated online casinos, you'd have to live in a cave to not be exposed to advertising for those in some fashion.

Anyway, you can expect a lot of similar stories to that of MWalz in the coming years. The good news is that he recognizes a problem and is working to rectify it; I think he will be successful in doing so.

Others won't be so fortunate. Some will go bankrupt as a result. Some will self-terminate as a result; it is what it is.

Quote:

This is exactly why, back in my moderating days, I was so scathing of anyone touting 'Hit and run', 'Win goal' strategies. It's so easy to get seduced by the appeal of such Bull.

Even now, this forum permits and encourages folk to emulate such nonsense.

Should forum moderators have any duty of care? Or are we ALL big boys and girls perfectly capable of staying safe?
MWalz, sadly disproves the latter question quite conclusively. Which just leaves the first question.



I don't know what you want. If it's gambling-related, then people can discuss it here.

I mean, you can check out the post my signature goes to if you want, so if that's not a warning coming from a math guy I don't know what to tell people.

The Moderators have no duty of care. For one thing, unless something changed, the mods don't even get paid.

Secondly, this is a gambling website. With gambling comes the potential risk of getting addicted to gambling. This is a risk that, I would hope, anyone visiting a gambling message board already acknowledges they are taking. If you're even visiting a gambling message board, or WoO, then you already have some level of interest in gambling.

I don't think there's any more a duty of care there than the person at the liquor store, or bartender, has to provide to alcoholics. If you drink, then you probably know what alcoholism is and that it is possible for a person to become an alcoholic. You partake in the spiritous beverages even knowing that potential; it is what it is.

If you don't want to become an alcoholic, then you should never drink in the first place. If you don't want to risk becoming addicted to gambling, then you should never gamble in the first place, and, if you do gamble already and you're concerned with the potential to become addicted, then just stop gambling now and you will make it less likely that you will.

So, I don't think the second question is disproven, because it doesn't have ONE answer.

I think some people are psychologically predisposed to gambling addiction. There was a really good Australian (I think) documentary on the subject. Others, I think, are capable of staying safe---just not everyone. Even some who might be psychologically predisposed to gambling addiction may gamble and still not become addicts.

Thus, if you think MWalz9 disproves that people are categorically unable to, "Stay safe," then the same would have to be true with any activity that can lead to addiction, but the same is not true of all such activities and it's not true of gambling.

However, the one way to guarantee that you never become a gambling addict, I reiterate, is to never gamble.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
odiousgambit
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:43:52 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: OnceDear

None of us are.

???
link to original post

I generally advise that no one who participates in an activity that has led to addiction for others not get smug about their own seeming invulnerability

yes I believe such can be managed safely and many do , let's say most do when it's been legalized [we hope]. Being smug is a step down the wrong road however.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: ďThanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!Ē   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
SOOPOO
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December 6th, 2022 at 6:44:19 AM permalink
The problem with this site is that there is chatter from APs that actually make a living doing this stuff, but there are some non AP gamblers listening but not processing the information correctly. I myself have yapped about the easy money from the online sports books, but that is not gambling. Itís certainly not betting $5k on the Bills because I like them and they are in TV. Thatís gambling.

Stay strong Mwalz!
JohnnyQ
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December 6th, 2022 at 7:25:48 AM permalink
I don't think it could hurt to have a more prominent "Problem Gambling Phone Number" shown on the WoV site.

If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the homepage, you can find a name for a help site that I think is based in England.

There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
OnceDear
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:10:12 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

Anyway, I don't believe that the house edge or the player advantage is all there is to it.

That's all there is to it.

That's exactly why people get into bad situations like this, people are going around thinking/ being told there's something more to it.link to original post



Any poster that promotes the playing of -EV games as some way of making money, with voodoo, hit and run, money management, win goals, educated guessing or other Bull is contributing to the next generation of MWalz's.

Shame on them.

Anyone saying that the house edge doesn't matter, if you just get the betting level right, or observe the patterns on the board, or press into streaks. Shame on them. They are either misguided or malevolent. But always Wrong, Wrong, WRONG.
Anyone that promotes such stuff while having a secret edge. I think that's even worse.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:16:42 AM permalink
I don't care to share in hopes it prevents someone else from falling down the same rabbit hole I did.

Also, this is still the only thread I opened. So I have no reason to want to gamble, trust me, I touched the hot oven and my hand still has 3rd degree burns, Im not going back to the oven anytime soon.

First off, the post about me crying was not literal. I did lose the money I had set aside for my mortgage, but did not cry. Luckily, my parents bailed me out.

The rest of the story...

Yes, I used to make $30,000 a year. I started off betting as entertainment and would buy in for $100 or so and play $5/hand blackjack, $5 line bets on craps or bet $5.50 or $11 on a sports bet and chalk it up as entertainment expense if I lost. It was under control and I had 0 issues managing it. I NEVER got into a pickle at this time.

Fast forward a few years and West Virginia makes online gambling legal about the same time my income increased tremendously. I started making over $250,000/year and the $5 bets werent doing it for me. So I started buying in for $1,000 at a time and playing $50-$100 a hand, $50 craps line bets with odds, and $55 to $220 on a sporting event. FanDuel made me a VIP and treated me like a king! I had a personal rep who would send me $500-$2000 bonus money a week, gave me tickets for free to pro sporting events, and the promos were 10x what normal players were getting. Some of that info is in another thread I started. Again, I still felt I had it under control and my bankroll could handle it. Even losing, I was able to maintain a 6 figure bank account and felt financially stable.

My job is commission based so my income then took a hit, I went from $220,000/yr to about $120,000/yr. The problem, I was still hooked on BIG bets and I couldnt control it and back down. The problem, was my income could no longer handle it. I started dipping into the savings. I was chasing losses. BIG TIME! Id deposit $1,000, trying to win a few hundred, but Id lose the $1,000. Then I felt I had to get the $1,000 back too! So Id deposit $5,000. If I lost it, Ineeded it back too. So Id deposit $20,000.

I hit some licks during this time. I have 6 tax tickets for 2022 even though I have a HUGE net loss. There were some very good days. Id say out of a 365 day year, gambling every day, I was a net winner 330 of those days. The problem is the 330 days of "net wins" did not out weigh the 35 days of HUGE losses.

When I self excluded, my FanDuel account alone, not counting any brick and mortar play at The Mardi Gras was approx. $6.5 million wagered and a net loss of around $117,000!

Please dont let this happen to you!
rxwine
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:17:56 AM permalink
Good luck!

Addictions are a funny thing, but not in a good way. Some people have no problem with addictions in many areas but may be fall into something that triggers them into the behavior.

I suggest you stay away from the gambling environment as well, until you have not thought about gambling again for several months in a row. That can take many months or even several years for some people.

Again, good luck.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:22:23 AM permalink
I also recognize different things are addictive for different people.

Some people can take 1 drink of alcohol and become an alcoholic. I can drink a 30 pack with buddies and get hammered drunk and then not drink again for months! Alcohol isnt addictive to me. I can control it.

Some of you may very well be able to control gambling. I, however, obviously cant!

Best of luck to you all!
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:32:42 AM permalink
Quote: mwalz9

Best of luck to you all!

And to you as well. I am optimistic that now that you know this, you can stay strong and avoid gambling.

As others I think have already pointed out, it took courage to post your story. Thank-you for that.
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
Mission146
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December 6th, 2022 at 8:49:40 AM permalink
I always get worried when people like the big bets.

I'll take a 100% deposit match bonus with some small playthrough requirement and people will ask me, "How can you possibly stand betting $0.50/hand; how can you stand playing Baccarat for $1/hand?"

It's because I want to guarantee that I make profits.

I could make $50 bets, say on a $500 deposit match with small rollover, but then it would be possible to lose money overall which, to me, would be silly. Why do I want to risk the possibility of losing money overall on a promotion that can be played in a way that, short of the casino not paying me, I can't possibly fail to make a profit?

So, when I know that someone bets big online, even when playing +EV promotions, always gets me suspicious and worried about this sort of thing.

My general advice to people is that if betting big gives you an adrenaline rush, then you might be better off not to gamble. That's just my opinion. I guess it's different if you only do +EV stuff, but even then, I would have my concerns about anyone who gets an adrenaline rush or euphoric feeling from it.

My mentality is when I lose I'm furious and when I win, I don't really care. I'm also not optimistic and assume I will run below my EV, which I almost always do.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
rxwine
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December 6th, 2022 at 9:13:32 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I always get worried when people like the big bets.

I'll take a 100% deposit match bonus with some small playthrough requirement and people will ask me, "How can you possibly stand betting $0.50/hand; how can you stand playing Baccarat for $1/hand?"

It's because I want to guarantee that I make profits.

I could make $50 bets, say on a $500 deposit match with small rollover, but then it would be possible to lose money overall which, to me, would be silly. Why do I want to risk the possibility of losing money overall on a promotion that can be played in a way that, short of the casino not paying me, I can't possibly fail to make a profit?

So, when I know that someone bets big online, even when playing +EV promotions, always gets me suspicious and worried about this sort of thing.

My general advice to people is that if betting big gives you an adrenaline rush, then you might be better off not to gamble. That's just my opinion. I guess it's different if you only do +EV stuff, but even then, I would have my concerns about anyone who gets an adrenaline rush or euphoric feeling from it.

My mentality is when I lose I'm furious and when I win, I don't really care. I'm also not optimistic and assume I will run below my EV, which I almost always do.
link to original post



Picking out part of your post to requote:
Quote:

My general advice to people is that if betting big gives you an adrenaline rush, then you might be better off not to gamble. That's just my opinion. I guess it's different if you only do +EV stuff, but even then, I would have my concerns about anyone who gets an adrenaline rush or euphoric feeling from it.



A good warning sign to know what to avoid is when you first notice the beginning of a compulsion. Compulsion warning signs are when you start changing your original plans to do something else, so that you can do that thing, whatever it is. It's so much easier to break this initial phase than the hell someone may eventually have to deal with.

Of course, if it's some positive thing, you may embrace.it. But even some positive things may interfere wiith other responsibilities. Like someone who loves to work and succeed 16 hours a day and neglects all his kid's childhoods.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
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December 6th, 2022 at 9:43:18 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

(All quotes OnceDear, some statements removed-relevance. Quoting in part to not duplicate, in full, a long post with quotes already)

Quote:

5 figures could soon go. Don't do it 100x

Again, taking all MWalz's posts at face value, there are patterns that many of us can relate to. A few early wins in the $thousands, a few advantage plays that worked, afeeling that all that money behind him was bankroll, but not money in danger, and most pernicious of all, an embracing of the idea that taking a few thousand to the casino would give repeatable opportunities to 'hit and run' for $50, $100 or whatever.
There's a loud siren warning of the dangers of accessible online gambling, too. He seems to have gone from an hour and a half round trip to the casino twice a month, to 6 nights a week in casino, to wagering every day online.



I mean, that's one of the potential dangers of the accessibility of online casinos, right?

There's also the problem of trust in that most people are going to trust legalized/regulated casinos within their own states, so that level of trust makes it more likely that a person is going to play with them.

Another problem with them being legalized/regulated is that you can't even watch the news without seeing an advertisement for one online casino or another. You see billboards, you hear radio ads if you listen to the sports talk, maybe even on music stations, the whole nine.

When it was just the offshore online casinos, you could pretty easily make it so that you never visit or read about them again unless you deliberately seek them out. With state regulated online casinos, you'd have to live in a cave to not be exposed to advertising for those in some fashion.

Anyway, you can expect a lot of similar stories to that of MWalz in the coming years. The good news is that he recognizes a problem and is working to rectify it; I think he will be successful in doing so.

Others won't be so fortunate. Some will go bankrupt as a result. Some will self-terminate as a result; it is what it is.

Quote:

This is exactly why, back in my moderating days, I was so scathing of anyone touting 'Hit and run', 'Win goal' strategies. It's so easy to get seduced by the appeal of such Bull.

Even now, this forum permits and encourages folk to emulate such nonsense.

Should forum moderators have any duty of care? Or are we ALL big boys and girls perfectly capable of staying safe?
MWalz, sadly disproves the latter question quite conclusively. Which just leaves the first question.



I don't know what you want. If it's gambling-related, then people can discuss it here.

I mean, you can check out the post my signature goes to if you want, so if that's not a warning coming from a math guy I don't know what to tell people.

The Moderators have no duty of care. For one thing, unless something changed, the mods don't even get paid.

Secondly, this is a gambling website. With gambling comes the potential risk of getting addicted to gambling. This is a risk that, I would hope, anyone visiting a gambling message board already acknowledges they are taking. If you're even visiting a gambling message board, or WoO, then you already have some level of interest in gambling.

I don't think there's any more a duty of care there than the person at the liquor store, or bartender, has to provide to alcoholics. If you drink, then you probably know what alcoholism is and that it is possible for a person to become an alcoholic. You partake in the spiritous beverages even knowing that potential; it is what it is.

If you don't want to become an alcoholic, then you should never drink in the first place. If you don't want to risk becoming addicted to gambling, then you should never gamble in the first place, and, if you do gamble already and you're concerned with the potential to become addicted, then just stop gambling now and you will make it less likely that you will.

So, I don't think the second question is disproven, because it doesn't have ONE answer.

I think some people are psychologically predisposed to gambling addiction. There was a really good Australian (I think) documentary on the subject. Others, I think, are capable of staying safe---just not everyone. Even some who might be psychologically predisposed to gambling addiction may gamble and still not become addicts.

Thus, if you think MWalz9 disproves that people are categorically unable to, "Stay safe," then the same would have to be true with any activity that can lead to addiction, but the same is not true of all such activities and it's not true of gambling.

However, the one way to guarantee that you never become a gambling addict, I reiterate, is to never gamble.
link to original post

A president has been set regarding members with a gambling problem. IIRC 2 people we know of have had their accounts terminated for their own good. IIRC that's why Kenty was booted.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ChumpChange
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December 6th, 2022 at 9:45:22 AM permalink
That would be a precedent, but I'll never set foot inside of a Trump property if I can help it. Surveillance camera footage probably goes to problem gamblers like James Woods, who may have just quit twitter today..
MDawg
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December 6th, 2022 at 11:32:13 AM permalink
There's no way MWalz9 could know exactly what his handle was at a brick and mortar casino, unless he kept a running tally and asked his host about it most every day. He posted about how he would hit the brick and mortar casino on the way home from work many times a week, if not every weekday! I mean even during periods that I am in Vegas continuously I don't play every day!

I stand by my assessment that he didn't know when to quit and kept playing until he lost it all most every time, towards the bitter end I mean. I assume he was chasing losses and trying to win too much given his bankroll and max bet, time and again.

Anyway, I don't recall his ever claiming to have made 250K in a year, I accept that he did. Maybe that happened only one year and that was the year he stepped up his casino play. I do recall his saying that his income was somehow dramatically lowered. It just goes to show that income isn't everything, it takes a lot more than income to be wealthy. The ability to sock away multi multi millions comes from more than good income it comes from good habits. And then also - some wealthy people have a lot of assets but not as much liquid as one would think.

Basically, if you can't take a few hundred K hit at the casinos and yawn, you shouldn't be playing big in the first place. Not that anyone wants to lose, but you shouldn't be playing with blood money.

That comment Vegasrider made about how if you're single versus if you have a family that you should be more responsible of course also makes sense.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
100xOdds
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December 6th, 2022 at 2:25:13 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I know a few people that are Advantage Players who are addicted to action/playing, but they only play games with an advantage they won't touch -EV stuff unless absolutely necessary for cover. They are super successful.
Aside from being smart, their success is also contributed to the eagerness to find +EV plays and to put a ton of hours in.
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i've tried but cant stick to the rule of ONLY playing known +ev situations.

i chase high progressives.
ie: $40 (4x reset) mini

i also believe that max bet will immensely help in hitting that progressive once i trigger the jackpot bonus.
unfortunately, getting that jackpot bonus to activate is the problem.

i've lost $2k in an slot chasing a $60 mini. (4x reset)
combination of lack of bonus rounds and when i get them, it paid very little plus a long time before getting a jackpot pick but hitting the minor thus needing to play more to get another shot at the mini.

other times i max bet chasing a high progressive and hit a handpay.
i guess i like the action/variance which is bad if you're AP.

2023 resolution: wait till it's 8x reset
reason: i dread entering all those w2g's when i file my 2022 taxes next year

and it should cut down on my swings
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
DRich
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Mission146
December 6th, 2022 at 4:21:50 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

MWalz is a man from West Virginia, so there's no way he cried, thus the event is satire.



He is from West Virginia. He may have cried when he found out his sister was pregnant and it was his brothers baby and not his.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
EvenBob
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December 6th, 2022 at 5:53:50 PM permalink
Quote: mwalz9

Hey guys,

Long time no see.

Just wanted to pop in and see how everyone was.

Myself, I have been struggling, but I am on the road to recovery. I recently stopped gambling. I self excluded from every casino (brick and mortar and online) in West Virginia. I started GA meetings and have a counselor. I needed help, and needed it bad! I was about to lose everything I have, including my family. In the last 3 years since online gambling became legal here in WV, my net loss is 6 figures on a high 7 figure amount played. My credit cards are maxed out and Im on the verge of bankruptcy.

Luckily, I stopped it in time!

Hope all is well here. Miss you guys!
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"My job is not done until the customers last check to the casino bounces." Benny Binion in the 1950s, owner of the Horseshoe Casino in downtown Vegas. The attitude of casinos has not changed a bit. They will bleed you dry.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
BillHasRetired
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Mission146Mukke
December 6th, 2022 at 6:38:45 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

(snipped to relevant part)

"My job is not done until the customers last check to the casino bounces." Benny Binion in the 1950s, owner of the Horseshoe Casino in downtown Vegas. The attitude of casinos has not changed a bit. They will bleed you dry.
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Bleed you dry, kick you to the curb, and forget who you are.

I have a compulsive personality. I know it. Sometimes it's a very, very good thing to have: mastering a new software paradigm (let to a book and about two years of speaking gigs); picking up the writing/author gig (it's not easy, but I'm in the fun part of the 'S' curve); and sticking to an investigation until it's done. Obviously, when the compulsion is towards the vices, things go bad rather quickly.

I know that I am in danger when it comes to gambling. Therefore, I set limits around myself. My ATM card does not link to my main checking, but a small account I fund with mad money. Casino credit? I have a low limit. I have no other way to get cash in the casino, so my ability to steam brick-walls fairly soon. I refuse to patronize any online casinos, even when I lived in a state where I could do so (my new state prohibits online gambling)

But, the greatest limitation on my gambling behavior is my spouse, which is a good thing. The worst day this year is when I told her that 50% of this year's losses happened on that one trip. My decision to be accountable to her keeps me in check when I'm in the lions' den. She is the only thing that has kept all of my compulsions at bay in my life. I shudder to think where I'd be without her.
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