Buying a Used Car

Quote: EvenBob

Looking at a 2008 Toyota Avalon this was sitting on a used car lot since last summer. Has 205 thousand miles on it. This is a good vehicle, top of the line for Toyota. It's basically the same as a Lexus, uses a lot of the same parts. The Blue Book on this car is about $6,000. The car lot had it marked at $6,000 and has marked it down 6 times since then. It's now $3,500. My problem is I cannot figure out why nobody has bought this car. The salesman I talked to has no idea why it's still there. I called a Toyota dealership, they said it doesn't cost any more to fix an Avalon then it does any other Toyota. $3,500 is practically giving it away, why are people afraid of this car.

Take it to a mechanic to check it out.

Quote: EvenBob

Looking at a 2008 Toyota Avalon this was sitting on a used car lot since last summer. Has 205 thousand miles on it. This is a good vehicle, top of the line for Toyota. It's basically the same as a Lexus, uses a lot of the same parts. The Blue Book on this car is about $6,000. The car lot had it marked at $6,000 and has marked it down 6 times since then. It's now $3,500. My problem is I cannot figure out why nobody has bought this car. The salesman I talked to has no idea why it's still there. I called a Toyota dealership, they said it doesn't cost any more to fix an Avalon then it does any other Toyota. $3,500 is practically giving it away, why are people afraid of this car.

My guess is that it is just the number of miles scaring people away. Most of us grew up with the thought when a car gets to 100k miles it is at the end of its life. I know that isn't the case today but 200k miles is just intimidating to most. I am selling my SUV with 18,500 miles because it is American and the warranty runs out soon.

Is it one of the models that if you don’t park it in a garage non stop it’s only a matter of time before the catalytic converter is sawed off?

Several Toyota’s have that issue as an epidemic where it’s affecting the resale value. Despite being an extremely reliable vehicle any Prius before 2016 are next to unbuyable right now because you can’t keep a cat on it, at least in pacific or mountain time zone.

Quote: billryan

I thought you needed a minivan?

This car would be for me to drive personally

Quote: unJon

Take it to a mechanic to check it out.

I think EB is determined to keep trying to guess whether a vehicle is mechanically sound.

Quote: rxwine

I think EB is determined to keep trying to guess whether a vehicle is mechanically sound.

I already talked to the guy who works on my cars and he says don't bother getting cars checked out if they have 200,000 miles on them. By then it's a safe bet that everything on the car is about to fail, it's just a matter of what when and where. You pays your money and you takes your chances..

Your mechanic is wrong.

Many cars if well maintained can and do provide good service beyond 200K miles.

I should know: I own and maintain three old Volvos, all run like tops and have over 200K miles.

But hey, you play roulette, so just spin the wheel and ... hope ...

OR find another mechanic, someone who actually knows about these things, and have the car inspected.

The big issue in your neck of the woods is probably rust.

Quote: rxwine

I think EB is determined to keep trying to guess whether a vehicle is mechanically sound.

I wonder if being a good guesser at roulette translates to a good guesser of vehicle soundness.

Quote: unJon

Take it to a mechanic to check it out.

The average mechanic check is really only going to tell you if there is something easy and inexpensive to fix, or if there is something noticeable wrong with the car and it's a DON'T BUY. Other than that, they are just making an educated guess on the things they can't see and check.


There is a theory that if a car has lots of scratches, dents, or dings, it's likely the driver(s) were careless and they probably didn't take good care of the vehicle's maintenance.

Quote: AxelWolf

The average mechanic check is really only going to tell you if there is something easy and inexpensive to fix, or if there is something noticeable wrong with the car and it's a DON'T BUY. Other than that, they are just making an educated guess on the things they can't see and check.


There is a theory that if a car has lots of scratches, dents, or dings, it's likely the driver(s) were careless and they probably didn't take good care of the vehicle's maintenance.

It’s exactly the “don’t buy” warning that is useful to see if it is triggered, you know, before you actually buy.

Quote: AxelWolf

The average mechanic check is really only going to tell you if there is something easy and inexpensive to fix, or if there is something noticeable wrong with the car and it's a DON'T BUY. Other than that, they are just making an educated guess on the things they can't see and check.

Bingo! That's pretty much what my mechanic said, he can find the obvious stuff, but on a car with that many miles there's way too much stuff that can't be checked, you just have to take a chance. Mechanics are not gods. These cars are so loaded with electrical components now that nobody can tell what's going to happen and when something's going to fail. You read enough reviews you learn that even the mechanics that work on these every day in the dealerships don't know what's going on a lot of the time. You bring your car in and they don't know how to fix it, much of the time they don't even know what's wrong with it.

Quote: MrV

Your mechanic is wrong.

No he's not. Like a car salesman told me last week, they make high mileage cars now, if you get one with over 200,000 miles on it it's the guy who had it before you who took advantage of the high mileage part. You get to take advantage of the 'waiting for it to die part'. The oldest Chevy dealership in my city has been there since 1925 and they don't take any car in on trade that has over 200,000 miles on it. They said it's bad for business and bad for there reputation. They do not want constant calls from customers telling them the car they sold them 6 weeks ago died.

I think most dealers will take anything that runs as a trade they just won’t put it on the lot, they’ll just put the high mileage stuff straight into a wholesale auction.

Quote: mcallister3200

I think most dealers will take anything that runs as a trade they just won’t put it on the lot, they’ll just put the high mileage stuff straight into a wholesale auction.

Used cars have been selling so well for the last year there is an under supply available. They will probably start putting anything on the lot.

This is a great time to sell a used car as most dealerships are paying a premium because their supply is drying up. In the next year there will be an under supply of new cars too as the manufacturers can't get the semiconductors they need.

i just bought a NEW EDGE[ great vehicle] ] problem is it has 1600 miles on it when I bought it.. THEY SOLD IT as new.. When I bitc,,, about it they DIdn't seem to care... I didn't know dealerships could even do that...

Quote: daveyandersen1

i just bought a NEW EDGE[ great vehicle] ] problem is it has 1600 miles on it when I bought it.. THEY SOLD IT as new.. When I bitc,,, about it they DIdn't seem to care... I didn't know dealerships could even do that...

If it hasn't been registered they can sell it as new. Many times they will give a new car as a loaner when someone is getting service done on their car. They also let the dealer drive them with dealer plates and still sell them as new. Hopefully you noticed the 1600 miles before buying it and negotiating the price. The car I bought on Friday had 6 miles on it.

Not to flog a deceased nag, but the idea that all high mileage cars should be avoided is too draconian.

Any competent mechanic should be able to examine a car, test drive it, run a couple tests and tell you pretty accurately whether it is a lemon or not.

Check the condition of all the fluids, belts and hoses as well as the interior and body as that indicates the type of care it received.

Test all the buttons / functions, the windows, sunroof etc. to make sure they all work.

Probably the best test is a compression test to verify the health of the engine.

Do a free online VIN check / pay for a carfax to discover its prior history.

Does it smoke, make weird noise, drive smoothly and quietly?

If available pour over the car's prior service records.

EB tells us he's looking at a Avalon which has 205,000 miles and tells us there is no way even a mechanic could tell us what might be wrong.

So, why is he looking at it?

Quote: MrV

Any competent mechanic should be able to examine a car,

Should and 'can' are two different things. Even the service department at the Toyota dealership today told me that these cars are so heavily loaded with electronics that can go bad at any time that buying a used vehicle with any mileage on it is a crap shoot. It could cost a fortune just finding what the problem is. Mister V thanks this is still 1968 when a good mechanic could spend half an hour with a car and tell you exactly what's going on. The most electronically complicated component in the vehicle was the electric cigarette lighter. These days you have computers and computer modules running every aspect of the car. Dealership mechanics who work on these things for a living often have no idea what's wrong on a high-mileage car. Some Dumbo mechanic you're paying a hundred bucks to is supposed to know? He'll make a best guess just like everybody else.

Quote: rxwine

EB tells us he's looking at a Avalon which has 205,000 miles and tells us there is no way even a mechanic could tell us what might be wrong.
So, why is he looking at it?

Because every high mileage car is a gamble, no matter what any mechanic says about it. The honest ones will tell you that. You are nearing the end a car's life, not the middle of it. Will it go 15000 more miles or 50000. Nobody could know

Whenever you see 150 point inspections listed in "certified pre-owned" cars, they're looking at a lot of things within a car to see if everything is fine at that point. Obviously something like cracked belts or leaking engines will be seen and indicate a problem down the road, so these cars with these problems wouldn't pass. Any kind of mechanic inspection is better than nothing, and yes nobody would know what would happen down the road on a car that passes, but the car which didn't pass the test would be what you would want to eliminate. Of course before an inspection, you're going to want the price negotiated first you're fine with or there is no point getting an inspection. With older cars, not everything needs to be perfect, because some things not working like air conditioning is already part of the ancient car price, though you might not expect to have all the brakes and struts fixed really soon though, things like that.

Quote: EvenBob

. Mister V thanks this is still 1968 when a good mechanic could spend half an hour with a car and tell you exactly what's going on.

You don't know a lot about maintaining and repairing cars and trucks of various vintages, do you, EB?

Starting around the mid-1990's cars now have OBD (on board diagnostic) systems where anybody with the correct tool can scan the car's computer for codes showing faults: this is now the main starting point for troubleshooting problems, i.e. checking for codes.

Scanner's are cheap: I have one and use it for the only OBD equipped rig we own, a newer F-250 4X4.

So just by plugging it in to the car a potential owner who knows about cars (me) or his mechanic can instantly see what is going on and needs attention.

Most of the used cars people are likely to run acrooss are OBD equipped, if about 25 years old or newer.

Great stuff!

Also, just because a car is new does not mean it is trouble-free.

For example, a few years ago my son bought a brand new GMC pickup with automatic transmission: the transmission never worked right.

Took it to the dealer four times to fix it, without luck.

I successfully made a lemon law claim agains GMC and made them buy it back.

Buying a car, new or used, is always a gamble.

Test drive the car to an Auto-zone and they’ll lend you a scanner free. Other places may also do it.

Or just buy one: they're inexpensive, and come with instructions.

Easy to use, once you leave your comfort zone.

You don't need to be a competent, shade tree mechanic to use one and understand the information it provides.

Bring one with you to check out any mid-90's and newer car you are thinking of buying, whether on a dealer's lot or with a private party, the seller has no grounds to object to you testing it.

Quote: MrV

Or just buy one: they're inexpensive, and come with instructions.

Easy to use, once you leave your comfort zone.

You don't need to be a competent, shade tree mechanic to use one and understand the information it provides.

Bring one with you to check out any mid-90's and newer car you are thinking of buying, whether on a dealer's lot or with a private party, the seller has no grounds to object to you testing it.

Mine is Bluetooth and has an app on my phone. I think I paid $17.

Quote: MrV

Starting around the mid-1990's cars now have OBD (on board diagnostic)

Wow, no kidding. Good grief.. Too bad the things you really need to know when buying a high mileage older car, it doesn't tell you. You still have to flip a coin or make a guess because nobody knows what's going to happen 3 months from now. No matter what your cute little diagnostic toy tells you.. You act like you pay some mechanic a hundred bucks he goes over it it says to you, yep, go ahead and buy it. This car has three years left on it before anything major goes wrong. You're living in a dream world.

It's a good start, EB, and time and money well spent.

Codes will tell you a lot of info that a prospective purchaser might want to know: do you even understand anything about cars, EB?

Your comment to the effect that codes are of little real value when checking out a high mileage used car is, quite frankly, absurd and I can only assume is based upon a lack of first hand knowlede of cars, trucks, and how they work, specifically.

People like you make me laugh, saying "never buy a car with over 200K miles."

Baloney.

I'm about to sell one of our Volvos, it has well over 200K miles on it, is in great shape and will likely provide many more years of service if the new owner continues to maintain it as well as I have.

Like I said above, buying any car, new or used, is always a gamble.

Quote: EvenBob

Wow, no kidding. Good grief.. Too bad the things you really need to know when buying a high mileage older car, it doesn't tell you. You still have to flip a coin or make a guess because nobody knows what's going to happen 3 months from now. No matter what your cute little diagnostic toy tells you.. You act like you pay some mechanic a hundred bucks he goes over it it says to you, yep, go ahead and buy it. This car has three years left on it before anything major goes wrong. You're living in a dream world.

A high mileage car is tapped out of almost all value, there isn't much risk if everything seems fine and there aren't many other things already wrong which are major nuisances. I'd bet you would be on your way with that minivan already if you hadn't balked.

Find a mechanic you trust and let him find a car for you. More often than not, he'll have a customer looking to sell one and he knows all about it.

Thanks D RICH I should have noticed the miles before i signed the papers.. next time I'l lbe smarter

All things come to he who waits. Been looking for a specific used vehicle for almost two months. Almost gave in a couple of times and settled for something less than I wanted. Then last night lightning struck. I check Craigslist one last time and there's a 2004 Toyota Sienna minivan with 155000 miles on it going for $5,200. Says it was listed 20 minutes ago.

I called the number, a guy answered the phone 'Pastor John.' he's a local minister who bought this van in January for his wife but it's so big she's terrified to drive it. He paid $6500 for it and now he's selling it for $5,200. Says he has the Carfax he will email it to me. I get the Carfax and almost fall out of my chair. This was a one owner vehicle and the guy not only changed the oil like a religion every three or four thousand miles he did every single recommended factory check up and replacement. He got every single recall fixed. It said replace the timing belt and water pump at 90,000 miles, so he did. The Carfax goes on and on like this

So I call Pastor John back immediately and buy it over the phone sight unseen. He says I won't regret it's Immaculate inside and out. There's not a speck of rust anywhere on the body in the interior looks brand new. Heated leather seats leather steering wheel, sonar parking, the whistles and bells on this thing are endless. It says on the Carfax the out the door price on this was $37,000. I get him to drop the price to $5,000 which he was expecting anyway. At noon today he delivered it to my house.

The first thing I notice is it has a new set of Bridgestone tires on it which he says he put on two months ago for almost $1,000. 60000 mile guaranteed on the tires. The interior looks like nobody has driven this vehicle. There were certainly never any children in there spilling grape Nehi all over the carpeting. Sunroof, electric sliding doors, 10 speaker stereo system, radar cruise control which I do not totally understand yet, DVD player in the back which is useless to me. Just think whistle and bells and this van has it.

People have driven the second generation Toyota Siennas 400000 and 500000 and even 600000 miles on the same engine and transmission. This is the 5th van I have owned in the last 40 years. It drives like a Cadillac, it's so smooth on the road. This hit every bullet point for me. The original owner had it for 99% of the miles. He took extremely good care of it. Has a Carfax that will completely knock your socks off. Has a new set of tires. Is not the awful all wheel drive, does not have the awful run-flat tires. Both of which are huge deal breakers on these vans. Pastor John even delivered it to me with a full tank of gas, $60 in gas. It's like playing the slot machines, if you just keep going and don't give up you will hit a jackpot eventually. I was just in the right place at the right time. Why did he sell it so cheap with a new set of tires on it? I suspect to punish his wife. He loves the van she hates the van. She followed him to my house and didn't even come into the driveway, like she was angry or something. He's got 7500 dollars in the thing, and he's forced to sell it against his will. So he sells it for $5,000 to show his wife she is losing money for the family. I could easily sell this van next week for $6,000, probably more.

I took this picture with my phone after I parked it. That's the Wilderness of my backyard but I dare not enter alone.

OK, so when it hits 200K miles and you later want to sell it you'll stop yourself from doing so because nobody in their right mind buys a car with over 200K miles on it, right?

Quote: MrV

OK, so when it hits 200K miles

I only drive three or four thousand miles a year, I'll never see it hit 200K.

Congratulation EB. Sounds like a real steal. Did you check the VINs on the motor and other places? Sometimes people sell stolen cars with fake VINs on the windshields, then SOL. Other than that, I would be suspicious of something sent by email, but the car seems to be described to be perfect, so good maintenance would make sense.

I’m impressed EB. The fact that multiple things already checked out makes not sitting on it waiting for someone to scoop it out from under you seem a good move. Even if you do have some unexpected repair it will still be a good deal I would think.

Quote: rxwine

makes not sitting on it waiting for someone to scoop it out from under you seem a good move.

You have to have the cash in your pocket and be ready to pounce like a cat on a mouse when a good one comes along. I missed the others but I knew if I just kept going, like everything else in gambling, you will get lucky. But you have to be really really patient and not settle for less. The temptation is to just give up and buy any old piece of crap and hope it works out. Even a Carfax is often sorely lacking in details. This one was nothing but details. If I would have said to him let me come over and take it to my mechanic and have him go over it and then I'll let you know, it would have been gone before I got to his house. And I don't blame them, somebody shows up before me with the money, sell it to him. I would. Or let me come to your house and put a diagnostic tool on it and see what it says and then I'll let you know. The vehicle would be gone gone gone.

Forget buying a car from a used car lot, those jerks lied to me over and over. I would call them one day and they would give me a story and I would call the next day for more info and they would tell me a different story. They will say anything to sell a car. For instance, the manager tell me they have had the car for 2 weeks and already dropped the price. I look it up on VIN Check and it says they've had the car for 9 months and dropped the price five times. Liars.

Private sellers try to rip you off also.

I was looking at a used car that should have an aking price in the low thirties, the guy was asking fifty.

His ad showed the VIN, so using a free online VIN lookup site I saw that he'd bought it last fall for mid thirties.

I sent him an email asking what he'd done in the past six months that added fifteen thousand in value and of course he could only blather as he'd done nothing new; he replied:

"There is a silver 2006 listed online right now with 60,000 miles not the most desirable color for $36,000, there’s another one that’s a black one couple years newer with 25,000 miles on it listed for $95,000 I would have to think this car with 19,000 miles only never in the body shop black on black certified by Ferrari dealership at 49,000 is fair market value."

Uh, but dude, you paid a car dealer fifteen grand less than your current private party asking price and have done nothing to the car.

I guess "greed never sleeps."

Quote: MrV

I guess "greed never sleeps."

I'm guessing about everyone on the WOV board is quite happy for any kind of windfall of cash or value returned.

Whether they're going about it the right way, is another story, and often the subject of many threads.

I had no idea that the radar controlled cruise control was available in 2004.

Wow, I just Googled it and it was first available in 1992.

Quote: MrV

Private sellers try to rip you off also.

The example you listed isn't really somebody ripping you off, it's just somebody who thinks this car is worth more than it is. Ripping you off would be saying the car was never in an accident when it was. Lying to you about gas mileage, lying about who the previous owners were, misrepresenting the car in any way.

Speaking of Carfax, Scotty Kilmer does not trust them. Too many times over the years when he's known the cars were in accidents because he fixed them, this was not listed on the Carfax. He says the worst case was a Mustang that was in three separate bad accidents and none of them showed up on Carfax.

I discovered towards the end that you can get out paying for a Carfax if a seller does not provide one. Go to Carfax and there's an area you click on that lets you enter your own cars VIN number and it will tell you what maintenance has been done to your car over the last few years. Just enter the VIN number of the car you're looking at, they don't know it's not yours. Then go to VIN Check which is free and it will tell you how many owners the vehicle had, if it has been stolen or in an accident. For free you have most of the information provided on an expensive Carfax.

Good deal. I considered going to auto mechanic school for a year. Not as high a paying a job. I had a few experiences that mechanics overcharge. Anonymous dealer service rep online confessed that they do overcharge. An ex mechanic told me he was depressed being one and became an electrician. Not bc he ripped ppl off. He didnt say why.

So what I was talking about, was people sell stolen cars privately with fake VINs and real titles for these fake VINs. They'll IIRC register the car in 1 state and then sell it many more. Eventually the cops come to look at the stolen cars with bad titles and people are out 100% since the cops know a single car can only be sold to 1 person at a time. You have to check the VINs in multiple locations on the vehicles to be sure you're buying the car you think you are. Normally the scammers only fake the VIN on the windshields.

And the ordeal continues. When I was calling different car dealers about half of them would tell me that if I buy a car from them they can do the title transfer collect the sales tax and give me a new license plate right there and save me the trouble of going to the DMV. I thought that's nice, and forgot about it.

Now I know why they were all telling me that. Last year the DMV in Michigan went to appointment only. Because only a certain number of people are allowed into the DMV at one time because of the pandemic. I looked it up online and the next available appointment is in August. It tells me that every day at noon I have to call a certain number and it will tell me if any available appointments have come up. This is why all those dealers were telling me they could do the DMV work on the premises. I had no idea this was happening, I only go to the DMV once every 8 years to renew my driver's license. So I might not be able to put a plate on this car till midsummer. Unbelievable.

A cop might be sympathetic if you use your other car's plate when you want to drive it due to the difficulty of getting an appointment.. They might give you just a warning and let you go home if you say you're not going to do it again.

But then again, they might not. It's a pretty good chunk of change in fines.

Quote: EvenBob

And the ordeal continues. When I was calling different car dealers about half of them would tell me that if I buy a car from them they can do the title transfer collect the sales tax and give me a new license plate right there and save me the trouble of going to the DMV. I thought that's nice, and forgot about it.

Now I know why they were all telling me that. Last year the DMV in Michigan went to appointment only. Because only a certain number of people are allowed into the DMV at one time because of the pandemic. I looked it up online and the next available appointment is in August. It tells me that every day at noon I have to call a certain number and it will tell me if any available appointments have come up. This is why all those dealers were telling me they could do the DMV work on the premises. I had no idea this was happening, I only go to the DMV once every 8 years to renew my driver's license. So I might not be able to put a plate on this car till midsummer. Unbelievable.

Thank you for enlightening us on the state of affairs regarding this. You might be able to use old plates or something and not be penalized, people are getting away with a lot right now. Let us know what you find along your journey.

The shop that sold me my last motorcycle managed to register it 200 miles away in another county for the same reason as you have. I don't know if that's an option there.

Find a place, not busy.

Before the pandemic, Austin had about a 3 hour wait time. We took a number and waited for our number. I walked across the street, ate lunch. Came back in time with a doggy bag stuffing my face with more food.

In Corpus the wait is only 30 min even during the pandemic.

Quote: rxwine

A cop might be sympathetic if you

I called the sheriff and they told me that if I make an appointment at the DMV and carry a copy of the appointment and the title and a proof of insurance I can drive a car without license plates until the appointment. He said hundreds if not thousands of people are doing this in Michigan. My appointments for July 15th.

I won a car recently and it took me two months before I could get the title from the state in order to sell it.

Quote: rxwine

The shop that sold me my last motorcycle managed to register it 200 miles away in another county for the same reason as you have. I don't know if that's an option there.

Find a place, not busy.

I checked a few other offices 20 or 30 miles away and they're all the same, backed up for months.