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billryan
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July 25th, 2018 at 11:20:58 AM permalink
I wish people cared half as much about their favorite presidents lies as they do about some shill on a forum.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
VCUSkyhawk
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July 25th, 2018 at 12:01:28 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

I wish people cared half as much about their favorite presidents lies as they do about some shill on a forum.



I am very interested in politics, however the reason that I don't engage into the debates in this forum (and on other social media) as it all boils down to this.

Liberals: Trump is evil and you are too if you back him
Trump Supporters: Trump is #MAGA and you are a snowflake
Moderates: I can see some pros and some cons of the administration (while all the liberals and conservatives yell for them to pick a side)
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
beachbumbabs
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July 25th, 2018 at 12:52:59 PM permalink
Quote: VCUSkyhawk

I am very interested in politics, however the reason that I don't engage into the debates in this forum (and on other social media) as it all boils down to this.

Liberals: Trump is evil and you are too if you back him
Trump Supporters: Trump is #MAGA and you are a snowflake
Moderates: I can see some pros and some cons of the administration (while all the liberals and conservatives yell for them to pick a side)



With no intention to derail, but responding as a moderate....I don't see how we ever move past that situation unless we DO talk to each other. So I engage.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
DrawingDead
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July 25th, 2018 at 1:05:48 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

responding as a moderate

Hilarious. Meaning ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd.

You are no such thing. Nobody with an ounce of sense could possibly ever mistake you for any such thing.

For chrissakes, just go ahead and be what you are already. And it has no part of anything remotely "moderate."
Suck dope, watch TV, make up stuff, be somebody on the internet.
SOOPOO
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July 25th, 2018 at 1:13:18 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

Hilarious. Meaning ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd.

You are no such thing. Nobody with an ounce of sense could possibly ever mistake you for any such thing.

For chrissakes, just go ahead and be what you are already.



I believe that most that I would classify as liberals would classify themselves as moderates. Who you voted for in the past is not the deciding factor. It is your present day positions. EvenBob voted for Obama his first term; I doubt anyone would call EvenBob a moderate today.....

My reading of BBB's political posts of the Trump years would make her a liberal. Of course not on every issue, but mostly. Let's hear her response!
petroglyph
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July 25th, 2018 at 1:22:06 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

With no intention to derail, but responding as a moderate....I don't see how we ever move past that situation unless we DO talk to each other. So I engage.

How is it possible to have any political discourse after you have invoked Godwins law?
RonC
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July 25th, 2018 at 1:44:09 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

I wish people cared half as much about their favorite presidents lies as they do about some shill on a forum.



So...let me get this straight...you only started this thread to initiate yet another attack on President Trump? Respectfully, I would like to point out to you that there are already threads here where those attacks are relevant. I think the issue of lies is discussed in those...

Does everyone who posts in a thread about shills have the same favorite President? Maybe that is your point....

I think everyone on the boards knows those threads exist and they are free to visit and engage...or not.

Opinion again...but this thread is not necessary.
VCUSkyhawk
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July 25th, 2018 at 1:46:22 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

With no intention to derail, but responding as a moderate....I don't see how we ever move past that situation unless we DO talk to each other. So I engage.



Thanks for moving this because I wanted to reply without continuing the derail.

I read you reply and begin to think, but do you actually believe you are changing hearts and minds...even a little? Then I read the replies. You are regarded as a liberal, regardless of how you see yourself. People have a tendency to disregard what you are saying once they peg you as a certain viewpoint....even if you dont check all the boxes of that viewpoint.

I consider myself a libertarian which generally means I am assailed by both sides. In the end, I believe that most peoples dogma is so strong they will not be convinced.
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
VCUSkyhawk
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July 25th, 2018 at 1:47:45 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

So...let me get this straight...you only started this thread to initiate yet another attack on President Trump?



This thread was spun off by a mod to prevent a derail, it wasnt Billy.
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
beachbumbabs
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July 25th, 2018 at 1:58:05 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

Hilarious. Meaning ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd.

You are no such thing. Nobody with an ounce of sense could possibly ever mistake you for any such thing.

For chrissakes, just go ahead and be what you are already. And it has no part of anything remotely "moderate."



When I look at the actual issues, in the areas of governance and governmental role in running this country, I am right of center. Defense, government role in domestic and foreign affairs, regulatory role in business, finance, trade, environment, etc.

However, these jobs should be done by federal employees, NOT contractors. Privatization of jobs the government rightly performs should be done by those whose first loyalty is to the government, not themselves, not some corporate entity. It's a lie to claim that is cheaper, an accounting trick, and we are being ripped off as a country by that practice. Fiscal accountability and prudence is a priority that is increasingly ignored.

When I look at social issues, I am definitely left of center, because the Left position is generally to allow personal choice. I don't think the government has ANY business dictating who people can marry, making women or doctors criminals over abortion, whether this nation should be run by "Christian" values rather than secular ones, all the rest.

I do not think we should be a socialist government. No handouts, free college, entitlements. Job training assistance, Pell Grants, Workfare, Head Start, these are programs that require effort from the participants and are a net win for the country.

Trump is personally repugnant, completely amoral, and belongs to no previous place on the Liberal-to-Conservative scale. Many Conservatives and Moderates are backing away from him, acknowledging he is essentially not aligned with them. The main difference between Trump and ANY US ideology is that regardless of the process or philosophy by which a faction wanted to accomplish something, there was a definite overarching goal of doing what was best for us as A NATION.

Trump has proven many times that he is doing things only for Trump. He takes advantage of the ingrained idea that someone who is elected President runs because they believe they can improve the lives of the people they are asking to lead.

Just look at all the shiny things he throws out to distract attention and airtime whenever something threatening comes out. He's lately trying to suck up all the oxygen in people's attention spans with stupid chatter about porn stars while he sells us and the EU out to Russia to try and save his own skin. And the media goes there wall-to-wall every time. But there have been dozens of stories choked off while he jerks around the NFL, or pick your favorite non-story that's designed to infuriate and divide.

If liberals are the most anti-Trump people out there, then perhaps you can call me a Liberal, cuz that part is true. But it's a corruption of Liberal to include me with the Left, at least by any traditional.understanding of the words.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
VCUSkyhawk
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:03:51 PM permalink
Oh, one more point as to why I generally dont engage in political discussions on forums or FB is because many times you comment on some topic are are assailed by multiple people. I generally enjoy political discussions in a one on one conversation, not an arena environment.
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
beachbumbabs
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:05:55 PM permalink
Quote: VCUSkyhawk

Oh, one more point as to why I generally dont engage in political discussions on forums or FB is because many times you comment on some topic are are assailed by multiple people. I generally enjoy political discussions in a one on one conversation, not an arena environment.



Good point.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:09:03 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

So...let me get this straight...you only started this thread to initiate yet another attack on President Trump? Respectfully, I would like to point out to you that there are already threads here where those attacks are relevant. I think the issue of lies is discussed in those...

Does everyone who posts in a thread about shills have the same favorite President? Maybe that is your point....

I think everyone on the boards knows those threads exist and they are free to visit and engage...or not.

Opinion again...but this thread is not necessary.



If there had been a way to tack this onto existing political threads, I would have. This is a split from Nathan's corner, that started with billryans reference to politics. He did not actually start this thread, however it was a derail to that one, so here we are.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Mission146
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:09:42 PM permalink
Quote: VCUSkyhawk



I consider myself a libertarian which generally means I am assailed by both sides. In the end, I believe that most peoples dogma is so strong they will not be convinced.



Good to have you aboard!

I skew a little more left on Economic issues than your average Libertarian, but that’s because I favor liberal economic measures that I think are a good overall investment...which is about half of them, in my view.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:12:20 PM permalink
BBB, just read your long post.

You’re closer to being a true Libertarian than I am! I think that’s probably what you are. I think lots of people are Libertarians and don’t know it.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
RonC
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:12:39 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

If there had been a way to tack this onto existing political threads, I would have. This is a split from Nathan's corner, that started with billryans reference to politics. He did not actually start this thread, however it was a derail to that one, so here we are.



You could have just added this to any existing thread on the same topic; it is already taking the normal turns.

I stand by my opinion of the need for the thread...I do apologize to the "OP"...it came from a thread I don't read, so I had no idea.
rxwine
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:16:12 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

If there had been a way to tack this onto existing political threads, I would have. This is a split from Nathan's corner, that started with billryans reference to politics. He did not actually start this thread, however it was a derail to that one, so here we are.




I thought Nathan was the 2nd king of random. Why split anything off?


But really I don't much care, just pointing out something.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
beachbumbabs
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:17:28 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

You could have just added this to any existing thread on the same topic; it is already taking the normal turns.

I stand by my opinion of the need for the thread...I do apologize to the "OP"...it came from a thread I don't read, so I had no idea.



I CAN'T ADD IT. MY Reply, yes, but the forum software doesn't work that way. I can't (nobody can) attach 3rd party posts to a different thread. I moved them to get it out of the completely unrelated but complicated thread, rather than deleting them.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
VCUSkyhawk
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:18:54 PM permalink
Interestingly I tend to be conservative across the board in my PERSONAL beliefs, but left on how I believe the government should operate.

For example, I personally oppose gay marrying. That said, I do not feel that the government has any business telling consenting adults who may or may they can enter a lifelong union with. I am personally against the use of drugs, but again the government shouldn't be telling us what we can do with our bodys and I believe that all drugs should be legalized. I realize that is a pretty radical view, but it is the hardcore libertarian in me.
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
VCUSkyhawk
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:21:34 PM permalink
In defense of BBB, even if she could add this to the existing Trump thread, I think this is different enough to have its own thread. I wont engage in the other thread. I think having discussion of how people talk about politics and its effectiveness if different enough to warrant a different thread. Just my opinion.
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
beachbumbabs
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:26:09 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

BBB, just read your long post.

You’re closer to being a true Libertarian than I am! I think that’s probably what you are. I think lots of people are Libertarians and don’t know it.



I guess if everyone must wear a label these days, that'd be the closest. I don't know what current definitions even are, between progressive/libertwrian/liberal/conservative/trumper/independent. But the Republican party I still am registered in is certainly dead.

My personal stance on.many of these things (responding.to VCS as well) is they are just that, personal. It doesn't matter how I would decide about any of them: what matters is that people are free to decide for themselves. There should be laws about theft, rape, murder, public nuisance, and the rest that we have. But that's where it ends, where your actions cause physical or fiscal damage to another.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
rxwine
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:41:31 PM permalink
I'm a libertarian in regards to whether anyone engages in political threads. As I note for anyone who will listen: One of us is right, and one of us is you.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
gamerfreak
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July 25th, 2018 at 2:44:05 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

Hilarious. Meaning ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd.

You are no such thing. Nobody with an ounce of sense could possibly ever mistake you for any such thing.

For chrissakes, just go ahead and be what you are already. And it has no part of anything remotely "moderate."


This is the height of garbage identity politics.
RonC
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July 25th, 2018 at 3:22:33 PM permalink
Quote: VCUSkyhawk

In defense of BBB, even if she could add this to the existing Trump thread, I think this is different enough to have its own thread. I wont engage in the other thread. I think having discussion of how people talk about politics and its effectiveness if different enough to warrant a different thread. Just my opinion.



I'll bet you $1 US that it devolves in the same way all political threads seem to go these days.

...and I will gladly pay you if it doesn't!

Give it 30 days or less...
RS
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July 25th, 2018 at 3:32:01 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

I'll bet you $1 US that it devolves in the same way all political threads seem to go these days.

...and I will gladly pay you if it doesn't!

Give it 30 days or less...


30 days or fewer, ya damn Nazi loving bigot racist antitransexual misogornyzyst cisgendered white patriarchial male***

That's a joke since that's how political threads end up. plz don't suspend me :( I don't think those things of RonC.
Rigondeaux
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July 25th, 2018 at 3:45:15 PM permalink
Babs is not a moderate in terms of hating Trump.

Politically she is objectively a right leaning moderate. As she mentioned, for example, she thinks we should keep funneling half our public resources to evil arms dealers for no reason. That's not a lefty position.

Quote: VCUSkyhawk



I consider myself a libertarian which generally means I am assailed by both sides. In the end, I believe that most peoples dogma is so strong they will not be convinced.



This is what it boils down too. Most people don't even know what conservative, liberal, right and left mean anyway.

The trick of a dogma is that it says "believing this dogma will make you morally and intellectually superior to other people. " once you buy in, your self esteem is too invested to ever deviate.

This is why cult members can be persuaded to let the leader bang their 13 year old daughter, then kill themselves. The alternative is admitting that, rather than becoming superior, they've been fools.

If they were strong enough to do that, they'd never have joined the cult.
VCUSkyhawk
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July 25th, 2018 at 3:47:53 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

I'll bet you $1 US that it devolves in the same way all political threads seem to go these days.

...and I will gladly pay you if it doesn't!

Give it 30 days or less...



No bet ;)

I will enjoy this discussion while it remains civil and bail when it turns nasty. If everybody did the same the current political thread wouldn't be what it currently is.
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
TigerWu
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July 25th, 2018 at 4:04:12 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux


This is why cult members can be persuaded to let the leader bang their 13 year old daughter, then kill themselves. The alternative is admitting that, rather than becoming superior, they've been fools.



Here's a little trick I've learned... You never have to ADMIT you're a fool.

Just walk away from the situation and never speak of it again.

Easy.

I've been the fool many times. When I realize it, I don't dig in deeper, I just say, "Eh, whatever... I'M the idiot here, I guess," and move on.

The best part? Nobody gives a s***. Everyone else moves on with their lives because YOU didn't make a big deal about it.
Rigondeaux
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July 25th, 2018 at 4:31:21 PM permalink
"You can't keep blaming yourself. Just blame yourself once and move on."

--Homer Simpson.

Unfortunately this is a difficult skill to cultivate for many.
AZDuffman
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July 25th, 2018 at 4:46:51 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I believe that most that I would classify as liberals would classify themselves as moderates.



This is because liberals usually refuse to classify themselves as "liberal." Until this election cycle, when have you heard Democrat candidates vie to be "liberal?" Conservatives are not afraid of saying who they are, liberals are afraid to do so.


Quote: beachbumbabs

When I look at the actual issues, in the areas of governance and governmental role in running this country, I am right of center. Defense, government role in domestic and foreign affairs, regulatory role in business, finance, trade, environment, etc.

However, these jobs should be done by federal employees, NOT contractors. Privatization of jobs the government rightly performs should be done by those whose first loyalty is to the government, not themselves, not some corporate entity. It's a lie to claim that is cheaper, an accounting trick, and we are being ripped off as a country by that practice. Fiscal accountability and prudence is a priority that is increasingly ignored.



This is a pure liberal position and an example of what I am talking about. Loyalty to the government? That is pure liberal. Constitution? People? Maybe. Not the "government."
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Mission146
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July 25th, 2018 at 4:50:36 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

This is because liberals usually refuse to classify themselves as "liberal." Until this election cycle, when have you heard Democrat candidates vie to be "liberal?" Conservatives are not afraid of saying who they are, liberals are afraid to do so.



Um...no. If nothing else, I only stopped classifying myself as Liberal because I don't want to be lumped in with the people who do. More importantly, I don't think I'm a true liberal anymore. I'm a pretty big states rights guy, for one thing.

Quote:

This is a pure liberal position and an example of what I am talking about. Loyalty to the government? That is pure liberal. Constitution? People? Maybe. Not the "government."



Transitive property?

If the Government is supposed to be loyal to the Constitution and people are avowing to be loyal to the Government, by default, aren't they saying they're loyal to the Constitution?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
gamerfreak
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July 25th, 2018 at 4:56:57 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Um...no. If nothing else, I only stopped classifying myself as Liberal because I don't want to be lumped in with the people who do. More importantly, I don't think I'm a true liberal anymore. I'm a pretty big states rights guy, for one thing.


The term you are looking for is classical liberalism, the political ideology our country was founded on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
AZDuffman
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July 25th, 2018 at 4:59:00 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Um...no. If nothing else, I only stopped classifying myself as Liberal because I don't want to be lumped in with the people who do. More importantly, I don't think I'm a true liberal anymore. I'm a pretty big states rights guy, for one thing.



My perfect example of liberals not wanting to call themselves liberal. IIRC you have stated that you want free college for all for one item. Also some time back that you preferred the same laws for all states. Now, if you shifted your view on the states rights thing then welcome to the club. Laws are better made as local as possible.

Quote:

Transitive property?

If the Government is supposed to be loyal to the Constitution and people are avowing to be loyal to the Government, by default, aren't they saying they're loyal to the Constitution?



No. Military do not take an oath to the government, they take it to the Constitution. Leaders change. Governments change. The Constitution remains. To take an oath to or want to defend "the government" is to defend bureaucracy. To defend the Constitution is to defend ideals.

I love my country and Constitution. I do not love my government, even with Trump in charge government is a monster.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
RS
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:00:30 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Um...no. If nothing else, I only stopped classifying myself as Liberal because I don't want to be lumped in with the people who do. More importantly, I don't think I'm a true liberal anymore. I'm a pretty big states rights guy, for one thing.

Quote:

This is a pure liberal position and an example of what I am talking about. Loyalty to the government? That is pure liberal. Constitution? People? Maybe. Not the "government."



Transitive property?

If the Government is supposed to be loyal to the Constitution and people are avowing to be loyal to the Government, by default, aren't they saying they're loyal to the Constitution?


Not necessarily. It’s sort of like feminism, in a way. They say they support equality and all that, but many (not all) feminists treat it like “women are superior, not equal”.

I work in a casino, pit bosses work in a casino, but we don’t both have the same goal.
AZDuffman
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:09:06 PM permalink
Quote: RS


Not necessarily. It’s sort of like feminism, in a way. They say they support equality and all that, but many (not all) feminists treat it like “women are superior, not equal”.



Core Feminist Beliefs (choose one)

A. Feminists believe in equality, until the check comes.
B. Feminists only want equality "for the fun stuff." How many were on "Dirty Jobs?"
C. It is good to be Pro-Choice, unless you choose life
D. All of the above.
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Rigondeaux
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:11:55 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

The term you are looking for is classical liberalism, the political ideology our country was founded on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism



Its cool to know what these terms mean.

On the political compass, in the broad sense, a liberal is someone who thinks changes should be actively promoted. A conservative wants to keep things how they are and/or allow changes to occur more organically.

So something like the patriot act, to pick one example, is not conservative at all.

Of course, if you listen to hate radio all day so that you can project your anger and frustration on other people, these terms just take on whatever meanings suit your emotional needs. You can invent the reasons later.
AZDuffman
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:21:37 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux



On the political compass, in the broad sense, a liberal is someone who thinks changes should be actively promoted. A conservative wants to keep things how they are and/or allow changes to occur more organically.



No, incorrect. By this definition liberals want Roe v Wade repealed and Conservatives want it to remain.

A better definition is:

Liberals want equality of outcome. They get upset in income or any other kind of inequality and believe in robust government action to "fix" the inequalities.

Conservatives want equality of opportunity. They do not get upset if some people do better than others as they see it as a result of some people working harder than others, or just being naturally better at things. They do not want the government deciding who should get what.
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gamerfreak
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RigondeauxMission146
July 25th, 2018 at 5:26:55 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

Its cool to know what these terms mean.

On the political compass, in the broad sense, a liberal is someone who thinks changes should be actively promoted. A conservative wants to keep things how they are and/or allow changes to occur more organically.

So something like the patriot act, to pick one example, is not conservative at all.

Of course, if you listen to hate radio all day so that you can project your anger and frustration on other people, these terms just take on whatever meanings suit your emotional needs. You can invent the reasons later.


Yea, you can get into hours of a Wikipedia rabbit hole reading about these core political philosophies.

The terms Liberal and Conservative have been completely bastardized by modern day identity politics. The Republican/Democratic parties have devolved into a bizarre mishmash of ideologies.
Rigondeaux
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:34:06 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

No, incorrect. By this definition liberals want Roe v Wade repealed and Conservatives want it to remain.

A better definition is:

Liberals want equality of outcome. They get upset in income or any other kind of inequality and believe in robust government action to "fix" the inequalities.

Conservatives want equality of opportunity. They do not get upset if some people do better than others as they see it as a result of some people working harder than others, or just being naturally better at things. They do not want the government deciding who should get what.



You're the taxation is theft guy, right?
AZDuffman
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RogerKintMission146
July 25th, 2018 at 5:35:47 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

You're the taxation is theft guy, right?



Yup. It is. Why?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
RS
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:36:52 PM permalink
I haven’t done the appropriate research (yet), but those of you in the know, which of the groups do you think I mostly fit into? And wtf is a libertarian? I think I’m one of those. But whenever I google it, or “Wikipedia” it as you youngins say, it gives some nonsensical definition, like “a libertarian is someone with libertarian beliefs” OR “something about Marxism, feudalism, anti non comfortalizariaism, and other words”.

All I want is minimal government (NOT no government).
Mission146
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:39:29 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

The term you are looking for is classical liberalism, the political ideology our country was founded on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism



I know the combination of those two words. My economic positions aren't even close to that.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
RogerKint
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:41:30 PM permalink
Quote: RS

I haven’t done the appropriate research (yet), but those of you in the know, which of the groups do you think I mostly fit into? And wtf is a libertarian? I think I’m one of those. But whenever I google it, or “Wikipedia” it as you youngins say, it gives some nonsensical definition, like “a libertarian is someone with libertarian beliefs” OR “something about Marxism, feudalism, anti non comfortalizariaism, and other words”.

All I want is minimal government (NOT no government).




Then you're a minarchist.
100% risk of ruin
Mission146
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:44:27 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

My perfect example of liberals not wanting to call themselves liberal. IIRC you have stated that you want free college for all for one item. Also some time back that you preferred the same laws for all states. Now, if you shifted your view on the states rights thing then welcome to the club. Laws are better made as local as possible.



My opinion is that there should be a free state University for students who satisfy certain academic criteria, to include H.S. Cumulative GPA and standardized testing scores.

That remains my position as to what should be. The main difference is that I would leave it up to each state to do that, not Federal. I have decided that public education is necessary, in my opinion, but the Feds shouldn't have anything to do with it other than set very minimum criteria...but leave the states in control of how that criteria is met.

Quote:

No. Military do not take an oath to the government, they take it to the Constitution. Leaders change. Governments change. The Constitution remains. To take an oath to or want to defend "the government" is to defend bureaucracy. To defend the Constitution is to defend ideals.

I love my country and Constitution. I do not love my government, even with Trump in charge government is a monster.



I love the country, but not the Constitution, because the #ConstitutionSucks.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AZDuffman
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:47:25 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

My opinion is that there should be a free state University for students who satisfy certain academic criteria, to include H.S. Cumulative GPA and standardized testing scores.

That remains my position as to what should be. The main difference is that I would leave it up to each state to do that, not Federal. I have decided that public education is necessary, in my opinion, but the Feds shouldn't have anything to do with it other than set very minimum criteria...but leave the states in control of how that criteria is met.



So you are liberal at the state level? I am all for the Feds being out of education, Federal involvement is unconstitutional. But as I have said before, we give 13 free years including K, that is enough. Too much money is already wasted on kids in college that do not belong there.



Quote:

I love the country, but not the Constitution, because the #ConstitutionSucks.



And why does the Constitution suck?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Rigondeaux
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Mission146petroglyph
July 25th, 2018 at 5:48:22 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Yea, you can get into hours of a Wikipedia rabbit hole reading about these core political philosophies.

The terms Liberal and Conservative have been completely bastardized by modern day identity politics. The Republican/Democratic parties have devolved into a bizarre mishmash of ideologies.



On the same page. I do think Republicans figured it out first but Dems are almost caught up.

You appeal to identity and emotion. Tell people all their problems are someone else's fault. Whatever group you belong to is good. The other group is bad. (Divide.)

With your voters wrapped up in all that stuff, you are now free to totally disregard their interests and expand wealth and power for you and your cronies. (Conquer)

The best part is, you can point to the other side and how rotten they are and be telling the truth.

None of this is really much of a political philosophy. It's more like a series of tactics and propaganda measures to gain power.

I mean, imagine being a "on the left" and thinking it was cool for Hillary to accept $200 million from big businesses she is supposed to regulate and believing she would represent your interests.

Imagine being on the right and thinking Hillary is a leftist.
VCUSkyhawk
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RogerKintMission146
July 25th, 2018 at 5:53:17 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


I love the country, but not the Constitution, because the #ConstitutionSucks.



You are now my mortal enemy.
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
AZDuffman
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:54:46 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux



You appeal to identity and emotion. Tell people all their problems are someone else's fault. Whatever group you belong to is good. The other group is bad. (Divide.)



That is the Democrat playbook to a T. All the fault of "the rich" and white people. Minorities good, white folks bad. (see various ethnic "pride" in wikipedia if you doubt that one!)

BTW: Hillary is a leftist. Corporate money has nothing to do with it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Mission146
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:54:54 PM permalink
Quote: RS

I haven’t done the appropriate research (yet), but those of you in the know, which of the groups do you think I mostly fit into? And wtf is a libertarian? I think I’m one of those. But whenever I google it, or “Wikipedia” it as you youngins say, it gives some nonsensical definition, like “a libertarian is someone with libertarian beliefs” OR “something about Marxism, feudalism, anti non comfortalizariaism, and other words”.

All I want is minimal government (NOT no government).



isidewith.com

I like that site to give people a general idea of parties, as they are presently defined, and what candidates you most agree with for Senate, some state positions (depending on state) and what presidential candidate from 2016 you most agree with.

I think it's somewhat accurate in the context of what the words mean today.

I don't know that I've read enough of your posts to have an opinion, but you can answer as many questions as you like on isidewith. I just did it not long ago and here are a few of my stats:

Libertarian: 69%
Socialist: 63%
Democratic: 59%
Green: 58%
Women's Equality Party: 55% (Didn't know that's a thing)
Republican 43%
Constitution(Sucks) Party: 33%

I bet AZDuffman would be Constitution Party!

Here are the presumed 2020 Presidential Candidates the site thinks I most agree with:

Oprah Winfrey: 68%
Michelle Obama: 67%
Elizabeth Warren: 65%
Bernie Sanders: 61%
Rand Paul: 61%
Joe Biden: 57%
Ben Shapiro: 56%

If there was a Libertarian on there who doesn't happen to be a complete friggin' idiot like Rand Paul, then that would probably be the biggest percentage. I remember I was with Gary Johnson to high 70-something percent one time I took it and low 80% the time I took it and answered even more questions.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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July 25th, 2018 at 5:56:56 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

So you are liberal at the state level? I am all for the Feds being out of education, Federal involvement is unconstitutional. But as I have said before, we give 13 free years including K, that is enough. Too much money is already wasted on kids in college that do not belong there.



We've had that discussion.

I favor Liberal policies, even some that are economic policies. I don't favor all economically liberal policies. Liberals also tend to think the Feds should do more, and I think the Feds should do less.

Quote:

And why does the Constitution suck?



Asked and answered. Mostly because it is directly responsible for the two-party system.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
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