Caesars AC progressive snafu
He is deal a 5 card Straight flush, His initial two cards are 2 and 4 of diamonds, he asks the dealer if he folds is he still in the Progressive, dealer says yes.
Dealer tucks his cards under 3cp side bet.
Dealer reveals community cards ,the players is hi fiveing everyone,he is told he just won 25k.
The shift manager takes his info then takes him to cage to collect his check.5 minutes later he comes back screaming WTF.
They refused to pay him saying he folded his hand, so it doesn't qualify for progressive.
NO where on the table is it posted. He called DGE,of course they don't work weekends, so they said someone will contact him on Monday.
Also previously another player had folded and the floor told him you still qualify and they paid him for a Straight.
It will be interesting to see how this will be resolved.
Also the Progressive meter as of a day later hadn't been reset to the 25k range.
Seems like another problem waiting to happen.
Only fault I would have is the player even risking it and asking. Just play it out.
Quote: BozMany issues here but I hope Gaming is willing to find and interview the others at the table. Even if the dealer said he was OK, they may rule against him.
Only fault I would have is the player even risking it and asking. Just play it out.
They shouldn't be offering a side bet with a giant house edge that forces you to play the main game sub-optimally to get paid. I personally hope they make them pay, but not holding my breath.
But if they allowed verbal I could see it open a huge Pandora's box
Hopefully they pay him but a verbal is extremely hard
Also the fact that they paid the previous player on the straight.
They took a few players names and numbers for witnesses.
After all this you would think they would have put a temporary sign on the table,saying folded hands are out of the Progressive, but as of tonight nothing.
But yes, quite the snafu, indubitably.
Quote: DeucekiesDidn't the shift manager know that the player folded? If he was aware of this, and he approved the win, who at the cage is overruling him?
The shift manager came to the table and turned the key for the Progressive, so not sure who realized that he folded.
Quote: IbeatyouracesHe folded BEFORE the community cards were revealed. Therefore he DID NOT make a straight flush and does not deserve the pay off. No different than in a live poker game where if you fold pocket 4's to pocket A's and have the board read 46A4A. You don't win the bad beat jackpot either.
But in this case don't you think it should be posted somewhere on the sign or on the table, and he specifically asked the dealer for confirmation before folding.
BJ
3CP (pairs plus)
UTH
MS (some 7-card nonsense i think)
Quote: IbeatyouracesHe folded BEFORE the community cards were revealed. Therefore he DID NOT make a straight flush and does not deserve the pay off. No different than in a live poker game where if you fold pocket 4's to pocket A's and have the board read 46A4A. You don't win the bad beat jackpot either.
It's absolutely nothing like a live poker game. It is a casino table game played against the house. There is no reason whatsoever to compare the two.
Quote: sabreIt's absolutely nothing like a live poker game. It is a casino table game played against the house. There is no reason whatsoever to compare the two.
As soon as he folds, the hand is dead and should be put into the discard rack. Just because there is the 3cp bet means nothing as that's a bet based on the community cards only.
Mississippi is the only carnival game that I don't make any of the side bets, not even the 3 card bet. The main game is so volatile that those other bets will just eat up your bankroll well before you hit anything.
Quote: IbeatyouracesAs soon as he folds, the hand is dead and should be put into the discard rack. Just because there is the 3cp bet means nothing as that's a bet based on the community cards only.
But in some games, I think MS stud, when you fold your main hand they take your cards and move them up to the top of your area and wait for the side bet. Not playing the man game out should not disqualify you from the side bets. However, this is AC so they are screwed.
Quote: HunterhillYesterday at Caesars Ac a player was playing Mississippi stud.He bet the $5 progressive side bet.
He is deal a 5 card Straight flush, His initial two cards are 2 and 4 of diamonds, he asks the dealer if he folds is he still in the Progressive, dealer says yes.
Dealer tucks his cards under 3cp side bet.
Dealer reveals community cards ,the players is hi fiveing everyone,he is told he just won 25k.
The shift manager takes his info then takes him to cage to collect his check.5 minutes later he comes back screaming WTF.
They refused to pay him saying he folded his hand, so it doesn't qualify for progressive.
NO where on the table is it posted. He called DGE,of course they don't work weekends, so they said someone will contact him on Monday.
Also previously another player had folded and the floor told him you still qualify and they paid him for a Straight.
It will be interesting to see how this will be resolved.
Also the Progressive meter as of a day later hadn't been reset to the 25k range.
Seems like another problem waiting to happen.
The solution to this fiasco 100% depends on the written rule of the game regarding progressive bonus betting, but NOT on the dealer's verbal advice or the dealer's interpretation of the of the rule. It'll be a big mess if the written rule does not exist.
Quote: HunterhillBut in this case don't you think it should be posted somewhere on the sign or on the table, and he specifically asked the dealer for confirmation before folding.
I think PGD is an expert on "the house is 100% right" and only he can shed light on this.
Quote: Romes^^^^^^ This is correct. In MS stud for example, if you fold, most places I've been tuck your cards under your 3 card bet and still resolve/PAY it if that separate side bet wins. It depends if they count the progressive as a separate side bet, which my gut would be yes... but again, I don't know their official rules.
I just asked a supervisor in a casino that has this progressive, and he said it's a dead hand in his casino and would not be paid. I agree though that there should be notification signs at the tables. I put this in the same category as doubling A,8 on a D9-11 blackjack game.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI just asked a supervisor in a casino that has this progressive, and he said it's a dead hand in his casino and would not be paid. I agree though that there should be notification signs at the tables. I put this in the same category as doubling A,8 on a D9-11 blackjack game.
You are just magnifying the issue of lacking of written official rule. Is this supervisor verbal's answer consider an official rule at his casino? What if tomorrow another supervisor gives you a completely opposite answer. And conflicting answers/interpretations among casino employees are very common.
Where is the written rule and why was it not clearly displayed? PGD please shed light on this.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'm going to say this clearly again. He did NOT have a straight flush. He folded BEFORE any cards were revealed. He's owed nothing!
I'm going to say this clearly again. There is ample precedent in table gaming for being able to decline one type of wager on a hand (ie "fold") and still have your sidebet wager live. Numerous examples have been given in this thread. An agent of the casino ("dealer") told the player this was the case. Again, you seem to be caught up by the word "fold", which in live poker surrenders any claim to the pot. This is not the case here. In the absence of a clearly stated rule to the contrary, I don't see how the casino has an ethical OR legal objection to paying the progressive.
STOP! That's twice so far... I learned in the other thread if you mention "he who shall not be named" 3 times then he appears. Let's not turn this discussion in to a back and forth rant =P.Quote: 777...Where is the written rule and why was it not clearly displayed? PGD please shed light on this.
It all comes down to whether or not the written rule is allowed to fold or not. Sucks, because this guy probably would have played the hand otherwise... So that dealer pretty much (accidentally) screwed him out of like $30k.
Quote: RomesSTOP! That's twice so far... I learned in the other thread if you mention "he who shall not be named" 3 times then he appears. Let's not turn this discussion in to a back and forth rant =P.
It all comes down to whether or not the written rule is allowed to fold or not. Sucks, because this guy probably would have played the hand otherwise... So that dealer pretty much (accidentally) screwed him out of like $30k.
Don't say what? PGD? Oops
One way thus could play out is the following.
Gaming says no jackpot. Player gets lawyer and sues. Since the dealer said it qualifies, the player wins. However money is not taken from progressive, it come from casinos pocket. Sad ending though, dealer gets fired.
Quote: GWAESad ending though, dealer gets fired.
The inevitable truth.
Dealer gets fired but player gets paid? I'm OK with that, people that make mistakes get fired everyday, as they often should. If it's a good dealer, can find another job. No jobs in AC for dealers? Great excuse to move elsewhere. I am not huge fan of Jersey but perhaps the products of an underwater basket weaver would be popular on the Boardwalk. Sold to the last of the visitors there, well, that assumes you could get the 2 or 3 permits required to be able to sell a 'basket'.Quote: mrsuit31The inevitable truth.
Quote: RomesSTOP! That's twice so far... I learned in the other thread if you mention "he who shall not be named" 3 times then he appears. Let's not turn this discussion in to a back and forth rant =P.
It all comes down to whether or not the written rule is allowed to fold or not. Sucks, because this guy probably would have played the hand otherwise... So that dealer pretty much (accidentally) screwed him out of like $30k.
I was very surprise to see that Mr. "he who shall not be named" was nowhere to be found in the "markers-another-mark" thread. Despite his conspicuously absent in the "marker" thread, Beachbumbabs & Joeshlabotnik did a wonderful job of filling his void.
I truly missed Mr. "he who shall not be named," who is very articulate in defending the house, and I just want to hear his expert response.
I can give you that... His response would be whatever was against the player. So even though the dealer/floor or shift manager told him verbally the wrong thing, if the written rule dictates the hand must be played then he did not follow all of the "proper" rules therefor doesn't deserve a penny.Quote: 777...I truly missed Mr. "he who shall not be named," who is very articulate in defending the house, and I just want to hear his expert response.
Quote: 777I was very surprise to see that Mr. "he who shall not be named" was nowhere to be found in the "markers-another-mark" thread. Despite his conspicuously absent in the "marker" thread, Beachbumbabs & Joeshlabotnik did a wonderful job of filling his void.
I truly missed Mr. "he who shall not be named," who is very articulate in defending the house, and I just want to hear his expert response.
wait.. are u saying he's banned???
what happened?
Quote: HunterhillThe rule is written in a brochure,but those brochures were not on the table.To me another important factor is that 20 minutes prior they paid another player a progressive bonus ,when he had folded his hand
The brochure is probably similar to WA state, so he's screwed. If I were him, I'd try to get some kind of crappy settlement, because I don't think his chances are too good. Dealer word alone is BS, but someone getting paid out AND dealer word at least gives him something to argue.
However, I would venture the guess the casino wants to pay the player. The progressives are player funded (minus the small seed money) so them not wanting to pay isn't about being cheap. It's not their money away, the players but most of it in there. This is good publicity, and there's no reason to piss this player off over money that isn't theirs. It's just an expensive misunderstanding.
The issue will lie in the internal controls, which will say folded hands don't qualify for progressives. If they don't follow their internal controls, it will be a major issue with the NJAC. I can also guarantee it doesn't say anything about if the dealer tells you something that is wrong, that will supersede internal controls.
Money??? If I played I'd sue if they paid him and say it's not fair to to the players whose money it was -
Quote: DeucekiesHere's a link to the rule sheet in WA. Assuming NJ uses the same rules, which they should, 3CP bonus counts after folding, but progressive does NOT count after folding.
Ouch, I figured WA would keep it active if it was folded.
What page is it on?
My local uses the same progressive pool for MS Stud, 4-card poker, and UTH. Stud is the worst for the side bet because of the percentage you fold before the river.
Quote: RSI scanned through it quickly.....didn't see anything about losing progressive bet if you fold. But I also went through it quickly.
What page is it on?
Page 10. Bullet point 7.
Quote: WizardofnothingGood will????orher players
Money??? If I played I'd sue if they paid him and say it's not fair to to the players whose money it was -
What would be the cause of action that gives them right to recovery? They would have to find a way to argue that they would have somehow won that money anyway (even as a group) which isn't provable because it is not necessarily true. In fact, I would argue that the people who contributed to the erroneously awarded progressive (other than one person who may have won it by playing at a later time, and it's impossible to know who that may be or when it may happen) were unharmed.
They made the bet, they didn't win the Progressive, part of their bets contributed to the Progressive. Maybe they'd have the right to recover that by advancing the argument they would have played again, but any, 'Damages,' would be literal pennies, in most of their cases.
I think the casino should pay the guy and take the slap on the hands from Gaming if a folded hand had been paid earlier that day. This is also why employee training is so important, you have dealers and, perhaps especially, PC staff running around like a bunch of clowns answering questions however they want to (and often not the same way) and the players are made to rely upon those answers. I'm not saying mistakes are all absolutely inexcusable, (they'll happen sometimes) but knowing whether or not a hand remains in play is an extremely fundamental thing.
Quote: Mission146What would be the cause of action that gives them right to recovery? They would have to find a way to argue that they would have somehow won that money anyway (even as a group) which isn't provable because it is not necessarily true. In fact, I would argue that the people who contributed to the erroneously awarded progressive (other than one person who may have won it by playing at a later time, and it's impossible to know who that may be or when it may happen) were unharmed.
They made the bet, they didn't win the Progressive, part of their bets contributed to the Progressive. Maybe they'd have the right to recover that by advancing the argument they would have played again, but any, 'Damages,' would be literal pennies, in most of their cases.
I think the casino should pay the guy and take the slap on the hands from Gaming if a folded hand had been paid earlier that day. This is also why employee training is so important, you have dealers and, perhaps especially, PC staff running around like a bunch of clowns answering questions however they want to (and often not the same way) and the players are made to rely upon those answers. I'm not saying mistakes are all absolutely inexcusable, (they'll happen sometimes) but knowing whether or not a hand remains in play is an extremely fundamental thing.
At a casino I used to work at. Pit boss talking about card counters. (We're in break room.) I perk up and ask questions, of course (not knowing I'm an AP). The level of ignorance or perhaps better stupidity or.....I don't even know HOW to describe it.....put me in complete awe.
Of course, she stated card counting is cheating and against the law, but they aren't prosecuted because it's bad for publicity or something along those lines.
Also that casinos are private businesses and if they kick you out (trespass you) you have to leave. (I agree.) But furthermore if they want to detain you for ANY reason whatsoever, they can. Apparently this PB thinks a private business can do that? Hmm....
Oh, and that since it's a private corporation, they do NOT have to pay you/redeem your chips or slot vouchers.
Seems like most PBs I've talked to share the same type of views (perhaps not as extreme), especially about card counters. But there have been a few that are like, "yeah so what, he's counting cards. There 50-100 more people losing twice as much as he's making right now.....I say let them do their thing as long as they aren't being a**holes".
There's quite a bit of illegal or at the very least immoral (or unethical?) activity coming from the floor/pit bosses in a casino.....and many, seriously, don't know what they are doing.
And no, I'm not naming names if you're interested.
Key word SHE. Enough said.Quote: RSQuote: Mission146What would be the cause of action that gives them right to recovery? They would have to find a way to argue that they would have somehow won that money anyway (even as a group) which isn't provable because it is not necessarily true. In fact, I would argue that the people who contributed to the erroneously awarded progressive (other than one person who may have won it by playing at a later time, and it's impossible to know who that may be or when it may happen) were unharmed.
They made the bet, they didn't win the Progressive, part of their bets contributed to the Progressive. Maybe they'd have the right to recover that by advancing the argument they would have played again, but any, 'Damages,' would be literal pennies, in most of their cases.
I think the casino should pay the guy and take the slap on the hands from Gaming if a folded hand had been paid earlier that day. This is also why employee training is so important, you have dealers and, perhaps especially, PC staff running around like a bunch of clowns answering questions however they want to (and often not the same way) and the players are made to rely upon those answers. I'm not saying mistakes are all absolutely inexcusable, (they'll happen sometimes) but knowing whether or not a hand remains in play is an extremely fundamental thing.
At a casino I used to work at. Pit boss talking about card counters. (We're in break room.) I perk up and ask questions, of course (not knowing I'm an AP). The level of ignorance or perhaps better stupidity or.....I don't even know HOW to describe it.....put me in complete awe.
Of course, she stated card counting is cheating and against the law, but they aren't prosecuted because it's bad for publicity or something along those lines.
Also that casinos are private businesses and if they kick you out (trespass you) you have to leave. (I agree.) But furthermore if they want to detain you for ANY reason whatsoever, they can. Apparently this PB thinks a private business can do that? Hmm....
Oh, and that since it's a private corporation, they do NOT have to pay you/redeem your chips or slot vouchers.
Seems like most PBs I've talked to share the same type of views (perhaps not as extreme), especially about card counters. But there have been a few that are like, "yeah so what, he's counting cards. There 50-100 more people losing twice as much as he's making right now.....I say let them do their thing as long as they aren't being a**holes".
There's quite a bit of illegal or at the very least immoral (or unethical?) activity coming from the floor/pit bosses in a casino.....and many, seriously, don't know what they are doing.
And no, I'm not naming names if you're interested.
Quote: AxelWolfKey word SHE. Enough said.Quote: RSQuote: Mission146What would be the cause of action that gives them right to recovery? They would have to find a way to argue that they would have somehow won that money anyway (even as a group) which isn't provable because it is not necessarily true. In fact, I would argue that the people who contributed to the erroneously awarded progressive (other than one person who may have won it by playing at a later time, and it's impossible to know who that may be or when it may happen) were unharmed.
They made the bet, they didn't win the Progressive, part of their bets contributed to the Progressive. Maybe they'd have the right to recover that by advancing the argument they would have played again, but any, 'Damages,' would be literal pennies, in most of their cases.
I think the casino should pay the guy and take the slap on the hands from Gaming if a folded hand had been paid earlier that day. This is also why employee training is so important, you have dealers and, perhaps especially, PC staff running around like a bunch of clowns answering questions however they want to (and often not the same way) and the players are made to rely upon those answers. I'm not saying mistakes are all absolutely inexcusable, (they'll happen sometimes) but knowing whether or not a hand remains in play is an extremely fundamental thing.
At a casino I used to work at. Pit boss talking about card counters. (We're in break room.) I perk up and ask questions, of course (not knowing I'm an AP). The level of ignorance or perhaps better stupidity or.....I don't even know HOW to describe it.....put me in complete awe.
Of course, she stated card counting is cheating and against the law, but they aren't prosecuted because it's bad for publicity or something along those lines.
Also that casinos are private businesses and if they kick you out (trespass you) you have to leave. (I agree.) But furthermore if they want to detain you for ANY reason whatsoever, they can. Apparently this PB thinks a private business can do that? Hmm....
Oh, and that since it's a private corporation, they do NOT have to pay you/redeem your chips or slot vouchers.
Seems like most PBs I've talked to share the same type of views (perhaps not as extreme), especially about card counters. But there have been a few that are like, "yeah so what, he's counting cards. There 50-100 more people losing twice as much as he's making right now.....I say let them do their thing as long as they aren't being a**holes".
There's quite a bit of illegal or at the very least immoral (or unethical?) activity coming from the floor/pit bosses in a casino.....and many, seriously, don't know what they are doing.
And no, I'm not naming names if you're interested.
Oh, boo, hiss. There are at LEAST as many bad or ignorant male floors as females.
Quote: AxelWolfKey word SHE. Enough said.
How embarrassing for you.
I didn't say she was bad or ignorant.Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: AxelWolfKey word SHE. Enough said.Quote: RSQuote: Mission146What would be the cause of action that gives them right to recovery? They would have to find a way to argue that they would have somehow won that money anyway (even as a group) which isn't provable because it is not necessarily true. In fact, I would argue that the people who contributed to the erroneously awarded progressive (other than one person who may have won it by playing at a later time, and it's impossible to know who that may be or when it may happen) were unharmed.
They made the bet, they didn't win the Progressive, part of their bets contributed to the Progressive. Maybe they'd have the right to recover that by advancing the argument they would have played again, but any, 'Damages,' would be literal pennies, in most of their cases.
I think the casino should pay the guy and take the slap on the hands from Gaming if a folded hand had been paid earlier that day. This is also why employee training is so important, you have dealers and, perhaps especially, PC staff running around like a bunch of clowns answering questions however they want to (and often not the same way) and the players are made to rely upon those answers. I'm not saying mistakes are all absolutely inexcusable, (they'll happen sometimes) but knowing whether or not a hand remains in play is an extremely fundamental thing.
At a casino I used to work at. Pit boss talking about card counters. (We're in break room.) I perk up and ask questions, of course (not knowing I'm an AP). The level of ignorance or perhaps better stupidity or.....I don't even know HOW to describe it.....put me in complete awe.
Of course, she stated card counting is cheating and against the law, but they aren't prosecuted because it's bad for publicity or something along those lines.
Also that casinos are private businesses and if they kick you out (trespass you) you have to leave. (I agree.) But furthermore if they want to detain you for ANY reason whatsoever, they can. Apparently this PB thinks a private business can do that? Hmm....
Oh, and that since it's a private corporation, they do NOT have to pay you/redeem your chips or slot vouchers.
Seems like most PBs I've talked to share the same type of views (perhaps not as extreme), especially about card counters. But there have been a few that are like, "yeah so what, he's counting cards. There 50-100 more people losing twice as much as he's making right now.....I say let them do their thing as long as they aren't being a**holes".
There's quite a bit of illegal or at the very least immoral (or unethical?) activity coming from the floor/pit bosses in a casino.....and many, seriously, don't know what they are doing.
And no, I'm not naming names if you're interested.
Oh, boo, hiss. There are at LEAST as many bad or ignorant male floors as females.
Quote: AxelWolfI didn't say she was bad or ignorant.
If you didn't imply it, why even bother writing that comment?
