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odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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September 10th, 2016 at 3:34:47 AM permalink
You know, when it comes to con games, the victim is called a "Mark". The irony of that just hit me.

It seems that it is the Wynn now that has gotten into the news over one of its Marks. Yes, it is through the Casino Credit system, which involves allowing gamblers to take out markers, that has snared one William "Ted" Forrest, a multi-bracelet pro poker player. If you have been following my recent blog posts and the Clinton Portis thread, you know that I consider this a Predatory Lending practice. See links, and I invite you to check out my blog if you haven't.

From reading the Las Vegas Sun article, it looks like it is currently in maximum threat phase from the Casino/State legal team: Forrest is being told he faces felony charges and prison. We know the state of Nevada will back this charge up. Forrest has lawyered up, but test cases have already failed as the article mentions, and Forrest is not going to do any better and is going to be on the hook for a long time. If other cases tell us anything, he will be unable to discharge the debt in bankruptcy proceedings, and have to agree to some sort of payment plan, at which point the jail-time/felony charge threat will ease, assuming he continues to pay.

So if you haven't kept up on this, you might be asking why the Wynn credit system allowed somebody who was getting into dire straits to write $215k in 'bad checks'. I'll repeat myself on this. The truth of the matter is that the casino invariably has come across someone with a lot of money and a gambling problem. The process of extracting that money begins; in the process I can guarantee you many more thousands in bounced checks that were later paid off preceded this final unpayable amount, and that essentially what has happened is that the casino has simply "gotten all his money now" as it might be put on the street. All the money of a poker player who has earned millions in his career. Repeating myself, now the matter is about getting even more. You have to understand that to understand why it is so predatory, put yourself in the shoes of the casino. Typically he will beg, lie, cheat, borrow and steal to get more money to gamble with. You will get that too. This Mark will have future income. You will get that too. You wind up owning this guy, you have total power over him, and the Attorney General of the state is on your legal team.

wikipedia photo



https://lasvegassun.com/news/2016/sep/09/poker-pro-faces-2-felonies-over-215k-in-casino-deb/

http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/25009-clinton-portis/
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
100xOdds
100xOdds
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September 10th, 2016 at 4:03:44 AM permalink
"he will be unable to discharge the debt in bankruptcy proceedings, and have to agree to some sort of payment plan"

What?!
I thought you can discharge any debt thru bankruptcy except federal student loans and IRS?

is this a Nevada thing?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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September 10th, 2016 at 4:46:08 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

"he will be unable to discharge the debt in bankruptcy proceedings, and have to agree to some sort of payment plan"

What?!
I thought you can discharge any debt thru bankruptcy except federal student loans and IRS?

is this a Nevada thing?



you can't discharge any bad checks you wrote. The Casino Credit system relies on this. It is the same in all states allowing a marker system as far as I know.

I suspect one of the things that hooks the Mark is that he starts to realize these markers apparently are "just loans". For the Mark, along the 'way down', the loans are easy to get, no fees, no interest, a lot of forgiveness as long as a bad check gets paid off in a reasonable period that probably seems like a grace period. But such a deluded Mark is not realizing these easy loans are hiding some ugly enforcers.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
RonC
RonC
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September 10th, 2016 at 4:56:59 AM permalink
Why call something "credit" when it it isn't credit at all?
KingoftheEye
KingoftheEye
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September 10th, 2016 at 12:18:34 PM permalink
In many jurisdictions, a casino line of credit is more accurately called a check cashing line or check cashing limit or something similar. You must write a check to the casino for the full amount they gave you which will be banked in on a date that is made clear to the check cashing guest. If you write a check knowing you don't have funds in the account, that is a crime. Doesn't matter if it is to a casino, or to a mechanic that just fixed your car.

I don't see how anyone can find the casino at fault here. He was given the money, and he refused to pay it back. It's called personal responsibility. If he has a gambling problem, I sincerely hope he uses this as a wake-up call and seeks help.

Look, after dealing with casino credit people from the casino side, for a case like this, there was probably some serious issue that caused Wynn to go after him. If this were simply a matter of Ted borrowing $215K and losing it at Wynn, but promising to pay it back, this probably wouldn't be a police issue.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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September 10th, 2016 at 12:54:20 PM permalink
Quote: KingoftheEye

In many jurisdictions, a casino line of credit is more accurately called a check cashing line or check cashing limit or something similar. You must write a check to the casino for the full amount they gave you which will be banked in on a date that is made clear to the check cashing guest. If you write a check knowing you don't have funds in the account, that is a crime. Doesn't matter if it is to a casino, or to a mechanic that just fixed your car.

I don't see how anyone can find the casino at fault here. He was given the money, and he refused to pay it back. It's called personal responsibility. If he has a gambling problem, I sincerely hope he uses this as a wake-up call and seeks help.

Exactly right. It's "credit" because, despite the mechanics and label of "check cashing privileges," the casino doesn't actually draw funds from your linked bank account at the time you sign the marker. The amount they front you is an interest-free loan until it's paid back, and they expect you to do that in a timely fashion. I've been lucky enough to usually win (or break even) on markers so I can just buy them back later that weekend, but the last time I drew a marker at an MGM property I busted out. And then I left town figuring the marker would just be drawn against my bank account as any other check would (and it had the funds, so I wasn't worried about passing a bad check). A month later I got a letter asking for payment, which I mailed in. So I was (and still am) confused about the mechanics on that part -- and why they didn't just draw funds from my bank account. But I have no intention of ever gambling beyond my means so I'm not concerned about passing a bad check anyway. For me, markers are just a way to not have to carry around a bunch of cash.

For what it's worth, there is nothing more frustrating than taking out a marker at a dice table, having the boxperson lock up the lammer, and then proceeding to lose the amount before the floor supervisor comes around with the clipboard for your signature. *sigh*
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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September 10th, 2016 at 12:55:01 PM permalink
Quote: KingoftheEye

In many jurisdictions, a casino line of credit is more accurately called a check cashing line or check cashing limit or something similar. You must write a check to the casino for the full amount they gave you which will be banked in on a date that is made clear to the check cashing guest. If you write a check knowing you don't have funds in the account, that is a crime. Doesn't matter if it is to a casino, or to a mechanic that just fixed your car.


I think what you point out stops most of us from fully sympathizing with what I will still call "the Mark". It is absolutely true that there is a very large element of personal responsibility that Forrest needs to accept for his current troubles.

Quote:

I don't see how anyone can find the casino at fault here.


Now we separate with our opinions.

Quote:

He was given the money, and he refused to pay it back.


Without question the casino and the prosecution will carefully maintain it is as simple as that, and case law will back them up.

Quote:

It's called personal responsibility. If he has a gambling problem, I sincerely hope he uses this as a wake-up call and seeks help.

Look, after dealing with casino credit people from the casino side,


I thought so.

Quote:

... for a case like this, there was probably some serious issue that caused Wynn to go after him. If this were simply a matter of Ted borrowing $215K and losing it at Wynn, but promising to pay it back, this probably wouldn't be a police issue.



"A matter of Ted borrowing" ... I think you are letting it leak that "from the casino side" as long as things are hunky dory, Forrest indeed might have been encouraged to think it was just a loan. Not a bad check writing situation.

I do not have the facts, I am speculating, but I submit to you that this is another case that calls into question whether or not we can find "the casino at fault" here. Ask yourself if there is such a thing as predatory lending. I believe there is and I have come to believe firmly that these eye-popping cases where just about anybody has to not only ask "isn't that a lot of money to borrow" but also ask "why would any lender loan so much to anyone not knowing if they would repay it", that it is indeed predatory. Note the article speaks about the casino's involvement in opening up a convenient-for-them checking account with $100. Something was afoot.

Look, I first got interested in this from knowing someone who got into deep debt with illegal gambling and wound up being killed execution style. One of the big questions for me at the time was indeed this business of "why would they continue to loan him the money". After puzzling over it for years, I finally realized it actually makes sense to do so in a perverse way. I won't repeat all that here again. But I am going to be calling it like I see it.
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Sep 10, 2016
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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September 10th, 2016 at 1:00:10 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I do not have the facts, I am speculating, but I submit to you that this case calls into question whether or not we can find "the casino at fault" here. Ask yourself if there is such a thing as predatory lending. I have come to believe firmly that these eye-popping cases where just about anybody has to not only ask "isn't that a lot of money to borrow" but also ask "why would any lender loan so much to anyone not knowing if they would repay it", that it is indeed predatory.

Almost by definition, predatory lending is lending funds to someone you don't believe has the means to pay it back. Most casino check cashing policies require markers to be drawn against a linked checking account. I'll admit that I have no experience with 6-figure gambling budgets, nor do I ever expect to, but is the policy not the same at that level? If I sign a contract that says I'll withdraw money on credit from a casino and I promise that I have the funds to pay it back in a linked checking account, and I lie about that last part, how do you view that as the casino's fault?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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September 10th, 2016 at 1:11:04 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Exactly right. It's "credit" because, despite the mechanics and label of "check cashing privileges," the casino doesn't actually draw funds from your linked bank account at the time you sign the marker. The amount they front you is an interest-free loan until it's paid back, and they expect you to do that in a timely fashion. ... I have no intention of ever gambling beyond my means so I'm not concerned about passing a bad check anyway. For me, markers are just a way to not have to carry around a bunch of cash.


I have taken out markers and I agree that probably for most of us here who have done so, what you write here is all we ever are going to expect and experience.

Alas, for, say, a very successful professional athlete getting himself noticed for the wrong reasons, he might instead need to be up to date on what this special type of predatory lending is all about. And, just to say it again, if he was a person with a better handle on personal responsibility, then maybe he could stay out of trouble just on the basis of that ... and not be faced with the disapproval of you and me for what he gets into. Yes, me too, but I have chosen also to blog etc. about the other side of the story.

Quote:

For what it's worth, there is nothing more frustrating than taking out a marker at a dice table, having the boxperson lock up the lammer, and then proceeding to lose the amount before the floor supervisor comes around with the clipboard for your signature. *sigh*


LOL
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
onenickelmiracle
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September 10th, 2016 at 1:15:43 PM permalink
There should be personal responsibility, yes, but as a county, we do not expect the same thing from lenders. If you loan money to someone, it should be your responsibility to make sure you find them credit worthy and collection is at your expense. As the bankruptcy laws have been mentioned, these laws have been changed to bail out lenders who should not have made loans. Indentured servitude is back in my opinion, though it is loopholes to make it seem like it isn't.
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