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odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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September 10th, 2016 at 1:20:18 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Almost by definition, predatory lending is lending funds to someone you don't believe has the means to pay it back.

I think you can add that they typically then put themselves in a position to benefit from re-writing the consequences. Boy do the casinos have a good deal on that!

Quote:

Most casino check cashing policies require markers to be drawn against a linked checking account. I'll admit that I have no experience with 6-figure gambling budgets, nor do I ever expect to, but is the policy not the same at that level? If I sign a contract that says I'll withdraw money on credit from a casino and I promise that I have the funds to pay it back in a linked checking account, and I lie about that last part, how do you view that as the casino's fault?

I appreciate the feedback and I have conceded that I could be taking a more balanced position, yet I have to say I think the balance is already there! What you say is exactly what is going to keep a progressive-minded judge, say, from going off the rails from the point of view of the prosecution.

I think as far as change goes, I have some hope that some of these practices in other states than Nevada might see improvement by writing changes in the law. For example, once a casino has a check bounce on them, I think any further lending they allow for a period of time could be dischargeable in bankruptcy.
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Sep 10, 2016
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
billryan
billryan
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September 10th, 2016 at 1:23:40 PM permalink
The guy wrote bad checks. I don't really care who he wrote them to. A casino,a landlord, a travel agency. He wrote a check, collected the money and now is responsible for paying it back. That he may have lost most of it gambling with the people who lent it to him doesn't effect my opinion. As a bar owner, if I cashed a guys check and he proceeded to spend it on drinks in my bar, should I not be entitled to getting my money when I cash the check?
Your opinion may differ.
KingoftheEye
KingoftheEye
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September 10th, 2016 at 1:27:18 PM permalink
[snip]

Quote: odiousgambit


I do not have the facts, I am speculating, but I submit to you that this is another case that calls into question whether or not we can find "the casino at fault" here. [edit] Ask yourself if there is such a thing as predatory lending. I believe there is and I have come to believe firmly that these eye-popping cases where just about anybody has to not only ask "isn't that a lot of money to borrow" but also ask "why would any lender loan so much to anyone not knowing if they would repay it", that it is indeed predatory. [edit] Note the article speaks about the casino's involvement in opening up a convenient-for-them checking account with $100. Something was afoot.

Look, I first got interested in this from knowing someone who got into deep debt with illegal gambling and wound up being killed execution style. One of the big questions for me at the time was indeed this business of "why would they continue to loan him the money". After puzzling over it for years, I finally realized it actually makes sense to do so in a perverse way. I won't repeat all that here again. But I am going to be calling it like I see it.



I'm familiar with predatory lending and actually would go so far as to say that if there is some way for Forrest to prove predatory lending was involved here, the debt should be forgiven. A big problem he will run into here:

When you apply for casino credit (check cashing) you agree to allow the casino to call your bank and verify your accounts. As part of that process the bank will confirm a vague average balance. For example, if you have and average balance of $15,000 the bank would tell the casino "low 5" ( five digits). An average balance of $800K would be a "high 6". This is about half of the check. The rest is a call to Central Credit which tracks all of this player's credit at other casinos worldwide. Between the two, a decision is made on credit line. If Ted Forrest had a $215K credit line, he was probably rated higher than a "Low 6".

This all falls apart with TTO's though, so if some Pit Boss approved him above his limit, then there would be some things for his lawyer to attack.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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September 10th, 2016 at 3:47:13 PM permalink
Strictly my opinion, not claiming any expertise.

Poker players are optimists and gamblers. A pro who has a track record of millions won would be easily lured into casino credit with funds not on hand. 215k is pocket change. There's always a private high stakes game out there, and he has a winning history. He wouldn't view a cc withdrawal in the same catagory as rent or car payment. It's his business, and he knows how to win, so he sees virtually no risk.

Except sometimes variance is a bitch. And lows can sustain. And once you get down, it's really hard to dig out; you'd be giving off desperation tells, word would get around your circle you're strapped and in a slump, and all the time incurring new debt as you try to play your way back up. So you end up in the LasVegasSun, or in a ditch like OG's buddy.

But psychologically, the guy was ripe for this kind of downfall. It's not so much about personal responsibility; it's about self-delusion.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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September 10th, 2016 at 4:17:53 PM permalink
Casinos shift people do this all the time- can't go into exact specifics but I had a casino floor person grant 25k in credit on an account that was 1 week old and had less then 1k in it
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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September 10th, 2016 at 4:25:26 PM permalink
I can't help but laugh at this comment by Mike McDougall...

DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
GWAE
GWAE
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September 10th, 2016 at 4:33:43 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

you can't discharge any bad checks you wrote. The Casino Credit system relies on this. It is the same in all states allowing a marker system as far as I know.

I suspect one of the things that hooks the Mark is that he starts to realize these markers apparently are "just loans". For the Mark, along the 'way down', the loans are easy to get, no fees, no interest, a lot of forgiveness as long as a bad check gets paid off in a reasonable period that probably seems like a grace period. But such a deluded Mark is not realizing these easy loans are hiding some ugly enforcers.



Technically you can discharge a bad check if a person sues you over it. If they go to the DA and fIle charges then you can't discharge the restitution.
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odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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September 10th, 2016 at 5:33:43 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Technically you can discharge a bad check if a person sues you over it. If they go to the DA and fIle charges then you can't discharge the restitution.



I can't vouch for which states this might be true in, or whether it is a total canard period, but I worked with a guy who said it 'became a civil matter' and not a police matter once the stiffed party accepts a partial payment. He was always sure not to have this partial payment happen by carelessness; this was Ohio.

To sue might also make it a civil matter I guess.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
TomG
TomG
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September 10th, 2016 at 8:13:37 PM permalink
Quote: KingoftheEye

I don't see how anyone can find the casino at fault here. He was given the money, and he refused to pay it back. It's called personal responsibility.



Responsibility goes both ways. The casino could have done the responsible thing and waited for the check to clear. Any business that accepts a check for $200,000 knowing that there is no money is being irresponsible
GWAE
GWAE
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September 10th, 2016 at 8:29:26 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I can't vouch for which states this might be true in, or whether it is a total canard period, but I worked with a guy who said it 'became a civil matter' and not a police matter once the stiffed party accepts a partial payment. He was always sure not to have this partial payment happen by carelessness; this was Ohio.

To sue might also make it a civil matter I guess.



I wouldn't base anything on the weirdo ohio laws.

But yeah that sounds about right.

When you write them a check is it dated for the current date but they promise to hold it until x date? I assume that is what they do since a post dated check is illegal.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW

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