Why are there so many shootings in the US? (Split from Five Dead in LV)

Quote: Wizard

Five reported dead in northeast Las Vegas police ambush from the Las Vegas Review Journal.

I'm surprised nobody posted about this yet, so I'll be the first.

The question for the poll is why do you think there are so many random mass shootings in the the US?

The reason I think there is so much violence in our society is because of the decline of morality, common sense and not knowing right from wrong.

An idle mind is the devil's playground. Kids today don't have chores. They should. If you work hard and suffer a little, like our ancestors did, then at the end of the day, they would appreciate an evening meal (if they were lucky) and the simple pleasures of life.

Kids today are fed as much as they want, are surly to their parents, live in climate controlled environments. Their phones are the center of the universe. The internet is filled with garbage.

And there is no right and wrong anymore. I saw a girl leaving high school the other day. She wore tight fitting short shorts, bare legs, tennis shoes with no socks, a bare midriff and a t-shirt. This was apparel fit for the beach, not for school. That her parents or the school didn't recognize the impropriety, or didn't speak up about it, is the source of our moral decline.

On this very site, under Adult Discussions there's a post: "Where To Get More Than A Hand Job". I admit, I've read through part of it. Some of it is pretty funny. But we've become jaded. Fifty years ago you would never, ever, ever see this kind of writing or conversation in mainstream arenas. Did you know that in the 1920s, among respectable people, if you had a French kiss with a girl a marriage proposal was expected?

Maury Povich, Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, Miley Cyrus, Nicki Minaj. That these individuals flourish in our society--no wonder the Taliban hates us.

In schools in California a child can declare whether they are a boy or a girl. To allow this shows incredibly poor judgement. Children should not have this insidious option. Now children struggling to fit in, to assert themselves, to understand their feelings, can blame all their problems on being the wrong gender. I wonder how many kids will make this decision as an easy way out, for attention or to escape from dealing with their problems, to shock their parents. What a stain on one's soul it would be to make such a decision frivolously. Why not give children an additional option--that they are an alien being from another galaxy. Kids often can't even figure out if their parents are the source of all their problems or not. To give the question of their sexual identity to them at such a young age is like giving a grade school hall monitor a police badge. These decisions should never be left to children.

If you are born as a man you are a man. If you feel like a women, then you feel like a women, but you are a man. Come on, if you can't appreciate this then you need to rescrew your head on. Package--man. No package-- woman. Got rid of package--you need a shrink. Because anyone who feels they need surgery to make them feel better about themselves is not mentally sound. And the reality that our society is being coerced to feel that "picking the gender you want" is okay, is just screwey. Sorry Christine Jorgensen, feel whatever you want, but your body is sacred, and shouldn't be subjected to mutilation.

There was a program on cable last year, where a lady wanted to render herself a paraplegic through an operation. That's right, she could walk and function normally. But she wanted an operation to sever her spinal cord. This also is a sickness. That the show was produced is a sickness. That she be allowed to do this to herself shows how sick our society has become. I believe that people wanting to have "sexual reassignment" surgery is a sickness. A person should cherish the body God gave them. If you feel like a man or a woman so be it, but to have to surgically alter your genitals to feel good about yourself is not mentally sound.

Does it seem like I'm drifting from the question of why there are random shootings in the USA? Not at all. The decline in morality and common sense is at the heart of the issue. And gay issues are at the heart of morality.

Don't ask don't tell, yes. Project your gay morality upon the vast majority, take a hike. Where are we going with all this gay marriage and such? People that say they don't care what others do behind closed doors sound so tolerant and open minded, but they are naive. It starts behind closed doors, then our schools have to recognize and point out gay achievement, more gays on TV. Gays French kissing on TV. Gay commercials on TV and in print advertising. Quotas for gay ads, shows, theater plays. Companies being sued for not promoting their products to gays, boys nominated to become home coming queen. View the movie "City Slickers II: The Legend Of Curly's Gold" if you want to see how homosexual undertones have influenced our culture. And on and on and on and on.

For thousands of years marriage was defined as between a man and a woman. This definition should be sacrosanct. Let's just say that, specifically, marriage is between a man and a woman, and that no other kind of union except this kind of union can be called marriage. Then a union between anything other than a man and a woman is not marriage. A man cannot marry a man because, by definition, it is between a man and a woman. That the courts have ruled differently, I believe, is a legal error, a mistake in interpretation, a mistake in judgement. If two people want to have a civil ceremony, will their property to each other, have access to each other in the hospital, these things can already be arranged.

There is a clear advantage to defining marriage as between a man and a woman. That way, when the term is mentioned, we know precisely that we're talking about a union between a man and a woman. A union between two people of the same sex is not the same thing.

Why are people gay? Are they born that way? I don't think it can be proven. I believe that we are born with sexuality and a predilection to heterosexuality, nothing more. If we are raised to believe that gay interaction is acceptable and encouraged then the taboo is lifted. A child's first forays into sex aren't motivated by sexual desire, but by curiosity. Gays should never be allowed to adopt and raise children because they would be open to their charges experimenting in gay sex. And even if they weren't their lives are a testament to condoning it, in fact celebrating it. I believe there is a great likelihood that children raised by a gay couple would be much more likely to have an aberrant, weak or androgynous sexual identity.

Sexual identity is a very delicate thing. In childhood and adolescence, as the first stirrings of sexual desire emerge, inputs of fear, hate, discomfort, gay advances, etc., can stimulate aberrant sexual expression. In other words, aberrant stimulation during early sexual awakening can encourage aberrant sexual feelings. Once your wires are crossed, it's done. Once the delicate crystal has been allowed to fall and break, one's defined.

I have three male friends that are gay. One was dressed as a girl as a child by his mother. His blonde curly hair was allowed to grow long. He was bullied. There was an older boy that defended and befriended him. One day this young boy was guided into performing oral sex upon his defender. My friend said it felt like the most natural thing in the world. My other two friends were seduced, as children, into sexual acts by adult men. I realize that this is a small sample but it supports the idea that gay sexual advances can stimulate gay behavior.

You know, if we turned off the lights and let someone caress us, we wouldn't know if it was a man or a woman. I'm glad that I never fell victim to my neediness to allow myself to seek comfort from gay sex. There was a moment, many years ago, when I may have surrendered to opportunity. I was sad and lonely. I was in the company of my friend that as a child dressed as a girl and was allowed to grow his blonde curly hair long. The moment occurred when we were together one day. My thought at the time was that if he were to touch me that I might allow it. Whether I would have felt comfortable or not I do not know because he didn't make an advance. Many years later I spoke to him about the occasion. He was unaware that the opportunity had occurred, and he told me that he never would have done anything that would have jeopardized our friendship. You know what morality is? It is not seeking a gratification because you know it is not right. I will remain gratefully to my dying day that I was saved from participating in gay sex. You should never let your sadness or your neediness override your morality. I have often prayed to God to catch me if I should fall. It is a heartfelt prayer, and I know that I must first try with all my strength and will not to fall. I thank God to my dying breath.

I've thought in great detail about these issues long before posting my thoughts here. I wish harm to no one. I know there is a lot of pain regarding these issues. But I feel that there are some moral issues that are on the border of our comprehension, but are still immutable. Mankind would die out if homosexuality proliferated. How can a union be justified that does not procreate? That sex and procreation are inextricably linked upholds that this is the natural way.

I hope there is a moral uprising. A return to the moral respect that was evident during the turn of the 20th century.

I can just see someone responding to this post by saying: "So let me get this straight. You think that because gays are allowed to marry that that is the reason for mass shootings in the U.S.?" My response is that gay marriage has toppled one of the pillars of morality. And the decline in morality, common sense and a healthy society has fostered a sense of anger and hopelessness in some people.

Sally Ride lived with her experience as a private individual. God bless her. That she didn't allow her dignity to be questioned by moronic reporters is a blessing. That she lived her life privately and with dignity should be emulated. That her choices were grand, thank you, Sally.

On top of all that I blame the gays for Godzilla, global warming, Eric Cantor losing the election, and getting snapped off on slot progressives.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Sally Ride lived with her experience as a private individual.

Lou Reed probably wouldn't agree that she was a lesbian. I assume the song was from a very personal experience. "Ride Sally Ride".

Quote: Greasyjohn

I hope there is a moral uprising. A return to the moral respect that was evident during the turn of the 20th century.

.

So women should not be allowed to vote? That high moral ground?
African-Americans denied basic freedoms? That high moral ground?

Quote: SOOPOO

So women should not be allowed to vote? That high moral ground?
African-Americans denied basic freedoms? That high moral ground?

In the early years of the 20th century sex outside of marriage was frowned upon, marriage being between a man and a woman was immutable, women were modest, lust was not paraded in song and conversation, gays lived their lives privately. These things weren’t always observed, but at least they were ideals. But as you say, not all things about that era were morally right. But we evolved. My writing wasn’t about the subjects you mention. I do not wish to return to the morality of the early 20th century in every way.

I myself am not a paragon of morality, but I appreciate a culture that cherishes it.

So your argument is that a particular form of morality is the 'right' one that will stop gun violence. One that has probably never actually existed on it's own without things you say we have evolved. But only some of those evolutions do you view as morally correct and cherishable, while others corrupt.

I would also suggest those things you -think- were part of the early 20th century morality and mores are not so much actuality, but a wishful nostalgia.

Quote: thecesspit

So your argument is that a particular form of morality is the 'right' one that will stop gun violence. One that has probably never actually existed on it's own without things you say we have evolved. But only some of those evolutions do you view as morally correct and cherishable, while others corrupt.

I would also suggest those things you -think- were part of the early 20th century morality and mores are not so much actuality, but a wishful nostalgia.

I never said that a particular form of morality will "stop" gun violence. Why do you feel the need to exaggerate? I said that a decline in morality, common sense and a healthy society has fostered a sense of anger and hostility in some people.

If the world were a better place fewer people would lash out against it. I wish the world were a more moral place, but I think we are moving farther away from it than closer to it.

One thing I hope we can agree on is that we both want a better world.

Quote: Greasyjohn

I never said that a particular form of morality will "stop" gun violence. Why do you feel the need to exaggerate? I said that a decline in morality, common sense and a healthy society has fostered a sense of anger and hostility in some people.

If the world were a better place fewer people would lash out against it. I wish the world were a more moral place, but I think we are moving farther away from it than closer to it.

One thing I hope we can agree on is that we both want a better world.

Agree 100%. I do attribute much of the degenerating society problem we're having to pernicious advertising and violent entertainment. Not as an easy answer, or as a scapegoat, but as weeds planted in fertile minds over years and decades, with full color and 6 speaker stereo overwhelming the senses, pushing violent solutions, personal inadequacy only solved by purchasing xxxxx, and formulaic problem resolution in an hour or two. Almost to a man, the most creative, productive, and forward-thinking people I know are those who don't surround themselves with popular images, "news" programs, gossip shows, or the rest of mainstream culture. They're aware of it, but not subsumed by it.

"Almost to a man, the most creative, productive, and forward-thinking people I know are those who don't surround themselves with popular images, "news" programs, gossip shows, or the rest of mainstream culture. They're aware of it, but not subsumed by it."

Hear Hear !!

Its always the very shallow people who read the tabloids or know all the "latest fads" or focus on the Academy Awards. Different Drummers have so much more fun by remaining blissfully unaware of fads. Turning off the TV and reading a book instead can be so liberating. Paddle a kayak, take up target shooting, compare styles of warfare, trace trade patterns, do anything but read People Magazine and its endless trash about Kardashian Botox Adventures.

Quote: FleaStiff

Hear Hear !!
Its always the very shallow people who read the tabloids or know all the "latest fads" or focus on the Academy Awards. Different Drummers have so much more fun by remaining blissfully unaware of fads. Turning off the TV and reading a book instead can be so liberating. Paddle a kayak, take up target shooting, compare styles of warfare, trace trade patterns, do anything but read People Magazine and its endless trash about Kardashian Botox Adventures.

Hear Hear Hear! Why are the Kardashian's famous???? No talent, simply the wives of 2 celebrities, Kanye and Bruce Jenner. I don't get it. Most celebrity wives are not famous. weird.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Don't fool yourself, nobody "celebrates" any of these people.

Well, Jenner once actually did something

Quote: FleaStiff

"Almost to a man, the most creative, productive, and forward-thinking people I know are those who don't surround themselves with popular images, "news" programs, gossip shows, or the rest of mainstream culture. They're aware of it, but not subsumed by it."

Hear Hear !!

Its always the very shallow people who read the tabloids or know all the "latest fads" or focus on the Academy Awards. Different Drummers have so much more fun by remaining blissfully unaware of fads. Turning off the TV and reading a book instead can be so liberating. Paddle a kayak, take up target shooting, compare styles of warfare, trace trade patterns, do anything but read People Magazine and its endless trash about Kardashian Botox Adventures.

Of course, if you ask the Kardashians what's most important to them they will tell you it's family. Everybody says that. But I think what is most important to them is how white their teeth are. There are probably focus groups being held to determine if Kim's booty is of the proper plumpness to appeal to the shows demographics.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Quote: Wizard

Five reported dead in northeast Las Vegas police ambush from the Las Vegas Review Journal.

I'm surprised nobody posted about this yet, so I'll be the first.

The question for the poll is why do you think there are so many random mass shootings in the the US?

The reason I think there is so much violence in our society is because of the decline of morality, and not knowing right from wrong.

An idle mind is the devil's playground. Kids today don't have chores. They should. If you work hard and suffer a little, like our ancestors did, then at the end of the day, they would appreciate an evening meal (if they were lucky) and the simple pleasures of life.

Kids today are fed as much as they want, are surly to their parents, live in climate controlled environments. Their phones are the center of the universe. The internet is filled with garbage.

And there is no right and wrong anymore. I saw a girl leaving high school the other day. She wore tight fitting short shorts, bare legs, tennis shoes with no socks, a bare midriff and a t-shirt. This was apparel fit for the beach, not for school. That her parents or the school didn't recognize the impropriety, or didn't speak up about it, is the source of our moral decline.

On this very site, under Adult Discussions there's a post: "Where To Get More Than A Hand Job". I admit, I've read through part of it. Some of it is pretty funny. But we've become jaded. Fifty years ago you would never, ever, ever see this kind of writing or conversation in mainstream arenas. Did you know that in the 1920s, among respectable people, if you had a French kiss with a girl a marriage proposal was expected?

Maury Povich, Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, Miley Cyrus, Nicki Minaj. That these individuals flourish in our society--no wonder the Taliban hates us.

In schools in California a child can declare whether they are a boy or a girl. To allow this shows incredibly poor judgement. Children should not have this insidious option. Now children struggling to fit in, to assert themselves, to understand their feelings, can blame all their problems on being the wrong gender. I wonder how many kids will make this decision as an easy way out, for attention or to escape from dealing with their problems, to shock their parents. What a stain on one's soul it would be to make such a decision frivolously. Why not give children an additional option--that they are an alien being from another galaxy. Kids often can't even figure out if their parents are the source of all their problems or not. To give the question of their sexual identity to them at such a young age is like giving a grade school hall monitor a police badge. These decisions should never be left to children.

If you are born as a man you are a man. If you feel like a women, then you feel like a women, but you are a man. Come on, if you can't appreciate this then you need to rescrew your head on. Package--man. No package-- woman. Got rid of package--you need a shrink. Because anyone who feels they need surgery to make them feel better about themselves is not mentally sound. And the reality that our society is being coerced to feel that "picking the gender you want" is okay, is just screwey. Sorry Christine Jorgensen, feel whatever you want, but your body is sacred, and shouldn't be subjected to mutilation.

There was a program on cable last year, where a lady wanted to render herself a paraplegic through an operation. That's right, she could walk and function normally. But she wanted an operation to sever her spinal cord. This also is a sickness. That the show was produced is a sickness. That she be allowed to do this to herself shows how sick our society has become. I believe that people wanting to have "sexual reassignment" surgery is a sickness. A person should cherish the body God gave them. If you feel like a man or a woman so be it, but to have to surgically alter your genitals to feel good about yourself is not sound.

Does it seem like I'm drifting from the question of why there are random shootings in the USA? Not at all. The decline in morality and common sense is at the heart of the issue. And gay issues are at the heart of morality.

Don't ask don't tell, yes. Project your gay morality upon the vast majority, take a hike. Where are we going with all this gay marriage and such? People that say they don't care what others do behind closed doors sound so tolerant and open minded, but they are naive. It starts behind closed doors, then our schools have to recognize and point out gay achievement, more gays on TV. Gays French kissing on TV. Gay commercials on TV and in print advertising. Quotas for gay ads, shows, theater plays. Companies being sued for not promoting their products to gays, boys nominated to become home coming queen. View the movie "City Slickers II: The Legend Of Curly's Gold" if you want to see how homosexual undertones have influenced our culture. And on and on and on and on.

For thousands of years marriage was defined as between a man and a woman. This definition should be sacrosanct. Let's just say that, specifically, marriage is between a man and a woman, and that no other kind of union except this kind of union can be called marriage. Then a union between anything other than a man and a woman is not marriage. A man cannot marry a man because, by definition, it is between a man and a woman. That the courts have ruled differently, I believe, is a legal error, a mistake in interpretation, a mistake in judgement. If two people want to have a civil ceremony, will their property to each other, have access to each other in the hospital, these things can already be arranged.

There is a clear advantage to defining marriage as between a man and a woman. That way, when the term is mentioned, we know precisely that we're talking about a union between a man and a woman. A union between two people of the same sex is not the same thing.

Why are people gay? Are they born that way? I don't think it can be proven. I believe that we are born with sexuality and a predilection to heterosexuality, nothing more. If we are raised to believe that gay interaction is acceptable and encouraged then the taboo is lifted. A child's first forays into sex aren't motivated by sexual desire, but by curiosity. Gays should never be allowed to adopt and raise children because they would be open to their charges experimenting in gay sex. And even if they weren't their lives are a testament to condoning it, in fact celebrating it. I believe there is a great likelihood that children raised by a gay couple would be much more likely to have an aberrant, weak or androgynous sexual identity.

Sexual identity is a very delicate thing. In childhood and adolescence, as the first stirrings of sexual desire emerge, inputs of fear, hate, discomfort, gay advances, etc., can stimulate aberrant sexual expression. In other words, aberrant stimulation during early sexual awakening can encourage aberrant sexual feelings. Once your wires are crossed, it's done. Once the delicate crystal has been allowed to fall and break, one's defined.

I have three male friends that are gay. One was dressed as a girl as a child by his mother. His blonde curly hair was allowed to grow long. He was bullied. There was an older boy that defended and befriended him. One day this young boy was guided into performing oral sex upon his defender. My friend said it felt like the most natural thing in the world. My other two friends were seduced, as children, into sexual acts by adult men. I realize that this is a small sample but it supports the idea that gay sexual advances can stimulate gay behavior.

I've thought in great detail about these issues long before posting my thoughts here. I wish harm to no one. I know there is a lot of pain regarding these issues. But I feel that there are some moral issues that are on the border of our comprehension, but are still immutable. Mankind would die out if homosexuality proliferated. How can a union be justified that does not procreate? That sex and procreation are inextricably linked upholds that this is the natural way.

I hope there is a moral uprising. A return to the moral respect that was evident during the turn of the 20th century.

I can just see someone responding to this post by saying: "So let me get this straight. You think that because gays are allowed to marry that that is the reason for mass shootings in the U.S.?" My response is that gay marriage has toppled one of the pillars of morality. And the decline in morality, common sense and a healthy society has fostered a sense of anger and hopelessness in some people.

Sally Ride lived with her experience as a private individual. God bless her. That she didn't allow her dignity to be questioned by moronic reporters is a blessing. That she lived her life privately and with dignity should be emulated. That her choices were grand, thank you, Sally.

I've added and refined several paragraphs to the original post.

Quote: rxwine

Well, Jenner once actually did something

Sadly he's probably much more well-known as Kim, Khloe, and Kourtney's stepdad and Kylie and Kendall's dad. My g/f's cousin named her twin girls Kylie and Kendall... Horrible.

Quote: Greasyjohn

And the decline in morality, common sense and a healthy society has fostered a sense of anger and hopelessness in some people.

I thought immediately of your decline in morality post when I saw this

Quote:

'Two of the men approached me and asked if I’d be interested bar tending. They told me there’d be things going on I might not want to see.


'Trust me – having worked the party before things got too hot and heavy – there are things I am trying to forget already.

That is a real lengthy list but I wonder if the two shooters really would have had the attention span to even read it much less think about it? And it sure doesn't seem to have been relevant to their lives or their deaths.

Quote: FleaStiff

That is a real lengthy list but I wonder if the two shooters really would have had the attention span to even read it much less think about it? And it sure doesn't seem to have been relevant to their lives or their deaths.

If you are looking for a slogan, perhaps "the closing of the frontier" is best. Personal grudges and disputes are no longer escapable, we have no way of avoiding hopelessness. The couple in Las Vegas, the loser in Santa Barbara each had different amounts of money thrown at their problems but there was no place to go. Santa Barbara Cry Baby wanted his Blonde, Surfer, Sorority Girl even though Blonde Surfer Sorority Girls want large, well-muscled surfer dudes, not 97 pound weaklings with the testosterone levels of a mosquito. His parents were willing to spend a small fortune on his cars and housing and shrinks, but not face up to his being the 97 pound weakling that he was.

Its time to reconsider Rip Van Winkle. When he awakes he is just as politically correct as when he went to sleep but society has changed its definitions. He can't go into a Pub and drink to the King's health anymore. They think he is a Tory and are ready to string him up to the nearest apple tree.

Recall the Runaway Bride of some years ago. Fled from her problems in Atlanta and committed a few crimes in New Mexico. Had she made it to Los Angeles, she would have been jailed there for her crimes, but New Mexico simply sent her back to Atlanta where family friends and shrinks would provide a support network for her much more effectively than a New Mexico jail would.

One woman, traveling with her two dogs, arrived at a coastal Indian reservation and inquired about trail regulations, beach regulations and dog leash laws, and could not imagine having found a place that said dogs and people are best behaved when they can obey their own laws, not someone else's rules. We consider the Indian reservation to be poverty, that woman and her dogs have no contempt for it though.

Its our society as a whole that seems to have less tolerance for the goth, the punk, the weirdo, the poor. Consider traveling by freight and being an anarchist. It is contradictory? No, not at all. That is why the rail road employees are so helpful in letting them know when a train is making up and where a hole in the fence can be found. Anarchists may not recognize the rail road's property rights but anarchists are the most well behaved group of train riders there are. Anarchists can cooperatively restore a derelict sailboat while composing haiku about mold even though anarchists have very fluid concepts of ownership of property. Anarchists rebel at the mere thought of discipline aboard a boat, but when its "get that sail in or die" you've never seen more cooperative sailors with everyone taking on their role instantly.

We have more shootings because we give fewer outlets where society's discontents can simply be left alone. Now its draw a hangman, be suspended from school. Be goth, Be Gone. No one wants to let the old geezer toast the King anymore. No one lets someone leave town anymore.

So sexual diversity is responsible for mass shootings? Seriously, OP? Or does that belief just enable you to deal with two phenomena that challenge your world view?

Let me just present this fact to you: Switzerland: Lots of guns, lots of sexual diversity - two mass shootings on record (1912, 2001) both committed by mentally ill perpetrators.

So here is an equally simplistic theory instead: Guns + Poverty = Mass Shootings

Quote: Canyonero

So sexual diversity is responsible for mass shootings? Seriously, OP? Or does that belief just enable you to deal with two phenomena that challenge your world view?

Let me just present this fact to you: Switzerland: Lots of guns, lots of sexual diversity - two mass shootings on record (1912, 2001) both committed by mentally ill perpetrators.

So here is an equally simplistic theory instead: Guns + Poverty = Mass Shootings

Canyonero,

I knew I'd get responses like this. That's why I wrote the second to last paragraph.

There are a lot of other topics I wrote about other than sexual morality or diversity, and taken together is how I came to my conclusion. Why do you pick just one part of my writing and suggest that this alone led to my conclusion?

Quote: Greasyjohn

Canyonero,

I knew I'd get responses like this. That's why I wrote the second to last paragraph.

There are a lot of other topics I wrote about other than sexual morality or diversity, and taken together is how I came to my conclusion. Why do you pick just one part of my writing and suggest that this alone led to my conclusion?

A long post like this can not be defeated. It would take an even longer post that has to quash each of your remarks.

I agree with Canyonero though. Most of your post seemed to have no correlation to gun violence.

I'm going back on what I said, I think I gave you too much credit. Your theory is that decline of morality is causing people to shoot others. That is the only part of your post that actually makes sense.

Paragraph 1: Decline of morality causes shootings

2: Kids don't have chores and get to eat every night.

3: Same

4: Girls wear too little

5: WOV forum has adult discussion

6: Celebrities

7: Transsexual kids

8: Transsexuals

9: Transsexuals

10: Being gay isn't moral (No evidence saying why)

11: Gays

12: Gay marriage

13: Gay marriage

14: Gays

15: Gays

16: Gays

17: Gays

18: Gays

19: OP Might be gay

20: Gays

21: Moral uprising needed

22: Gays

23: Gays

Besides LGBT issues, which took up about 90% of the text, you mentioned other issues like the WOV forum, bad parenting, and celebrity worshiping. Yet, not once you ever mentioned guns or mental health issues.

Then, when people say "You know, it seems like you're blaming gays for mass shootings", you get to say "SEE! I knew that's what you'd get from this! I never said that!" Even though about 90% of the space of your argument was used on that. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Canyonero,

I knew I'd get responses like this. That's why I wrote the second to last paragraph.

There are a lot of other topics I wrote about other than sexual morality or diversity, and taken together is how I came to my conclusion. Why do you pick just one part of my writing and suggest that this alone led to my conclusion?

I made the effort of reading your post again. I cannot find any other topic than sexual morality or diversity. What am I missing?

Quote: FinsRule

I'm going back on what I said, I think I gave you too much credit. Your theory is that decline of morality is causing people to shoot others. That is the only part of your post that actually makes sense.

Paragraph 1: Decline of morality causes shootings

2: Kids don't have chores and get to eat every night.

3: Same

4: Girls wear too little

5: WOV forum has adult discussion

6: Celebrities

7: Transsexual kids

8: Transsexuals

9: Transsexuals

10: Being gay isn't moral (No evidence saying why)

11: Gays

12: Gay marriage

13: Gay marriage

14: Gays

15: Gays

16: Gays

17: Gays

18: Gays

19: OP Might be gay

20: Gays

21: Moral uprising needed

22: Gays

23: Gays

Besides LGBT issues, which took up about 90% of the text, you mentioned other issues like the WOV forum, bad parenting, and celebrity worshiping. Yet, not once you ever mentioned guns or mental health issues.

Then, when people say "You know, it seems like you're blaming gays for mass shootings", you get to say "SEE! I knew that's what you'd get from this! I never said that!" Even though about 90% of the space of your argument was used on that. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

Thanks for making the effort Fins!

Quote: Canyonero

So here is an equally simplistic theory instead: Guns + Poverty = Mass Shootings

Which is another failed theory. With twice as many guns in the US as 20 years ago, millions more hunting rifles the far-left nutjobs insist on labeling "assault weapons" and poverty unchanged the murder rate is DOWN by half over 25 years.
More guns + more "assault weapons" = a murder rate cut in half.

US murder rate per 100,000:
1993- 9.5
2011- 4.7

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/12/congressional-study-gun-ownership-drastically-up-since-94-murder-rate-cut-in-half-2840182.html

Quote: FinsRule

A long post like this can not be defeated. It would take an even longer post that has to quash each of your remarks.

I agree with Canyonero though. Most of your post seemed to have no correlation to gun violence.

FinsRule,

You say you agree with Canyonero. Perhaps you or he can answer the question I asked of him. Or is silence a concession? (Edit: I didn't see your later post as I was writing this one.) You say that most of my post seemed to have little to do with gun violence. And to those who feel that way I think it's because many people are looking for answers in the wrong places. As I said in a prior post, if the world were a better place then fewer people would want to lash out against it. Gun control tries to keep guns from angry people. That's a good idea, but the anger and hopelessness of people is at the heart of the issue. A decline in morality, common sense and knowing right from wrong is what has led to this anger and hopelessness, and a more violent world.

"A decline in morality, common sense and knowing right from wrong is what has led to this anger and hopelessness, and a more violent world."

I'd say a wealth transfer upwards has lead to a anger and hopelessness. Not that I disagree with the argument about a decline in morality or knowing right from wrong. However, I do disagree that gay marriage is any sort of decline in morality.

Quote: bobsims

Which is another failed theory. With twice as many guns in the US as 20 years ago, millions more hunting rifles the far-left nutjobs insist on labeling "assault weapons" and poverty unchanged the murder rate is DOWN by half over 25 years.
More guns + more "assault weapons" = a murder rate cut in half.

US murder rate per 100,000:
1993- 9.5
2011- 4.7

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/12/congressional-study-gun-ownership-drastically-up-since-94-murder-rate-cut-in-half-2840182.html

Thanks for those numbers. It is not so easy with poverty levels however. The national poverty line is basically set by the administration and there is political motivation behind it.

Let us have a look at extreme poverty, as defined by international standards:

From Wikipedia:
In 2009 the number of people who were in poverty was approaching 1960s levels that led to the national War on Poverty.[11] In 2011 extreme poverty in the United States, meaning households living on less than $2 per day before government benefits, was double 1996 levels at 1.5 million households, including 2.8 million children.[12]

Within the U.S. a population of roughly the size of the Central African Republic exists that is living in extreme poverty. And they are continuously exposed to the first world lifestyle around them. And they have access to guns. Good luck.


However, government benefits SHOULD be taken into account when calculating the extreme poverty rate. As long as you have housing, food security, health care, education you are not technically "extremely poor", no matter where those benefits come from. Coundln't find any numbers on extreme poverty after benefits though.

Quote: Canyonero

I made the effort of reading your post again. I cannot find any other topic than sexual morality or diversity. What am I missing?

I won't point out all the paragraphs you missed. But how about the one about the woman that wanted to have an operation to sever her spinal cord? Or do you consider that diversity?

Quote: Greasyjohn

I won't point out all the paragraphs you missed. But how about the one about the woman that wanted to have an operation to sever her spinal cord? Or do you consider that diversity?

An anecdote about a mentally ill person? That causes mass shootings? I am going out on a limb here: She was crazy. Her doctor refused to do it. End of story.

What has that got to do with anything?

Quote: Canyonero

An anecdote about a mentally ill person? That causes mass shootings? I am going out on a limb here: She was crazy. Her doctor refused to do it. End of story.

What has that got to do with anything?

Deleted

Quote: Canyonero

An anecdote about a mentally ill person? That causes mass shootings? I am going out on a limb here: She was crazy. Her doctor refused to do it. End of story.

What has that got to do with anything?

You didn't answer my question.

Quote: Greasyjohn

You didn't answer my question.

Do I consider that diversty? No I don't. I consider that crazy. And the ideas of crazy people are not exactly evidence for the decline of morality.

Here's a new point: Mass shootings cause mass shootings. It is a way for psychopaths of expressing themselves towards society. If the option of "gloriously" going out with a mass shooting wasn't presented to them, they might have just killed themselves. Suggestion: No media coverage on the perpetrators, no name, no pictures, no nothing. Not gonna happen with the 24hr "news" networks though...

Quote: Canyonero

Do I consider that diversty? No I don't. I consider that crazy. And the ideas of crazy people are not exactly evidence for the decline of morality.

Here's a new point: Mass shootings cause mass shootings. It is a way for psychopaths of expressing themselves towards society. If the option of "gloriously" going out with a mass shooting wasn't presented to them, they might have just killed themselves. Suggestion: No media coverage on the perpetrators, no name, no pictures, no nothing. Not gonna happen with the 24hr "news" networks though...

You said that the only topics in my OP were sexual morality or diversity. Then I pointed out a topic that was neither. Now you're acknowledging that that is so. I'm not trying to be argumentative. But we're not going to get anywhere if we don't acknowledge our errors and leave unfinished business.

That topic had more to do than with just a crazy person. Why do you dismiss the other culprits I mention?

Although some mass shootings have to do with people that are mentally ill, I think that people feeling anger, humiliation, hopelessness, frustration and giving up is more likely.

I appreciate that you have been civil. At the risk of sounding too sentimental, I'd like to mention something. It's not nearly as important to me what someone believes. People that are kind to each other and show friendship is what's important.

I've always looked at Violence in America as a corellation to our US History. It (Violence) has always been a part of this culture. It has never left, and is getting "worse" by means of a more open society. Although the LBGT angle is part of this "moral decline" it is mild compared to the treatment of the family, and the mentally ill. I do perceive the following flow, that as the American Dream has to be made availible to a larger population, that many sacrifices have been recently tossed at more people. I like to call them obstacles. The first one is the dual-income family, a PC phrase that both parents need full-time work. I don't recall this being significant in the '60's, but by the '80s it became "necessary". Its a matter-of-fact today. Just that alone opens the door to unsupervised children. And we all know there are several problems that develop there. Of them peer-association is the strongest influence, rather than family association. Kids get thrown into the real world at a younger age making rather adult decisions about life by way of their competitive peers rather than a non-competitive family setting. The social fabric of sex, drugs, violence, responsibility, education, finances, couth, and scheduled priorities gets scrambled. Why? because one is learning from competitors, not family. I have realized the very dysfunctional US has had a root (of many) here.

Eventually more to follow.

Quote: Canyonero

If the option of "gloriously" going out with a mass shooting wasn't presented to them, they might have just killed themselves. Suggestion: No media coverage on the perpetrators, no name, no pictures, no nothing. Not gonna happen with the 24hr "news" networks though...

I don't think they do it for the publicity, though some may be inspired by it. Your suggestion is fine if considered as one thing that can be done, and not the whole solution.

Complex problems usually don't have simple solutions.

At that, though, I prefer people who present simple solution which may help, than people who air a laundry list of prejudices unrelated to the problem as the "solution" to that problem. As if removing freedom and repressing rights would ever have any kind of positive outcome.

Quote: Nareed

I don't think they do it for the publicity, though some may be inspired by it. Your suggestion is fine if considered as one thing that can be done, and not the whole solution.

Complex problems usually don't have simple solutions.

At that, though, I prefer people who present simple solution which may help, than people who air a laundry list of prejudices unrelated to the problem as the "solution" to that problem. As if removing freedom and repressing rights would ever have any kind of positive outcome.

As if removing freedom and repressing rights would ever have any kind of positive outcome?

I think we, just as children, want limits. We want someone who will tell us right from wrong. We want a leader that sternly guides us in the right direction. Man will be as bad as he's allowed to be. People are aching for strong leadership. The morals of our country are in disarray. The definition of right and wrong has become blurred. We do not recognize those in trouble. Sometimes we need to say a powerful truth to those that need to hear truth. Look someone straight in the eye and say what your heart commands you. How many people on the edge would have been helped if someone would have taken the time to recognize the subtle signs of their pain?

The question regarding my OP had to do with mass shootings. A lot of people thought I should have talked about gun control and mental illness. Gun control, while a good idea, doesn't address the underlying issue of why. Anger, frustration, feeling humiliated, hopelessness, giving up, feeling like the world is a worthless place. These are the reasons people lash out. I don't think that in most mass shootings mental illness was the reason. Yes, in some cases, but not the vast majority.

The decline in morality, common sense and a healthy society, is a breeding ground for all the reasons that people lash out. It's also a breeding ground for mental illness.

Quote: Greasyjohn

As if removing freedom and repressing rights would ever have any kind of positive outcome?

I think we, just as children, want limits. We want someone who will tell us right from wrong. We want a leader that sternly guides us in the right direction. Man will be as bad as he's allowed to be. People are aching for strong leadership. The morals of our country are in disarray. The definition of right and wrong has become blurred. We do not recognize those in trouble. Sometimes we need to say a powerful truth to those that need to hear truth. Look someone straight in the eye and say what your heart commands you. How many people on the edge would have been helped if someone would have taken the time to recognize the subtle signs of their pain?

The question regarding my OP had to do with mass shootings. A lot of people thought I should have talked about gun control and mental illness. Gun control, while a good idea, doesn't address the underlying issue of why. Anger, frustration, feeling humiliated, hopelessness, giving up, feeling like the world is a worthless place. These are the reasons people lash out. I don't think that in most mass shootings mental illness was the reason. Yes, in some cases, but not the vast majority.

The decline in morality, common sense and a healthy society, is a breeding ground for all the reasons that people lash out. It's also a breeding ground for mental illness.

I think there's a common condition, whether the mental illness lasts 30 seconds or a lifetime, to all shootings; some combination of rage and despair. We build a society conducive to both with the degradation of manners and common sense, when we only pay attention to extreme drama and not everyday actions, and when we celebrate bad behavior with media storms discussing evil actions. We encourage dependency, self-dissatisfaction, shallow values of fame and monetary wealth, hero-worship of unworthy celebrities, and constant distraction from common values in the effort to attract and entertain an ever-more restless population. Is it any wonder when no one is ever good enough, thin enough, rich enough, esteemed for their contributions without being undercut with spun criticism, that there's so much rage and frustration in the population?

People just want to be accepted, to be part of a community, to be productive, to have friends, family, to live their life with some purpose. Almost everything culturally has changed to prevent that simple path to a happy life. Those that live it, in my experience, do so by ignoring popular media and criticism from around them, more now than ever before. Those that lose it seem to me to be overly vulnerable to that noise.

Quote: beachbumbabs

People just want to be accepted, to be part of a community, to be productive, to have friends, family, to live their life with some purpose. Almost everything culturally has changed to prevent that simple path to a happy life. Those that live it, in my experience, do so by ignoring popular media and criticism from around them, more now than ever before. Those that lose it seem to me to be overly vulnerable to that noise.

Boom.

Everyone wants acceptance. Most keep looking in the wrong places, all the while confident it is the answer.

Turn on. Tune in. Drop out. Read it. Do it. Be free.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I think there's a common condition, whether the mental illness lasts 30 seconds or a lifetime, to all shootings; some combination of rage and despair. We build a society conducive to both with the degradation of manners and common sense, when we only pay attention to extreme drama and not everyday actions, and when we celebrate bad behavior with media storms discussing evil actions. We encourage dependency, self-dissatisfaction, shallow values of fame and monetary wealth, hero-worship of unworthy celebrities, and constant distraction from common values in the effort to attract and entertain an ever-more restless population. Is it any wonder when no one is ever good enough, thin enough, rich enough, esteemed for their contributions without being undercut with spun criticism, that there's so much rage and frustration in the population?

People just want to be accepted, to be part of a community, to be productive, to have friends, family, to live their life with some purpose. Almost everything culturally has changed to prevent that simple path to a happy life. Those that live it, in my experience, do so by ignoring popular media and criticism from around them, more now than ever before. Those that lose it seem to me to be overly vulnerable to that noise.

Eloquent.

Quote: thecesspit

So your argument is that a particular form of morality is the 'right' one that will stop gun violence. One that has probably never actually existed on it's own without things you say we have evolved. But only some of those evolutions do you view as morally correct and cherishable, while others corrupt.

I would also suggest those things you -think- were part of the early 20th century morality and mores are not so much actuality, but a wishful nostalgia.

In the early 20th century, my wife's great-grandmother was murdered by her lover (she was married to my wife's great-grandfather) before he took his own life (with a gun). Wishful nostalgia indeed.

Rage and despair ... a feeling of hopelessness and perhaps an acceptance of hopelessness.

We all sigh at the young girl who kills herself over insurmountable debts when unbeknownst to her she had a winning lottery ticket in her pocket. We don't sigh as often or as sympathetically when someone works week after week at a minimum wage job and just digs themselves deeper and deeper into debt even though its the same feeling of hopelessness and utter despair.

Some people go from dumpster diving teenager to subsistence farmer to entrepreneur others just stay at the dumpster diving stage, grow old and bitter and at times erupt into a frenzy of imagined retribution for their fate in life. Perhaps they are the courageous ones because they choose to go out in a blaze of imagined glory rather than go slowly by drinking MadDog 2020 each night.

That group of Anarchists is perhaps a good example. They live with a constant awareness of poverty but are constantly on the lookout for opportunity: They sailed around the Caribbean in a near derelict boat but saw opportunities. One went from squatting in urban california to owning her own home that she had built in the jungle of some island while exporting syrup, another just kept building homes and selling them. It is a matter of redefining their freedoms and their environments rather than focusing on their constraints. Those who focus on the constraints think that going out in a shootout is heroic, but they are the ones who chose to learn so much about guns.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Eloquent.

Yes indeed. Eloquent.

Mental illness is on the rise. Access to guns is on the rise. The two, in combination, results in tragedies. There are comments that laws and enforcement of those laws will prevent gun violence, but those who are mentally incapacitated whether for 30 seconds or 30 years are not capable of recognizing the law.

Early recognition of mental illness and treatment goes a long way to decreasing the probability of violent death due to guns in these people's hands. Reducing overall anger and rage in society by creating a more just and equal society without the usual hooks to self-esteem might decrease gun violence overall despite the availability of guns.

Quote: boymimbo

Yes indeed. Eloquent.

Mental illness is on the rise. Access to guns is on the rise. The two, in combination, results in tragedies. There are comments that laws and enforcement of those laws will prevent gun violence, but those who are mentally incapacitated whether for 30 seconds or 30 years are not capable of recognizing the law.

Early recognition of mental illness and treatment goes a long way to decreasing the probability of violent death due to guns in these people's hands. Reducing overall anger and rage in society by creating a more just and equal society without the usual hooks to self-esteem might decrease gun violence overall despite the availability of guns.

I question the bolded. An honest question, yes. Are they really on the rise?

Are people just crazier now? Or are there more cases because there's more people? Or better detection? Or the definition of "mental illness" being spread wider?

Sort of a random question, but it feels important.

The first answer is almost impossible to quantify because the definition of "mental illness" changes all of the time and even the experts can't put a trend to it based on diagnostic measures, but the answer appears to be that incidences of schizophenia are indeed on the rise.

Access to guns is on the rise because gun ownership is on the rise, so it too, is an assumption, but a pretty good one.

Quote: Face

Are people just crazier now? Or are there more cases because there's more people? Or better detection? Or the definition of "mental illness" being spread wider?

Sort of a random question, but it feels important.

I would tend to doubt that the percentage of population with mental illness is going up. I would not be surprised if the number of people being diagnosed with mental illness is increasing.

World ran out of ideas. It's same repeating cycle, which makes people go nuts. Money dictates the way we should live our lives, not enough to make brains function at full capacity.

Quote: boymimbo

The first answer is almost impossible to quantify because the definition of "mental illness" changes all of the time and even the experts can't put a trend to it based on diagnostic measures, but the answer appears to be that incidences of schizophenia are indeed on the rise.

That's what I was wondering. Was it more "statistics manipulation", or is it a real thing.

Quote: boymimbo

Access to guns is on the rise because gun ownership is on the rise, so it too, is an assumption, but a pretty good one.

The hilarious part? The spike in gun ownership was entirely the result of the tyrannical attempt to ban them. We still can't get ammo, all because of the hysteria caused by the recent anti-gun push (and the idiocy of my fellow gunners thinking it would ever be successful).

Sometimes even running water shocks me, because we really are a stupid bunch of meatlings ;)

Quote: Face

The spike in gun ownership was entirely the result of the tyrannical attempt to ban them.

There is nothing tyrannical about me wanting to keep my children safe be keeping guns off the streets. If a majority in a democratic country feel this way, it is our democratic right to "ban" guns as a society. We turn to our elected leaders to get that done.

Her comes the tyrannical part: A vast majority of Americans want stricter gun regulations. A tyrannical tiny minority has corrupted our elected officials and is imposing their will on this vast majority by means of corruption.

Another thing that comes to mind:

America seems to lose the middle ground, it is always two extremes, all-or-nothing.

Ban all guns or Guns galore
superstar celebrity or total failure
Republican or Democrat
msnbc or Fox News
billionaire or parasite
capitalism or socialism
puritan or fuck-all-that-moves
pro-bullying-bill vs. "zero tolerance" (in schools)
saint or tyrant
tyranny or get rid of all government
regulate everything or regulate nothing

In an environment like this, if you feel compelled to decide between two extremes, a misguided mind might decide between hero or villain. And, where hero is not an option, mass-murdering villain always is.