FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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January 21st, 2014 at 5:27:32 PM permalink
Apparently at the lower rung levels players simply "bag and tag" and self count their chips.

I would think all those self counts would be added up and someone would notice an overage but apparently not.

Of course there were undoubtedly advance logos displayed in the literature ... all they had to do is have chips for the brochures and chips for the real tournament. There might still be counterfeits but they would be hurried jobs for sure.

I think someone who has a chip making company with RFID capability will be sending a salesman to the Borgatta soon.

It seems things like this happened before and the known perpetrators still kept the money.

There has to be some time when Bag and Tag records at start of day and end of day differ from people who left tournament and their bags.

Strange.
gpac1377
gpac1377
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January 21st, 2014 at 5:52:54 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

I think someone who has a chip making company with RFID capability will be sending a salesman to the Borgatta soon.


On 2+2 they said RFID is totally cost-prohibitive, and possibly also impractical for poker tournament situations.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
Tomspur
Tomspur
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January 21st, 2014 at 6:07:46 PM permalink
I would agree with gpac, no chance of RFID chips being introduced for non-value chips such as tournament chips when most casinos don't even want to put the RFID or EM technology into their value chips that gets used on the floor.

I would, however consider the following. After each days play each table has to remain seated and the dealers have th count down everybody's chip stacks before they are bagged. There will be some variances due to run-ups but nothing as drastic as what has happened at Borgata. Also a master list has to be created by the TD which allows for all figures to be captured into the computer and a database kept of each denomination and compare it to starting chip stacks. As long as all the info is entered into the PC at the beginning of play, they should have a relatively accurate picture at the end of the day.
It sounds like a lot of extra work especially in deep fields but there is already a dealer at each table. They get the master list and write down names, players club numbers and chip values........

Would add perhaps 15 or 20 minutes on at the end of the day!

Borgata is going to have a nightmare resolving this one. The people who got paid will disappear, the people who made the final 3 tables will sue, the others who got knocked out will want their money back......

Good luck and not a nice position to be in.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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January 21st, 2014 at 7:23:04 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Could make sense since it's possible the cheater is only good at cheating and not poker.

Seriously? give me some real big names of poker players you think are good and have never cheated. Then think about it for a while.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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January 21st, 2014 at 7:31:17 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

On 2+2 they said RFID is totally cost-prohibitive, and possibly also impractical for poker tournament situations.

Man, you wanna see "cost-prohibitive" you just wait and see the next insurance premium increase for Borgata and the legal bills for their next six months, not to mention bad press.

Poker rooms and poker tournaments may be considered "sidelines" to get real gamblers into this place but once they become points of vulnerability, things will change.

Its like swizzle sticks. No one, absolutely no one even knows how much they cost, but once one is used to get into a casino vault there will be a sudden interest in swizzle sticks.
anonimuss
anonimuss
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January 21st, 2014 at 7:36:14 PM permalink
Finding out where and how the counterfeit chips were introduced is nowhere near as difficult as it appears. You have the point where they were discovered. You have the player they were found on. You have to work backward from there and track the 5K chips on the films. That the cameras are always on and always catch everything is a common casino fallacy. However, for a tournament of this magnitude, you would think there's a high probability every table was filmed. Additionally, the casino may have anticipated this and made sure the camera was running on every table.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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January 21st, 2014 at 7:37:34 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Man, you wanna see "cost-prohibitive" you just wait and see the next insurance premium increase for Borgata and the legal bills for their next six months, not to mention bad press.

Poker rooms and poker tournaments may be considered "sidelines" to get real gamblers into this place but once they become points of vulnerability, things will change.

Its like swizzle sticks. No one, absolutely no one even knows how much they cost, but once one is used to get into a casino vault there will be a sudden interest in swizzle sticks.



Fun post, Flea...swizzle sticks. I have a small collection of them I dearly love from over the years. Wonder which one doubles as the key to the vault? Hmmm...

EDIT: I could easily be wrong, but I don't think the Borgata's going to get hurt badly unless they screw up the aftermath. The perception is that there were cheaters, not that the casino was at fault. More like, "Borgata provides this great tourney and the beautiful venue, and some d-bags come and screw it up for everybody."
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Tomspur
Tomspur
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January 21st, 2014 at 7:45:35 PM permalink
Quote: anonimuss

Finding out where and how the counterfeit chips were introduced is nowhere near as difficult as it appears. You have the point where they were discovered. You have the player they were found on. You have to work backward from there and track the 5K chips on the films. That the cameras are always on and always catch everything is a common casino fallacy. However, for a tournament of this magnitude, you would think there's a high probability every table was filmed. Additionally, the casino may have anticipated this and made sure the camera was running on every table.



If the tournament was held in a concert hall or a conventio space (which it would have had to be) then there is every possibility that the footage will be a problem. In most cases there are multiple cameras watching one game but with a makeshift location there will more than likely only be one camera and for the most part the camera is fixed on the action and the stacks. It will be very hard to see someone remove something from their pockets and discreetly introude it to their stacks. What happens if the chips are also introduced when the person moves tables?

It can be done but it is going to require a LARGE amount of luck. Even if you find footage of the event it will have to be CLEAR otherwise you cannot gain a prosecution based on the footage.

Like I said earlier! Good luck to them, they are going to need it!!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
anonimuss
anonimuss
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January 21st, 2014 at 8:31:34 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

What happens if the chips are also introduced when the person moves tables?



You're working backwards. You'd see him arrive at the new table with (X) 5K chips. Then you'd see him leave the previous table with (X-4) 5K chips. As far as cameras this was a major event. The casino knows cheating goes on and plans for it. I'd think there is a camera on every table. The cameras can read the serial number on a bill. They can follow 5K chips with no problem...if they were filming.
Tomspur
Tomspur
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January 21st, 2014 at 8:37:01 PM permalink
Quote: anonimuss

You're working backwards. You'd see him arrive at the new table with (X) 5K chips. Then you'd see him leave the previous table with (X-4) 5K chips. As far as cameras this was a major event. The casino knows cheating goes on and plans for it. I'd think there is a camera on every table.



And you think they have PTZ cameras that track motion and move with the motion to follow the people walking around on the floor? Also you think they have cameras in the makeshift poker room that covers ALL the angles????

Remember you aren't looking at it live, THEN it would be very easy or if it had happened in the poker room then it would have been very easy to work.

Problem is this tournament is not played in an area where there are many cameras. If they had to install new cameras then they would in all probability only install one fixed camera shot per table.

That isn't good enough to follow anything unfortunately.

I agree with your assessment in a perfect world....Surveillance is far from perfect, I should know ;)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill

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