Fake chips in poker tournament
January 18th, 2014 at 4:21:41 PM
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The Borgota found a bunch of fake poker chips in a poker tournament
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-borgata-ends-fake-chip-173709430.html
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-borgata-ends-fake-chip-173709430.html
January 18th, 2014 at 4:27:08 PM
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I'm shocked, shocked to find that cheating is going on in here!
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
January 18th, 2014 at 4:29:51 PM
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I'm just shocked that someone would cheat like that. It seems like it would have to be discovered. How are they going to count chips at the end of the day and not realize that there are more chips in play than there should be?
January 18th, 2014 at 4:31:49 PM
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I wonder if they'll get caught. The man hours will be huge solving this mystery. makes sense to target suspicions to chip leaders.
I am a robot.
January 18th, 2014 at 4:39:05 PM
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Cheaters are notorious for being dumb. Bigger question is why it took so long before the house knew anything was wrong?
Tournament started on Tuesday with 4,000 entrants. Down to 27 and Friday before the house woke up !
Tournament started on Tuesday with 4,000 entrants. Down to 27 and Friday before the house woke up !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
January 18th, 2014 at 4:41:27 PM
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Prediction : Someone has to rat as that's the only way house will know who or how many in scam.
Further prediction : Not one of 27 still in will be named
Further prediction : Not one of 27 still in will be named
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
January 18th, 2014 at 5:13:01 PM
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Could make sense since it's possible the cheater is only good at cheating and not poker.Quote: BuzzardPrediction : Someone has to rat as that's the only way house will know who or how many in scam.
Further prediction : Not one of 27 still in will be named
I am a robot.
January 18th, 2014 at 5:16:27 PM
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This isn't just any tournament. This was the $2 million guarantee. 4800+ entrants.
How much would it suck to be one of the 27 who made it to the last 3 tables, were guaranteed 1000s in prizes, and then the tournament is suspended? I am surprised that didn't happen to me. I was going to play in that event, too, but I decided not to at the last minute.
The article says Borgata is going to use the same chips for the rest of the events the next two weeks. It would have been nice if they had backup chips with totally different designs they could have brought in.
By the way, every single hand of the tournament is at least supposed to be on camera. They could, in theory, keep track of everyone's chips and find the people who snuck in the extras.
How much would it suck to be one of the 27 who made it to the last 3 tables, were guaranteed 1000s in prizes, and then the tournament is suspended? I am surprised that didn't happen to me. I was going to play in that event, too, but I decided not to at the last minute.
The article says Borgata is going to use the same chips for the rest of the events the next two weeks. It would have been nice if they had backup chips with totally different designs they could have brought in.
By the way, every single hand of the tournament is at least supposed to be on camera. They could, in theory, keep track of everyone's chips and find the people who snuck in the extras.
January 18th, 2014 at 5:23:28 PM
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My guess is they were higher denom chips that got introduced after a certain amount of coloring up.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
January 18th, 2014 at 5:39:49 PM
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Quote: mickeycrimmMy guess is they were higher denom chips that got introduced after a certain amount of coloring up.
No they were T5000 chips which were issued from the start. Apparently more than 200 fake T5000 chips were found.
Here's a pic from twitter:
January 18th, 2014 at 6:03:02 PM
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Quote: sodawaterNo they were T5000 chips which were issued from the start. Apparently more than 200 fake T5000 chips were found.
But that's the higher denom I was referring to compared to $25, $100, $1000 chips. From what I've read it was a deep stack event. I don't know how much in chips each player started with. Maybe $20,000 at the most. So each player probably wouldn't have more than maybe two of those T5000 chips to start with. I think it would be rather obvious if someone slipped more T5000 chips into their stack at the start. During a table move would be a good time to slip chips into your stack.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
January 18th, 2014 at 6:18:04 PM
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Quote: mickeycrimmBut that's the higher denom I was referring to compared to $25, $100, $1000 chips. From what I've read it was a deep stack event. I don't know how much in chips each player started with. Maybe $20,000 at the most. So each player probably wouldn't have more than maybe two of those T5000 chips to start with. I think it would be rather obvious if someone slipped more T5000 chips into their stack at the start. During a table move would be a good time to slip chips into your stack.
Yes. Players started with T20,000 which included 2 t5000 chips. From reading the 2+2 thread, Borgata was using brand new grey T5000 chips in addition to their old and worn grey T5000 chips. The counterfeit chips look like spray-painted lower-denomination sticker chips. Really poor quality and probably was exploiting the fact that with 4800 runners, it was chaos in terms of supervision, staff, etc. Also the event was played in the ballroom upstairs where the cameras are a lot further from the tables than they are in the main poker room.
This is gonna be a shitshow.
January 18th, 2014 at 6:39:07 PM
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I'm heading down now- i can't evan imagine how poorly this will play out
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
January 18th, 2014 at 7:41:10 PM
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Ok, lets say they find 2 of the 27 players left were the culprits. Now What ?
I think play continues, all other players can either keep their payoffs or get a full refund if they did not cash ?
Casino has to provide an honest game PERIOD. They stood to win $187,720.
Can't wait to see how fairly this is handled !
I think play continues, all other players can either keep their payoffs or get a full refund if they did not cash ?
Casino has to provide an honest game PERIOD. They stood to win $187,720.
Can't wait to see how fairly this is handled !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
January 18th, 2014 at 8:08:44 PM
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I remember a story years ago in Bluff magazine about a player buying tourist chips in the gift shop at the Rio that were the same color as T chips, and bringing them into play in the late stages.
I've also heard stories of people who frequent a certain casino and play in their daily $50 tournament, who rat-hole high denom chips and bust out, only to introduce them in that casino's monthly (or semi-annual) tournament which uses the same chips. Mostly, those tournament chips are cheap with no colored inserts and are used in all tournaments regardless of buy-in. Cash games use multi-colored cheques, but Tchips are cheap plastic or clay, sometimes don't even have the casino's name on them or the denomination. Easy to do when the TD moves the player to another table.
I've also heard stories of people who frequent a certain casino and play in their daily $50 tournament, who rat-hole high denom chips and bust out, only to introduce them in that casino's monthly (or semi-annual) tournament which uses the same chips. Mostly, those tournament chips are cheap with no colored inserts and are used in all tournaments regardless of buy-in. Cash games use multi-colored cheques, but Tchips are cheap plastic or clay, sometimes don't even have the casino's name on them or the denomination. Easy to do when the TD moves the player to another table.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
January 18th, 2014 at 10:14:58 PM
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How do you get Tophat and Cane to make bogus chips for you? This seems like a big deal if TH&C is involved.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
January 18th, 2014 at 10:26:25 PM
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Quote: BuzzardOk, lets say they find 2 of the 27 players left were the culprits. Now What ?
I think play continues, all other players can either keep their payoffs or get a full refund if they did not cash ?
Casino has to provide an honest game PERIOD. They stood to win $187,720.
Can't wait to see how fairly this is handled !
the tournament is already canceled, they will not play it out.
there are lots of questions to be answered, but the 2 biggest are:
1. is borgata going to refund the 4800 buys ins + entry fees?
2. What are the final 27 going to get for their payouts? Spots 450-28 were already paid.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:26:57 PM
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Quote: s2dbakerHow do you get Tophat and Cane to make bogus chips for you? This seems like a big deal if TH&C is involved.
From the picture on Twitter, it looks like the counterfeit chips were just spray painted -- very poor quality work.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:27:56 PM
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Maybe they'll have to start keeping chip tallies after every hand with someone keeping score. Or print new labels on the chips each day with identifiers of whom they originally belonged to. Sounds like a mess but not unpreventable.
I am a robot.
January 19th, 2014 at 9:01:05 AM
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Although I am not aware of any fake chips ever being found or serious cheating discovered, the WSOP has discussed their chip tallies many times. They tally the count every night and it is never the same 2 nights in a row. Part of the error of course is they take the count written on the bags that were done by each player. Likely with thousands of bags that some of the counts are off on any given night. One other thing that happens which actually reduces the chip count is a player who's dream it has been to play the WSOP will rathole a souvenir chip. The race off of lower denominations also increases the count. All these things make it very hard to ever keep an exact count.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
January 21st, 2014 at 5:27:32 PM
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Apparently at the lower rung levels players simply "bag and tag" and self count their chips.
I would think all those self counts would be added up and someone would notice an overage but apparently not.
Of course there were undoubtedly advance logos displayed in the literature ... all they had to do is have chips for the brochures and chips for the real tournament. There might still be counterfeits but they would be hurried jobs for sure.
I think someone who has a chip making company with RFID capability will be sending a salesman to the Borgatta soon.
It seems things like this happened before and the known perpetrators still kept the money.
There has to be some time when Bag and Tag records at start of day and end of day differ from people who left tournament and their bags.
Strange.
I would think all those self counts would be added up and someone would notice an overage but apparently not.
Of course there were undoubtedly advance logos displayed in the literature ... all they had to do is have chips for the brochures and chips for the real tournament. There might still be counterfeits but they would be hurried jobs for sure.
I think someone who has a chip making company with RFID capability will be sending a salesman to the Borgatta soon.
It seems things like this happened before and the known perpetrators still kept the money.
There has to be some time when Bag and Tag records at start of day and end of day differ from people who left tournament and their bags.
Strange.
January 21st, 2014 at 5:52:54 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffI think someone who has a chip making company with RFID capability will be sending a salesman to the Borgatta soon.
On 2+2 they said RFID is totally cost-prohibitive, and possibly also impractical for poker tournament situations.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
January 21st, 2014 at 6:07:46 PM
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I would agree with gpac, no chance of RFID chips being introduced for non-value chips such as tournament chips when most casinos don't even want to put the RFID or EM technology into their value chips that gets used on the floor.
I would, however consider the following. After each days play each table has to remain seated and the dealers have th count down everybody's chip stacks before they are bagged. There will be some variances due to run-ups but nothing as drastic as what has happened at Borgata. Also a master list has to be created by the TD which allows for all figures to be captured into the computer and a database kept of each denomination and compare it to starting chip stacks. As long as all the info is entered into the PC at the beginning of play, they should have a relatively accurate picture at the end of the day.
It sounds like a lot of extra work especially in deep fields but there is already a dealer at each table. They get the master list and write down names, players club numbers and chip values........
Would add perhaps 15 or 20 minutes on at the end of the day!
Borgata is going to have a nightmare resolving this one. The people who got paid will disappear, the people who made the final 3 tables will sue, the others who got knocked out will want their money back......
Good luck and not a nice position to be in.
I would, however consider the following. After each days play each table has to remain seated and the dealers have th count down everybody's chip stacks before they are bagged. There will be some variances due to run-ups but nothing as drastic as what has happened at Borgata. Also a master list has to be created by the TD which allows for all figures to be captured into the computer and a database kept of each denomination and compare it to starting chip stacks. As long as all the info is entered into the PC at the beginning of play, they should have a relatively accurate picture at the end of the day.
It sounds like a lot of extra work especially in deep fields but there is already a dealer at each table. They get the master list and write down names, players club numbers and chip values........
Would add perhaps 15 or 20 minutes on at the end of the day!
Borgata is going to have a nightmare resolving this one. The people who got paid will disappear, the people who made the final 3 tables will sue, the others who got knocked out will want their money back......
Good luck and not a nice position to be in.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
January 21st, 2014 at 7:23:04 PM
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Seriously? give me some real big names of poker players you think are good and have never cheated. Then think about it for a while.Quote: onenickelmiracleCould make sense since it's possible the cheater is only good at cheating and not poker.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
January 21st, 2014 at 7:31:17 PM
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Man, you wanna see "cost-prohibitive" you just wait and see the next insurance premium increase for Borgata and the legal bills for their next six months, not to mention bad press.Quote: gpac1377On 2+2 they said RFID is totally cost-prohibitive, and possibly also impractical for poker tournament situations.
Poker rooms and poker tournaments may be considered "sidelines" to get real gamblers into this place but once they become points of vulnerability, things will change.
Its like swizzle sticks. No one, absolutely no one even knows how much they cost, but once one is used to get into a casino vault there will be a sudden interest in swizzle sticks.
January 21st, 2014 at 7:36:14 PM
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Finding out where and how the counterfeit chips were introduced is nowhere near as difficult as it appears. You have the point where they were discovered. You have the player they were found on. You have to work backward from there and track the 5K chips on the films. That the cameras are always on and always catch everything is a common casino fallacy. However, for a tournament of this magnitude, you would think there's a high probability every table was filmed. Additionally, the casino may have anticipated this and made sure the camera was running on every table.
January 21st, 2014 at 7:37:34 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffMan, you wanna see "cost-prohibitive" you just wait and see the next insurance premium increase for Borgata and the legal bills for their next six months, not to mention bad press.
Poker rooms and poker tournaments may be considered "sidelines" to get real gamblers into this place but once they become points of vulnerability, things will change.
Its like swizzle sticks. No one, absolutely no one even knows how much they cost, but once one is used to get into a casino vault there will be a sudden interest in swizzle sticks.
Fun post, Flea...swizzle sticks. I have a small collection of them I dearly love from over the years. Wonder which one doubles as the key to the vault? Hmmm...
EDIT: I could easily be wrong, but I don't think the Borgata's going to get hurt badly unless they screw up the aftermath. The perception is that there were cheaters, not that the casino was at fault. More like, "Borgata provides this great tourney and the beautiful venue, and some d-bags come and screw it up for everybody."
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
January 21st, 2014 at 7:45:35 PM
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Quote: anonimussFinding out where and how the counterfeit chips were introduced is nowhere near as difficult as it appears. You have the point where they were discovered. You have the player they were found on. You have to work backward from there and track the 5K chips on the films. That the cameras are always on and always catch everything is a common casino fallacy. However, for a tournament of this magnitude, you would think there's a high probability every table was filmed. Additionally, the casino may have anticipated this and made sure the camera was running on every table.
If the tournament was held in a concert hall or a conventio space (which it would have had to be) then there is every possibility that the footage will be a problem. In most cases there are multiple cameras watching one game but with a makeshift location there will more than likely only be one camera and for the most part the camera is fixed on the action and the stacks. It will be very hard to see someone remove something from their pockets and discreetly introude it to their stacks. What happens if the chips are also introduced when the person moves tables?
It can be done but it is going to require a LARGE amount of luck. Even if you find footage of the event it will have to be CLEAR otherwise you cannot gain a prosecution based on the footage.
Like I said earlier! Good luck to them, they are going to need it!!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
January 21st, 2014 at 8:31:34 PM
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Quote: TomspurWhat happens if the chips are also introduced when the person moves tables?
You're working backwards. You'd see him arrive at the new table with (X) 5K chips. Then you'd see him leave the previous table with (X-4) 5K chips. As far as cameras this was a major event. The casino knows cheating goes on and plans for it. I'd think there is a camera on every table. The cameras can read the serial number on a bill. They can follow 5K chips with no problem...if they were filming.
January 21st, 2014 at 8:37:01 PM
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Quote: anonimussYou're working backwards. You'd see him arrive at the new table with (X) 5K chips. Then you'd see him leave the previous table with (X-4) 5K chips. As far as cameras this was a major event. The casino knows cheating goes on and plans for it. I'd think there is a camera on every table.
And you think they have PTZ cameras that track motion and move with the motion to follow the people walking around on the floor? Also you think they have cameras in the makeshift poker room that covers ALL the angles????
Remember you aren't looking at it live, THEN it would be very easy or if it had happened in the poker room then it would have been very easy to work.
Problem is this tournament is not played in an area where there are many cameras. If they had to install new cameras then they would in all probability only install one fixed camera shot per table.
That isn't good enough to follow anything unfortunately.
I agree with your assessment in a perfect world....Surveillance is far from perfect, I should know ;)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
January 21st, 2014 at 8:44:10 PM
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I try.Quote: beachbumbabsFun post, Flea..;
Quote: beachbumbabsI could easily be wrong, but I don't think the Borgata's going to get hurt badly unless they screw up the aftermath. The perception is that there were cheaters, not that the casino was at fault. More like, "Borgata provides this great tourney and the beautiful venue, and some d-bags come and screw it up for everybody."
Quite frankly, I think you are correct. It will be a mere nuisance for the Borgata and none of their "regulars" will hold it against the casino that some mud-puddle types had dreams of becoming Oceans 11 and got lucky. However, I do think that as we slowly progress to world wide gambling that any vulnerability will get magnified. Even in Las Vegas shootings tend to occur "at a major casino" instead of the casino's name being used in the headlines. And most such shootings "appear to be isolated domestic incidents" in early press releases. Such damage control efforts will need to be employed particularly in incidents such as this wherein it appears there were insiders involved who knew cameras would be useless in a ballroom.
No one likes to be associated with any sort of vulnerabilities being exploited. Hotel room locks, computer systems of any sort, ... once weaknesses are shown to exist, other low lives emerge to take advantage of them. While the insurance company may not treble the premium, they just might provide a bit of encouragement to the Borgata to tighten up procedures. And no, it won't really involve swizzle sticks but there will have to be an atmosphere of constant vigilance.
January 21st, 2014 at 8:52:00 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffSuch damage control efforts will need to be employed particularly in incidents such as this wherein it appears there were insiders involved who knew cameras would be useless in a ballroom.
Maybe this is what the industry needs in order to understand that cheating, theft and scammers don't only concentrate on live games but these practices can be accomplished anywhere.......
The problem in the USA is that equipment is expensive and a lot of Surveillance departments are hamstring by budgetary constraints.
We don't have that issue in Asia, no sirreee bob!!!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
January 21st, 2014 at 8:57:41 PM
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Tournament was poorly run. Inexperienced dealers. No security of chips. Players hold chips while in buffet line. Most of the tables were in the ballroom. Cameras were few and 4 stories above the tables. 218 counterfeit 5K chips were entered into play. $1.08 million extra to the $96,280,000.
Several reports of a player complaining about counterfeit chips in play on day 2.
4 hour wait to get paid from those who cashed before tournament in cancelled.
Fairest way to handle it. Refund anyone who did not cash. Let final 27 continue to play.
My guess. No refunds and last 27 will chop up the remaining pool.
Borgota will keep the rake.
Several reports of a player complaining about counterfeit chips in play on day 2.
4 hour wait to get paid from those who cashed before tournament in cancelled.
Fairest way to handle it. Refund anyone who did not cash. Let final 27 continue to play.
My guess. No refunds and last 27 will chop up the remaining pool.
Borgota will keep the rake.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
January 21st, 2014 at 11:04:37 PM
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Quote: BuzzardTournament was poorly run. Inexperienced dealers. No security of chips.
... Several reports of a player complaining about counterfeit chips in play on day 2.
Why is the best place in town using a PokerRoom Manager who doesn't know what he is doing, doesn't have knowledgeable assistants, why the inexperienced dealers and lack of chip security?
But above all else why ignore that very first complaint.
I bet it turns out to have been management vacillating in what type of poker room they wanted: poker players or bonus-waiting choppers. If they count the memos from the mba types I bet its over fifty in the last six months.
January 21st, 2014 at 11:06:41 PM
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I would think not. Asians are too patient and will cheat at anything and expect it of each other.Quote: TomspurWe don't have that issue in Asia, no sirreee bob!!!
January 21st, 2014 at 11:19:10 PM
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Are you saying Asians are more likely to cheat then non Asians?Quote: FleaStiffI would think not. Asians are too patient and will cheat at anything and expect it of each other.
What if they drive gay sports cars?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
January 21st, 2014 at 11:59:18 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffI would think not. Asians are too patient and will cheat at anything and expect it of each other.
I'm not going to comment on whether Asians are more likely to cheat as I would want to see some empirical evidence one way or another.
What my statement was meant for was that we spend inordinate amounts of money on Surveillance equipment as well as data mining and analytical tools.
Same happens in Macau.
The big reason for this is because we have the money to spend because these places are making a crap ton of it. I would say this one casino takes in as much as 3 large Vegas casinos in one day!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
January 24th, 2014 at 3:30:10 PM
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Quote: BuzzardCheaters are notorious for being dumb.
OK OK I was wrong. This guy was not DUMB
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/clogged-pipe-brings-arrest-nj-fake-chip-case-21660062Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
January 24th, 2014 at 4:20:58 PM
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Quote: BuzzardQuote: BuzzardCheaters are notorious for being dumb.
OK OK I was wrong. This guy was not DUMB
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/clogged-pipe-brings-arrest-nj-fake-chip-case-21660062
How strong is that: ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. January 25, 2014 (AP)
I need this writer to buy my lottery tickets, hit the track with me and pick my stocks.
January 24th, 2014 at 8:45:27 PM
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Anyone that has seen (heard the chips click at least) or has a reliable and truthful source of "bathroom chip-passing" knows you don't even have to counterfeit chips. I've seen (heard) myself enough of that in the short time I played poker, and seen it close-down a poker room. Lets say it caused a real and palpable change in security, and the word got out on the double-quick.
I cannot name a "good, or semi-pro, or pro" poker player that NEVER cheated. I suspect many have, and many have not, but I can't prove that either way. Again, I have heard the bathroom chip pass (they click a little sometimes).
*** edit *** LOL I read the ABC-GO news article AFTER I posted, and thats not the way the bathroom pass is conducted. Flushing from Harrahs over to the Borgata, nope thats not the way. But the read was indeed enlightening. 800G's non value and the perp cashed $6800. Of course, now theres a 300G bail. Good luck with that. ***
I cannot name a "good, or semi-pro, or pro" poker player that NEVER cheated. I suspect many have, and many have not, but I can't prove that either way. Again, I have heard the bathroom chip pass (they click a little sometimes).
*** edit *** LOL I read the ABC-GO news article AFTER I posted, and thats not the way the bathroom pass is conducted. Flushing from Harrahs over to the Borgata, nope thats not the way. But the read was indeed enlightening. 800G's non value and the perp cashed $6800. Of course, now theres a 300G bail. Good luck with that. ***
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
January 24th, 2014 at 8:56:10 PM
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Have you been hacked by a Rush Limbaugh fanatic?Quote: FleaStiffI would think not. Asians are too patient and will cheat at anything and expect it of each other.
I am a robot.
January 24th, 2014 at 9:04:44 PM
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I don't think so, "If ya ain't cheatin' ya ain't tryin hard enuff." Tran gang anyone?
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
January 24th, 2014 at 9:09:06 PM
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Quote: 98ClubsI don't think so, "If ya ain't cheatin' ya ain't tryin hard enuff." Tran gang anyone?
Was in USAF with a Italian guy who swore his family crest translated to " Win if you can, Lose if you must, but always CHEAT "
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
January 24th, 2014 at 9:29:04 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffI would think not. Asians are too patient and will cheat at anything and expect it of each other.
It's a cultural thing, isn't it? Sort of a 6000 year old "caveat emptor" way of doing business or playing games. It's a challenge to everyone to try and cheat, to protest being cheated, to catch another cheating, and success in cheating is using every tool at your disposal to win, nothing more. People are admired for pulling one off on another person.
Our culture descends in that respect from the British idea of "sporting", I think. Look at the American Revolution, even the War of 1812; the British got decimated because the "honorable" way to do battle was to line up in bright red coats 3 deep and take turns firing over an open field. The Americans, out-numbered and out-gunned, "cheated" (if you look at contemporaneous reporting) by running and hiding in the woods, firing from behind trees, ambushes, guerilla tactics. (Not saying that was the entire story of the war, but illustrating the thinking.) Same thing with "dueling" for hundreds of years in Europe and the early years here. Honor meant showing up, standing there like an idiot, and letting someone shoot at you when even a wound was likely fatal. Didn't matter that you were shooting back; most would rather die than be thought cowards. We still incorporate a lot of those ideals in sports and games.
So, instead of admiring wily, clever moves, hidden agendas, secret hearts, deception of the enemy, as the Asians do in their society, we admire straightforward, open, truth no matter who it hurts (including and especially ourselves), honest games. Each society thinks the other is foolish. Each has a point.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
January 24th, 2014 at 9:43:17 PM
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What point do Irish travellers have ?
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/irish-traveller-to-die-behind-bars-after-one-scam-too-many-26286948.html
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/irish-traveller-to-die-behind-bars-after-one-scam-too-many-26286948.html
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
January 25th, 2014 at 12:20:49 AM
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Quote: beachbumbabsIt's a cultural thing, isn't it? Sort of a 6000 year old "caveat emptor" way of doing business or playing games. It's a challenge to everyone to try and cheat, to protest being cheated, to catch another cheating, and success in cheating is using every tool at your disposal to win, nothing more. People are admired for pulling one off on another person.
Our culture descends in that respect from the British idea of "sporting", I think. Look at the American Revolution, even the War of 1812; the British got decimated because the "honorable" way to do battle was to line up in bright red coats 3 deep and take turns firing over an open field. The Americans, out-numbered and out-gunned, "cheated" (if you look at contemporaneous reporting) by running and hiding in the woods, firing from behind trees, ambushes, guerilla tactics. (Not saying that was the entire story of the war, but illustrating the thinking.) Same thing with "dueling" for hundreds of years in Europe and the early years here. Honor meant showing up, standing there like an idiot, and letting someone shoot at you when even a wound was likely fatal. Didn't matter that you were shooting back; most would rather die than be thought cowards. We still incorporate a lot of those ideals in sports and games.
So, instead of admiring wily, clever moves, hidden agendas, secret hearts, deception of the enemy, as the Asians do in their society, we admire straightforward, open, truth no matter who it hurts (including and especially ourselves), honest games. Each society thinks the other is foolish. Each has a point.
+100... Lets expand that to other portions of the modern society, and social-networking, and "the internet structure" itself. Hacking becomes a back-handed compliment, wiithout it no one is testing the system. And the end-user has been and remains the weakest link.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
January 25th, 2014 at 1:43:11 AM
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The only thing I cheat are women, taxes, debts, tips, but never at gambling.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
January 25th, 2014 at 3:42:37 AM
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Quote:I would think not. Asians are too patient and will cheat at anything and expect it of each other.
When I said Asians I mean Asians. Particularly as exemplified in Macau. I did not and do not mean this to be some generic trait relating to those of Asian heritage. Mahjong rooms in the USA are safe.
What I was thinking of is that in China everything is subject to artificial manipulation.
Open up a store selling "X" and someone will show up with 80 people in tow and say sell us 80 units at such and such price right now. Buyers organizing together and being controlled is expected.
Look at how Asians handle Whales. Its not the American system of a Whale calls his host and says "I know Such and Such and have found him to always be a reliable businessman" whereinafter all contact and communication are between the Host and Such and Such as independent businessmen. In Asia whales are tightly organized and represented by a Whale Boss who negotiates directly with the Casinos and controls, arrival and departure of HIS whales.
One of these days we will be reading of Controlled Cheating at Roulette or something in Macau and the "comments" section in the Macau newspaper will be full of why didn't I detect that in the wheel and join in? Or a lazer will be found in a shoe showing the edge of a card before it is in view to the other players. Or something! The Asians know alot of the gambling money is corruption in China and the Asians know that the cheaters will be just like shoppers or whales or anything else in their society: there will be a Controller taking a Cut and the results of that card revealing shoe will be flashed around the room by five people before it gets to the player that benefits from it.
Please do not extend my remarks to the USA or to Vegas. Just look at how the Koreans have done. Everyone ELSE in Vegas had massive loans, Lee had just enough to keep a banker happy but all expansion was internally financed from profits not loans. True the casinos were not as fancy and did not cater to the wealthy but they were profitable. Mesquite is not The Strip but it made money! And Lee now owns a casino in a very "Tranny" area where the door is locked at six pm, but its a very profitable slot joint. And has prize winning cuisine.
So please.... limit my remarks to China and Macau.
And Now for Beachbumbags take on the comment:
>It's a cultural thing, isn't it? Sort of a 6000 year old "caveat emptor" way of doing business or playing games.
That may well be a fundamental aspect to it. I don't know. I have mentioned the Chinese Sardine Can example wherein the Chinese court ruled the mud filled sardine can should have been sold at a profit rather than opened. Its sort of a way of doing business in China.
>It's a challenge to everyone to try and cheat, to protest being cheated, to catch another cheating, and success in cheating
>is using every tool at your disposal to win, nothing more. People are admired for pulling one off on another person.
I don't know if its quite that strong, but there is certainly a Buyer Beware atmosphere. Look at the tourists in Thailand who die drinking cyanide laced cocktails or drinks made with insecticide. Its not considered morally wrong.
>Our culture descends in that respect from the British idea of "sporting", I think.
Even "sporting" had its strange definition. Look at the Air Rifle so liked by Thomas Jefferson. It was an unsportsmanlike and illegal abomination solely because it allowed a poacher to fire without leaving a revealing puff of smoke. The concept of sporting favored the ruling classes that owned the land.
> Look at the American Revolution, even the War of 1812;
Hah, You can go back further than that. The French and Indian Wars. George Washington was second in command of a column and implored to be allowed to fight in the Indian style "for we apprehend and honor his ways". The British officer leading the column thought an officer used his sword to keep soldiers standing upright in a straight line, Washington wanted to maneuver for effect and counter the ambush with stealth and tomohawks, not stiff lines of upright soldiers.
... (I so admire beachbumbabs's mind that I hate to use elipses to indicate omissions, but I must).
> The Americans, out-numbered and out-gunned, "cheated" (if you look at contemporaneous reporting)....
Yes. We took deliberate aim at officers. That was considered murder, not soldiering. The soldiers standing in the line were targets, but a man on a horse giving orders was clearly an officer and was not to be aimed at according to English customs and rules of war.
>... Same thing with "dueling" for hundreds of years in Europe and the early years here.
>Honor meant showing up, standing there like an idiot, and letting someone shoot at you when even a wound was likely fatal.
Yes, but don't confine yourself to English dueling pistols. The French were most famous for duels and would use swords.
And please do not think duels were limited to males. The leading French actress (and gambler) at one time was noted for having killed eight men in duels. Of course a duel was better than no justice at all.
> We still incorporate a lot of those ideals in sports and games.
Indeed. The very game itself, often.
>So, instead of admiring wily, clever moves, hidden agendas, secret hearts, deception of the enemy, as the Asians do in their
>society, we admire straightforward, open, truth no matter who it hurts (including and especially ourselves), honest games.
>Each society thinks the other is foolish. Each has a point.
Ah how true! Think of the Irish Travelers. Girls grow up to steal and to know how to use their bodies. Boys grow up to be big and strong and to fight without hesitation or fear. Nick names are used because its expected a woman will have had hundreds of arrests for shoplifting by the time she is thirty and men will have dozens of arrests for various business frauds or burglaries. It is a way of life.
January 25th, 2014 at 3:54:44 AM
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Ah, speak of the Irish Travelers... actually they are Gypsies from central India. Not Egypt, Not Ireland.
Criminals by training.
A girl will be given money on her ninth birthday and told to go spend it. Afterwards she will be told it was Gammon Golly (counterfeit) and be encouraged to continue passing counterfeit money. Children are distractors for store clerks. Girls grow up to be pickpockets and shoplifters. Notebook computers are for interfering with store merchandise alarms. Men blacktop driveways or do chimney repairs or are from Social Security to inspect your home.
Most Irish Travelers live in mansions and only work in the Spring when they throw eighty or a hundred grand into the kitty and drive pickup trucks to areas where the elderly live. Four months of work can bring in a quarter million for eachmember of a team.
Note: As an aside, five year old girls will be paraded in Neiman Marcus gowns ... for marriage proposals. Most Traveler marriages are arranged somewhere between birth and five years old. And consummated at 12 to 14 in some communities.
Criminals by training.
A girl will be given money on her ninth birthday and told to go spend it. Afterwards she will be told it was Gammon Golly (counterfeit) and be encouraged to continue passing counterfeit money. Children are distractors for store clerks. Girls grow up to be pickpockets and shoplifters. Notebook computers are for interfering with store merchandise alarms. Men blacktop driveways or do chimney repairs or are from Social Security to inspect your home.
Most Irish Travelers live in mansions and only work in the Spring when they throw eighty or a hundred grand into the kitty and drive pickup trucks to areas where the elderly live. Four months of work can bring in a quarter million for eachmember of a team.
Note: As an aside, five year old girls will be paraded in Neiman Marcus gowns ... for marriage proposals. Most Traveler marriages are arranged somewhere between birth and five years old. And consummated at 12 to 14 in some communities.
January 25th, 2014 at 7:10:29 AM
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It seems someone flushed chips at the old Marina casino and it didn't take long for the plumber's discovery to get relayed to the tournament director.
Why didn't the guy just check out with them in a suitcase and ditch the suitcase in the Marina or somewhere
Why didn't the guy just check out with them in a suitcase and ditch the suitcase in the Marina or somewhere
