Fake chips in poker tournament
Quote: FleaStiffIt seems someone flushed chips at the old Marina casino and it didn't take long for the plumber's discovery to get relayed to the tournament director.
Why didn't the guy just check out with them in a suitcase and ditch the suitcase in the Marina or somewhere
Because most cheaters are DUMB !
Quote: FleaStiffI don't know if its quite that strong, but there is certainly a Buyer Beware atmosphere. Look at the tourists in Thailand who die drinking cyanide laced cocktails or drinks made with insecticide. Its not considered morally wrong.
That sounds like it would be bad for business
Quote: FleaStiffAh, speak of the Irish Travelers... actually they are Gypsies from central India. Not Egypt, Not Ireland.
Criminals by training.
Irish Travelers are from...Ireland.
In Asia? Bad for business to lace drinks with insecticide for a 'buzz'? Just because an occasional English, American or Aussie tourist will make headlines and there will be a slight increase in the bribes that must be paid. Bad for business? Heck, without the insecticide there would be NO business selling the swill.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThat sounds like it would be bad for business
No. Irish Travelers, an illegal phrase in Ireland by the way, are from Central India and would be called Gypsies but for the branch of them that went to Ireland and took Irish names in one of their many migrations. The values and culture are not Irish only some of the language is Gaelic, most of it is simply Gypsies with Irish names.Quote: anonimussIrish Travelers are from...Ireland.
They may be lazy but I doubt dumb. After all, they come up with the ideas in the first place. The first man to give a hooker a five thousand dollar poker tournament chip got laid. The second man to do it got shaved.Quote: BuzzardBecause most cheaters are DUMB !
Not gonna quote because it got very lengthy, but really well annotated commentary on my thoughts. Thanks! Love that you're on here discussing random ideas with so much information and perspective. You add so much.
Upon reflection, was the next component of this master plan, smart or DUMB !
Quote: TomspurI'm not going to comment on whether Asians are more likely to cheat as I would want to see some empirical evidence one way or another.
What my statement was meant for was that we spend inordinate amounts of money on Surveillance equipment as well as data mining and analytical tools.
Same happens in Macau.
The big reason for this is because we have the money to spend because these places are making a crap ton of it. I would say this one casino takes in as much as 3 large Vegas casinos in one day!
Not knocking SK Casino surveillance at all, but any insight on the following story on how scammers got away with cheating at baccarat for so long? And how much jail time they received?
From 2012: "A three-year plot involving hidden cameras at card tables to help gamblers cheat a casino in South Korea has finally been discovered." http://intergameonline.com/casino/news/7100/casino-cheats-camera-scam-discovered-after-3-years
I don't think so. What happens will determine whether whether the casino really has any class or just a fancy reputation.
Several possible solutions have been posted at poker forums. Almost none think those who cashed will have to pay anything back. Be a real nightmare if that happens. Even I would not want that collection job.
There has been talk of chopping prize money according to chip stack or just 27 ways. Dumbest idea I have heard is to give all the non-cashers their entry fee back, including the last 27.
Think about that, 28th place get $7,000. 27th thru 1st get $560.
What do you think should be done? Please do not overlook the fact that the $60 per entry the casino kept is over a quarter of a million dollars ? Have seen similar situations in non legal poker games and tournaments and house always took it in the ass.
Wonder how Switch and Mr. Casino Games would have handled a situation like this on a smaller scale in a private club.
Or anybody else for that matter !
Quote: FleaStiffIn Asia? Bad for business to lace drinks with insecticide for a 'buzz'? Just because an occasional English, American or Aussie tourist will make headlines and there will be a slight increase in the bribes that must be paid. Bad for business? Heck, without the insecticide there would be NO business selling the swill.
I mean, killing your customers. The dead guy tends not to buy another round.
Yeah, but remember... some Western tourist who inconveniently dies will have gone to six or eight club/restaurants that night and also perhaps contacted it any of them. Then they usually make it back to the hotel where there is already a high concentration of deet and then they succumb.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI mean, killing your customers. The dead guy tends not to buy another round.
Quote: BuzzardAnybody heard what Borgata is going to do. I notice all reports say tournament is cancelled versus suspended ? Do the people who cashed get to keep the winnings ? Sure seems likely. Will people who did not cash, but paid several entry fees, will they get a refund ?
I don't think so. What happens will determine whether whether the casino really has any class or just a fancy reputation.
Several possible solutions have been posted at poker forums. Almost none think those who cashed will have to pay anything back. Be a real nightmare if that happens. Even I would not want that collection job.
There has been talk of chopping prize money according to chip stack or just 27 ways. Dumbest idea I have heard is to give all the non-cashers their entry fee back, including the last 27.
Think about that, 28th place get $7,000. 27th thru 1st get $560.
What do you think should be done? Please do not overlook the fact that the $60 per entry the casino kept is over a quarter of a million dollars ? Have seen similar situations in non legal poker games and tournaments and house always took it in the ass.
Wonder how Switch and Mr. Casino Games would have handled a situation like this on a smaller scale in a private club.
Or anybody else for that matter !
I'm assuming the clown was one of the 27 left in saying this, but anybody who finished behind him, including the last out who didn't cash, should get the difference in their placement, as if they came 1 spot highter. The other 26 should chop the pot. Nobody else is owed anything.
Quote: beachbumbabsI'm assuming the clown was one of the 27 left in saying this, but anybody who finished behind him, including the last out who didn't cash, should get the difference in their placement, as if they came 1 spot highter. The other 26 should chop the pot. Nobody else is owed anything.
I don't think that's sufficient.
You're basically just talking about disqualifying the guy who had the extra chips, but that's not enough. He didn't have an equal effect on everybody. People who played at his table may have busted when they shouldn't have. People who didn't may have been unaffected.
Certainly, anyone who didn't cash should get their buyin + fee back. Anyone who was paid keeps whatever they were paid, as well (unless they were part of the cheating) This will be expensive for the casino, but it is their responsibility to provide a fair game, and they didn't do so. The real question is what to do with the final 27. At the very least, they should get the same amount as the last person who cashed. Again, this will be expensive for the casino.
The most remarkable thing about this whole story is that the tool in question; who made up and used the fake chips, only got caught because he flushed all the unused ones down the toilet at Harrahs across the street, and clogged up his toilet. If he just takes the fakes with him and throws them in a random dumpster later, this whole episode probably goes unnoticed. Makes you wonder if this has been done before, and simply nobody noticed. I would say probably yes.
Quote: beachbumbabsI take your point, but that's an egg that can't be un-broken. Every hand he had, whether he folded or played it (and how) affected the tournament outcome in some way. I still think that, unless the Borgata actively screws this up, they're going to be fine. The free publicity they've gotten has a value; maybe they can re-program some advertising dollars. But something screwy is going on if the last cash was $7000 and they only have 1/10 or so per remaining player left. Is someone suggesting the 800K of fantasy money was ever part of the cash? Or did I miss a post explaining the disparity?
It can be unbroken -- they need to pay up.
This is completely their fault. This doesn't happen with cash games because they are on the hook for that, so they take care to ensure that their chips can't be easily counterfeited. The fact that their don't take the same level of care with a poker tournament chips (because it's the players' money, not theirs) is extreme negligence, and they should have to pay for it.
Quote: EdgeLookerNot knocking SK Casino surveillance at all, but any insight on the following story on how scammers got away with cheating at baccarat for so long? And how much jail time they received?
From 2012: "A three-year plot involving hidden cameras at card tables to help gamblers cheat a casino in South Korea has finally been discovered." http://intergameonline.com/casino/news/7100/casino-cheats-camera-scam-discovered-after-3-years
It was before myt ime and partly why I was brought on board. It was an inside job and the cameras were installed and kept by the technicians who serviced the table games on a daily basis. It would be incredibly hard to pick up unless you get tipped off or you have some sort of radio frequency devices around the casino that pick up signals.
We have taken some very drastic steps ever since I arrived which included Angel Eye shoes for all the hand dealt games, a $20 million USD Surveillance upgrade as well as extensive staff training and development. We are now running 392 days without a major incident for which I have been here for 385 of those days.
There are always people looking to take risks especially when large amounts of money is involved. They better come with more than shoe cameras now is all I can say :)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIt can be unbroken -- they need to pay up.
This is completely their fault. This doesn't happen with cash games because they are on the hook for that, so they take care to ensure that their chips can't be easily counterfeited. The fact that their don't take the same level of care with a poker tournament chips (because it's the players' money, not theirs) is extreme negligence, and they should have to pay for it.
I think they were negligent yes on several levels especially with the running of their tournament on a daily basis. There was no cash up, no balancing of tournament chips, nothing. If they had done even a little bit of data collection this thing would never have gotten out of hand and stopped before anybody cashed.
I hear through the grapevine that the only reason they actually cottoned on to the scam was because they received an "anonymous call" from Harrah's telling them to be on the lookout for the chips.
I don't know how true this is though.......
Quote: FleaStiffA take down team hired by the casino manager tried to switch -in their own shoe at Blackjack and darn near made it but for a sharp eyed security guard who saw a slim trim young lady one night and a very, very pregnant young lady the very next night and figured something was wrong. When they tried the actual switch, the Pit Boss caught the last of the motions too. So it never worked but you have to admit it would be a great thing to be able to do.
Those types of things were possible in the old days with those horrible plastic perspex shoes which they still use all over the US.
If the guys in charge bothered to spend just a little money they could get Angel Eye shoes which, I dare, say would be very tough to switch out. Also they are a vertitable fountain of data which can be downloaded with a touch of a button!
they just say tough shit ! We are gonna keep our quarter million dollars. If that cheater busted you out, go sue him. We are only here
to collect money. Security and cheaters are your problems, not ours. Now go away before we call security.
The cheater was the first day leader. Do anybody count his chips ? Did they not notice the cheap imitations? And they are numerous
posts on poker forum about the minimum wage dealers they provided. Many times players had to help them declare the winning hand.
Why should a casino be different from other business. You sold a defective product, now make it good. And why not let the tournament continue, instead of cancelling it. Refund anybody who did not cash, let the tourney continue.
Any private club I ever played in would do that and just eat it. Actually Harry's card game in back of pool room in late 50's wound up with every player at the stud table being winners. Yes all 8 guys were winning at a 10/20 stud game. And since Harry could not prove otherwise it cost him over $5,000.
This is an opportunity for a supposedly high class casino to show some class. But I bet they will NOT !
I feel for the big stacks left. Battle for days, looking for that big payday in this $2,000,000 total payout. And the casino says, sorry,
but come back and give us your money another day. Here's a breakfast buffet comp.
It's been a week already DUH And who's got the money ? What are they waiting for ? ? ? ?
I read that at least one of the 27 players had re-bought several times. So now the casino has over $2,000 of his entry money.
The longer this goes on, the more unfair it is !
Quote: BuzzardAnybody got an update ?
2+2 has 128 PAGES of "update" in just one thread...kind of interesting. Otherwise, no.
to pony up.
Quote: TomspurWe have taken some very drastic steps ever since I arrived which included Angel Eye shoes for all the hand dealt games, a $20 million USD Surveillance upgrade as well as extensive staff training and development. We are now running 392 days without a major incident for which I have been here for 385 of those days.:)
Now I know how the baccarat results magically appear on the LCD screen next to the dealer, :). Thought it kind of odd that the Angel Eye company is from a country with no casinos, - Japan! Now wonder they all come over here to play, :)
I thought by now Mission would have found out what the casino plans to do. I have never set foot inside that poker room, but have no doubt that it is like so many others. Always a handful of players who have management's ear. This may be why no decision has yet been announced.
Not like it's that big a decision. Fairly certain those who got knocked out won't even get a breakfast buffet comp. POSITIVE those that
cashed will keep their winnings. Only 3 real choices about the remaining 27 players
1.Chop the money equally... 2. Chop it up per chip percentages ... 3. Let them play it out
3 is off the board for too many reasons to enumerate. 2 is the next best choice 1 is a slap in the face to the remaining 27 players.
But #4 is what a weasel outfit will do. And this delay makes me think it is a possibility.
Delaying a decision until after the next gaming commission meeting, dropping it in their lap, so afterward they can say " Gee, we wanted to do the right thing, no matter how much money it cost us, but Gaming has tied our hands "
But only after making sure Gaming's decision would let them keep the $250,000 + Rake.
Quote: BuzzardSurely no 2 people could be this stupid.
If only you were right...
How about we refund everybody that got knocked out because the casino was paid $250,000 plus to run this tournament? Then chop up the prize pool among the 27 players according to chip stacks. Nothing in the statutes prevents the casino from doing this.
Nobody did not get a card. This whole fiasco was because the casino did little to protect counterfeit chips from entering the
tournament.
And if everything is so clear cut, why has nothing happened. I mean play was suspended 12 days ago. Some players had several re-buys and the casino still has their $2,000 plus.
I mean it's been 12 days already !
And idea why it's 12 days already. And what if a player took his winnings and lost them in another tournament in that casino ?
It's a total screw-up. This is supposed to be a classy casino. So far
they have acted like scumbags.
I'm not defending this guy, Hes a bad man. You don't know how stupid he was. With that many chips I bet others were involved. His Job may have been to dump chips to to others and then take the fake chips out. With 800k chips I have to believe this is the case. We will never know 100%. We have no clue how long this guy has been doing this and getting away with it.Quote: BuzzardI think he acted alone. Surely no 2 people could be this stupid.
I thought by now Mission would have found out what the casino plans to do. I have never set foot inside that poker room, but have no doubt that it is like so many others. Always a handful of players who have management's ear. This may be why no decision has yet been announced.
Not like it's that big a decision. Fairly certain those who got knocked out won't even get a breakfast buffet comp. POSITIVE those that
cashed will keep their winnings. Only 3 real choices about the remaining 27 players
1.Chop the money equally... 2. Chop it up per chip percentages ... 3. Let them play it out
3 is off the board for too many reasons to enumerate. 2 is the next best choice 1 is a slap in the face to the remaining 27 players.
But #4 is what a weasel outfit will do. And this delay makes me think it is a possibility.
Delaying a decision until after the next gaming commission meeting, dropping it in their lap, so afterward they can say " Gee, we wanted to do the right thing, no matter how much money it cost us, but Gaming has tied our hands "
But only after making sure Gaming's decision would let them keep the $250,000 + Rake.
Any idea why the casino has not made a decision yet. I mean we know he was dumb, but somebody in management should do SOMETHING !
Lots of suits making 6 or 7 figures and nobody has the balls to do anything ?
They cant make a decision until they know if others are involvedQuote: Buzzard12 days. I mean, any joint I ever played in would have straightened this out. Only delay would have been going to the bank to get cash if need be. They are treating the players like chumps.
Lots of suits making 6 or 7 figures and nobody has the balls to do anything ?
If there is a reg covering this, they would have acted by now. If no reg they can do almost anything. Poker players are chumps anyway and will continue to play there. I mean side bets in BJ are suckers bets. But you don't have to play them. Win a pot in a poker game, and the house will take $2 for a bad beat jackpot, a terrible sucker bet !
I
Quote: BuzzardWho knows what an idiot is thinking ? He has no record of winning in other tournaments. Surely with a team of players, one would have thought flushing the chips down the toilet was DUMB!
Looking him up on herndonmob it shows he has 2 cashes in AC:
16-Jan-2009 Borgata Winter Open, Atlantic City $750 + 60 No Limit Hold'em 28th $ 1,556
09-Dec-2008 WSOP Circuit - Harrah's Atlantic City, Atlantic City $300 + 40 No Limit Hold'em 2nd $ 29,189
Obviously, being arrested in October 2008 for running an illegal poker house didn't stop him from going to AC.
