[A] Casinoboss Answers Your Questions

Quote: odiousgambit

Are state-run casinos, like PA say, unable to say the same thing?

State regulated, not state run. You could file a complaint with them and they could make a ruling.

You ban them completely, or just refuse to continue to honor special requests?

Either but I was referring to banning them completely.

Quote: casinoboss

We call it "backing off" players. I've personally done it once.

It's generally not because you get suspicious of cheating but it's because we just don't want to take your action. For example, you come in and ask us to raise our dice limits and we do then you clean our clocks a few times we might consider backing you off because it's causing us too much heartache.

Sounds like you're afraid of someone winning a little? Why would a couple of losing sessions cause you heartache? If the player has beaten the odds a few times playing the game fairly what's wrong with that?

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Sounds like you're afraid of someone winning a little? Why would a couple of losing sessions cause you heartache?

Some casinos are terrified of winners. I've said here
before that I won $400 in 20min at a Vegas casino
a few years ago and was asked to leave. It was BJ
and I'm sure they thought something was up, but
20min? I wasn't even raising my bet, I was flat betting.

Quote: Zcore13

Sounds like you're afraid of someone winning a little? Why would a couple of losing sessions cause you heartache? If the player has beaten the odds a few times playing the game fairly what's wrong with that?

ZCore13

When he responded, I assumed it was a very big player beating them a handful of times in a row. And maybe even taking action that was a little too high for them to cover swings without even blinking an eye.

Generally speaking, I definitely agree with you. The thought of casino personnel possibly getting upset over significant player runs definitely upsets me. It's supposed to happen sometimes! I'd think that some of the more important goals would be: keep the players happy and gambling, make sure they aren't cheating/employing so much AP to cost you a bundle, and let volume take its course.

Quote: tringlomane

Generally speaking, I definitely agree with you. The thought of casino personnel possibly getting upset over significant player runs definitely upsets me. It's supposed to happen sometimes! .

It always cracked me up on the old Vegas TV
show that when somebody was winning a
large amount at whatever game, like $25K
or $40K or even over $100K, the James Caan
character always responded with 'So what?
People win sometimes.' He never got upset as
the head of the casino.

The writers wrote it that way because they had
casino consultants that told them to. In real life
the casino would be having a cow, but that show
was one big ad for Vegas, so they wanted to
perpetuate the myth that all legit winners are
welcome with open arms.

"Casinos are people, my friend," with bankrolls. Not everyone gets to be Big Ed.

Quote: 24Bingo

"Casinos are people, my friend," with bankrolls. Not everyone gets to be Big Ed.

Big Ed, that was a joke too. James Caan is very short,
about 5' 6" tall. He does have a black belt in karate
and has been a police martial arts instructor in LA
for decades. But big he ain't. He's shorter than everybody
on that show, even the women.

Quote: EvenBob

Big Ed, that was a joke too. James Caan is very short,
about 5' 6" tall.

IMDB isn't that mean to "Jonathan E.". They have him at 5'9" and a quarter.

Quote: Zcore13

Sounds like you're afraid of someone winning a little? Why would a couple of losing sessions cause you heartache? If the player has beaten the odds a few times playing the game fairly what's wrong with that?

ZCore13

I'm talking about players who could put the entire house in the negative for the day.

Quote: EvenBob

It always cracked me up on the old Vegas TV
show that when somebody was winning a
large amount at whatever game, like $25K
or $40K or even over $100K, the James Caan
character always responded with 'So what?
People win sometimes.' He never got upset as
the head of the casino.

The writers wrote it that way because they had
casino consultants that told them to. In real life
the casino would be having a cow, but that show
was one big ad for Vegas, so they wanted to
perpetuate the myth that all legit winners are
welcome with open arms.

It was different "back in the day".

Quote: tringlomane

IMDB isn't that mean to "Jonathan E.". They have him at 5'9" and a quarter.

Meaningless. You have to rely on what you see
and eyewitness reports. There's a guy who met
Caan in the airport. The guys wife was 5 4 and he
said Caan was at the most 2" taller than her. Sinatra
was always listed as inches taller than he was, in
his stocking feet he was barely over 5 6. With the
lifts in his shoes he was almost 5 9.

Quote: EvenBob

Big Ed, that was a joke too. James Caan is very short,
about 5' 6" tall. He does have a black belt in karate
and has been a police martial arts instructor in LA
for decades. But big he ain't. He's shorter than everybody
on that show, even the women.

Yea, but the women were hott on that show.

Quote: Boz

Yea, but the women were hott on that show.

does Mrs. Boz know?

Quote: Boz

Yea, but the women were hott on that show.

They were but I draw the line with the 90 pound Lara Flynn Boyle. Someone get her to the buffet---pronto!

Quote:

Yea, but the women were hott on that show.

Quote: 1BB

They were but I draw the line with the 90 pound Lara Flynn Boyle. Someone get her to the buffet---pronto!

Shades of Sweeny Todd!

Quote: 1BB

They were but I draw the line with the 90 pound Lara Flynn Boyle. Someone get her to the buffet---pronto!

I dunno...

That was her 10 years ago, here she is today. She
made it to the buffet, apparently.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Without make-up and camera tricks.

Still had to have some buffets though, or stopped doing bulimia. What a transformation.

Quote: tringlomane

Still had to have some buffets though, or stopped doing bulimia. What a transformation.

Nothing wrong with a buffet or forty.

Boyle looks like she has a pretty small frame to start with. I think she can get by with less weight than others to start with. Don't see bones sticking through, (though may be touched up)

"Juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust a little outside." - Bob Euchre, Major League Talk about a sidebar....lol.

OK, this is for casino boss or anyone who really knows. On Paigow Poker, I have long wondered/suspected this: does the Shufflemaster machine read the hands dealt, correlate them to the chair number, and thus control payout percentage to some pre-determined amount? Seems like there's otherwise no reason for the dealer to enter the bonus payouts by chair into the little keypad on the side. Or, taking it to full paranoia; does it deal preset hands by reading/sorting/stacking the hands onto the wheel, then correlating them to the start number? Or is it truly a random deal and a separately random start number?

The first 10 years I played, it was hand-dealt and a dice cup was used to generate a start, which felt genuinely random. Then it evolved to where you can't find a hand-shuffled game any more, though at first they were still using the dice cup some places. I'm sure the game sped up greatly with the machine shuffle/deal (though there was a dealer at Biloxi Boomtown who could at least tie the machine) but there's so much going on under the hood of one of those machines, I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T have control of it. I wondered long before Ocean's Eleven came out (aware the movie is romantic fiction), and then the mechanic in that was re-programming a blackjack shuffler to stack the shoe, so it gave me some more food for thought.

I don't know that it would make a lot of difference in whether I played to have it confirmed, but I'd like to know because there's a strong implication that the deal is truly random, and if that's not correct, I'd like an idea what range the HE could be set to. Answers accepted in confidential PM if this is something that can't be answered in public.

Thanks!

Quote: EvenBob

That was her 10 years ago, here she is today. She
made it to the buffet, apparently.

Bob, are you sure that's not Susan Boyle?

Quote: beachbumbabs

"Juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust a little outside." - Bob Euchre, Major League Talk about a sidebar....lol.

OK, this is for casino boss or anyone who really knows. On Paigow Poker, I have long wondered/suspected this: does the Shufflemaster machine read the hands dealt, correlate them to the chair number, and thus control payout percentage to some pre-determined amount? Seems like there's otherwise no reason for the dealer to enter the bonus payouts by chair into the little keypad on the side. Or, taking it to full paranoia; does it deal preset hands by reading/sorting/stacking the hands onto the wheel, then correlating them to the start number? Or is it truly a random deal and a separately random start number?

The first 10 years I played, it was hand-dealt and a dice cup was used to generate a start, which felt genuinely random. Then it evolved to where you can't find a hand-shuffled game any more, though at first they were still using the dice cup some places. I'm sure the game sped up greatly with the machine shuffle/deal (though there was a dealer at Biloxi Boomtown who could at least tie the machine) but there's so much going on under the hood of one of those machines, I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T have control of it. I wondered long before Ocean's Eleven came out (aware the movie is romantic fiction), and then the mechanic in that was re-programming a blackjack shuffler to stack the shoe, so it gave me some more food for thought.

I don't know that it would make a lot of difference in whether I played to have it confirmed, but I'd like to know because there's a strong implication that the deal is truly random, and if that's not correct, I'd like an idea what range the HE could be set to. Answers accepted in confidential PM if this is something that can't be answered in public.

Thanks!

Shufflemaster is a multibillion dollar publicly traded company. For them to rig a game seems highly unlikely. The number of people that would need to be involved in such a conspiracy makes it even more unlikely. One disgruntled employee with this knowledge blows the whole scheme up....

Quote: SOOPOO

Shufflemaster is a multibillion dollar publicly traded company. For them to rig a game seems highly unlikely. The number of people that would need to be involved in such a conspiracy makes it even more unlikely. One disgruntled employee with this knowledge blows the whole scheme up....

Though a casino or a casino employee may well cheat every once in a while (because someone will always try to get farther ahead), there is no need for the casino business to condone cheating on their side of the bets--the "house advantage" keeps them from having to cheat to win. There will be some winners and some casinos will get beaten badly but, overall, that 1% or 2% "tax" collected on your bets adds up for them.

Some do suspect unregulated casinos (NA casinos, for example) of cheating and setting payouts extremely low because they often don't fall under the state's gaming regulations, but cheating, such as having the card shuffler arrange the cards to increase the house advantage, would not work in the long run for the reasons SOOPOO mentions.

Sometimes changes in the way the game is played seemingly change the results...but really it is just luck, variance, whatever...going the other way.

I hope it changes soon for you!!

Quote: SOOPOO

Shufflemaster is a multibillion dollar publicly traded company. For them to rig a game seems highly unlikely. The number of people that would need to be involved in such a conspiracy makes it even more unlikely. One disgruntled employee with this knowledge blows the whole scheme up....

Deja vu all over again! This argument sounds vaguely familiar....... biased dice!!!

Yes it does sound vaguely familiar but its also quite true.

Fly by night internet sites have no real investment in infrastructure and can open up in whatever vest pocket jurisdiction they want to.

Brick and Mortar casinos really do want to make their money in a legitimate manner simply because they can not pack up and go elsewhere. Sure some may sweat the money and some may have employees who are a bit absurd from time to time, but in general a brick and mortar place will be straight up. On the computerized game front, "too many cooks, spoil the opportunity to be a bagman".

Shady internet sites can also easily manipulate the decks. One of the reputable poker site had lots of information about their RNG algorithm, what alorithm they were using, how it was certified by some lab. Although, they did not claim it was cryptographically strong, but strong enough to shuffle a deck.

This might be a good read,"How We Learned to Cheat at Online Poker: A Study in Software Security"

http://www.cigital.com/papers/download/developer_gambling.php

BTW Cigital is the the leading software security and quality consulting firm in the world. They have certified RNG for Pokerstar.

Quote: EvenBob

You don't deal with me every day, you have no
Idea what I do in the casino. Nobody does. If they did
they'd be changing their underwear three times per
shift.

I am guessing that most dealers release the ball with approximately the same velocity each time and by tracking the release point and the resulting number over time you can probably predict at least the quadrant in which the ball will land when the ball is released. With a little practice you can have an advantage over the casino.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

I am guessing that most dealers release the ball with approximately the same velocity each time and by tracking the release point and the resulting number over time you can probably predict at least the quadrant in which the ball will land when the ball is released. With a little practice you can have an advantage over the casino.

That is an interesting and plausible theory.

Quote: Bhappy

That is an interesting and plausible theory.

But a croupier is not permitted to look at the wheel during or immediately prior to the release of the ball so he has no idea over what portion of the wheel he is starting his release.
A dealer has a designated spot on the layout he must visually focus on just prior to release of the ball... this is to prevent any such tracking of a most probable octet by the players.

And as for control over the ball.... they alternate heavy and light balls each spin... and they often have the ball head off the wheel and into the passing crowds so I doubt there is all that much control.

Quote: FleaStiff

But a croupier is not permitted to look at the wheel during or immediately prior to the release of the ball so he has no idea over what portion of the wheel he is starting his release.
A dealer has a designated spot on the layout he must visually focus on just prior to release of the ball... this is to prevent any such tracking of a most probable octet by the players.

If the theory has any merit, then who cares where/when he releases the ball. A Player can always look. He is talking about a quadrant (approximately 9 or 10 numbers?)

deleted

Didn't a team take The Ritz for a lot of money using cell phones and visual ballistics?

Quote: MrV

Didn't a team take The Ritz for a lot of money using cell phones and visual ballistics?

I'll be more than happy to meet with you and discuss that incident. If you keep buying the beers, I will agree that it did indeed happen. If you also supply the companionship of some amiable young ladies of a certain profession commonly found around casinos, I will even agree that they made a whole ton of money.

Quote: beachbumbabs

"OK, this is for casino boss or anyone who really knows. On Paigow Poker, I have long wondered/suspected this: does the Shufflemaster machine read the hands dealt, correlate them to the chair number, and thus control payout percentage to some pre-determined amount? Seems like there's otherwise no reason for the dealer to enter the bonus payouts by chair into the little keypad on the side. Or, taking it to full paranoia; does it deal preset hands by reading/sorting/stacking the hands onto the wheel, then correlating them to the start number? Or is it truly a random deal and a separately random start number?

There was a long, old thread on this specific topic, the Shufflemaster I-deal shuffler.
- no, they do not sort or ever arrange cards in normal play mode. They can sort a deck into order to verify a deck as a special "not during play" function. Also, when in this mode, the machine flashes its lights (LEDs) as a flag that it is in this mode. We (at Fiesta Henderson when I worked there) used to sort finished, played-out decks on their way to be sold at the gift shop as part of the deck canceling process.
- Yes, they do read the hands on the way out to the players after an honest shuffle (and they're all legit shuffles), to know what each hand is to verify awards, recommend hand settings using the house way, and to detect added or missing cards, which can gaffe a deck. This is similar to slot machines, which also know the cards in play, and which people trust.
- The "hand knowledge/verification" feature is disrupted by player banking, dragon hands, and using dice to assign the first player position.
- The "hand knowledge features" such as showing a recommended hand setting for a position, etc., used to creep out some distrustful players ("it knows my hand!!"), so these features are generally not used. It is enough that in its basic mode of dispensing correctly-sized card packets, it speeds up and conveniences play.

Quote: Paigowdan

There was a long, old thread on this specific topic, the Shufflemaster I-deal shuffler.
- no, they do not sort or ever arrange cards in normal play mode. They can sort a deck into order to verify a deck as a special "not during play" function. Also, when in this mode, the machine flashes its lights (LEDs) as a flag that it is in this mode. We (at Fiesta Henderson when I worked there) used to sort finished, played-out decks on their way to be sold at the gift shop as part of the deck canceling process.
- Yes, they do read the hands on the way out to the players after an honest shuffle (and they're all legit shuffles), to know what each hand is to verify awards, recommend hand settings using the house way, and to detect added or missing cards, which can gaffe a deck. This is similar to slot machines, which also know the cards in play, and which people trust.
- The "hand knowledge/verification" feature is disrupted by player banking, dragon hands, and using dice to assign the first player position.
- The "hand knowledge features" such as showing a recommended hand setting for a position, etc., used to creep out some distrustful players ("it knows my hand!!"), so these features are generally not used. It is enough that in its basic mode of dispensing correctly-sized card packets, it speeds up and conveniences play.

Thank you SO much for this information! So, reading back: The I-deal is theoretically capable of sorting hands but is not used/programmed to do that in play mode. In sort mode, it is only programmed to sort into standard suit sort, and the machine alerts visually when it is in this mode. The I-deal does correlate the hand number to the hand, but for recommendation and verification, NOT for placement of dealer's assigned hand and relative strength on the table (though again theoretically, if it has the correlation and reading capabilities, it's a short step to assigning the dealer hand; as a beginning Java programmer, I could write a subroutine in 3 lines that would do it). The keyboard on the side is validating the bonus awards were recognized properly by comparing the bonus hand payout to the readout.

You say it reads the hands AFTER an honest shuffle, implying but not saying that the hand number allocation is without bias for value; are you counting the hand number selection as part of the honest shuffle (as in, 2 RNG transactions that are subsequently linked), or specifically not saying one way or the other? Is the intent of the keyboard entry routine to avoid incorrect bonus recognition in either direction, audit dealers for collusion on overpays, auto-alert security to begin auditing the table tapes on a big payout, help balance the table rack, correlate big pays by chair to the player's info on the card tracking software, more than one of those? Does the machine alert right then if an incorrect entry is made in either direction, say a SF actual using a joker is incorrectly read as a flush and underpaid, or the reverse, so the correction can be made at the table?

I am guessing that most states require a guarantee of random deals, backed up by periodic and/or random audits of the machines, before they will certify the game for play. Would that be a correct assumption? Makes me wonder if the Indian casinos, on federal land, are under the same type of regulation and scrutiny (in Florida, all we have are casinos on Indian lands, though that's changing).

Thanks again for the excellent insight into this. I will look up the old thread as well; considering the 100's of thousands of dollars I've exposed playing this game for 20 years, I really would like to have the best possible understanding of the mechanisms.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: Paigowdan

There was a long, old thread on this specific topic, the Shufflemaster I-deal shuffler.
- no, they do not sort or ever arrange cards in normal play mode. They can sort a deck into order to verify a deck as a special "not during play" function. Also, when in this mode, the machine flashes its lights (LEDs) as a flag that it is in this mode. We (at Fiesta Henderson when I worked there) used to sort finished, played-out decks on their way to be sold at the gift shop as part of the deck canceling process.
- Yes, they do read the hands on the way out to the players after an honest shuffle (and they're all legit shuffles), to know what each hand is to verify awards, recommend hand settings using the house way, and to detect added or missing cards, which can gaffe a deck. This is similar to slot machines, which also know the cards in play, and which people trust.
- The "hand knowledge/verification" feature is disrupted by player banking, dragon hands, and using dice to assign the first player position.
- The "hand knowledge features" such as showing a recommended hand setting for a position, etc., used to creep out some distrustful players ("it knows my hand!!"), so these features are generally not used. It is enough that in its basic mode of dispensing correctly-sized card packets, it speeds up and conveniences play.

Thank you SO much for this information! So, reading back: The I-deal is theoretically capable of sorting hands but is not used/programmed to do that in play mode. In sort mode, it is only programmed to sort into standard suit sort, and the machine alerts visually when it is in this mode. The I-deal does correlate the hand number to the hand, but for recommendation and verification, NOT for placement of dealer's assigned hand and relative strength on the table (though again theoretically, if it has the correlation and reading capabilities, it's a short step to assigning the dealer hand; as a beginning Java programmer, I could write a subroutine in 3 lines that would do it). The keyboard on the side is validating the bonus awards were recognized properly by comparing the bonus hand payout to the readout.

You say it reads the hands AFTER an honest shuffle, implying but not saying that the hand number allocation is without bias for value; are you counting the hand number selection as part of the honest shuffle (as in, 2 RNG transactions that are subsequently linked), or specifically not saying one way or the other? Is the intent of the keyboard entry routine to avoid incorrect bonus recognition in either direction, audit dealers for collusion on overpays, auto-alert security to begin auditing the table tapes on a big payout, help balance the table rack, correlate big pays by chair to the player's info on the card tracking software, more than one of those? Does the machine alert right then if an incorrect entry is made in either direction, say a SF actual using a joker is incorrectly read as a flush and underpaid, or the reverse, so the correction can be made at the table?

I am guessing that most states require a guarantee of random deals, backed up by periodic and/or random audits of the machines, before they will certify the game for play. Would that be a correct assumption? Makes me wonder if the Indian casinos, on federal land, are under the same type of regulation and scrutiny (in Florida, all we have are casinos on Indian lands, though that's changing).

Thanks again for the excellent insight into this. I will look up the old thread as well; considering the 100's of thousands of dollars I've exposed playing this game for 20 years, I really would like to have the best possible understanding of the mechanisms.

Paigowdan; looks like you went through the same thought process 3 years ago: Paigow Shufflers

Chasing down others as well. Great discussion for me; answers a lot of questions I haven't known where to ask.

(edit) adding this from Paigowdan, 7 months after the above linked thread, where he answers several questions above:

Quote: Paigowdan

Some are quite aware of this.
The system in use is Shufflemaster Inc.'s "I-deal" system, and it is used on their Fortune Pai Gow product.

Yes, it is true, the table system knows what each player's hand packet is, and also uses a random number generator to determine the start position of the deal, essentially knowing what every position player - including the dealer - has. This is how it knows how to set each position hand to the house way, if a player asks. It also instructs the dealer how to set is hand to the approved house way. This is also why player banking or the dragon hand aren't allowed, - because it disorientates the table computer system has to which position is holding what cards for this hand-setting assist.

However, there is some pushback on the system, namely:
1. Many players become annoyed or infuriated when they see their hand being known pre-deal, then displayed by the table computer system upon a hand setting recommendation. Seeing the cards that we are holding in our hand displayed on the system when asked makes us say, "the Table computer KNEW my cards going INTO the deal - and is displaying it now! Huh??!!"

2. If, - in a very rare and unlikely scenario, the table software is "gaffed" or illegally modified, the modified computer code could possibly instruct the system to ship a bonus hand of a Four of a kind or better to the dealer's position - or to a specific player's position. ["Where's the USB port on this thing?!"] Please note that the system does not "Arrange" hands, as it really shuffles legitimately within the shuffler, it's just that the system knows the composition of each hand after the internal shuffle is done, and after the random number generator determines the deal, and so does NOT say "who gets what hand." In defense of this system, also note that the random number generator is disconnected from the database result of the deck shuffle, so that the random number generates the starting position of the deal without knowledge or interest in a random fashion, THEN later is instructed of "who has what," so that it can assist in hand setting, if needed. This is very much like a Video Poker machine or slot machine, where the results are known by the system [as the hand is already determined before it is played out by the player(s)], - but is allowed to happen in a fair and random fashion, - and is only tracked to assist hand-setting, and to prevent the introduction of "mucked cards" into play through after-the-fact verification.

3. Players frequently feel uncomfortable playing a live card game where the play results were actually pre-known and resolved by the system before the play of the hand itself - but after (and not known by the database) until after the random number generator and a random shuffle is completed. The random number generator gives both a random "start deal position" - as well as a random shuffle itself, and so are not influenced. The system doesn't know and doesn't influence anything, but tracks the full deal only after the random shuffle and the random starting position, - and after deal has begun, - exactly the same way as on all slot and VP machines, but on a table game. That's all it is about these machines.

4. Still, many Pai Gow players insist on playing at tables where physical dice are used to determine the start position, and some casinos use this way on this request. In these cases, there is no display console on the table, and a dice shaker determines the random start position, or the display is covered, and a dice shaker is used.

5. The I-deal system has been examined for fair play usage by Nevada Gaming and other gaming jurisdictions, just as the slot machine systems are verified. If you know and trust slot or VP play, you should by all means have confidence in the I-deal system. You should also have trust in it if you just play tables games also.

Quote: beachbumbabs

[So, reading back: The I-deal is theoretically capable of sorting hands but is not used/programmed to do that in play mode. In sort mode, it is only programmed to sort into standard suit sort, and the machine alerts visually when it is in this mode.

Correct.

Quote: beachbumbabs

The I-deal does correlate the hand number to the hand, but for recommendation and verification, NOT for placement of dealer's assigned hand and relative strength on the table (though again theoretically, if it has the correlation and reading capabilities, it's a short step to assigning the dealer hand; as a beginning Java programmer, I could write a subroutine in 3 lines that would do it). The keyboard on the side is validating the bonus awards were recognized properly by comparing the bonus hand payout to the readout.

The SHFL RNG is random and legit, and is linked to the I-deal. If NOT used (by using a dice shaker, player banking, etc.), the machine may not know what position has what hand.
There is a 3" x 5" touch screen (not a keyboard) in the back facing the pit area that can be prompted for game play and diagnostic info. It is beyond the capacities of most typical floormen.

Quote: beachbumbabs

You say it reads the hands AFTER an honest shuffle, implying but not saying that the hand number allocation is without bias for value; are you counting the hand number selection as part of the honest shuffle (as in, 2 RNG transactions that are subsequently linked), or specifically not saying one way or the other? Is the intent of the keyboard entry routine to avoid incorrect bonus recognition in either direction, audit dealers for collusion on overpays, auto-alert security to begin auditing the table tapes on a big payout, help balance the table rack, correlate big pays by chair to the player's info on the card tracking software, more than one of those? Does the machine alert right then if an incorrect entry is made in either direction, say a SF actual using a joker is incorrectly read as a flush and underpaid, or the reverse, so the correction can be made at the table?

I-deal doesn't audit game play (how much dealers pay out, or auto-alert surveillance, etc.) Many hands dealt may be dead hands with only one or two players on a game. The touch screen will display such things as a machine jam, missing card (saying "K clubs missing," etc.) or other problem, - or nothing at all but the starting position of the deal, if all okay. The I-deal machine does not run the game; it supplies problem info on a mishap, and supplies hand info when it is queried.

Play some Crazy Four poker or Three Card Poker to see the machine in action. Also, look across the pit to see the back of table machines on the other side. This will explain a lot.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I am guessing that most states require a guarantee of random deals, backed up by periodic and/or random audits of the machines, before they will certify the game for play. Would that be a correct assumption?

Almost. Gaming authorities in all jurisdictions require fair game stipulations. The machines are not frequently audited by gaming, but are maintained by SHFL technicians as part of the machine lease agreement with the operator.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Makes me wonder if the Indian casinos, on federal land, are under the same type of regulation and scrutiny (in Florida, all we have are casinos on Indian lands, though that's changing).

They are under less government scrutiny as more autonomous areas, which is why it is easier to get a game approved with a local tribe than in the State of New Jersey, let's say. Indian casinos are clean, and have governing bodies overseeing gaming operations.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Thanks again for the excellent insight into this. I will look up the old thread as well; considering the 100's of thousands of dollars I've exposed playing this game for 20 years, I really would like to have the best possible understanding of the mechanisms.

You're welcome! It is next to impossible to hack either an I-deal machine or a slot machine, unless you are Tommy Carmichael or Dennis Nikrasch or the like.
My advice is to not worry about a gaffed I-deal machine or slot machine, but to study the Richard Marcus site, or a more advanced casino cheating history site out of interest.

Quote: FleaStiff

But a croupier is not permitted to look at the wheel during or immediately prior to the release of the ball so he has no idea over what portion of the wheel he is starting his release.
A dealer has a designated spot on the layout he must visually focus on just prior to release of the ball... this is to prevent any such tracking of a most probable octet by the players.

The dealer has to look into the wheel to pick up the ball. The dealer knows where the ball release is. Determining how far the wheel will travel after picking up the ball before releasing it isn't rocket science.

Quote: FleaStiff

And as for control over the ball.... they alternate heavy and light balls each spin... and they often have the ball head off the wheel and into the passing crowds so I doubt there is all that much control.

That's very rare. In most casinos, they do NOT alternate the ball. It's more of a dealer preference, unless pit dictates it. Usually, the dealer leaves the ball in the number that hits, and the ball is not removed from the wheel in between spins.

What happened to casinoboss, no posts in more than
3 weeks. I see a bunch of unanswered questions here.

Quote: EvenBob

What happened to casinoboss, no posts in more than
3 weeks. .

Thinking up new ways to improve the house take while making people think they are winning.

In every casino I have been in (Macau, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand) the croupier leaves the ball on the wheel until the next spin is due.
Then they remove the ball, start the wheel spinning, and release the ball from a point approximate to the previous winning number.
Whether they have a designated point of release to ball in relation to the track, I am not sure, but I have always seen the ball released opposite the last winning number.
I have never seen a ball changed between spins, ever.

Quote: Pando

I have never seen a ball changed between spins, ever.

Balls are often changed when they change dealers.
Men with large hands have a hard time with the
smaller balls.

I'm surprised at this. It seems your experience is that a croupier is permitted to look at the wheel while releasing the ball, something that is simply not permitted in Las Vegas. Croupier focuses away from the wheel prior to release. Its in the procedures manual and the Pit Boss will be getting a phone call from surveillance if things are getting sloppy. Casinos do not really believe in this "muscle memory" stuff... they just don't want to take the chance.

This post has been cancelled.....I don't know what I'm doing :)

Quote: casinoboss

No real system except looking for something out of the ordinary. Once the rating gets put into the system the formulas for creating your direct mail offers and players club comps are pretty automated.

I believe that, depending on your action and also the "loudness" of your objections to certain ratings not being accurate the casino has another avenue. They can ask Surveillance to watch your play and compare that to the ratings that have been input into the system. Then, depending on how honest the casino and its various departments are they will adjust your comps accordingly. I must say that the casinos have a vested interest in being honest because if they are not and they get investigated by the gaming boards only to find that there has been shenanigans it could seriously hurt their credibility with the GB. That, normally is not a good thing.
All players have the ability to make a complaint with the GB's and based on case and agent workload they will try to establish what had happened.

So in my humble opinion it does not serve the casino not to be honest, they just have too damn much to lose on the back end.

Casinoboss.. I enjoy your comments. Here is a marketing question. I play in reno, and have a high ranking comp card in a casino. I live 4 hrs away in Ca and get many promotional offers for weekend stays, coupled with some sort of event ( slot tournament, enetertainment, superbowl etc).

I do own a home in the area and dont need the free room.(although sometimes we stay to pamper ourselves).

Question: is it in my best interest to relay to someone that I have a home near reno and dont need the free room? Are there different sets of comps for locals? Am neccessarily getting better comps because the casino thinks I am an out of towner....If I tell them I live locally will comps dry up or lessen in value? Do out of towners get better comps?
thanks

Quote: AlanMendelson

What are the "rules" for dice throws at your casinos? Please be specific:

1. About setting
2. About height of throws
3. About hitting the back wall
4. How "tough" are you on enforcement of rules

Another craps question:

If the dice or a die comes to rest against a chip (not in the bank) and there is a "question" as to which face is showing, how do you determine the face that is called?

Thanks.

Alan I will try to answer your questions from the persepctive of a Vegas casino

1) Setting is allowed but the amount of time it takes should be controlled by the stick man. If someone stands over a pair of dice and sets them for anything longer than 10 seconds AFTER receiving the dice then perhaps he should get a little hurry up (subtly of course) by the stick.
2) Generally speaking the rule of thumb is no higher than the tub rim. This rule is a little more murky. If the dice travel a fair amount in the air and lands on the opposing side of the table but is thrown a little high then there should be some leeway (please see point 3 below as the two tie in)
3) The dice should ALWAYS hit the back wall, either on the fly or on the hop, I don't care. Again, the person rolling will be given the benefit of the doubt after one or perhaps even two short rolls. If the boxman feels that the back wall is not being hit on purpose then he can instruct a "no roll". This will be done by the stick (or base dealer on the correlating side) grabbing at least one of the die before they come to rest and the stick announcing "no roll". They will then again ask the player to comply. If the boxman feels that more investigation needs doing he will refer the matter, along with all pertinent player information to Surveillance who will then check databases, watch play ect. and respnd back to the pit with what they find. It is then up to the pit boss or casino shift manager to decide if the player should be "backed off" from the dice table (he cannot play dice but can play any other game on the property) or if he should be barred/banned/86'ed (not allowed to play any game at that property).
4) Unfortunately there are a lot of variables that come with making decisions regarding how strong to be with regards to rules for things such as short rolls on craps or height of rolls or length of time setting the dice. The casino will take into account if the player is a regular visitor, if he is a lifetime loser or winner and so on and so forth. Armed with all this info they will still request Surveillance to build a case one way or another. I believe that good customer service is paramount above all else (except for cheating, theft or scamming of course). Boxmen or experienced dealers should be able to discern between an AP or cheat or just someone who is either intoxicated or learning the game.

The rule of thumb with regards to a die coming to rest either on an angle on the table against a wall or against a chip is that, if we remove the wall or chip from the equation how will the dice fall after the removal. This is normally pretty accurate as the dice is leaning up against an object and will only be able to fall one certain way. The dice cannot hinge on one bladed side up in the air as if suspended. Well I shouldn't say "can't", I should rather say highly unlikely.

I hope I answered some of your questions but I suspect you already know most of these answers, you perhaps were simply looking for a diffrent opinion?

Thanks

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