[A] Casinoboss Answers Your Questions
Quote: casinobossYou got me.
I confess, I work at The Tangiers.
I figured you for the Montecito myself...
If a machine is just paying out tons of money, do you guys get an alert? For example, a virtual craps game that loses at the rate of 30k/hr, how long would it take someone to be aware of it and shut it down?
Does a high denomination ticket cashed in or out "ping" the system?
Are there any behaviors that will trigger a suspicious activity alert, like someone rapidly cashing in tens of tickets into the same machine, or cashing out and then cashing in again?
How easy is it to track the path that a ticket has taken?
Can you see the card associated with a play that generated a ticket, or what card was in the machine when a ticket was cashed out?
Any other thoughts about the limitations/advantages of TITO to detect people doing things they shouldn't be?
Quote: casinobossIf you're full-time and you actually work all of your shifts (i.e., don't leave early or call out) then in the $75-90 range.
Thanks for the reply, casinoboss.
Quote: rxwineIf casinobosses have conventions, where do casinobosses have their conventions?
Global Gaming Expo is the two ton gorilla in this space.
Quote: ClarkWGriswoldI figured you for the Montecito myself...
That's where I broke in.
Quote: casinobossThat's where I broke in.
wow.. i would have guess The Corinthian or Savoy. then move up to Seven Sins Casino and Resort
(or vice versa)
I only play e-Craps. i do $30k/month coin-in (including odds). i only get $20/wk in free slot play.
i'm up $2000 lifetime in the year i've been playing it.
yesterday i actually did $40k coin-in on that day alone. (lost a couple hundred)
will i get better marketing offers? if so, will it be for July? or since i upped my play so late in June, it'll be for Aug offers?
or since i'm a winning player, i'm lucky to even get $20/wk?
Quote: casinobossMarketing
Well, now I understand why you have to consult someone about the basic rules of craps games. By the way, several casino companies and casino-related companies in Vegas have hired me as a consultant for various marketing projects. Did I work for you once? (You can answer freely, because there have been several different casinos and companies.)
Quote: jwblueWhat are the odds of winning the Megabucks jackpot? I have read about the odds being about 1 in 50 million based on the number of stops on the reels, but I do not know how accurate that it is.
I thought that with "virtual reels" the number of graphics on the actual reels are meaningless for setting the odds????
Quote: 100xOddshere's a marketing question:
I only play e-Craps. i do $30k/month coin-in (including odds). i only get $20/wk in free slot play.
i'm up $2000 lifetime in the year i've been playing it.
yesterday i actually did $40k coin-in on that day alone. (lost a couple hundred)
will i get better marketing offers? if so, will it be for July? or since i upped my play so late in June, it'll be for Aug offers?
or since i'm a winning player, i'm lucky to even get $20/wk?
How much did your adt change?
Quote: AlanMendelsonWell, now I understand why you have to consult someone about the basic rules of craps games. By the way, several casino companies and casino-related companies in Vegas have hired me as a consultant for various marketing projects. Did I work for you once? (You can answer freely, because there have been several different casinos and companies.)
Congratulations on your consulting success.
Quote: tongniQuestions about TITO:
If a machine is just paying out tons of money, do you guys get an alert? For example, a virtual craps game that loses at the rate of 30k/hr, how long would it take someone to be aware of it and shut it down?
Does a high denomination ticket cashed in or out "ping" the system?
Are there any behaviors that will trigger a suspicious activity alert, like someone rapidly cashing in tens of tickets into the same machine, or cashing out and then cashing in again?
How easy is it to track the path that a ticket has taken?
Can you see the card associated with a play that generated a ticket, or what card was in the machine when a ticket was cashed out?
Any other thoughts about the limitations/advantages of TITO to detect people doing things they shouldn't be?
Tons of money but no taxables and we'd probably start getting curious the next morning when all of our daily reports start coming out and we notice the irregularities.
Can't help you with the rest. You'd need someone who's worked more recently in slots and finance to answer with the level of specificity you require.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI thought that with "virtual reels" the number of graphics on the actual reels are meaningless for setting the odds????
Pretty good thread on how slot math works
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/5005-published-par-sheet/
casinos look like? Will they be moving away from
live dealers and going all electronic in the next
10 years?
Heck, why don't they have public water fountains?
Quote: MrVWhy don't casinos in Las Vegas have self-serve soft drinks, coffee and water like the tribal joints in the Pac NW do?
Heck, why don't they have public water fountains?
We've addressed that here. They don't in Vegas
because of the street people. They fill up their
jugs and water bottles and wash themselves in
public water fountains. Not too many homeless
hanging around Indian casinos.
M casino had it for awhile, then yanked it.
Why?
Quote: casinobossHow much did your adt change?
Average Daily Theoretical.. hm.. i play once a week and get $20 free play per week.
3/4/5x odds = .37% house edge
so $7500 coin in per week vs 40k coin in for this week.
because of the low .37% HE, i guess my adt didnt change that much :(
Quote: tongniQuestions about TITO:
1 - If a machine is just paying out tons of money, do you guys get an alert? For example, a virtual craps game that loses at the rate of 30k/hr, how long would it take someone to be aware of it and shut it down?
2 - Does a high denomination ticket cashed in or out "ping" the system?
3 - Are there any behaviors that will trigger a suspicious activity alert, like someone rapidly cashing in tens of tickets into the same machine, or cashing out and then cashing in again?
4 - How easy is it to track the path that a ticket has taken?
5 - Can you see the card associated with a play that generated a ticket, or what card was in the machine when a ticket was cashed out?
I think I can take this one…
1 – Depends what you mean. If speaking generally, then yes, we’d get pinged anytime and every time a slot pays out over $5,000, as well as when any slot payout is overridden by the Slot dept. If you meant specifically from more of a prevention angle, like a notice given if pay outs are outside the statistical norm, then no. That's up to the auditors to pour over and figure out.
2 – If the payout is over $1,200, the machine locks up and won’t pay out without attendant attention. The only time I’ve seen a TITO print for more than $1,200 is when more than $1,200 was inserted by the patron, ie the machine printed his input plus small wins, not >$1,200 in wins. In this case, no notifications are given and the machine doesn’t lock up. Of course, we don't have ballers here that plunk >$10,000 at a time, so there's that.
3 – Nothing automated. Issues of this sort are for Surv, Audit and Floor workers to identify.
4 – Easier than typing this response.
5 – All that and more. Much, much more.
Quote: 100xOddsAverage Daily Theoretical.. hm.. i play once a week and get $20 free play per week.
3/4/5x odds = .37% house edge
so $7500 coin in per week vs 40k coin in for this week.
because of the low .37% HE, i guess my adt didnt change that much :(
ADT = HA X Hours Played X Decisions per Hour X Average Bet
Quote: EvenBobCasinoboss, whats the future of table games in
casinos look like? Will they be moving away from
live dealers and going all electronic in the next
10 years?
Crystal ball in the shop right now. I'd say a lot has to depend on the success of internet gaming but I doubt it will every move to 100% electronic.
Quote: thecesspitCasinoBoss : What do you think of the move to more and more non-smoking casinos?
Bad for business.
Quote: MrVYes, I recall, but I'd still like to hear what CB says.
M casino had it for awhile, then yanked it.
Why?
Yeah what he said. Plus I'm thinking culinary union probably has something to do with it.
Can you do anything about the sidewalk porn slappers?
(it's been a topic of mostly derision here, nobody likes them AFAIK)
Quote: rxwineCB,
Can you do anything about the sidewalk porn slappers?
(it's been a topic of mostly derision here, nobody likes them AFAIK)
I told them to stop on my way to the car today so that should have quelled the uprising.
Quote: casinobossYeah what he said. Plus I'm thinking culinary union probably has something to do with it.
tray lizards are part of the culinary union ?
Promotional contests steered towards preferred customers. I don't mean high rollers who've earned, say, a bunch of prize entries through play, but the management has steered extra contest entries so they will, or are likely to win.
I happened to overhear two conversations, which gave me the impression this was happening. The first instance was listening to some execs talking to a customer (happened to be middle-aged lady), where I got the impression she was a very very good customer and also that she only was in town a couple times a year.
Later that evening, voila, she wins one of the top prizes. This is one of the promotions that went on all month. Sure, it was just a coincidence? Thousands and thousand of entries all month from many people. Hmm.
Anyway, I've no gripe with preferential treatment; it makes sense to give good customers perks, except when there's appearance other customers are probably getting the short end in doing it. I found it pretty grating, but like I said, not actually sure. But I still got that impression, on two occasions. Different story for the other, but similar enough.
So, maybe this is a complaint and a question.
Quote: rxwineHere's something that I don't have proof of happening, but I think has happened:
Promotional contests steered towards preferred customers. I don't mean high rollers who've earned, say, a bunch of prize entries through play, but the management has steered extra contest entries so they will, or are likely to win.
I happened to overhear two conversations, which gave me the impression this was happening. The first instance was listening to some execs talking to a customer (happened to be middle-aged lady), where I got the impression she was a very very good customer and also that she only was in town a couple times a year.
Later that evening, voila, she wins one of the top prizes. This is one of the promotions that went on all month. Sure, it was just a coincidence? Thousands and thousand of entries all month from many people. Hmm.
Anyway, I've no gripe with preferential treatment; it makes sense to give good customers perks, except when there's appearance other customers are probably getting the short end in doing it. I found it pretty grating, but like I said, not actually sure. But I still got that impression, on two occasions. Different story for the other, but similar enough.
So, maybe this is a complaint and a question.
Very taboo.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2004/feb/25/venetian-settles-complaint-over-rigging-of-contest/
Quote: casinobossVery taboo.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2004/feb/25/venetian-settles-complaint-over-rigging-of-contest/
yup.. a Venetian Sr VP and 2 VPs were involved. all 3 were fired. i dont think they served any jail time. and i dont know if they faced fines?
but after all these yrs, i still dont know how they were caught???
Quote: 100xOddsbut after all these yrs, i still dont know how they were caught???
Heh, well if they are out in the casino discussing anything off the cuff, they should make sure no one is within listening distance who may matter. I don't know that that had anything to do with it, but I suppose it's one possibility
Question; are the pit bosses and hosts finding themselves with less discretion in the last decade or so, with most ratings and player profiles computerized and maybe standardized? Or has it turned to their advantage in being able to better target desirable players? I have had hosts in several casinos, and my old-timer at the LVH seems to lament the good old days when they could do things, my young pup at HLV has given me unbelievable comps that seem way above my play level (limo/show tix/New Year's Eve packages/plane tix/etc), and my sweet Greek at ACH works miracles with special shows and such. I've also been snooted at Grand Biloxi, then earned a double-take that (I have to admit) was somewhat satisfying, though I'm not a high-demand customer. So they're all over the map, suck-up-wise, even within the same gaming group, and since I would like to maximize my standing, I'm curious. Maybe the way to ask this is, for a medium-high roller, what might be the 5 most desirable and 5 least desirable traits that would lead to a great relationship with the casino these days?
counters seriously, or are they more like bothersome
knats buzzing around your head. Do you discuss them
with those who work with you? The average good
counter only averages $8-$10 an hour in profits. How
can this be a threat to your bottom line.
Quote: EvenBobCB, do you and the people you work with take card
counters seriously, or are they more like bothersome
knats buzzing around your head. Do you discuss them
with those who work with you? The average good
counter only averages $8-$10 an hour in profits. How
can this be a threat to your bottom line.
I think 8-10 would be enough to sweat the players. You wouldn't want them to actually get comfortable, like nobody cared. Perhaps in some cases, they are also taking up a seat for a player who would be playing badly and losing, so it's potentially more loss to the casino than just what they take in.
If a customer costs you $80 a day, when he should be making you $80 a day is a problem. How big a problem depends on your business, and how much it costs to manage that loss is a problem. $58 grand/year will affect the bottom line. Might be only a bit, but ten of those, there's half a million a year.
The counter measures may not be worth it, or they may be. If you lose $80 in produce a day from customers squishing the fruit too hard on the fruit stand, you might take steps to prevent it. Staring at them really hard might save you some of that loss revenue. Maybe you employ Face to spot the counter from up high. Businesses can, and should, pragmatically reduce their costs and increase their revenues. Or did I learn microeconomics 101 badly?
And one more question:
After how many attempts at sliding the dice would a crew "stop" the shooter? (I leave "stop" to interpretation ranging from calling a no-roll to taking away the dice to removing them from the casino.)
Quote: FleaStiffWhile awaiting CB's response, I believe the M resort yanked the self service drink stations due to abuse, dumping and humungous private containers being used. Scheduled maintenance was needed but annoyed users anyway.
ahh.. i was wondering why more casinos didnt do this.
i'm also surprised the west virgina casino i goto still does this
Quote: EvenBobCB, do you and the people you work with take card
counters seriously, or are they more like bothersome
knats buzzing around your head. Do you discuss them
with those who work with you? The average good
counter only averages $8-$10 an hour in profits. How
can this be a threat to your bottom line.
You used the word "profit". That's why/how.
Quote: beachbumbabsCasinoBoss; welcome to the forum! I'm enjoying your terse and sometimes snappy answers, and not just for the content. Thanks for providing another dimension to the expertise of this group.
Question; are the pit bosses and hosts finding themselves with less discretion in the last decade or so, with most ratings and player profiles computerized and maybe standardized? Or has it turned to their advantage in being able to better target desirable players? I have had hosts in several casinos, and my old-timer at the LVH seems to lament the good old days when they could do things, my young pup at HLV has given me unbelievable comps that seem way above my play level (limo/show tix/New Year's Eve packages/plane tix/etc), and my sweet Greek at ACH works miracles with special shows and such. I've also been snooted at Grand Biloxi, then earned a double-take that (I have to admit) was somewhat satisfying, though I'm not a high-demand customer. So they're all over the map, suck-up-wise, even within the same gaming group, and since I would like to maximize my standing, I'm curious. Maybe the way to ask this is, for a medium-high roller, what might be the 5 most desirable and 5 least desirable traits that would lead to a great relationship with the casino these days?
Yes absolutely there is less discretion.
Most desirable 1-5: Don't ask for anything, spend lots of money.
Least desirable 1-5: Ask for a lot, don't spend any money.
Quote: casinobossYes absolutely there is less discretion.
Most desirable 1-5: Don't ask for anything, spend lots of money.
Least desirable 1-5: Ask for a lot, don't spend any money.
So there's no finesse or hints you might have about this? The above I knew. Was thinking more of...
1. Are gifts welcome/awkward/not allowed? If welcome, do they have any effect?
2. Are there categories of gifts allowed and others not (ie small tokens, personal items vs. gift cards or cash).
3. Can you politely call to a pit boss' attention if you are playing for a rating and have raised your average bet, are playing a second hand, or is it somehow an insult to check that they have you at the higher action every so often? I usually start at table minimum to see how the table's running, then may play 2nd/3rd hand or increase on winnings.
4. I have had most hosts insist they want to be asked for things to show the company they're attending to me, but you're making a blanket statement above. Is that BS from them? The few times when they asked and I said, "well, such and such...but I didn't want to trouble you/ it wasn't worth worrying about" they seemed insulted.
5. Are they able to still do things like comp rooms, food, trinkets from the pit without accounting on/subtracting from point balances, or is everything now required to be taken from the account?
6. Are their performance reviews or the equivalent based significantly on after-stay surveys/comment cards, either positive or negative, or is that a casino stunt for show and they're not worth filling out?
7. Do they rate you on intangibles like drawing in other people to a table or making their experience more fun, demonstrating an honest play when they know the dealer's made an error in your favor and you called it, being rude to dealers or other players, stuff like that, or is it all ATD/game (sorry if that's the wrong abbreviation for hands x average bet x hours played) , plus maybe some note if you seem like advantage players?
I've had a really quiet 6 years out of the system, with the economy and several life events, but am about to get into it again, and it took me years the first time to figure out how to be a good roller and enjoy max benefits. In that time, it seems a lot of things have changed, so was hoping to smarten up faster than hit or miss again. Thanks in advance~!
(edited for grammar/clarity)
Quote: beachbumbabsSo there's no finesse or hints you might have about this? The above I knew. Was thinking more of...
1. Are gifts welcome/awkward/not allowed? If welcome, do they have any effect?
Effect on what? If a host will give you additional comps? Of course they will to the extent the host can comp you. Most of the time, though, gifts cannot be kept and usually are shared among the staff.
2. Are there categories of gifts allowed and others not (ie small tokens, personal items vs. gift cards or cash).
See above.
3. Can you politely call to a pit boss' attention if you are playing for a rating and have raised your average bet, are playing a second hand, or is it somehow an insult to check that they have you at the higher action every so often? I usually start at table minimum to see how the table's running, then may play 2nd/3rd hand or increase on winnings.
You can ask but it's ultimately the supervisor's decision.
4. I have had most hosts insist they want to be asked for things to show the company they're attending to me, but you're making a blanket statement above. Is that BS from them? The few times when they asked and I said, "well, such and such...but I didn't want to trouble you/ it wasn't worth worrying about" they seemed insulted.
Asked for what kind of things? I don't understand.
5. Are they able to still do things like comp rooms, food, trinkets from the pit without accounting on/subtracting from point balances, or is everything now required to be taken from the account?
It depends on the casino but generally there has to be an accounting for anything given.
6. Are their performance reviews or the equivalent based significantly on after-stay surveys/comment cards, either positive or negative, or is that a casino stunt for show and they're not worth filling out?
Again, it depends on the casino. At a place like a Harrah's/Caesars property, the results factor into bonuses. At a place like Jerry's Nugget I wouldn't be surprised if they just go into the trash.
7. Do they rate you on intangibles like drawing in other people to a table or making their experience more fun, demonstrating an honest play when they know the dealer's made an error in their favor, being rude to dealers or other players, stuff like that, or is it all ATD/game (sorry if that's the wrong abbreviation for hands x average bet x hours played) , plus maybe some note if you seem like advantage players?
ADT
I've had a really quiet 6 years out of the system, with the economy and several life events, but am about to get into it again, and it took me years the first time to figure out how to be a good roller and enjoy max benefits. In that time, it seems a lot of things have changed, so was hoping to smarten up faster than hit or miss again. Thanks in advance~!
Quote: casinoboss4. I have had most hosts insist they want to be asked for things to show the company they're attending to me, but you're making a blanket statement above. Is that BS from them? The few times when they asked and I said, "well, such and such...but I didn't want to trouble you/ it wasn't worth worrying about" they seemed insulted.
Asked for what kind of things? I don't understand.
re: the above. I've had them track me down on the floor and force NASCAR tickets, Manilow tickets, cruise tickets on me at different times, and insist I use them and get back to them about enjoying the thing they comped me so they could report it back. I've had pit bosses hand me $100 dinner comps without me asking for them. They said I "had them coming" and wanted them used. There was a check-out confusion on a previous visit at one re: my guests using the spa while I played, and I paid several hundred rather than making a fuss, then that visit was asked about it and told I should have gotten them to intercede on my behalf (they refunded my credit card). All of that is extra service I didn't ask them for, but they were quite insistent that it was to their benefit to provide it. You're saying that now it's, don't ask for anything, play a lot. When I go, I tend to play 14-18 hours per day and let others use that stuff if they want it; I'm there to gamble. So I'm getting from what else you've said that I shouldn't ask for their help or goodies, and lower my expectations about them bringing me stuff or helping with problems. Would that be correct?
Thanks again!
Quote: beachbumbabsre: the above. I've had them track me down on the floor and force NASCAR tickets, Manilow tickets, cruise tickets on me at different times, and insist I use them and get back to them about enjoying the thing they comped me so they could report it back. I've had pit bosses hand me $100 dinner comps without me asking for them. They said I "had them coming" and wanted them used. There was a check-out confusion on a previous visit at one re: my guests using the spa while I played, and I paid several hundred rather than making a fuss, then that visit was asked about it and told I should have gotten them to intercede on my behalf (they refunded my credit card). All of that is extra service I didn't ask them for, but they were quite insistent that it was to their benefit to provide it. You're saying that now it's, don't ask for anything, play a lot. When I go, I tend to play 14-18 hours per day and let others use that stuff if they want it; I'm there to gamble. So I'm getting from what else you've said that I shouldn't ask for their help or goodies, and lower my expectations about them bringing me stuff or helping with problems. Would that be correct?
Thanks again!
Obviously I can't tell you about your specific situation but let me give you an example of something that has happened to me.
I befriended a salesman for an NBA team. He called me one day and asked if I could get him a nice suite for his anniversary. In exchange he would give me two pairs of court side tickets to five games as long as they weren't for a uber-popular team (e.g., the Heat). I said "deal!".
I told the host staff about the tickets and told them that whoever can use them, please do and the host whose players generates the most theo on their next trip gets a free day off.
So obviously the hosts are racking their brains to figure out who to call and offer the tickets to.
How do you get to the forefront of their memory?
I am lucky enough to have casual friendships with several pit bosses and casino management people and always welcome the opportunity to pick their brain and hear their views. Even though on opposite sides of the fence, I feel like there is area for co-existence and that is why I try to learn and understand and stay within each casino's tolerance and comfort levels. The opportunities I have to discuss thoughts with folks like yourself help me to do this, so again, I welcome you and thank you for your willingness to participate.
Quote: casinobossYou used the word "profit". That's why/how.
So you're saying casinos tolerate no consistent winners
no matter how small their profit. Is that correct?
Do you think thats fair? Doesn't it go against all your
advertising that tells us to come on in, give it our best
shot?
Haven't paid for a hotel room or an in-house meal for 20 years, sometimes get limos/plane tix (new place, I ask them to review my play at checkout and they write off the room). Got comp offers for Bette Midler, Celine Dion, top shows I couldn't get to Vegas to redeem, suite packages/parties on holidays/weekends, stuff like that. Don't mean it to sound so calculated, but I guess maybe it is and I wasn't looking at it from that aspect before trying to detail it here. I just genuinely enjoy the cards, the camraderie, the thrill of hitting, letting someone else do the housekeeping and cooking, that sort of thing. I generally expose 5K-10K/day unless I hit bottom for that day early, usually go home 1-3K loser overall (a good percentage of that is tips, sometimes all), but have won as much as 7k overall on a trip, lost 5K once. I tip 10% on bonus wins and slot handpays, and if I've had a good session with a dealer as they change out (even if I lose but they've done a good job: I refuse to sit at a table and gripe), but I generally only tip out of winnings, don't try to bet every hand for the dealer out of stakes (used to, but just lost faster). No idea how that compares with your average hosted player, but that's what I do, since you asked, and they seem to like seeing me come back.
I get treated best at medium properties except the Borgata loves me too (I consider them high-end, above Caesar's and the rest, but not my favorite AC floor to play). Borgata was kind enough to issue me a black card on opening day (I was Harrah's Diamond at the time) and that still impresses me. Top-end occasionally send me basic offers I don't use, and I don't like the low-end properties like IP used to be, though some of them have bettter floors, so I'll play but not stay. I always give the place I stay at least half my action/day.
Quote: EvenBobSo you're saying casinos tolerate no consistent winners
no matter how small their profit. Is that correct?
Do you think thats fair? Doesn't it go against all your
advertising that tells us to come on in, give it our best
shot?
I prefer Dancer's reasoning. Casinos can offer some low return gaming like positive VP in limited amounts. It's brings in the person who may bring in their spouse who possibly loses more in slots anyway.
That's probably the best they will offer, in any event. And some don't even offer that much. The rest is unintentional, like hole carding and any other angle the errant gambler may be able to extract.
