REVEL boycott!!!
Quote: aceofspadesBob - I wil answer it this way and you may take it as a non-answer - the casino controls every aspect of the game - we are not allowed to touch the cards or the chips until they are in front of us - they have a team of security, pit bosses, floor managers, etc. all on their side - am I now supposed to ensure everyone is doing their job and they always are correct in paying or not paying as well? Where is my team of personnel?
Yeah, Mr. Wonderful was right once again.
Thanks for being honest. Still would have been a class act to tip the dealer.
Quote: aceofspadesPerhaps I am not an AP or even a casual AP - but, I did manage to get another $400 out of the casino - what's the EV on that?
I don't know. I value my dignity a bit more.
Quote: BuzzardI don't know. I value my dignity a bit more.
Not a question of dignity my friend - a question of being treated with dignity.
Quote: aceofspadesNot a question of dignity my friend - a question of being treated with dignity.
Hey, the host kissed your ass. That's his job, not mine.
Quote: BuzzardHey, the host kissed your ass. That's his job, not mine.
Was not the host - my host was powerless in this situation.
Also, every other pit boss I spoke to said they shift manager made a bad call (maybe they were all kissing my a*** as well) because why would anyone ever agree with Ace?
Gee, screw the rules. Never mind the dealer and house were right. It's ok to bend them if it puts money in Ace's pocket.
Quote: aceofspadesWas not the host - my host was powerless in this situation.
Also, every other pit boss I spoke to said they shift manager made a bad call (maybe they were all kissing my a*** as well) because why would anyone ever agree with Ace?
Misery loves company. The shift manager did what he is paid to do. Enforce the rules of BJ as decreed by gaming !
Quote: aceofspadesAt the end of the day, AP, ploppy, whatever, the goal is to have more money of the casino's then they have of yours (legally), is it not?
Of course. But you would have had the dealer illegally give you $100. When she got fired, would you have defended her pro-bono ? Just asking ?
And then the dealer showed a BJ and the player lost both bets.
Isn't this called (the dealer) cheating by any standard?
Later, the dealer realized her mistake, and pushed back the double.
But a mistake is a mistake.
The fairest and neutral thing the casino could do is void this hand
and push back all bets. It is a misdeal or some kind of.
I saw many similar cases in other casinos, and treated as misdeal.
But the casino didn't do that and I think they were wrong.
Now they decided to give the player $100 back, I think the player deserves it.
It is not customer service. They now realized they handled it wrong in the first place.
As a bookie I would always side with the bettor on any controversial game/finish.
I always tried to focus on the big picture. Winning or losing ONE GAME meant nothing.
I wanted to keep them betting until all their money was in my bankroll.
The casino should simply say:
"Mr Ace, the rules are very clear on this. But you are a valued customer,
and we appreciate your business. So we are going to agree with you on this one."
That's how I would have handled the situation. I just don't see the downside to doing it this way.
So the result was a good one. I am just saying I would have never have thought to get upset enough to get a refund. So I guess Ace played it better than I would have!
Oh wait, the State of NJ removed them from the casinos to save money.
Quote: FatGeezusThis issue could have been resolved by going over to the Casino Commission Agent and explain to them what happened. They would have resolved the issue.
Oh wait, the State of NJ removed them from the casinos to save money.
Yup, thank our republican governor for that. Who would have guessed a republican would cut funding for agencies whose job it is to protect the public consumer? Oh wait...
Quote: aceofspadesBEcause once the dealer checks the hole card and does not have the Ace, I took a shot!!! Then, I took another shot - and am now +400 because of it. it all comes down to money in the casino world, they want yours and you want theirs, aside from doing anything illegal, it is a MAchiavellian situation. Why is it when a player seeks to gain an unfair advantage other players frown upon it but yet have no problem with the casino having an unfair advantage from the get-go?
I keep wrong pays and take advantage of flashing dealers but I don't seek them out. You're trying to change the rules and yes you wanted to be paid when you deserved nothing. Now what about that double down?
Quote: aceofspades.... it is a MAchiavellian situation...... Why is it when a player seeks to gain an unfair advantage other players frown upon it but yet have no problem with the casino having an unfair advantage from the get-go?
No it is not.....Somewhere in other post you described yourself as a petulant child. You whinned (you forgot all the freebies you have received), and the casino made a business decision. Casino having unfair advantage? Get real. Theoretical odds of each game on the floor is a know quantity.
Quote: 1BB...now tell us why you doubled 11 against an ace.
Good catch...I'm disappointed in myself that I didn't catch that one.
Quote: EvenBobTell them you want 4 weekends of free rooms..
I already get that
You seem like a nice guy and it's good you stayed calm. But you're just wrong on this one. The dealer had BJ...period. The fact that she missed it in the viewer the first time, changes nothing, you lost the hand. She gave you your DD money back. Whats the issue?
You are going to say bad customer service...ok to a point I agree with that. But it was only a customer service issue because you wanted a push on a had you had legitimately lost. So sorry but I think the Revel is right this time. I'd be the first to say so if the casino was pulling a fast one but this seems legit.
Good Luck going forward.
Quote: BhappyNo it is not.....Somewhere in other post you described yourself as a petulant child. You whinned (you forgot all the freebies you have received), and the casino made a business decision. Casino having unfair advantage? Get real. Theoretical odds of each game on the floor is a know quantity.
Please point me to this post...I think it was another poster who said it sounded like I was being a petulant child...
Quote: pokerfaceThe dealer first claimed no BJ, and which caused the player to double down.
And then the dealer showed a BJ and the player lost both bets.
Isn't this called (the dealer) cheating by any standard?
Later, the dealer realized her mistake, and pushed back the double.
But a mistake is a mistake.
The fairest and neutral thing the casino could do is void this hand
and push back all bets. It is a misdeal or some kind of.
I saw many similar cases in other casinos, and treated as misdeal.
But the casino didn't do that and I think they were wrong.
Now they decided to give the player $100 back, I think the player deserves it.
It is not customer service. They now realized they handled it wrong in the first place.
Once again, AC shows where it differs from Vegas - I have had things less egregious than this occur in Vegas
and the dealer will tell the pit boss they had a misdeal and leave everyone's chips up - bing bang boom - everyone moves on
and continues playing...I asked the shift manager at Revel if the $100 chip was a make or break issue for Revel
Quote: MakingBookI'm with Ace on this one.
As a bookie I would always side with the bettor on any controversial game/finish.
I always tried to focus on the big picture. Winning or losing ONE GAME meant nothing.
I wanted to keep them betting until all their money was in my bankroll.
The casino should simply say:
"Mr Ace, the rules are very clear on this. But you are a valued customer,
and we appreciate your business. So we are going to agree with you on this one."
That's how I would have handled the situation. I just don't see the downside to doing it this way.
They were penny wise and pound foolish!
Quote: vendman1Ace,
You seem like a nice guy and it's good you stayed calm. But you're just wrong on this one. The dealer had BJ...period. The fact that she missed it in the viewer the first time, changes nothing, you lost the hand. She gave you your DD money back. Whats the issue?
You are going to say bad customer service...ok to a point I agree with that. But it was only a customer service issue because you wanted a push on a had you had legitimately lost. So sorry but I think the Revel is right this time. I'd be the first to say so if the casino was pulling a fast one but this seems legit.
Good Luck going forward.
Well, minds can differ on this one - I like to think of it as turning a negative into a positive.
Quote: aceofspadesPlease point me to this post...I think it was another poster who said it sounded like I was being a petulant child...
my pleasure
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/12734-revel-to-allow-smoking-starting-valentines-day-staff/14/
Quote: Bhappy
Totally out of context in a post unrelated to anything herein - yes I made that post and remember it - it was concerning whether or not I was getting credit for a news story LOL it was clearly meant as sarcastic and I said as much - it had nothing to do with this post or how I acted in real life
With that said, trying to declare a push is a bit reaching. I agree with 1BB's assessment saying that they pulled up your records and decided to make a business decision to smooth things over with a high roller such as yourself. Making you feel like you weren't cheated or wronged is important considering your a black chip player. Why lose the EV to another casino over something trivial?
Doubling on the dealer's Ace is definitely taking a shot. Ballsy. While boymimbo is correct on the future impact of losing that 10, I disagree with boymimbo's comment on a do-over as to giving ace the 10 on the next hand. You can't allow Ace to have an undue advantage on the next hand. Ace could try to bet even more knowing that the next hand is a 10. Also, maybe that next card should have been the Lady's if she was sitting before Ace. In my opinion, that card has been essentially burned as if a dog jumps onto the table eats the card and poops it out. I'm sure some of the AP's would still want it only after knowing whether it benefits them or not.
Knowing that the dealer got a clear BJ or hell even 21, I could not declare a push on the table. I think that type of decision making is definitely outside of the dealer's control. It's a management decision, and the floor decided against you.
Just because you are right in the letter of the law, does not mean you are right. And in this case, despite being wrong in the letter of the law, the casino's marketing executive gave you a measure of goodwill without necessarily saying you were right or wrong.
I would have done the good-will slightly differently. Comp your stay if it wasn't already comped. Apologize for incident, comp you a meal and a show, and maybe a few match play tickets. I'm a bit surprised he gave you cash. I guess they valued your play enough that they felt this was the best way to smooth things over. I don't think every type of player facing your situation would be treated as generously.
Quote: aceofspadesOnce again, AC shows where it differs from Vegas - I have had things less egregious than this occur in Vegas
and the dealer will tell the pit boss they had a misdeal and leave everyone's chips up - bing bang boom - everyone moves on
and continues playing...I asked the shift manager at Revel if the $100 chip was a make or break issue for Revel
Ace, can we have a separate posting on misdeal situations and the casino's response? I think this would be a very interesting topic.
Quote: aceofspadesWIZ - I remained calm the entire time - no shouting, no yelling, just calm and reserved. I told them I would not give them any more business and wished them well.
And it worked, good for you. The casino doesn't
play fair, get them whenever you can. They
aren't called the DarkSide for nothing.
Quote: AsswhoopermcdaddyI had to read this a couple of times. Basically, your Lady friend would have lost either way. The dealer screwed up, but the dealer did refund your double bet. I agree with the dealer and the casino management for taking away your original bet. You and your Lady friend would have both lost the original hand had the dealer correctly called BJ first.
With that said, trying to declare a push is a bit reaching. I agree with 1BB's assessment saying that they pulled up your records and decided to make a business decision to smooth things over with a high roller such as yourself. Making you feel like you weren't cheated or wronged is important considering your a black chip player. Why lose the EV to another casino over something trivial?
Doubling on the dealer's Ace is definitely taking a shot. Ballsy. While boymimbo is correct on the future impact of losing that 10, I disagree with boymimbo's comment on a do-over as to giving ace the 10 on the next hand. You can't allow Ace to have an undue advantage on the next hand. Ace could try to bet even more knowing that the next hand is a 10. Also, maybe that next card should have been the Lady's if she was sitting before Ace. In my opinion, that card has been essentially burned as if a dog jumps onto the table eats the card and poops it out. I'm sure some of the AP's would still want it only after knowing whether it benefits them or not.
Knowing that the dealer got a clear BJ or hell even 21, I could not declare a push on the table. I think that type of decision making is definitely outside of the dealer's control. It's a management decision, and the floor decided against you.
Just because you are right in the letter of the law, does not mean you are right. And in this case, despite being wrong in the letter of the law, the casino's marketing executive gave you a measure of goodwill without necessarily saying you were right or wrong.
I would have done the good-will slightly differently. Comp your stay if it wasn't already comped. Apologize for incident, comp you a meal and a show, and maybe a few match play tickets. I'm a bit surprised he gave you cash. I guess they valued your play enough that they felt this was the best way to smooth things over. I don't think every type of player facing your situation would be treated as generously.
All my rooms are already comped and I already saw Don Henley comped the evening before. What they should have realized was that the other lady and I were their only two players in the high limit room on a Saturday night where they had 8 blackjack tables open. They wasted much more than $100 in the 30 minutes of time it took them to sort it out. The lady left (along with her 100k credit line) and another friend of mine, who, after seeing me distraught, decided he would take his 25k in cash down to Taj. All of this could have been settled in under 10 seconds by just leaving the bet up there.
Quote: AsswhoopermcdaddyAce, can we have a separate posting on misdeal situations and the casino's response? I think this would be a very interesting topic.
Per your suggestion - Casino misdeals and other faux pas
Quote: aceofspadesTotally out of context in a post unrelated to anything herein - yes I made that post and remember it - it was concerning whether or not I was getting credit for a news story LOL it was clearly meant as sarcastic and I said as much - it had nothing to do with this post or how I acted in real life
I do not wish to engage in a debate with a lawyer. A simpleton like me would read,"I was trying to come across as a petulant child." as what it means.
Quote: BhappyI do not wish to engage in a debate with a lawyer. A simpleton like me would read,"I was trying to come across as a petulant child." as what it means.
Yes and I also stated I had written it that was sarcastically and it was also in a thread regarding smoking at Revel and whether or not I was getting credit for a news article LOL totally facetious
Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy
Doubling on the dealer's Ace is definitely taking a shot. Ballsy.
Since when is playing Basic Strategy ballsy?
Quote: aceofspadesI have no issue with this at all - the casino has an unfair advantage over all of us.
Really? If the house edge is known before playing (and it certainly is knowable) and you partake anyway, how does the house have an Unfair advantage?
Quote: aceofspades
We have NEVER heard of a casino supplying pain meds for someone's back problems without seeing a doctor or prescription and having them play while drugged and lose millions of dollars...have we?
I've never heard of a casino dispensing prescription meds, it wouldn't be legal. I can't speak for any other property, but where I work you can buy acetaminophen in the gift shop.
Quote: aceofspades
So the casino can have an unfair advantage when they control all aspects but the player cannot complain over an issue of whether a hand should be voided?
Sure you can complain. Many players do... at length. I think the mistake you're making here is to think that your situation is unique or that you're special. Casino management deals with these issues constantly.
Quote: aceofspadesPerhaps I am not an AP or even a casual AP - but, I did manage to get another $400 out of the casino - what's the EV on that?
In dollars or karma? I wasn't going to bother responding to this thread, but that comment changed my mind. Management made the right initial call, they ruled against a shot taker. Why they backpedaled is baffling, except it's Revel and they probably need the business that bad.
There was a time when I would have been stunned to hear someone act so proud of the sort of behavior you described, but in my time working for the house I see it all too often.
Quote: BuzzardIf Face reads this, he will tell you she might have been fired as a result. And with cause, meaning no unemployment. And probably blacklisted at other casinos. Hell, gaming could even deny her a license.
Perhaps, if she already had prior infractions. But in and of itself, doubtful unless the place was a real hard-ass joint. Also, I don’t think aceofspades would or should be faulted for that. She is the one who goofed, and did so all by herself. Perhaps his insistence of restitution and the eventual “loss” of money incurred by them buying his loyalty back made it worse, but not by much. And he has every right to attempt to get what he can.
Now for the incident. The way they handled it was completely correct. A mistake was made, and they fixed the parts that were wrong. The natural was a natural and stayed that way, your double never should have happen and was therefore returned, and all the cards drawn in error were exposed, so they were burned. As far as the “black and white” goes, that is all that should’ve happened, and honestly, that was all that you were owed.
You wanted to push it, and that’s your right. But a dealer can’t make that decision, nor could anyone on the floor. I mean, they could, but I’ve seen people get fired for a lot less. Your 20 minute wait was unfortunate but necessary, since the Shifts aren’t always easy to track down. Looking at this from our side, I don’t see a problem with them not giving you a dime. After all, you weren’t actually owed anything. And if we just hand out what the customer thinks they deserve every time they feel wronged… I’m sure you can imagine what a cluster that scenario would be.
Perhaps they could’ve, as someone mentioned, just declared the entire round dead and void and returned everything, but I don’t think this situation called for that. It wasn’t a cluster where no result could be determined, in fact, it was easy to see the result. You lost. The fact that they eventually gave you what I consider to be a hell of a lot shows they obviously value you as a customer and was darned nice thing to do, seeing as they owed exactly $0. If somebody wanted to aggravate me for 30 minutes, I surely take $100 as an apology (hell, I’d take a ham sandwich and a cold beer =p)
Quote: MonkeyMonkey
Quote: aceofspades
We have NEVER heard of a casino supplying pain meds for someone's back problems without seeing a doctor or prescription and having them play while drugged and lose millions of dollars...have we?
I've never heard of a casino dispensing prescription meds, it wouldn't be legal. I can't speak for any other property, but where I work you can buy acetaminophen in the gift shop.
here you go
Quote: SOOPOOSince when is playing Basic Strategy ballsy?
Compared to most BJ players, it is. And it really is for UTH. :)
And to really split hairs, Wizard's appendix 9 suggests hitting 9,2 vs A for S17 double deck.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/9/2ds17r4/
Quote: MonkeyMonkeydispensing prescription meds, it wouldn't be legal. I can't speak for any other property, but where I work you can buy acetaminophen in the gift shop.
Agreed. This incident aceofspades described never happened. Distributing prescription meds without a license is a felony, and should a complication arise, we'd be looking at manslaughter if not homicide charges.
We won't even give aspirin or benadryl. We have some in the shop to buy, but you won't ever get it from us.
Quote: FaceAgreed. This incident aceofspades described never happened. Distributing prescription meds without a license is a felony, and should a complication arise, we'd be looking at manslaughter if not homicide charges.
We won't even give aspirin or benadryl. We have some in the shop to buy, but you won't ever get it from us.
So I suppose casino hosts don't supply 'ladies of the evening' either...?
Caesars and painkillers
Quote: aceofspadesQuote: MonkeyMonkey
Quote: aceofspades
We have NEVER heard of a casino supplying pain meds for someone's back problems without seeing a doctor or prescription and having them play while drugged and lose millions of dollars...have we?
I've never heard of a casino dispensing prescription meds, it wouldn't be legal. I can't speak for any other property, but where I work you can buy acetaminophen in the gift shop.
here you go
Interesting. So where's the link where Mr Watanabe won his civil suit? Where's the link to the criminal investigation into Harrah's illegal activity?
Are you seriously offering an article with allegations as evidence of wrongdoing? In fact, in reading the article I can't see how Mr Watanabe can win either of his cases. It looks like he is indeed in debt to Harrah's for his gambling losses and I'd be hard pressed to imagine how he can prove that he was given prescription meds. Sounds like another shot taker, just on a much larger level.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyQuote: aceofspadesQuote: MonkeyMonkey
Quote: aceofspades
We have NEVER heard of a casino supplying pain meds for someone's back problems without seeing a doctor or prescription and having them play while drugged and lose millions of dollars...have we?
I've never heard of a casino dispensing prescription meds, it wouldn't be legal. I can't speak for any other property, but where I work you can buy acetaminophen in the gift shop.
here you go
Interesting. So where's the link where Mr Watanabe won his civil suit? Where's the link to the criminal investigation into Harrah's illegal activity?
Are you seriously offering an article with allegations as evidence of wrongdoing? In fact, in reading the article I can't see how Mr Watanabe can win either of his cases. It looks like he is indeed in debt to Harrah's for his gambling losses and I'd be hard pressed to imagine how he can prove that he was given prescription meds. Sounds like another shot taker, just on a much larger level.
I believe everybody dropped everything in a private settlement. But, are you saying in the history of post-mob owned casinos, no casino has ever supplied drugs or anything illegal to a patron...seems a bit naïve...
Palms criminal investigation into supplying prostitutes and drugs
Quote: aceofspades
I believe everybody dropped everything in a private settlement.
With regard to Watanabe, yes.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/high-roller-strikes-deal-with-harrah-s-over--14-7-million-gambling-debt-98034649.html
Quote: IbeatyouracesHe plays a S17 game and BS for 11 vs. A is to hit. He never did say what the count was but with Speed Count, I dont know the index number.
If this had happen to me, which it has many times I'd accept the loss.
I don't think the Speed Count uses index play. Even if it did the minimum bet on the hand in question tells us that the count wasn't high enough to deviate from basic strategy.
To clear up any confusion, at no time did the dealer or anyone else attempt to take the double down portion of the bet. Older players may remember that before mirror or light devices were used most blackjack was played exactly the way that hand was. We're not in Europe so doubles and splits were always returned in the event of a dealer blackjack.
