Obamacare
Quote: s2dbakerThe first mention of a mandate was a conservative Heritage Foundation idea. I will always blame the conservatives for the mandate because that's where the blame belongs.I called you flag a freak, that's hardly the same thing.
Going over your laundry list would be a waste of time. Here's why; you will never change your mind. You are firmly ensconced in your belief that Obamacare = Bad and pointing out how wrong all those things listed above are, wouldn't change how you feel about it. Shorter version: the effort would be wasted.
Anyone else find it funny that he thinks Obamacare is great yet he says the centerpiece of it was a conservative idea? That he thinks people without health insurance are costing us all money yet the mandate is a bad idea?
Next thing you know he will say Obamacare saves people money over the policies they liked.
If Obamacare is such a good idea, why does the law sate we have to purchase a policy? If it were good and saved you money people would be running to buy it.
Quote: s2dbakerI called you flag a freak, that's hardly the same thing.
Okay. Whatever.
Quote: s2dbakerGoing over your laundry list would be a waste of time. Here's why; you will never change your mind. You are firmly ensconced in your belief that Obamacare = Bad and pointing out how wrong all those things listed above are, wouldn't change how you feel about it. Shorter version: the effort would be wasted.
Thank you for passing judgement on me; I appreciate it. Actually, if this thing were to magically turn around and turn out well, I'd give full credit where credit is due. I just doubt seriously that there is any chance of that.
I'm guessing that you can't really refute the points I made so you just call it a waste of time. It'd be interesting to see what you could come up with, though.
Quote: s2dbakerIf you think that Obamacare wouldn't have become law under a Republican administration then you are just deluding yourself.
For all who choose to respond, this statement proves that s2dbaker is a troll. Nothing more, nothing less. Even, Beeth, etc... you can opt to discourse with him, but he has defined himself as a troll.
Quote: SOOPOOFor all who choose to respond, this statement proves that s2dbaker is a troll. Nothing more, nothing less. Even, Beeth, etc... you can opt to discourse with him, but he has defined himself as a troll.
I hate to agree with my anathesiologist and put down a lefty, but in this case, I'd have to agree. But it's good to have one on the left side of the debate.
Quote: SOOPOONothing more, nothing less. Even, Beeth, etc...
Nah, I'm nowhere near the s2dbaker level. He's an angry fellow, and it shows. I'm a happy guy.
Quote: SOOPOOyou can opt to discourse with him, but he has defined himself as a troll.
Of course. He states Obamacare is wonderful, then
in the next sentence tries to blame it on the Heritage
Foundation. He thinks Obamacare is wonderful and
wants to give credit for it to the Right? He's either
a troll, or very very confused.
Mitt Romney covered that issue in Massachusetts with the Free Rider's clause.Quote: AZDuffmanIf Obamacare is such a good idea, why does the law sate we have to purchase a policy? If it were good and saved you money people would be running to buy it.
I'm not confused at all. It's your side that seems to have extraordinary difficulty understanding basic facts. But I think it's more of a willful ignorance and lack of intellectual curiosity on your part.Quote: EvenBobOf course. He states Obamacare is wonderful, then
in the next sentence tries to blame it on the Heritage
Foundation. He thinks Obamacare is wonderful and
wants to give credit for it to the Right? He's either
a troll, or very very confused.
That's just a lie. Here's how I can tellQuote: RonCThank you for passing judgement on me; I appreciate it. Actually, if this thing were to magically turn around and turn out well, I'd give full credit where credit is due.
Quote: RonCI just doubt seriously that there is any chance of that.
Guess all that you like. It's a waste of time.Quote: RonCI'm guessing that you can't really refute the points I made so you just call it a waste of time. It'd be interesting to see what you could come up with, though.
more people are signing up, but who are they.
Not Latinos or Blacks, they're ignoring it. The
last figures I heard from about 3 weeks ago was,
45% were people aged 55-64. Yet that age
group makes up only 15% of the population.
If this is holding true, Obamacare has some very
big problems. The sickest part of the country
is signing up in droves, and why wouldn't they.
When you think about it, it's kinda funny. Obamacare
has got to be one of the stupidest laws that was
ever passed. It can't work, it's idiocy.
Quote: Beethoven9thNah, I'm nowhere near the s2dbaker level. He's an angry fellow, and it shows. I'm a happy guy.
Beeth... maybe my syntax was off.... I meant to say that you were the guys most likely to feed the troll, not that you are a troll!
many of s2d's arguments can be looked upon as just someone on the other side... but when he said that obamacare would have passed during a republican administration he was of course just looking to stir the pot, not making an actual statement he believes to be true.
I sense he has me blocked, he doesn't even make attempts to counter my points....
I don't have you blocked. You just don't make any sense.Quote: SOOPOOI sense he has me blocked, he doesn't even make attempts to counter my points....
Quote: s2dbakerI don't have you blocked. You just don't make any sense.
You would be the only forum member who thinks that. Of course others disagree with me over a variety of issues, and thats what the forums are all about. But you started out on the forums trying to make reasonable points, trying to defend 'Obamacare' and many other left leaning concepts, but you have devolved into a troll. And that is sad.
I asked you a simple question a ways back, still waiting for an answer.... Do you concede that Obama intentionally lied to the American people in order to gain favor for his signature program? And secondly, if he hadn't, do you believe 'Obamacare' would have passed?
Quote: SOOPOOBeeth... maybe my syntax was off.... I meant to say that you were the guys most likely to feed the troll, not that you are a troll!
Ah, gotcha. :) Also, you do have a point. After all, one wouldn't offer Jabba the Hutt more food...lol!
NoQuote: SOOPOODo you concede that Obama intentionally lied to the American people in order to gain favor for his signature program?
Irrelevant since he didn't.Quote: SOOPOOAnd secondly, if he hadn't, do you believe 'Obamacare' would have passed?
Quote: s2dbakerNoIrrelevant since he didn't.
Thanks for the answers. I have a few friends who generally support Obamacare, but not a one that does not think that Obama used lies and trickery to get it passed.
How do you respond to "Beerseason", presumably an average Joe, whose insurance costs skyrocketed? You repeatedly say something like 'America won'... how do you convince "Beerseason" that this is so?
Quote: SOOPOO
I sense he has me blocked, he doesn't even make attempts to counter my points....
He doesn't make an attempt to counter most points, though he often posts a reply.
Quote: AZDuffmanHe doesn't make an attempt to counter most points, though he often posts a reply.
He doesn't reply to me anymore. I guess I'm not special. :)
I don't know the specifics of Beerseason's circumstances. If I take what he says at face value then I have to believe that what he said isn't comparing apples to apples. His previous policy may have been worth less than the bandages that it wouldn't have paid for had he been hit by a bus. I can't know that but I can suspect that. I need more information.Quote: SOOPOOHow do you respond to "Beerseason", presumably an average Joe, whose insurance costs skyrocketed? You repeatedly say something like 'America won'... how do you convince "Beerseason" that this is so?
Quote: s2dbakerThat's just a lie.
Yes, you can tell by my lack of support for Obamacare that I am a liar.
Really?
Edit: both plans had roughly the same co-pays and such. But I received maternity care, woohoo.
saving $2500 a year, he wasn't lying? Show me
even one family saving $2500, let alone the average
family. These lies might be the biggest ever told
in our history by somebody in high office, because
they effect the most people. It's astonishing.
Quote: RonCThe Democrats and their cronies put together a partisan bill with no interest in anything the Republicans had to say.
The congress that worked together so well (not) would have gotten a workable plan together when they can barely agree on anything?
Nothing would have happened. Maybe that's fine with you.
And they did use Repubican ideas:
Quote:Headline: “Romneycare Was ‘Template’ For Obamacare” [James Pethokoukis, American Enterprise Institute, 1/26/12]
Politifact: The Massachusetts Plan Did Serve As A Model For The Affordable Care Act. “‘Romneycare was model for Obamacare.’ Rick Perry on Tuesday, October 11th, 2011 in a tweet… Although the federal law isn’t an exact replica of the one in Massachusetts, the plan signed by Romney certainly served as a model. We rate the statement as True.” [Politifact, 10/21/11]
Wall Street Journal: “Everyone Knows, The Health Reform Mr. Romney Passed In 2006 As Massachusetts Governor Was The Prototype For President Obama’s Version And Gave National Health Care A Huge Political Boost.” [Editorial, Wall Street Journal, 5/12/11]
White House Records Show Senior Obama Administration Officials Used Romneycare As A Model For The Affordable Care Act Including Recruiting Romney’s Own Health Care Advisers To Craft The National Bill. NBC wrote on Romney’s health care advisors, advising the White House on health care reform: “Newly obtained White House records provide fresh details on how senior Obama administration officials used Mitt Romney’s landmark health-care law in Massachusetts as a model for the new federal law, including recruiting some of Romney’s own health care advisers and experts to help craft the act now derided by Republicans as ‘Obamacare.’” [NBC, 10/10/11]
The Hill Headline: “Architect Of Romney’s Health Bill Says It’s ‘The Same’ As Obama’s.” [Hill, 11/16/11]
Jon Gruber Who Helped Write Obamacare And The Massachusetts Health Care Law: “The Federal Reform Is Simply A More Ambitious Version Of The Massachusetts Reform.” “‘The federal reform is simply a more ambitious version of the Massachusetts reform,’ said Jon Gruber, a professor of economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge who helped policy makers write both laws. ‘Within three years, we should see that the federal reform has covered the uninsured and stabilized the non-group market covering individuals who now face much higher premiums, Gruber said in a telephone interview.” [Bloomberg, 3/26/12]
http://l.barackobama.com/press/release/president-obama-romneycare-was-the-model-for-obamacare/
Quote: rxwine
And they did use Repubican ideas:
Add this to S2 to make 2 liberal votes that Obamacare is a complete failure. No other reason they would post this.
Quote: beerseasonI would like to think I have pretty good health care coverage without this dumb law. My premium doubled and got worse coverage due to Obamacare. This law is a giant s***storm.
I feel for you. I am a pharmacist and hear this on a daily basis. My own healthcare is gojng to save me 200-300 in premiums a year, but cost me out of pocket usage of 2k extra minimum
I see people all the time that used to pay 20 dollar copays for their 30 day supply of meds...and now pay a percentage. For example 50 percent for brand and 20 percent for generic.
This translates into hundreds of extra dollars out of pocket for some people per month just for the rxs. And I cannot speak for the doctor/hospital part of their policy.
Yes I am a sounding board peoples unhappiness....and sticker shock.
You are right...costs shift around so that we the prople pay for the millions of new entries into the system. Someone has to pay for it. Insurance companies cannto print up more money to pay for these services....so we the people will gladly pay for it.
And as has been notedm by evenbob....the system is being stressed by a large sector of resoruce draining customers......and as the resoruces are used and used and used.....we the people have just seen the beginning of the financial burden
Quote: anonimussSweep the butt kissing, self serving, lying liberal press under the rug where they belong
Yep, the media is guilty of aiding & abetting Obama in perpetuating the lies about Obamacare. If they had actually done their job, people would have opposed Obamacare from the start.
Quote: rxwineThe congress that worked together so well (not) would have gotten a workable plan together when they can barely agree on anything?
Nothing would have happened. Maybe that's fine with you.Quote:
Nothing would likely be better than what Obamacare will turn out to be but we did need more than nothing. My point isn't that the Democrats should have let the Republicans stop them from passing something but perhaps they should have at least let them help a bit and maybe make the bill a decent one. Even without that, the Democrats could have taken the time to write the bill before passing it and with everyone knowing what was in it. Part of the reason the bill is such a cluster is that it was written in a hurry--that did not have to happen.
I still wouldn't like it, but perhaps it would be a better constructed law that would work a bit better than what we have.
You can huff and puff and try to blame Republican ideas for this horrid law, but you're not convincing anyone. President Obama and the Democrats own it.
Quote: rxwineThe congress that worked together so well (not) would have gotten a workable plan together when they can barely agree on anything?
Nothing would have happened. Maybe that's fine with you.Quote:
Nothing would likely be better than what Obamacare will turn out to be but we did need more than nothing. My point isn't that the Democrats should have let the Republicans stop them from passing something but perhaps they should have at least let them help a bit and maybe make the bill a decent one. Even without that, the Democrats could have taken the time to write the bill before passing it and with everyone knowing what was in it. Part of the reason the bill is such a cluster is that it was written in a hurry--that did not have to happen.
I still wouldn't like it, but perhaps it would be a better constructed law that would work a bit better than what we have.
You can huff and puff and try to blame Republican ideas for this horrid law, but you're not convincing anyone. President Obama and the Democrats own it.
Quote: RonCYou can huff and puff and try to blame Republican ideas for this horrid law, but you're not convincing anyone.
I doubt if anyone can really do that, unless Jesus actually returns.
But the history is going to be linked to a Conservative think tank, regardless. Just as it will be linked to Romney. How much influence, I don't know, but forever linked.
It would have to be Republican Jesus.Quote: rxwineI doubt if anyone can really do that, unless Jesus actually returns.
Quote: s2dbakerIt would have to be Republican Jesus.
lol to go along with that some conservatives specifically Conservapedia has undertaken to rewriting the bible to remove some of the liberal bias http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/group-of-us-conservatives-rewrite-the-bible/article4290565/
Quote: rxwine
But the history is going to be linked to a Conservative think tank, regardless. Just as it will be linked to Romney. How much influence, I don't know, but forever linked.
The only ones who will link it to Romney are liberals trying to change the subject. It is "Obamacare" and the Democrats own it. It will be remembered as passing with no GOP support in either chamber. That you are now trying to link it to Romney shows what a failure it has become.
You can tell someone's information level by their reaction:
Low Information Obama Voter: "I thought this was going to be free?"
Semi-Low Information Voter: "I thought this was going to let me save money and keep my doctor?"
Conservative: "This is about what I expected, but wait until it gets worse next year!"
Quote: AZDuffmanIt will be remembered as passing with no GOP support in either chamber.
This is the elephant in the room the Libs
never mention. It didn't get a single GOP
vote in either chamber, which is astounding.
The ones they interviewed said the law was
so bad, such a mess and so doomed to
failure, nobody wanted their name on it
from the Right. A lot of Dem's didn't either,
but Obama bribed and threatened them
to go along.
The GOP was 100% sure it would fail and
wanted no part of it. I'm 50% convinced
Obama didn't want a 2nd term because he
knew it would fail too. He wanted to be gone
so he could blame the new GOP president.
Oops, now he has to endure 3 years of
crap on a daily basis.
+1Quote: AZDuffmanThe only ones who will link it to Romney are liberals trying to change the subject.
Liberals (like the ones on this forum) love to shift the whole argument.
Quote: boymimboelecting not to have health insurance is a tax to everyone who does have health insurance
This is not true. When I needed a test done earlier this year, my doctor wanted me to have a cat scan but as a courtesy he called the hospital first to find out how much it would cost me. He said it should be around $1500, but it was actually $4500. He then remembered, and informed me, that the uninsured are always charged more because insurance companies negotiate prices down. In other words, the uninsured are forced to pick up the slack. So I guess it's moot for me to complain since, insured or not, I'm always subsidizing somebody, whether it is through a 200% markup on medical bills or a compulsory $7,000/year tax hike.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe only ones who will link it to Romney are liberals trying to change the subject. It is "Obamacare" and the Democrats own it.
I'm chiming in not to stir anything up, but just to say that I lived in Massachusetts when Romney implemented mandatory health insurance there. I chose to just pay the tax penalty since it was much cheaper than obtaining the health insurance. With Obamacare, the tax penalty for me is roughly the same as the cost of the health insurance ($6800/year tax penalty vs $7000/year for the insurance).
Quote: AZDuffmanThe only ones who will link it to Romney are liberals trying to change the subject. It is "Obamacare" and the Democrats own it. It will be remembered as passing with no GOP support in either chamber. That you are now trying to link it to Romney shows what a failure it has become."
Okay, historians will still link it to Romney. There's more than enough evidence out there that it would be revisionism not to.
The slightest taint of anything wrong gets linked to Obama anyway. I'm just using the standard usually applied in his case. It's not even a stretch. I don't have to search for hidden records, or relatives or try to find out what someone did in college.
Quote: JBI'm chiming in not to stir anything up, but just to say that I lived in Massachusetts when Romney implemented mandatory health insurance there. I chose to just pay the tax penalty since it was much cheaper than obtaining the health insurance. With Obamacare, the tax penalty for me is roughly the same as the cost of the health insurance ($6800/year tax penalty vs $7000/year for the insurance).
I thought the penalty the first year was $95. And they
can only get it from your tax refund. If you don't get
a refund, no penalty.
For once, EvenBob is correct. Further, you can claim the conscience clause for your deeply held belief that Obamacare is against the will of your flavor of god. Since they carved out the exemption for the Mennonites and Amish, the same applies to anyone with a religious belief otherwise it violates the establishment clause in the first amendment.Quote: EvenBobI thought the penalty the first year was $95. And they
can only get it from your tax refund. If you don't get
a refund, no penalty.
Quote: EvenBobI thought the penalty the first year was $95. And they
can only get it from your tax refund. If you don't get
a refund, no penalty.
...and yet another dumb part of the law. How can you have a "penalty" that can only be collected when you get an income tax refund? I guess that is aimed at lower class folks who get the earned income tax credit and others who consistently get refunds because of their low income. Most anyone above that level can avoid having a refund by adjusting withholding to get to zero or even owing a little.
I can't wait to hear the defense of this portion of the law...
Quote: rxwineI doubt if anyone can really do that, unless Jesus actually returns.
But the history is going to be linked to a Conservative think tank, regardless. Just as it will be linked to Romney. How much influence, I don't know, but forever linked.
It will have minor mentions of the origins of some ideas coming from others and then major blame for the fiasco that came of those ideas when written into one of the worst pieces of legislation of our lifetimes.
I'm not saying that some other ideas weren't used when everyone was tossing around how to write the bill or that others mentioned "mandate" before; my point is that you cannot remove the stain of this bill from President Obama and put it elsewhere. There are lots of ideas out there--the people who make them law are the ones who get credit for how they work out because a law is much more than just an idea...it is something that actual has to work or it turns into a mess like we have now.
No one in the world outside the beltway and the small space you occupy is going to blame this on the Heritage Foundation, the conservatives, or even Romney. Split hairs all day if you'd like; it won't change anything.
If the law were working out better would you even be bothering to try to spread the credit?
Quote: rxwineOkay, historians will still link it to Romney. There's more than enough evidence out there that it would be revisionism not to.
Those that try to link it to Romney or Conservatives will be laughed out of the room, just as those trying to make that link here are being laughed off of any credibility on this site.
You can try all you like to say that someone else came up with the idea, the fact of the matter is the common name for the law is "Obamacare," the Democrats own it 100%, and the GOP are the ones who tried to stop it. That the GOP tried to stop it is not in dispute because Obama himself stated as much on any number of occasions.
So, next year do you think people are going to say, "I lost my health plan at work because of the Obamacare plan. I am never voting GOP again because it was the idea of the Heritage Foundation!"
It isn't "1984" yet no matter how much closer and closer it feels.
Quote: RonC.... Most anyone above that level can avoid having a refund by adjusting withholding to get to zero or even owing a little.
.
My wife never gets a refund because she claims
more dependents than she has. She loves getting
the extra money every week in her paycheck, and
sets some aside to pay the IRS when she files in Ap.
+1Quote: AZDuffmanSo, next year do you think people are going to say, "I lost my health plan at work because of the Obamacare plan. I am never voting GOP again because it was the idea of the Heritage Foundation!"
LOL!!!
Quote: EvenBobI thought the penalty the first year was $95. And they
can only get it from your tax refund. If you don't get
a refund, no penalty.
Quote: s2dbakerFor once, EvenBob is correct.
Nope, the penalty per month (not year) is $95 or 1% of your taxable income, whichever is greater. That makes my monthly penalty almost exactly the same as the cost of the insurance, so I may as well get the insurance. A perfect example of a Hobson's choice.
Quote: JBNope, the penalty per month (not year) is $95 or 1% of your taxable income, whichever is greater. That makes my monthly penalty almost exactly the same as the cost of the insurance, so I may as well get the insurance.
"The Obamacare Penalty: Yes, It Can Be Avoided"
Darnit! I had hoped beyond hope that EvenBob had finally gotten something right.Quote: JBNope, the penalty per month (not year) is $95 or 1% of your taxable income, whichever is greater. That makes my monthly penalty almost exactly the same as the cost of the insurance, so I may as well get the insurance. A perfect example of a Hobson's choice.
Could you point to the info that says that it's a monthly 1% penalty? I only thing I can find about "monthly" is prorating the 1% penalty. So if you don't have Obamacare for 6 months then you only have to pay 0.5% or $95 whichever is greater.
