Obamacare

Quote: AZDuffman

Yes, people might actually have to rejoin the labor force instead of being on the dole.

If only that were true, but it's not.

Quote: s2dbaker

If only that were true, but it's not.

Maybe you are right, once you encourage a person on the dole the way Obama has there really is no getting them off and back to work.

Of course people will have to go back to work. Liberals don't understand that the government doesn't produce any value. They see the government as a benevolent ATM with inexhaustible resources that you never have to pay back. The rare times liberals are able to see beyond their wide eyed, simplistic, first level "me me me me" thinking they still can't understand all the government does is take money from people who earn it and, now with obama, redistribute it to people that don't have any desire or incentive to work. We're moving these last few years more and more towards a country of people who found life too hard to navigate and believe it's easier to sit around with their hand out. Under obama we're moving further and further away from people who have self worth and like to earn their keep. Unfortunately for the liberal utopia, such people are the funding for all the freebies and as they're depleted all the freebies will slow down to a trickle then vanish.

Quote: AZDuffman

Maybe you are right, once you encourage a person on the dole the way Obama has there really is no getting them off and back to work.

Another statement straight from the heart of a conservative.

Quote: s2dbaker

Another statement straight from the heart of a conservative.

In you're part of the country the people
on welfare and food stamps are jonsing
to get a job? Sure they are. Just like you're
the only one getting a good deal on
Obummercare.

Quote: EvenBob

In you're part of the country the people
on welfare and food stamps are jonsing
to get a job? Sure they are. Just like you're
the only one getting a good deal on
Obummercare.

Since I have to take your post seriously then I have to assume that you believe that by and large, people who require assistance from the government would rather receive the assistance than try to get off government assistance. That's the difference between conservatives and liberals, Conservatives believe that people are evil and liberals believe that people are good. It's likely because conservatives are evil and project evil onto others and liberals are good and project goodness onto others.

Quote: s2dbaker

That's the difference between conservatives and liberals, Conservatives believe that people are evil and liberals believe that people are good. It's likely because conservatives are evil and project evil onto others and liberals are good and project goodness onto others.

I hope you aren't serious. Do you really feel this way?

Quote: s2dbaker

It's likely because conservatives are evil and project evil onto others and liberals are good and project goodness onto others.

Good god. Are you 12 years old? Is your cranium really
stuck that far up the Twilight Zone? You
actually believe all the BS talking points put out by
the left. Remarkable. No, it's unbelievable. You
must be kidding around, you can't be that naive.

Quote: Twirdman

Yeah cause its equal oh wait W took roughly 4 days as many vacation days http://seancolarossi.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/obama-vs-bush-on-vacation-days/ lets just call it even though right. The problem wasn't W took vacations its that he took vastly more than basically any other president.

I don't really care how many days any of them spend away from the White House. I do care if there seems to be an inattention to their duties as President while they are away. It is convenient to talk about other Presidents to obscure what this President is doing, but it does no good. Their jobs are done; he is still on the job.

I don't think this President has spent enough time in Washington or elsewhere really trying to fix the problem that is Obamacare. With all the waivers (loopholes to get out of signing up) and confusion, it is like he didn't understand that we were already tired of the confusion of the tax code--his signature program is mess and he isn't doing enough about it.

Quote: s2dbaker

Since I have to take your post seriously then I have to assume that you believe that by and large, people who require assistance from the government would rather receive the assistance than try to get off government assistance.

The 1996 Welfare Reform Act proved this to be true. And for that matter the posts from those suggesting we raise the minimum wage prove it to be true.

It is the same as feeding the geese. Feed them and they become dependent on others for food and forget how to survive on their own.

Quote: AZDuffman

It is the same as feeding the geese. Feed them and they become dependent on others for food and forget how to survive on their own.

So people are the same as geese. This is how conservatives think?

Quote: s2dbaker

Conservatives believe that people are evil.....It's likely because conservatives are evil and project evil onto others...

Notice how kind, loving & tolerant liberals are? (wink wink)

Quote: AZDuffman

It is the same as feeding the geese. Feed them and they become dependent on others for food and forget how to survive on their own.

Quote: s2dbaker

So people are the same as geese. This is how conservatives think?

It is amazing how many times you can figure out a way to call a conservative names or to find a way to toss in an insult. Is it impossible for you to disagree and present an argument for your position instead of calling names? It really is old...conservative/evil and liberal/kind...if only it were anywhere close to the truth it might be worth saying, but it is far from the truth.

Liberals/Progressives seem to think that the government can provide everything for the people but they fail to consider (or at least seem to do so) that the more anyone is dependent upon the government the less likely they are to do for themselves. If the government provides a living for nothing that is nearly equal to that provided by someone working 40 hours, many (not all...but too many) will choose to not work instead of trying to get a job and move beyond the government check.

A clinician I know has trouble getting these types of people--of all races--to come in with their kids early in the morning because they just don't feel like getting up so darned early. We have created a bunch of lazy bums that I am pretty sure the liberals/progressives will say doesn't really exist and I am equally sure was not the "intention" of the various welfare programs.

Obamacare is typical. The idea behind it--get everyone health care--sounds good. The reality of it is that it is yet another poorly conceived, badly designed, enormous attempt to do something that will not work as intended. Well, except in Harry Reid's world--he has already said that it is going to fail and we'll end up with a "single payer" system**. That may have been the liberal/progressive end game all along...yet another lie from the President and his gang of thieves.

The President has created yet another mess. The jobless rate has gone down, but many jobs that have been created are part time jobs with lower wages--not the kind of jobs needed to put America back to work. Obamacare is one of the causes of this.

..and the liberal/progressives, sadly, can only say "we won"...what a freaking joke. Your "win", aided by liberal/progressive RINO candidates has fixed nothing and is doing harm to the country. Your best answers are still to blame Bush, insult any true conservative position instead of presenting a real argument, and to accept the poor performance of the President instead of demanding that he do better.


**“What we’ve done with Obamacare is have a step in the right direction, but we’re far from having something that’s going to work forever,” Reid said.

When then asked by panelist Steve Sebelius whether he meant ultimately the country would have to have a health care system that abandoned insurance as the means of accessing it, Reid said: “Yes, yes. Absolutely, yes.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/harry-reid-and-tom-coburn-agree-obamacare-was-designed-fail-pave-way-single-payer_745908.html#

Conservatives want to put everybody in jail. Liberals want everyone to have a free turkey.

Try Libertarianism.....minding your own business is good for the soul.

Quote: s2dbaker

So people are the same as geese. This is how conservatives think?

As any person who has taken a college or even high school level psyc class knows this is the case with any animal. It is learned dependency. Please at least look it up before making such a comment as you did above.

Quote: RonC

A clinician I know has trouble getting these types of people--of all races--to come in with their kids early in the morning because they just don't feel like getting up so darned early. We have created a bunch of lazy bums that I am pretty sure the liberals/progressives will say doesn't really exist and I am equally sure was not the "intention" of the various welfare programs.

I have heard the same thing from several sources. Social workers will tell the people who show promise to get to the office early and they will be in and out, the slugs would rather sleep in and wait in line all afternoon. The other thing is not only do we create lazy bums, but they tend to be the most rude and demanding people when they are in any position of being the customer, whether at Wal-Mart or if you are doing service to their public housing unit.

It's amazing how liberals believe not accepting the truth means it isn't the truth.

Conservatives appear to have a very myopic view on what life is like within their country. Try looking at what other countries are doing with health care. In every other western country, there is socialized medicine, with generally better statistical indicators than the United States. They are providing better and more efficient health care to every citizen for less money.

The end result of this is "health security", that is, being able to live ones life worrying about a dire financial consequences if one becomes sick throughout their lives. It must feel like how reaching the age where you qualify for MediCare feels in the United States. There are hundreds of millions of people in the rest of the world who don't wake up thinking about how they will afford health care if they get catastrophically ill.

I look at my health plan with my company. In Canada I pay nothing for my health insurance. It's an invisible tax piled on to my tax bill which amounts for me to about $6,400 in 2011 based on income well north of $100K. My wife and daughter pay nothing. At my company, for my family coverage, I would pay $3,000 for insurance plus about $2,000 in out of pocket/deductable expenses while my company would contribute another $8,000. It would be cheaper personally for me to live in the United States because I am paying less overall BASED on my INCOME, but my company contributes $9,000 to my health care expenses each year.

US companies have to compete with the rest of the world where employee costs are lower which creates a major competitive disadvantage. So companies try to download costs onto their employees to compete and let the employees deal with health care insecurity.

And that's a real argument for socialized medicine. You *must* drive down the costs of health care in the United States somehow, and every other westernized country has managed to do so via that mechanism. Otherwise American companies cannot compete well with the rest of the world, and to try to compete they must (a) outsource (b) push costs back to the employee, both of which are major detriments to the american worker ((unemployment) and the economy (less money to spend).

So I am waiting for valid conservative opinions on how to reduce health care costs in the United States. Obama presented his and it's a piece of crap.

Quote: boymimbo

Conservatives appear to have a very myopic view on what life is like within their country. Try looking at what other countries are doing with health care. In every other western country, there is socialized medicine, with generally better statistical indicators than the United States. They are providing better and more efficient health care to every citizen for less money.

Not really. As has been shown here many times they are providing cheaper care by rationing care, reducing choice, and increasing wait times. The Americans who want this think it is "free health care." The rest of us prefer the choices we have.

Quote:

So I am waiting for valid conservative opinions on how to reduce health care costs in the United States. Obama presented his and it's a piece of crap.

I have given my proposal many times. Get off the employer system and pay folks the money directly, then let them make their own choices as to what they want to buy. If "cheap" is your goal you can go to a clinic and wait all day. If the best service is your goal they you can get a doctor who may charge $10,000 per year for concierge service. Or anything in between.

But keep the government out of it, socialized medicine is just one more way for governments to have power over the individual. I have no desire to be a slave to government in yet one more way. If that means I have to live life wondering "what will happen if I get sick" then so be it.

It was "Give me liberty or give me death" not "Give me liberty or give me socialized medicine."

Quote: AZDuffman

I have heard the same thing from several sources. Social workers will tell the people who show promise to get to the office early and they will be in and out, the slugs would rather sleep in and wait in line all afternoon. The other thing is not only do we create lazy bums, but they tend to be the most rude and demanding people when they are in any position of being the customer, whether at Wal-Mart or if you are doing service to their public housing unit.

You've also heard that Japanese people have trouble pronouncing the phrase 'Fried Rice'. Your word means nothing here.

Quote: s2dbaker

You've also heard that Japanese people have trouble pronouncing the phrase 'Fried Rice'. Your word means nothing here.

This is the kind of response that has become typical. Toss in a little insult and ignore the point--the welfare state has created a group of people that are lazy and contribute nothing to society but a bunch of kids they cannot afford to have. Not all of them are like that but there enough of them to make it an issue.

Do you agree or disagree?

Quote: RonC

-the welfare state has created a group of people that are lazy and contribute nothing to society but a bunch of kids they cannot afford to have. Not all of them are like that but there enough of them to make it an issue.

Do you agree or disagree?

So what are you going to do?

You can control their liberty and force them not to get pregnant somehow, or you can take away funds and put kids on the street. Are these your alternatives?

How do you control liberty anyway? Create poverty, so it looks like the streets of third world countries with street urchins and lots of shanty towns?

Quote: RonC

This is the kind of response that has become typical. Toss in a little insult and ignore the point

Well RonC, AzDuffman decided to use an anecdote to prove that he was right I pointed to a previous anecdote by AzDuffman that was in fact completely false thereby reinforcing the case that any anecdote that AzDuffman has to offer in support of his position is suspect at best and probably just pulled out from where the sun don't shine. I did not ignore the point, I merely showed how ridiculous the premise was because it was based on geese equaling humans. Geese are not Humans. Humans can reason, geese can not. Humans can hope for a better life for themselves, one where they control their own destiny, where they can show their children that they have value to society at large. Geese can not.

Quote: RonC

--the welfare state has created a group of people that are lazy and contribute nothing to society but a bunch of kids they cannot afford to have. Not all of them are like that but there enough of them to make it an issue.

Do you agree or disagree?

I disagree. People by and large don't want to be on government assistance. I've been on unemployment twice in my life. I didn't like it but I was glad for it. I'm not on unemployment now and I'm very happy about that. I'm also very happy that if I need it, unemployment insurance is there to help me out. I've experienced it. It's a good program.

I've never needed "welfare" or "food stamps" but I'm happy that if I do need government assistance of that nature at some point, I will be able to get it. I will also, very likely (since I can't know until it happens) do all that I can do to get out of that program.

I also believe that I am not unique.

Quote: s2dbaker

Well RonC, AzDuffman decided to use an anecdote to prove that he was right I pointed to a previous anecdote by AzDuffman that was in fact completely false thereby reinforcing the case that any anecdote that AzDuffman has to offer in support of
his position is suspect at best and probably just pulled out from where the sun don't shine.

Uh, no. You pointed to an anecdote you believed to be false but where you ended up looking foolish because native Japanese speakers do indeed have problems with the "R" sound in English. I additionally backed this up by stating that in Japan Ronald McDonald is known as "Donald McDonald." You replied by saying my anecdote never happened. If you want to keep looking foolish by stating what I knew to have happened and back up with examples of why by just saying, "It never happened" feel free. It is you and not I who is looking silly here.

Quote:

I did not ignore the point, I merely showed how ridiculous the premise was because it was based on geese equaling humans. Geese are not Humans. Humans can reason, geese can not. Humans can hope for a better life for themselves, one where they control their own destiny, where they can show their children that they have value to society at large. Geese can not.

Humans that learn to depend on government or another person become the same as geese who are fed. You are using one of liberals favorite attacks on a statement, namely you think that if a general statement is proven wrong once it is wrong always. But such a statement is not a math problem. Anyone who knows human nature knows this happens.

But to blow your point away even more, geese are born with an instinct to fend for themselves. Humans do not have this instinct. So to get geese dependent should be even more hard than to get humans dependent, right?

Quote: AZDuffman

Uh, no. You pointed to an anecdote you believed to be false but where you ended up looking foolish because native Japanese speakers do indeed have problems with the "R" sound in English.

Japanese people do not have a problem with the R sound in english. You are wrong and no matter how many times that you insist that your anecdote is true, it is false and always will be.

Quote: AZDuffman

Humans that learn to depend on government or another person become the same as geese who are fed.

Thanks for making my point yet again by restating your ridiculous premise.

Quote: s2dbaker

Japanese people do not have a problem with the R sound in english. You are wrong and no matter how many times that you insist that your anecdote is true, it is false and always will be.

From the Wikipedia article on Ronald McDonald:

"In Japan, Ronald McDonald is called Donald McDonald due to a lack of a clear "r" sound in Japanese."

From about.com:

"The Japanese "r" is different from the English "r". The sound is sort of between the English "r" and "l". To make "r" sound, start to say "l", but make your tongue stop short of the roof of your mouth, almost in the English "d" position. It is more like the Spanish "r."

The Japanese have trouble to pronounce and tell the difference between the English "r" and "l' because these sounds don't exist in Japanese.

Keep saying I am incorrect, you are the one looking foolish, not me,

Quote: AZDuffman

Keep saying I am incorrect, you are the one looking foolish, not me,

You keep saying that and keep looking more and more foolish.

Quote: s2dbaker

You keep saying that and keep looking more and more foolish.

Right, because I back up my point with facts and you just keep saying "no it isn't."

Quote: AZDuffman

Right, because I back up my point with facts and you just keep saying "no it isn't."

You used an anecdote that was untrue and keep flailing about while pitifully and painfully trying to defend your ridiculous assertion that Japanese people have trouble with the R sound.

Quote: AZDuffman

Right, because I back up my point with facts and you just keep saying "no it isn't."

I hear you. There's a guy in another thread who just said that he knows more about Catholic doctrine than a Catholic priest. SMH

Quote:

Japanese people have trouble with the R sound.

Yes, my Japanese friends will tell you that they indeed do have trouble with it.

Quote: Beethoven9th

I hear you. There's a guy in another thread who just said that he knows more about Catholic doctrine than a Catholic priest. SMH

There are people who think they saved money with an Obamacare policy as well. What can we do?

It's unbelievable. We have a liberal in this thread who shifts the argument from Obamacare to Japanese people pronouncing R's, and in the other thread, another liberal shifts his argument from Phil Robertson to abortion. Then, even when you prove them wrong, they go on to the next (random) subject!

The old Slaughterhouse Five tactic.

Quote: Beethoven9th

It's unbelievable. We have a liberal in this thread who shifts the argument from Obamacare to Japanese people pronouncing R's, and in the other thread, another liberal shifts his argument from Phil Robertson to abortion. Then, even when you prove them wrong, they go on to the next (random) subject!

Obamacare has become something very hard to make a positive argument about...

Quote: RonC

Obamacare has become something very hard to make a positive argument about...

Then you don't have to vote for him ever again :)

Quote: s2dbaker

Then you don't have to vote for him ever again :)

Thank you for helping make my point!!

Indeed, I am glad that you will never have the opportunity to vote for him again. You just might do so if it were allowed...

Quote: RonC

Obamacare has become something very hard to make a positive argument about...

How is paying more and getting less in any way
positive. I heard that only 14% of the population
understands how a deductible works. If you make
$25,000 a year and have a $6000 deductible, you
don't have insurance, because people who make
$25K don't have $6K laying around to spend on
healthcare. If you have to go for surgery, and it costs
$12K, Obamacare won't pick up the rest of it until
you pay the $6K deductible. So lots of people who
think they have coverage will go bankrupt. It's a
swell place we're headed to.

An obama spokesperson 2 weeks ago on a sunday morning news show....was backed into a corner....and had to explain that obama didnt lie when he said that we could all keep our doctors if we wanted to.

His explanation was..that its true. We can all keep our doctors if we lose them with the new plan....just by signing up for theplan, but not using it and bypassing the plan and paying our doctirs directly.

makes sense...technically we can all keep our doctors by signing up for obamacare and then shelving it and paying for our doctors out of pocket...full price.

if anyone thought this is what he meant by "keeping our doctor".....u think obama care would have passed?

Quote: LarryS

His explanation was..that its true. We can all keep our doctors if we lose them with the new plan....just by signing up for theplan, but not using it and bypassing the plan and paying our doctirs directly.

He said we can keep our doctor if we want to pay
extra for him. Well, duh, no kidding. Why have
the insurance then. Pay him directly and when
you get really sick, get Obamacare. They can't
turn you down for a pre-existing condition. Yeah,
this is turning into a bigger fiasco than we can
possibly imagine.

Quote: EvenBob

He said we can keep our doctor if we want to pay
extra for him. Well, duh, no kidding. Why have
the insurance then. Pay him directly and when
you get really sick, get Obamacare. They can't
turn you down for a pre-existing condition. Yeah,
this is turning into a bigger fiasco than we can
possibly imagine.

yes so if you are due for bypass surgery, and you want your regular cardiologist surgeon that you have seen for the last 20 years doing the surgery, and if your obamacare plan doesnt have your cardiologist in the network....its simple..just pay your cardiologist surgeon 200k out of pocket...and smile and know that obama didnt lie to you....you indeed can keep your doctor if your choose.

the very wealthy people can do this.

The very wealthy wont be inconvenienced by obamacare.

But the little people, the ones that voted for Obama ...willbe hurt the most. They cant afford to pay out of pocket to keep their doctor as promised by obama, and they will be impacted the most by the higher deductables.

In order to cut costs, many insurance companies are going away from a flat copay, and to charging 20-50 percent for prescription meds.
So the people who have high costing meds pay a higher copay than the people receiving cheaper meds.

People on HIV meds are getting hammerd....paying hundreds more for their meds per month than before

gays and lower income people helped put obama in office....and now they seem to be paying for it..litterally.(with the rest of us)

So, As Jay Carney would say, "obama treats everyone as equals, rich and poor alike". Good to see him veer from his divisive politics for once and screw everybody equally.

Obamacare...built on the lies of our President...

He said this firmly a while back:

"I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes."

President Barack Obama

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/

The plan that we had to pass in order to find out what is in it is yet another group of taxes on those he promised would not have ANY FORM of tax increase:

"The new taxes and fees include a 2 percent levy on every health plan, which is expected to net about $8 billion for the government in 2014 and increase to $14.3 billion in 2018."

http://nypost.com/2013/12/25/new-obamacare-fees-coming-in-2014/

Maybe he doesn't count this one because the law was already passed?

Quote: RonC

Obamacare...built on the lies of our President...

But when you have 65 million people who are stupid enough to vote for you, you can get away with it. :D

Quote: Beethoven9th

But when you have 65 million people who are stupid enough to vote for you, you can get away with it. :D

Charles Krauthammer, an extremely smart guy, was
a died in the wool Jewish lib until Reagan was president.
He started examining what Reagan was doing and decided
nobody who actually looks at the issues rationally, without
emotion, can be a Liberal. He became a conservative and
can give a hundred reasons why. The term 'bleeding heart
Liberal' is still with us for a reason. They make their choices
out of emotion, and that never ends well for anybody. Look
at Obamacare.

Liberals live in a dream world. Conservatives live in the real world.

Quote: anonimuss

Liberals live in a dream world. Conservatives live in the real world.

There are some people who believe Liberalism
is a form of mental illness. It doesn't work, it's
never worked and never will work. Yet people
keep thinking it will. That's what mental illness
is, why you deny the facts and think if you jump
off the barn you really will fly.

Quote: anonimuss

Liberals live in a dream world. Conservatives live in the real world.

Liberals claim to be "about people" all the time, but they have zero understanding of human nature. They do not understand if you fix the price of anything from gasoline to health care supply will dry up as providers refuse to work for free. They do not understand when you give people free housing they do not care about it and generally destroy the place. They do not understand that if you make an employer pay a higher wage and health insurance they will hire fewer people to make up for it. They miss what the rest of us see from the beginning every time.

And pure Laizze Faire capitalism has failed. Look at all the problems industry had before regulations. Meatpacking being probably the worst. Also most economist agree that an increase in minimum wage does not necessarily lead to an increase in unemployment. There is simply no statistically significant correlation between the two.

Quote: Twirdman

Also most economist agree that an increase in minimum wage does not necessarily lead to an increase in unemployment. There is simply no statistically significant correlation between the two.

Higher cost = lower demand.

That is the correlation. A child can understand it.

Quote: AZDuffman

Higher cost = lower demand.

That is the correlation. A child can understand it.

Thats the problem it is a childish understanding of an incredibly complex topic. http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf now I would comment that saying there is no statisitically significant effect is not the same as saying there is no effect. Just pointing out you can't say with certainty that the two are related.