Obamacare
Nice to see the conservatives speaking for the young voters on this here board. I'm going to take your word for it that you believe what you just stated. Now, perhaps a conservative would like to tell us why women voted for Obama. (Getting the popcorn).Quote: anonimussTo be fair, a lot of young voters supported obama because they thought it meant they would be able sit around stoned all day collecting government handouts.
Looks like LarryS has gone Godwin on Mission146. At least he didn't mention Adolph by name.Quote: LarrySthat game could be played with any statement
Nazis killed millions of jews in the 40's
WAIT..i just want to say that Nazis didnt kill every single jew
Quote: s2dbakerNow, perhaps a conservative would like to tell us why women voted for Obama. (Getting the popcorn).
One word: abortion
Hahahahaha!
Quote: Beethoven9thOregon signs up just 44 people for Obamacare despite spending $300 million
Hahahahaha!
It's because Obamacare isn't 'free' and now everybody
knows it. Oregon is the big nanny state, if it was free
they all would be signed up.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: Beethoven9thOregon signs up just 44 people for Obamacare despite spending $300 million
Hahahahaha!
It's because Obamacare isn't 'free' and now everybody
knows it. Oregon is the big nanny state, if it was free
they all would be signed up.
thats right some people thought it was gonna be free. Otheres thought the costs would go down.
You see, obama said his plan was gonna hold down costs. And they do hold down costs. The hold down the fees doctors can get for theior services from insurance companies. They hold down the fees hospitals can get from the insurance companies.
if that was all that was going on, the insurance companies could pass that savings on to us.HOWEVER since insurance companies are paying alot more money on medica costl being forced to take people with pre-exisiting conditions ///they also pass THAT on to us. And THAT cost greatly exceeds the savings in fees for indivdual services.
So people were snowed with that idea that costs would go down. Yes indiviual costs per service goes down, but overall usage of medical services goes up greatly causing our expenses to go up.
people in the know who knew this was coming had the best slogan
"if you thought medical care is expensive now.....just wait till its free"
I'm not a follower and therefore acknowledge that Buffet and or Gates can be wrong, amongst others, but I will give this an opportunity to work.
Quote: steeldcoIt seems that no one wants to answer this so I'll just assume that I am correct. So here's the thing, do I believe someone who is successful and has proven to have financial and economic acumen, that happens to believe that something needed to be done and that they support Obamacare, or a bunch of anonymous people who post so often that their fingers must be bleeding from all of the typing? I do not say with 100% certainty that Obamacare will work, but then again I see nothing so far that points to it completely failing. Tough call.....Buffet and Gates VS. Narrow Minded Anonymous People with agendas.....LOL.
No one answered because it was a s2pid point. And you just confirmed how s2pid it is.
FYI, the Koch brothers—who together are worth more than Gates or Buffett—oppose Obamacare, yet somehow I don't think this will convince you to join them in opposing it. Sounds like you only favor billionaires who SUPPORT what you already believe. *facepalm*
You had to ask a s2pid question just to make the simple point that "there are great minds on both sides of the debate"???? LOLQuote: steeldcoThanks for making my point. There are great minds on both sides of the debate.
That deserves another *facepalm*
Once again, here's my point, you have no friggin' idea whether or not Obamacare will work. You'd like it not to, but you don't know. Get it? Is that a little plainer for you?
That's the only thing your side seems to understand. ;)Quote: steeldcoYou do have a difficult time with reading comprehension, don't you? LOLOL....*facepalm*....how friggin' childish.
Once again, what does this have to do with Bill Gates and Warren Buffett?Quote: steeldcoOnce again, here's my point, you have no friggin' idea whether or not Obamacare will work.
Answer: NOTHING. (Which is why it was s2pid to even bring them up)
That's as s2pid as saying that I have to suffocate myself in order to prove that I need air.Quote: steeldcoYou'd like it not to, but you don't know. Get it? Is that a little plainer for you?
*EDIT: I almost forgot: *facepalm*
Quote: steeldcoyou have no friggin' idea whether or not Obamacare will work.
Sure we do. Forget everything else, forget the high
prices, forget doctors dropping out or refusing to
take Obamacare. Forget all of it. Obamacare won't
work because they'll never (NEVER) get enough
young healthy people to sign up. They're avoiding
it like the plague, and no amount of sweet talking
will ever convince them to join. This guarantee's
Obamacare tanking, it's the Titanic and it just hit
the iceberg.
Car insurance works because 95% of drivers never
have accidents. Health insurance works because the
majority of people paying in don't need it. Those
people aren't singing up for Obamacare. Oops....
Quote: steeldcoYou do have a difficult time with reading comprehension, don't you? LOLOL....*facepalm*....how friggin' childish.
Once again, here's my point, you have no friggin' idea whether or not Obamacare will work. You'd like it not to, but you don't know. Get it? Is that a little plainer for you?
+1
I totally agree. Nobody knows how this is all gonna work out. I am taking a wait and see approach. I think in the end, there will be alot more positives then negatives. The whole health care situation thing was a mess in the past and the right were offering zero solutions. Lets give this system a chance.
I too am sick of the ridiculous "facepalm" comment. I actually find it insulting my intelligence. Its kind of a way for B9 to call a comment dumb.
I may be only semi-intelligent, but I'm not dumb.
Quote: EvenBobCar insurance works because 95% of drivers never
have accidents. Health insurance works because the
majority of people paying in don't need it. Those
people aren't singing up for Obamacare. Oops....
Next, steeldco will be asking for proof that 2 + 2 = 4
How so?Quote: terapinedI too am sick of the ridiculous "facepalm" comment. I actually find it insulting my intelligence
How else am I supposed to signify the fact that I cover my face with my palm when I read some of these posts? If you've got a better way, let me know, bro.
Quote: terapinedI think in the end, there will be alot more positives then negatives.
Really? Name some of the positives. I have a
whole page of negatives. The experts say that
even if Obamacare was working perfectly, there
would still be 30 million uninsured people. So lets
hear all those positives from this atrocity.
Quote: EvenBobSure we do.
EvenBob, you may believe that. You're certainly are entitled to your opinion. However, how do you reconcile that with the fact that there are some awfully bright people who take the opposite view? It certainly doesn't seem obvious to me, although I don't claim to be a genius. Too many bright minds on both sides tells me that nobody knows.
Knowing the EvenBob is always wrong, I am encouraged. The fact that EvenBob thinks that it will fail is the best endorsement that Obamacare can receive.Quote: EvenBobSure we do.
Quote: steeldcoEvenBob, you may believe that. You're certainly are entitled to your opinion.
It's not an opinion, it's happening. And will continue
to happen. Every poll they take on this says young
healthy people, even the ObamaZombies, are running
away from this as fast as they can. Who can blame
them.
In 2009, when this monstrosity was shoved into law,
Obama was a god to the young. That ship has sailed
long ago, they see him for the empty suit he is. Obama
thought he could rely on them. Oops again.
Quote: steeldcoIt seems that no one wants to answer this so I'll just assume that I am correct. So here's the thing, do I believe someone who is successful and has proven to have financial and economic acumen, that happens to believe that something needed to be done and that they support Obamacare, or a bunch of anonymous people who post so often that their fingers must be bleeding from all of the typing? I do not say with 100% certainty that Obamacare will work, but then again I see nothing so far that points to it completely failing. Tough call.....Buffet and Gates VS. Narrow Minded Anonymous People with agendas.....LOL.
I'm not a follower and therefore acknowledge that Buffet and or Gates can be wrong, amongst others, but I will give this an opportunity to work.
2 things can be qually true
1-something needed to be done in healthcare
2-obamacare is deleterious to peoples health and finances
You throw a pail of gasoline on a burning home, and when asked why you say "well something had to be done"
That line of defense of obamacare is illogical. It is possible to roll out a healthcare reform act that doesnt cause negative finacial and health consequences for many people who can least afford it. It is possible to do it in a waythat doesnt disrupt peoples therapies, doesnt negatively impact the general economy by forcing business to hire more part times and reduce full time. Its possible to do it in a way where you give the healthcare system many years and tax credits in order to ramp up facilities to accomodate millions more people. There is a way to do it without unleashing a website that doesnt work , making peoplehave to wait and wait in order to get healthcare. There is a way to roll out a program without lying to people and letting people be fully informed before voting on it. It is possible to roll out a plan that doesnt make people want to shy away from the medical field as a profession, taking away our best and brightest going into the future.
So in the wake of obamacare besides the increased costs to many and the angst generated from having to get a new md for many there will be long term consequences on our economy, and the quality of care in healthcare going foward.
Quote: terapined+1
I totally agree. Nobody knows how this is all gonna work out. I am taking a wait and see approach. I think in the end, there will be alot more positives then negatives. The whole health care situation thing was a mess in the past and the right were offering zero solutions. Lets give this system a chance.
I too am sick of the ridiculous "facepalm" comment. I actually find it insulting my intelligence. Its kind of a way for B9 to call a comment dumb.
I may be only semi-intelligent, but I'm not dumb.
That great take a "wait and see approach"....BUT TRY TO KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN.
Already as a direct result of obamacare and the new costs attached to it
Less full time jobs with benerfits are available, and freezes on hiring full timeers are occuring
Many people have higher deductables so if they uses healthcare they will be paying a couple thousand more a year.... I already know I will but I can afford it. I wont have to cut any spending because of it. However a family of 4 scraping by may feel differently about that 2k
Some people will feel the negative effect of losing the continuity of care by having to change MDs....sometimes more than one.
Since the size of the healthcare infrastructure has not increased, the system will be taxed with the influx of all these millions of people, some of which havent seen mds in years or decades, and will need alot of treatment and testing...this leads to the same amount of doctors and nurses handling million of people extra.....the time devoted to you will decrease as the assembly line of healthcare is speeded up. And the healthcare workers will just have to do the best they can to keep up.Quality will suffer in the ability to keep up with quantity
Personally I dont want to "wait and see" and just sit back and watch people suffer financially and healthwise.
others see the facts that I have layed out and say "well lets see what happens..maybe a fairy god mother will waive a wand and everything will be ok"
we have obamacare because of people like this who hide their head in the sand, wear dark tinted glasses, and ear plugs.....and as they eventually "sees what happens".....by that time its too late. By that time the hores is out of the barn, By that time you cant snap a finger and reverse it.
meanwhile while you "wait and see" people are losing their doctors, losing the ability for full time job, paying more for healthcare causing real hardshi for those folks already...HOW MUCH MORE DO U WANT TO "WAIT AND SEE"
Quote: terapined+1
The whole health care situation thing was a mess in the past and the right were offering zero solutions.
I suggest you do a simple google search and then you may revise this statement.
Quote: steeldcoLarry S, EvenBob, Beet, you guys are no brighter than the people taking the opposite point of view. .
What in gods name does brightness have to do with
anything? Poll after poll says the young healthy people
needed to make this work aren't going to participate.
WHY WOULD THEY???
How bright do you have to be to understand this? Once
the healthy people opt out, which they're doing right now,
Obamacare is doomed.
What a naive thing to say.Quote: steeldcoLarry S, EvenBob, Beet, you guys are no brighter than the people taking the opposite point of view. I'm not sure that I understand why that would be unless you have some other agenda since I don't believe any of you are dumb. But go ahead and knock yourselves out with all of the negative posts. I do happen to believe that what we had was broken, no.....decimated. I am willing to give this a chance. I also happen to believe that if Obamacare does miserably fail then the good and intelligent people of this country will get it changed.....apparently, none of you would have that same belief.
OK, I'm gonna use your logic. I say, let's all elect Ted Cruz as president in 2016. You laugh? How come??
You are no brighter than the people taking the opposite point of view of Cruz. I'm not sure that I understand why that would be unless you have some other agenda since I don't believe you are dumb. But go ahead and knock yourselves out with all of the negative posts about Cruz. I do happen to believe that what we have is broken, no.....decimated. I am willing to give Ted Cruz a chance. I also happen to believe that if Ted Cruz does miserably fail then the good and intelligent people of this country will get it changed.....apparently, you don't have that same belief.
Quote: Beethoven9thWhat a naive thing to say.
OK, I'm gonna use your logic. I say, let's all elect Ted Cruz as president in 2016. You laugh? How come??
You are no brighter than the people taking the opposite point of view of Cruz. I'm not sure that I understand why that would be unless you have some other agenda since I don't believe you are dumb. But go ahead and knock yourselves out with all of the negative posts about Cruz. I do happen to believe that what we have is broken, no.....decimated. I am willing to give Ted Cruz a chance. I also happen to believe that if Ted Cruz does miserably fail then the good and intelligent people of this country will get it changed.....apparently, you don't have that same belief.
In all honestly, the immaturity continues to show. You have no reasonable defense for insisting that you know what is best for the majority.
Quote: steeldcoLarry S, EvenBob, Beet, you guys are no brighter than the people taking the opposite point of view. I'm not sure that I understand why that would be unless you have some other agenda since I don't believe any of you are dumb. But go ahead and knock yourselves out with all of the negative posts. I do happen to believe that what we had was broken, no.....decimated. I am willing to give this a chance. I also happen to believe that if Obamacare does miserably fail then the good and intelligent people of this country will get it changed.....apparently, none of you would have that same belief.
No one ever claimed to be brighter...thats just a declaration you make to fog the issues.
And I am in healthcare for thelast 35 years. I speak from experience . My personal experience and the experience of talking to patients daily hearing their complaints and the real hardships they are going through.
I see my company putting a freeze on full timers. Should I think my company with 250k workers is any different that other companies out there?
I am personally goingto pay 2k more in healthcare a year. I dont mind. But the people I work with who will use healthcare like me and who make 10 dollars an hour will be hammered.
I have many patients that have been reduced to part time....and now has no prescription coverage and cant afford to pay for insurance from the obama website.
I have many patients that were one of the millions getting the cancellation letters, and know their frustration as theytried to get reinstated anywhere they could so that they could continue their therapies
I also know the people I work with, if they use healthcare and pay 2k extra a year, and get 10/hour.....will be spending less in the retail economy. This cant be good for future jobs and economic well being(now I agree that people that dont use healthcare will pay slightly lower premiums and be better off financially)
SO i SEE THINGS FIRST HAND.....and talk about it here.....and you take that as a claim that I am "brighter" than you.
I dont know....how about giving me some credentials that makes youropinion equal to my factual observations
I listed facts
dispute them
if you can then you are "brighter" or at least as "bright"
unlike you i dont have to "wait" and see,
I see it everyday...no waiting needed
and the longer we "wait"....the more hardship others will endure.
I will be fine...I can afford this new system. I just resent the fact that it will now be overburdened almost overnight, and an overburdened worker in any field leads to mistakes and oversights.....AND MISTAKES AND OVERSIGHTS....in healtcare lead to real real hardship...including the ultimate hardship....death
there were mistakes and oversights before obamacare....its just that now there will be more/
Quote: EvenBobWhat in gods name does brightness have to do with
anything?
EvenBob, really? You want to include the opinions of the less bright? What is your point? You don't care about the intelligence level of anyone taking part in the debate?
Quote: steeldcoYou have no reasonable defense
Glad to see you've finally admitted that your OWN argument is "no reasonable defense". Kudos!
Quote: steeldcoEvenBob, really? You want to include the opinions of the less bright? What is your point? You don't care about the intelligence level of anyone taking part in the debate?
you dont have to be "intellegent" in order to have empathy for millions of people adversely affected by obamacare
Quote: Beethoven9thGlad to see you've finally admitted that your OWN argument is "no reasonable defense". Kudos!
That's pretty much the type of response that I, and others, have learned to expect from you.
Quote: steeldcoThat's pretty much the type of response that I, and others, have learned to expect from you.
...and your naive arguments are pretty much the type of response that I, and others, have learned to expect from you.
Quote: LarrySNo one ever claimed to be brighter...thats just a declaration you make to fog the issues.
Even before AHA was passed however, prices in the health care sector have been increasing astronomically when compared to inflation. Deductables and out-of-pocket expenses were well on the rise before AHA was passed. My old company (EXPE) started clawing back benefits back in 2005 when I was working there and other companies have made the choice to do the same before and after AHA was passed.
There are three things raising the costs of healthcare due to AHA. One is the increase in medicare taxes for high income earners (>200K), another is a direct tax on health insurance providers which Aetna says increases costs across the board by between 2-3%, and the cost of covering those who had preexisting conditions and older "students" that could continue under family coverage. In any case, that shouldn't add up to 2K/year. If you are paying 2k more a year than last year for insurance, then you are being fleeced. If you are paying the same coverage but your deductable has increased, that is the insurance company passing the risk pool to the consumer, knowing from an actuarial standpoint that only n% of the population will use the deductable. You should be able to shop around to reduce your deductable. If your work plan is offering a shitty plan, then your work plan is offering a crappy plan. Don't blame AHA for that. They could have negotiated with the provider to keep the deductable the same and pass on the policy increase to you. They instead took the position to keep the cost the same and increase the deductable.
However, any healthcare initiative needed to be funded. Billing the health insurance companies directly probably was the most inane way to do so. Taxing high income Americans might have been the correct way to do so so that the cost to provide coverage by health insurance policies would not be spread back to the users.
Maybe. But it is a sure thing that we know what is bad and what doesn't work as advertised.Quote: steeldcoYou have no reasonable defense for insisting that you know what is best for the majority.
Quote: LarrySSO i SEE THINGS FIRST HAND.....and talk about it here.....
Do you belong to any of the professional pharmacist's associations and have they put out similar statements along the lines of your own views?
Quote: boymimboEven before AHA was passed however, prices in the health care sector have been increasing astronomically when compared to inflation. Deductables and out-of-pocket expenses were well on the rise before AHA was passed. My old company (EXPE) started clawing back benefits back in 2005 when I was working there and other companies have made the choice to do the same before and after AHA was passed.
There are three things raising the costs of healthcare due to AHA. One is the increase in medicare taxes for high income earners (>200K), another is a direct tax on health insurance providers which Aetna says increases costs across the board by between 2-3%, and the cost of covering those who had preexisting conditions and older "students" that could continue under family coverage. In any case, that shouldn't add up to 2K/year. If you are paying 2k more a year than last year for insurance, then you are being fleeced. If you are paying the same coverage but your deductable has increased, that is the insurance company passing the risk pool to the consumer, knowing from an actuarial standpoint that only n% of the population will use the deductable. You should be able to shop around to reduce your deductable. If your work plan is offering a shitty plan, then your work plan is offering a crappy plan. Don't blame AHA for that. They could have negotiated with the provider to keep the deductable the same and pass on the policy increase to you. They instead took the position to keep the cost the same and increase the deductable.
However, any healthcare initiative needed to be funded. Billing the health insurance companies directly probably was the most inane way to do so. Taxing high income Americans might have been the correct way to do so so that the cost to provide coverage by health insurance policies would not be spread back to the users.
My company pays the same dollars monthly per worker, and thats what can be afforded without getting policies that cost alot more pricing the majrity of the employees out of coverage. So this is what we have for the same monthly premiums. Which is in line with other people are reporting.
And we can talk about 2-3 percent increases here and there....but the real increase in healthcare cost comes from usage
right now Mexico and the united states are number 1 and number 2 as the top obese countries in the world.
As our health system is taxed by the obese citizens, and the obese illegal aliens.....we cry that the big bad healthcare people are getting rich/
Obese people have a high incidence of HYPERTENSION...and therefor a higher incidence of stroke, heart attack, high cholesterol, bypass surgery.
They also have a higher incidence of Diabetes, and therefore the associatred nervepain, medication/insuln usage(expensive), eye issues, circulation issues/amputations.
They have a higher incidence of lower weight baring joint problems...ankles, knees,,, REQUIRING TREATMENT, THERAPY, surgery, joint replacement
hip replacement.
And then all the obesity hinders people from getting a job, so it strains the economy, the welfare system.. and gives these unemplyable people free welfare medical which is totally free and there is no deductable....so there no real incentive to lose weight and get better.
Is it a fluke, a coincidence that every year USA and Mexico gets more and more obese...andevery year our health costs go up?
Sure taxes, and the cost of govt regulations, and cost of malpractice insurance and huge settlements and cost of living all combine to increase costs maybe 7 or 8 percent a year. But the cost of Obesity adds alot.
And on top of that
I read a report that it is projected that the medicare system can be bankrupted by 2020 just from Alzheimers alone.
Add the growing Alzheimers population and the growing obese population and all of a sudden the costs draining healthcare are not the greedy doctors, nurses and administrators.....its the general population using the resources.
no I dont,,,they cost 300 a year..and do nothing for me.
I dont know what they say
But I do know what I see.
Quote: SanchoPanzaMaybe. But it is a sure thing that we know what is bad and what doesn't work as advertised.
SanchoPanza, you have to keep in mind that we're barely into pre-game warm-ups let alone the 1st. inning of the game. At least that's my opinion.
We can disagree.
Quote: steeldcoSanchoPanza, you have to keep in mind that we're barely into pre-game warm-ups let alone the 1st. inning of the game.
Exactly! It will only get worse when the majority
of the public see's what this train wreck will cost
them. There will be an outcry like we've never
heard in this country. Hell, there already is.
Quote: SanchoPanzaMaybe. But it is a sure thing that we know what is bad and what doesn't work as advertised.
Quote: steeldcoSanchoPanza, you have to keep in mind that we're barely into pre-game warm-ups let alone the 1st. inning of the game.
Looks like steeldco is sitting in the stands during pre-game warm-ups, yet he's ignoring the storm clouds overhead. His response is, "No one knows for sure if it's going to rain! Let's just wait and see if it does!"
*Yes, another *facepalm*
Quote: Beethoven9thFirst off, Nixon coined the term "War on Drugs", but he didn't start it. Get the facts straight. .
Trying to get my facts straight.....as per your advice. So on my fact finding mission, I learned that the DEA was created in 1973 under an Executive Order signed by Nixon. Forty years and 700 or so billion dollars later.....how's it working?
Quote: treetopbuddyTrying to get my facts straight.....as per your advice. So on my fact finding mission, I learned that the DEA was created in 1973 under an Executive Order signed by Nixon. Forty years and 700 or so billion dollars later.....how's it working?
The War on Drugs is a fascinating topic on which I have much to say. But not here. I'd suggest not mixing threads because this would be a very large derail indeed.
Quote: EvenBobExactly! It will only get worse when the majority
of the public see's what this train wreck will cost
them. There will be an outcry like we've never
heard in this country. Hell, there already is.
correct..there is nothing that is going to happen that will make prices go down from todays rates.
There is no wand thatis going to be waived that will return millions of people to their previous MDs.
Millions of letters will not be sent out telling people "my bad....your increased deductables were in error"
what t he fk are we going to "wait and see"
I dont see obama making a public appearance telling us its all gonna get better. I dont see him telling us that its just a glitch in the system and his promise that we be able to keep our doctor will be upheld.
what are these people "waiting to see"
DO they think if doesnt get better, that superman will come along and reverse the revolution of earth on its axis and turn back time(I think christopher reeves did that once )
oh yeah....I know..."something had to be done"
Quote: EvenBobIt will only get worse when the majority
Sorry EvenBob, I don't believe that it will get worse....it may, but I don't think so.
Ever get involved in a start-up company? Endure the trials and tribulations of blazing a new path. Doing something different?
Sometimes feeling like you are drowning and need to bail out, but you end up being grateful that you didn't? Ever experience that?
Quote: FaceThe War on Drugs is a fascinating topic on which I have much to say. But not here. I'd suggest not mixing threads because this would be a very large derail indeed.
Read through thread and I'm partially responsible for temporarily derailing thread. My bad. I think the "should drugs be legalized" thread has been shut down?
Quote: steeldcoSorry EvenBob, I don't believe that it will get worse....it may, but I don't think so.
Ever get involved in a start-up company? Endure the trials and tribulations of blazing a new path. Doing something different?
Sometimes feeling like you are drowning and need to bail out, but you end up being grateful that you didn't? Ever experience that?
Yeah evenbob....ever get involved ina startup company over 100 years old, that was told by the govt new rules it had t go by, was told by the govt that you would have to provide an entitlement program for those who beforehand would not qualify for your business service. Didnt that happen to you.
And then after the crushing directive, you find that your expenses now are so high that you mustpass it on to your customers?
you mean to tell me you have not been involved in a start up company like this?
u are really sheltered.
Quote: steeldcoSanchoPanza, you have to keep in mind that we're barely into pre-game warm-ups let alone the 1st. inning of the game. At least that's my opinion.
We can disagree.
And the Titanic started as a trickle at the instant of impact.
