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rxwine
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November 15th, 2013 at 1:22:28 PM permalink
Quote: Beethoven9th

That begs the question. Native Americans as a whole don't care. Only the relative few want it changed.



LOL. What a stupid fucking answer. If cussing gets me a ban, I'll take it. That is truly lame.
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Beethoven9th
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November 15th, 2013 at 1:28:01 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

LOL. What a stupid fucking answer. If cussing gets me a ban, I'll take it. That is truly lame.


Actually, it was a stupid f*cking question for the reason I just gave. lol!

P.S.-Control yourself, man! :)
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rxwine
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November 15th, 2013 at 1:38:39 PM permalink
Hopefully, the teaparty thinks they can accomplish goals without rinos, moderates, because that makes the Democrats stronger. Yeah the native Americans need more numbers too, and at least they seem to accept outside help.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Beethoven9th
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November 15th, 2013 at 1:47:28 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Hopefully, the teaparty thinks they can accomplish goals without rinos, moderates, because that makes the Democrats stronger.


...stronger to eff things up. lol
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AZDuffman
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November 15th, 2013 at 2:01:14 PM permalink
Quote: Beethoven9th

So you agree that it's mostly white liberals??? That's a start.



White liberals always find someone to be offended for. In the late 1990s they decided Speedy Gonzales was "offensive to Mexicans" and got them pulled. Nobody bothered to notice that Speedy was actually popular in Mexico. Years earlier they decided "Amos and Andy" was racist and got it pulled. This despite it having blacks in leading roles and it being hugely popular with whites as well as blacks. The name characters are no more "stupid" than The Three Stooges, Ralph Cramden and Ed Norton, or any other number of silly shows and acts.
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Beethoven9th
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November 15th, 2013 at 2:04:42 PM permalink
More Obama navigator fraud:


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boymimbo
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November 15th, 2013 at 6:40:12 PM permalink
United Healthcare sold $107.2 billion of Premiums and Services in 2012 with Operating Medical Costs of $80.2 billion of a gross margin of about 25%.

If health insurance premiums are going up by 8-10% / year and your wages increase by 2% every year (at best), how do you defute the statement that health insurance premiums are eroding the middle class.

Health insurance in the USA is more relatable as a Hummer. Very inefficient. You get far more than what you need if you are insured, and nothing if you're not.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
anonimuss
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November 15th, 2013 at 6:50:16 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

So you think native American groups were going to accomplish this without any help from other more dominant groups?



I liked it better when we were getting them drunk and taking their money.
boymimbo
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November 15th, 2013 at 7:05:51 PM permalink
Quote: Tanko

If the goal of the government were to reduce competition, they would allow people to shop out of state for insurance.
As of now, people may only purchase insurance offered in their state.


Blame the insurance lobby and the inability of the government to come up with something that would obviously help the American People.

Quote: Tanko

If the goal were to reduce costs, the plans would not be so comprehensive and cost an average of 41% more than before.
Insuring 30 million more people and forcing insurance companies to insure high-risk people only increases costs.


I guess they should die then. After all, it's mostly their fault they got sick. Where did you get 41% from

Quote: Tanko

As far as this being necessary for the US to compete and retain its middle class: Compete with whom? People in the US have the highest personal income and the highest disposable income in the world.



True, but it's skewed. According to the OECD index, the USA is 28th of 31st place in the social inequity index. 20% of the population earns over $83K/year, while the bottom 20% earn less than $10,434/year (household income).

Quote:

Would you compare our research, technological and medical science advancements to any other nation on the planet?
What nation gives better medial care? There are no waiting lists in the US for surgery.


True, but it's terribly inefficient. People avoid care until it's too late if they're uninsured. Then, they have catastrophic care that could have been avoided. They get the care, and then, they are bankrupt.

Quote:

If you need angioplasty in the US, you can get it tomorrow.

Great. Define need.

Quote:

My physician’s father in Canada needed angioplasty and was told to wait six weeks.

If you "need" it right away, you're in a hospital, and you're getting it right away. Angioplasty is a course of action to combat a chronic condition that has been building over time.

Quote:

If the market in the US is not working, then where does it actually work?


The concept for "market" for health care is at debate. Why is there a market for health? For the most part, you don't control when you get sick. The best course of action is to provide easy access to care up front in order to prevent future costs. In the US, because it is market based, bad health creates more profit. There is no motive for the industry to keep you healthy. It profits from the unhealth.

Quote:

UK? Canada? The Frazier Institute in Canada calls the Canadian plan unsustainable.

Of course they do. They're a very conservative thinktank, pushing for private health care for as long as I can remember.

Quote:

Prior to Obamacare, 80% of the people in the US were satisfied with their medical coverage.

Oh well, screw the other 20%.

Quote:

As far as our costs being 50-60% higher, they are not. We simply spend more on ourselves. We pay less taxes than people in more soclialized nations, and we can afford to spend more on medical testing and quality care.


The USA spends 17.6% of GDP on health care. Canada spends 11.4%. Your health indicators (all of them) are worse than many other countries and is not indicative of the healthiest nation. The results don't reflect the spending. You have some good survivability rates, I'll give you that, but I can list statistics where European countries do better the US, like infant mortality, for example.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
timberjim
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November 16th, 2013 at 3:52:05 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo



The USA spends 17.6% of GDP on health care. Canada spends 11.4%. Your health indicators (all of them) are worse than many other countries and is not indicative of the healthiest nation. The results don't reflect the spending. You have some good survivability rates, I'll give you that, but I can list statistics where European countries do better the US, like infant mortality, for example.



Many of us on this site understand that statistics can say whatever you want them to say.

Since you have made infant mortality a major issue of your belief that US health care is inferior, why don't you also include the way these statistics are compiled?
It must be simple for you to show us that infant mortality rates are determined using the same standards around the world.
AZDuffman
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:46:35 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

United Healthcare sold $107.2 billion of Premiums and Services in 2012 with Operating Medical Costs of $80.2 billion of a gross margin of about 25%.

If health insurance premiums are going up by 8-10% / year and your wages increase by 2% every year (at best), how do you defute the statement that health insurance premiums are eroding the middle class.

Health insurance in the USA is more relatable as a Hummer. Very inefficient. You get far more than what you need if you are insured, and nothing if you're not.



United Healthcare 2012

Revenues: $110,618
Earnings from Operation $ 9,254
Net Earnings $ 5,526


About an 8% operating margin and 4.5% net. This is right from their 10-K.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Dicenor33
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November 16th, 2013 at 7:12:12 AM permalink
Obamacare? Built smaller doors so that fat people to get through, thus forded to loose weight and watch your medical bills disappear .
SanchoPanza
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November 16th, 2013 at 9:19:40 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

So you think native American groups were going to accomplish this without any help from other more dominant groups?

Quote: anonimuss

I liked it better when we were getting them drunk and taking their money.

An especially paradoxical statement to appear in a gambling forum.
SanchoPanza
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November 16th, 2013 at 9:23:52 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

The USA spends 17.6% of GDP on health care. Canada spends 11.4%. Your health indicators (all of them) are worse than many other countries and is not indicative of the healthiest nation. The results don't reflect the spending. You have some good survivability rates, I'll give you that, but I can list statistics where European countries do better the US, like infant mortality, for example.

None of which takes into account in any shape, manner or form crucial factors like demographics, incomes, educational levels and even non-personal criteria like resources and military spending. Especially a problem minus the citation for the source of the comparison.
LarryS
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November 16th, 2013 at 10:08:38 AM permalink
does infant mortality also have to do with percentage of people on illegal drugs, teenage pregancy....is that a reflection of the healtcare system or the society that burdens the healtcare system with crack babies, and teens that dont take care of themselves, dingk, smoke while pregnant.

Does the welfare system we have where generations of families live the welfare life, taking the handout, getting fat on the sofa eating junk food that our govt pays for, even though they have access to free healthcare. And when they do present themselves to the healtcare system, really what type of results do u expect .

Is it possible that other countries are inhabited by people who feel welfare is an embarrassment, and do what they can to get off the welfare roles.

Is it possible other countries have more working people who dont indulge in excess and live a life of moderation? If so..when these people present themselves to the healthcare system....better results ensue.
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 10:17:26 AM permalink
Students at historically black college complain about Obamacare:

(You guys made your bed, now it's time to lie in it!!)

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LarryS
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November 16th, 2013 at 10:24:19 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

United Healthcare 2012

Revenues: $110,618
Earnings from Operation $ 9,254
Net Earnings $ 5,526


About an 8% operating margin and 4.5% net. This is right from their 10-K.



That sounds about right. There are 3 kinds of people who talk about healthcare. People on the inside who work there and know what they are talking about firsthand, people outside of healthcare who read and research the facts, and thirdly... dunces that fell for being spoonfed lies and false facts and figues by their president and local politicians who just regurgitate these stats as if they are true. Of course these are the majority ofpeople ..and the reason we have obamacare.

Fact is, healtcare costs go up every year not only because of the litigious nature of the system, but because of the increased use of the system. Even the most liberal person knows for a fact that out society is suffering a large rise in obesity. With that comes diabetes, heart and blood pressure issues, weight bearing joint problems. With diabetes comes eyesight problems, circulatory problems. With High blood pressue comes more strokes, and the need for more therapy after the strokes. More bypass surgery....all this from new genrations growing up sitting on their asses in front of a computer...or others sitting at home doing nothing in front of a TV all day. And lests not forget Alzheimers which many feel just by itself can bankrupt the medicare system in the next 20 years.
The more the healthsystem is used..the more our premiums have to be. Its simple economics.

You know the old saying..figures can lie and liars can figure. Well the liars keep telling us that the healthcare costs keep going up....and they make us think that its the big bad healtcare system that is getting rich off of us. They never tell you to eat more moderately, exercise. Oh no..that takes effort. Its better to blame "big business". But in the end the general out of shape lazy sector of the population is the reason healthcare costs keep going up.
steeldco
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:20:43 PM permalink
"The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study).[22][23] The Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among similar countries,[24] and notes U.S. care costs the most.[25]"

Since I don't see how we can't improve upon our health system, I see no reason not to try Obamacare. Again, I don't believe that it can get much worse.
Especially since I sincerely believe that the young get a huge break in not paying in while we see that their healthcare costs over their expected lifetime is now pushing $600,000. If they start paying later, then there will never be enough paid into the system to cover their costs.
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AZDuffman
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:28:48 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco


Since I don't see how we can't improve upon our health system, I see no reason not to try Obamacare.



How about the fact that is is increasing costs and decreasing choice for almost everybody?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:28:56 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco

I see no reason not to try Obamacare. Again, I don't believe that it can get much worse.


*slaps knee* Haha...that's a good one!
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steeldco
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:31:57 PM permalink
I'm not convinced that will be the case. I see a chance for it to improve the system. I am willing to see if it will.
DO NOT blindly accept what has been spoken. DO NOT blindly accept what has been written. Think. Assess. Lead. DO NOT blindly follow.
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:35:55 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco

I'm not convinced that will be the case.


Based on what has occurred so far, I am.
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steeldco
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:38:19 PM permalink
Glad to hear. It's looking even better to me now.
DO NOT blindly accept what has been spoken. DO NOT blindly accept what has been written. Think. Assess. Lead. DO NOT blindly follow.
AZDuffman
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:47:29 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco

I'm not convinced that will be the case. I see a chance for it to improve the system. I am willing to see if it will.



Please explain how it will improve the system. Based on evidence so far, what would lead one to believe this?
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steeldco
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:49:48 PM permalink
The fact that the young adults are being forced to take on insurance is a plus. A huge plus.
DO NOT blindly accept what has been spoken. DO NOT blindly accept what has been written. Think. Assess. Lead. DO NOT blindly follow.
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:51:45 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco

The fact that the young adults are being forced to take on insurance is a plus. A huge plus.


Based on what has occurred so far, where's the evidence that this has happened?
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steeldco
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November 16th, 2013 at 12:58:26 PM permalink
It's a matter of simple math. Try it sometime.
DO NOT blindly accept what has been spoken. DO NOT blindly accept what has been written. Think. Assess. Lead. DO NOT blindly follow.
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:00:06 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco

It's a matter of simple math. Try it sometime.

Actually, it's a matter of simple reading comprehension. I'll try again:

Based on what has occurred so far, where's the evidence that this has happened???

(Don't worry, we can all see that you have no answer and can only rely on "hope" & "change")
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steeldco
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:05:42 PM permalink
You're a bright guy. Go ahead and post the math here. BTW, of course it hasn't yet happened.
DO NOT blindly accept what has been spoken. DO NOT blindly accept what has been written. Think. Assess. Lead. DO NOT blindly follow.
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:14:12 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco

BTW, of course it hasn't yet happened.


Thank you very much. Point proven.

(Guess some people really do still believe in "hope & change")
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SanchoPanza
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:24:57 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco

The fact that the young adults are being forced to take on insurance is a plus. A huge plus.

That is pure conjecture. Nor are young people "being forced" to buy the policies. If they shy from doing that, they can always pay the purely arbitrary penalties. Great way to run a health system and a country!
petroglyph
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:27:05 PM permalink
Tyler Durden's picture
Total Healthcare "Enrollment" As A Result Of Obamacare: -3.9 Million
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 11/15/2013 - 14:00
"We fumbled the rollout on this health-care law," could be President Obama's understatement of the century. In the month-or-so since Obamacare was unleashed 106,185 people enrolled (based on a loose re-definition by the White House). However, in that same period, the WSJ reports a stunning 4.02 million people received policy cancellations. So, in a month, a total of 3,918,205 fewer people are now 'enrolled' in a heathcare plan than before Obamacare. So far, California, Florida, and Washington are suffering the most under Obamacare...

.
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:41:27 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

So far, California, Florida, and Washington are suffering the most under Obamacare...

Good. People in those states voted for Obama, so they can stuff it.
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steeldco
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:42:08 PM permalink
Your stating that my opinion is pure conjecture is absolutely incorrect. It's a simple matter to calculate how much more is paid into the system when people start paying in at an earlier age. I would suggest that you do the math.
DO NOT blindly accept what has been spoken. DO NOT blindly accept what has been written. Think. Assess. Lead. DO NOT blindly follow.
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:45:45 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco

Your stating that my opinion is pure conjecture is absolutely incorrect. It's a simple matter to calculate how much more is paid into the system when people start paying in at an earlier age. I would suggest that you do the math.


You seem to have a problem distinguishing between "what should happen" and "what has happened".
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steeldco
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:47:15 PM permalink
Not at all. You wear blinders and are pushing a political agenda. Knock yourself out.
Obamacare is worth a try. Very plain and simple. You don't believe that? It's Ok. You're entitled to your opinion.
DO NOT blindly accept what has been spoken. DO NOT blindly accept what has been written. Think. Assess. Lead. DO NOT blindly follow.
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:50:21 PM permalink
Actually, you're the one wearing the blinders because you've ignored everything I've said.

There is NO evidence so far that any of the things you "hope" for will actually happen. But that doesn't matter because "hope" is all that counts, right? *facepalm*
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steeldco
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November 16th, 2013 at 1:52:48 PM permalink
I often have wondered about the maturity of someone who uses something like *facepalm* all the time......LOL. Thanks for eliminating the doubt.
So you don't want to do the math on the benefit if the younger get insured? Gee, I wonder why not......
DO NOT blindly accept what has been spoken. DO NOT blindly accept what has been written. Think. Assess. Lead. DO NOT blindly follow.
Beethoven9th
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November 16th, 2013 at 2:01:28 PM permalink
Cool, I have often wondered about the intelligence of someone who likes to evade simple questions. Thanks for eliminating all doubt.

So you don't want to provide any real-world evidence to support your claim? Gee, I wonder why not...
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rxwine
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November 16th, 2013 at 2:17:02 PM permalink
Quote: LarryS

There are 3 kinds of people who talk about healthcare. People on the inside who work there and know what they are talking about firsthand, people outside of healthcare who read and research the facts, and thirdly... dunces that fell for being spoonfed lies and false facts and figues by their president and local politicians who just regurgitate these stats as if they are true. Of course these are the majority ofpeople ..and the reason we have obamacare.
.



Not like we should have trusted Tobacco insiders who stood to lose financially in selling their products. Insiders have a point of view, no doubt, and I'm happy to hear it.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
wroberson
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November 16th, 2013 at 2:39:22 PM permalink
This has to be an insurance industry bailout. It's a cover for something diabolical. Some grand design. It's not about now. not about us. It's something to be put into place for the next generations.
Buffering...
rxwine
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November 16th, 2013 at 2:45:08 PM permalink
Quote: wroberson

This has to be an insurance industry bailout. It's a cover for something diabolical. Some grand design. It's not about now. not about us. It's something to be put into place for the next generations.



Shhh. The cabal hears everything.

There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AZDuffman
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November 16th, 2013 at 3:53:50 PM permalink
Quote: steeldco

The fact that the young adults are being forced to take on insurance is a plus. A huge plus.



How is forcing people to buy something they would rather not buy a huge plus? I'm confused here. How is forcing me to buy maternity, pediatric, and substance abuse coverage I neither need nor want a plus?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:11:17 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

How is forcing people to buy something they would rather not buy a huge plus?



I don't get that part either. How is forcing people to do anything
ever good. You're forced to pay taxes if you work, but nobody's
forcing you to work. In some states you're forced to wear a
helmet if you ride a cycle, but nobody is forcing you to ride.

Obamacare forces you into buying healthcare whether you want it
or not, or pay huge fines down the road. It won't work, it can't
work, it's not working.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
anonimuss
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:20:16 PM permalink
The people claiming obamacare is "good" are the ones on welfare and food stamps your buying unnecessary healthcare is subsidizing.


“If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free.”

― P.J. O'Rourke
rxwine
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:34:31 PM permalink
Assume doom for Obamacare....So the people opposing it will have to run against sick people who didn't have insurance and couldn't easily get it, not so sick but preexisting condition people, those who got lower rates, those who got lower subsidized rates, and those who just got lower rates who can afford insurance at any rate but actually got a better deal..

And those opposing (assuming mostly GOP) run into the same thing that's happening now, changing things too much could end up canceling policies of people who got these advantages.

More fun on the way, if they try fixes that start to deprive people of insurance.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
boymimbo
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:45:26 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

United Healthcare 2012

Revenues: $110,618
Earnings from Operation $ 9,254
Net Earnings $ 5,526


About an 8% operating margin and 4.5% net. This is right from their 10-K.



Gross Margin: Sales less Cost of Goods sold. Off their annual report. I didn't say "profits" were huge. I said "margins" were huge. When you mark up health care by 25% and then 20 billion on "operations", you start to wonder if government couldn't do it cheaper. You figure there's a large gap between what medicare pays vs what United pays which could lower costs tremendously for everyone.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
boymimbo
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:48:29 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

None of which takes into account in any shape, manner or form crucial factors like demographics, incomes, educational levels and even non-personal criteria like resources and military spending. Especially a problem minus the citation for the source of the comparison.



Right. So you account for the 50% difference in spending to demographics, income, and everything else to discount the true statistic. The fact is is that for companies to compete, they have to pass health insurnace costs to their employees, which means much less money in the employees pockets. Given that employee salaries are not increasing and more and more companies are passing along health costs to their employees, how does America compete?

Copout.
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boymimbo
boymimbo
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:56:42 PM permalink
Quote: LarryS

That sounds about right. There are 3 kinds of people who talk about healthcare. People on the inside who work there and know what they are talking about firsthand, people outside of healthcare who read and research the facts, and thirdly... dunces that fell for being spoonfed lies and false facts and figues by their president and local politicians who just regurgitate these stats as if they are true. Of course these are the majority ofpeople ..and the reason we have obamacare.

Fact is, healtcare costs go up every year not only because of the litigious nature of the system, but because of the increased use of the system. Even the most liberal person knows for a fact that out society is suffering a large rise in obesity. With that comes diabetes, heart and blood pressure issues, weight bearing joint problems. With diabetes comes eyesight problems, circulatory problems. With High blood pressue comes more strokes, and the need for more therapy after the strokes. More bypass surgery....all this from new genrations growing up sitting on their asses in front of a computer...or others sitting at home doing nothing in front of a TV all day. And lests not forget Alzheimers which many feel just by itself can bankrupt the medicare system in the next 20 years.
The more the healthsystem is used..the more our premiums have to be. Its simple economics.

You know the old saying..figures can lie and liars can figure. Well the liars keep telling us that the healthcare costs keep going up....and they make us think that its the big bad healtcare system that is getting rich off of us. They never tell you to eat more moderately, exercise. Oh no..that takes effort. Its better to blame "big business". But in the end the general out of shape lazy sector of the population is the reason healthcare costs keep going up.



I've worked 8+ years in healthcare, in the finance department, watching costs go higher. I've consulted for insurance companies and have compared it to government workers that I've also consulted for and see very little difference when it comes to efficiency. The fact is that capitalism is seen as a perfect system which it's quite far from that. Insurance companies are as archaic as airlines. They've been around for a long time, and they generate huge amounts of money that people are willing to pay for, and they have local monopolies (in many states) that allow them to set costs and prices to consumers.

Increased use of the system accounts for the rise in cost? No, it doesn't. People stay away from preventative care because it's too expensive. Rather than see a doctor when you're 40 pounds overweight, you weight until you're 100 pounds overweight, are diabetic, and have to have gastric bypass surgery, uninsured. Who pays for the uninsured. Well, you do, whether it's you funding the county hospital or you paying more taxes, or you paying more insurance premiums. A far better system is preventative care for the under and uninsured.

I kind of feel like the people on this forum are not paying for their own coverage. Take a look at your insurance bill year over year, and look at your usage year over year, and tell me that you're getting what you paid for. Or if you work for a company, talk to their payroll or HR department and ask them how health insurance costs have affected them. You can keep blinding your eyes and thinking that somehow capitalism will fix the system, just like it did the banking system.
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boymimbo
boymimbo
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:59:09 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Not like we should have trusted Tobacco insiders who stood to lose financially in selling their products. Insiders have a point of view, no doubt, and I'm happy to hear it.



I generally like Soopoo's opinion. He's an anethesiologist working out of Buffalo and makes good arguments. I don't agree with him, but he makes good, sound arguments.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
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