Land-based Casino Directory Website Project
While there are websites out there that do this, at least the ones that I've visited don't follow the same approach I would use and are not what I would consider to be very appealing to the end user. To be clear, I haven't done an exhaustive recent competitive analysis for this space lately, so it's possible things may have changed, although I doubt it.
The main points would be:
1. Elegant, easy-to-use interface
2. Garbage-free design- no obnoxious ads!
3. Ability to filter by region(state/province/country) or special destination(las vegas/tunica/macau), for example
4. Be able to show the closest casinos to your location(your home, a zip code, a city), for example
5. Ideally a table-game locator, although it would need to be up to date which would require periodic updates from shfl, deq, glxz, etc. At one time shfl had this on their website, but it's been a while- plus some may not want to do so for competitive reasons. We could utilize 'spotters', but the reliability would be suspect, and that would be a problem for me. This feature wouldn't necessarily be a deal-breaker for the project, though.
At least for the main functionality, strictly speaking, nothing too new here- although there would be huge efforts made to keep things simple, clean, and elegant. (This is what I do for my day job, so we have the expertise).
One thing it would do very well, is given your location, provide results closest to you- and easy driving instructions. For example, if I went traveling on business to Chicago, it would answer the question of where I could gamble and I could get a feel for my choices. This feature probably wouldn't be too useful for those in Vegas, but a lot of us aren't in Vegas. Quite frankly, I'm not even sure of all of my options within a 3-hour driving radius from my home- let alone a foreign city.
I just wanted to put it out there to see if any other forum members would find such a resource useful and if anyone you had any feedback. As mentioned above, the design and implementation wouldn't be a problem as that's what my company does, although efforts would of course need to be made to keep everything accurate.
Any ideas/feedback everyone? Thanks in advance!
1.) If you are not going to have ads, you are not going to have revenue, so it's going to cost. I'm not sure how much. If you were thinking of making it a paid service, I wouldn't pay for it. If I am willing to go to more than one website, I can get everything you offer for free within minutes.
2.) You can use Google to filter by region, but again, if I don't have to go through what results I want, your website would be worth knowing straight off the top, if it were free or paying for itself with ads...
3.) The table game locator is very much unnecessary, for a few reasons.
A.) Just put what table games the casino offers, the material may or may not be correct by the time the person actually gets there, then they are pissed at your website. If they know that a casino offers Let It Ride, and that's what they are looking for, then the casino's phone number will be on there anyway. They can call and see if it is open and until what time. You could also put what hours every game is generally open while still advising calling.
B.) Bravo Poker already does this for Live Poker games, and the information comes directly from the casino. The only exception is when the casino forgets to change the information, but the accuracy rate (I have called a few casinos in the country at random to check/compare) is well over 95%. I don't know how many sites the poker room manager would want to do this for every time a table breaks up/gets added, though.
4.) I have seen many sites linked up to Mapquest or Google Maps, so you only have to input your address. I don't know what, if anything, this costs, but it would be a convenient function for users.
***My advice is to re-think your position on the ads, just make sure they are not pervasive. People usually only click if they want to, and you are usually paid per click. I think you could well get casinos in competitive or out-of-the-way areas to advertise on there, so that might generate a revenue stream that could get the site to break-even, or better.
I travel a lot and the first thing I check for when traveling is the closest Casino near my destination with Craps. I traveled through Europe for the first time back in 2009 and was not aware that there were a few Casinos in London and a few other places that I visited that have Craps.
Do you plan on making your website strictly United States Casino based or will it also have International Casino locations?
Quote: TheBigPaybak
5. Ideally a table-game locator, although it would need to be up to date which would require periodic updates
Nobody does this. The only way to find a specific
game is to call the casino and talk to somebody
on the floor and half the time they don't know.
I'm always wanting to know if a casino has Rapid
Roulette or Roulette Evolution but its never listed,
or rarely listed on a casinos website. And if they
get rid of a game, they seldom update, it just stays
on their site forever.
Getting info from casinos on table games would
be a super pain, and you would almost have to
visit each casino personally.
Even though you are restricting yourself to just the US, it would still be a large undertaking to do it right and stay up to date. You might start on a smaller scale, like just the casinos in California.
Aside from ads from Internet casinos, it is very tough making money via advertising on the Internet.
Quote: WizardThere is a need for somebody to do something like this well.
It would be a big hit if it can be done at all. There is no guide
that tells you anything about what a specific casino offers as
far as gambling goes. How many BJ tables, how many roulette
tables, what the min's are, how many slots, what are all the
table games offered. And a hundred other things. Putting a
guide together would be an undertaking, I believe there are
over 1500 casinos in the US now.
Quote: Mission146It's not a bad idea, but here are a couple of things:
1.) If you are not going to have ads, you are not going to have revenue, so it's going to cost. I'm not sure how much. If you were thinking of making it a paid service, I wouldn't pay for it. If I am willing to go to more than one website, I can get everything you offer for free within minutes.
It would be a free service. With regard to ads, I probably should have been more clear to state that they just wouldn't be done in an obnoxious way that would interfere with the operation/elegance of the site. They wouldn't get in the way and would hopefully be helpful, too.
Quote: Mission1463.) The table game locator is very much unnecessary, for a few reasons.
A.) Just put what table games the casino offers, the material may or may not be correct by the time the person actually gets there, then they are pissed at your website. If they know that a casino offers Let It Ride, and that's what they are looking for, then the casino's phone number will be on there anyway. They can call and see if it is open and until what time. You could also put what hours every game is generally open while still advising calling.
B.) Bravo Poker already does this for Live Poker games, and the information comes directly from the casino. The only exception is when the casino forgets to change the information, but the accuracy rate (I have called a few casinos in the country at random to check/compare) is well over 95%. I don't know how many sites the poker room manager would want to do this for every time a table breaks up/gets added, though.
The accuracy of the information on the site I would take very seriously: if we didn't have a good way to ensure accuracy, we wouldn't add the information. I still think it would be great to have this feature but only if I could ensure accuracy. For example, I would love to be able to do a quick search and find, for example, where I could try out Six Card Poker, or other new games. Manufacturers would have to play ball at the very least.
Quote: Mission1464.) I have seen many sites linked up to Mapquest or Google Maps, so you only have to input your address. I don't know what, if anything, this costs, but it would be a convenient function for users.
We'd make it very slick on this front!
Quote: Mission146***My advice is to re-think your position on the ads, just make sure they are not pervasive. People usually only click if they want to, and you are usually paid per click. I think you could well get casinos in competitive or out-of-the-way areas to advertise on there, so that might generate a revenue stream that could get the site to break-even, or better.
I agree. Ultimately Casinos, bus tour operators, junket operators- a lot of possibilities- although out the gate, we'd first focus on just getting the traffic.
Thanks for your feedback!
Quote: CrapsForeverExcellent Idea!
I travel a lot and the first thing I check for when traveling is the closest Casino near my destination with Craps. I traveled through Europe for the first time back in 2009 and was not aware that there were a few Casinos in London and a few other places that I visited that have Craps.
Do you plan on making your website strictly United States Casino based or will it also have International Casino locations?
Thanks! While the United States would be the obvious "Phase 1", International destinations would definitely be part of the overall plan. I would venture to say that most of us regulars on this board, when traveling abroad, are curious and would enjoy the local action- at least to just visit and check out.
Quote: EvenBobGetting info from casinos on table games would
be a super pain, and you would almost have to
visit each casino personally.
It's a hard problem to solve. I'd like to think the game manufacturers themselves have good records, although, not sure if they'll play ball. If they were interested in doing so, we would make it very easy for them- for example building a custom interface that could import whatever report they would now generate on the subject, which I'm sure they have.
Quote: TheBigPaybakIt's a hard problem to solve. I'd like to think the game manufacturers themselves have good records, although, not sure if they'll play ball.
They don't play ball at all. I have tried to get info
from Bally and IGT about what casinos have what
games and you hit a brick wall. They tell you to
call the casinos and ask, they can't give out client
info to the public without their permission.
Try it, call IGT and ask them what casinos have
Roulette Evolution, for example. I guarantee they
will tell you diddly.
Quote: WizardEven though you are restricting yourself to just the US, it would still be a large undertaking to do it right and stay up to date. You might start on a smaller scale, like just the casinos in California.
Aside from ads from Internet casinos, it is very tough making money via advertising on the Internet.
We'd definitely want to go beyond just the US, even though it may have to be a Phase 2.
As we have the infrastructure, our costs would be primarily sweat-equity, although there's no doubt it will take some work to do right. On the positive side, we have already developed a good foundation from another project that could be used- so we wouldn't be starting from scratch.
At least when I did some prior research for the project, there were casino databases available for purchase, although we'd need to ensure their accuracy.
We would also have to put a lot of checks and balances to avoid "stale" data resulting in problems as you described from Casino City.
To me, that would be like one (wizardofvegas+cheapovegas+more) for each state/region.
Quote: EvenBobThey don't play ball at all. I have tried to get info
from Bally and IGT about what casinos have what
games and you hit a brick wall. They tell you to
call the casinos and ask, they can't give out client
info to the public without their permission.
Try it, call IGT and ask them what casinos have
Roulette Evolution, for example. I guarantee they
will tell you diddly.
At least at one time, Shuffle Master had a table game locator of sorts: I don't recall if it yielded actual casino results or just territories the games were in. Regardless, having this information available would in the end HELP both IGT and their clients. It would only take one or two top names, and the rest would probably fall in line- and if they didn't then they would be leaving essentially free advertising on the table. For the second-tier players who may be afraid of "showing their hand" to the likes of Shuffle Master by publicly listing where their games are located, I have to think Shuffle already knows and is already playing hardball. On this I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you, just wondering when some of the manufacturers will start to get a little more creative. What I'm offering wouldn't even cost them money, just information to advertise their products. I can't for the life of me think of any reason why a particular casino wouldn't want their particular games advertised, though. In other words, why would they be upset at IGT or SHFL for providing that information?
Quote: pokerfaceGreat idea!
To me, that would be like one (wizardofvegas+cheapovegas+more) for each state/region.
Thanks! I've not familiar with cheapovegas, but we would keep our functionality and information pretty tight: we'd do a few things well and leave the rest to others and/or provide links. We wouldn't, for example, create a gambling forums section, although we'd happily have a links page to WoV...
and they treated me like a crook. When I asked
what casinos had it, they said 'who wants to know?'
I told them I enjoyed playing it, and they got cold
as ice and said they don't deal with players on
any level, they are the client of casinos only, and
players are the casinos client, so I had to contact
the casino directly. Then the woman hung up on
me, I kid you not.
Another time I pretended to be the rep for a midwest
casino and gave them a fake name and title, and
they were as warm as could be. And they still couldn't
give me anything because it was priviledged info between
them and the specific client. Sigh.
Quote: EvenBobI called Bally after their roulette slot came out
and they treated me like a crook. When I asked
what casinos had it, they said 'who wants to know?'
I told them I enjoyed playing it, and they got cold
as ice and said they don't deal with players on
any level, they are the client of casinos only, and
players are the casinos client, so I had to contact
the casino directly. Then the woman hung up on
me, I kid you not.
Another time I pretended to be the rep for a midwest
casino and gave them a fake name and title, and
they were as warm as could be. And they still couldn't
give me anything because it was priviledged info between
them and the specific client. Sigh.
It's strange, especially as the information itself is public information. I still can't think of a good reason why a particular casino client would not want the information publicized. All of that said, I think the site is still workable without a comprehensive table/electronic games list.
Another potential route could be that the site could be, for example, "Sponsored by i-Table Roulette"- and of course have a list of where you can play that game...
Quote: EvenBobI called Bally after their roulette slot came out
and they treated me like a crook. When I asked
what casinos had it, they said 'who wants to know?'
I told them I enjoyed playing it, and they got cold
as ice and said they don't deal with players on
any level, they are the client of casinos only, and
players are the casinos client, so I had to contact
the casino directly. Then the woman hung up on
me, I kid you not.
Another time I pretended to be the rep for a midwest
casino and gave them a fake name and title, and
they were as warm as could be. And they still couldn't
give me anything because it was priviledged info between
them and the specific client. Sigh.
And the more I think about your comments, it's CRAZY! I mean at this point in the game, all of the manufacturers are beating their collective heads against the wall trying to come up with the Next Big Thing- and just about everyone has some electronic roulette product- or multiple products out there- with no standard taking the market at this time. You would think both casinos and manufacturers would welcome any advertising pushing their products with open arms!
Cheap Vegas was a great site, until it got sold and it is now covered in obnoxious advertisements.
Quote: TheBigPaybakAnd the more I think about your comments, it's CRAZY!
Don't take my word for it, call them. It early afternoon
in Vegas which is where they are. If you say you're a
player, they won't even talk to you. Its like calling a
lawyer and asking for info on his clients. Forget it.
Casinos are very competitive, I can understand why
they want certain things kept secret. You'll have to
have people go into specific casinos for you and
report first hand whats going on, the casinos or their
business clients won't tell you anything.
Quote: JuyemuraI personally love this idea and would be happy to and alpha or beta test and give feedback once you have a prototype.
Cheap Vegas was a great site, until it got sold and it is now covered in obnoxious advertisements.
Thanks Juyemura, much appreciated!
Besides the fundamental "locator" technology, any other information to present will of course need to be decided upon and will likely be key to the site's success. Obviously we would want the casino name, type, contact information, website, facebook, twitter links- and hopefully lots of photos. I'll have to dig out my old specification document and see what else I was thinking, and will of course need to be careful not to get overly ambitious and "junk it up". But if anyone else has any other ideas on information that would keep the website "sticky" (so you come back periodically), all ideas welcome!
Quote: EvenBobDon't take my word for it, call them. It early afternoon
in Vegas which is where they are. If you say you're a
player, they won't even talk to you. Its like calling a
lawyer and asking for info on his clients. Forget it.
Casinos are very competitive, I can understand why
they want certain things kept secret. You'll have to
have people go into specific casinos for you and
report first hand whats going on, the casinos or their
business clients won't tell you anything.
To be clear, I don't doubt you. I think like most industries, their adoption of Internet technologies has been on the slow-side, although with legalized Internet gaming now on the horizon in the US, they may start to open up somewhat to new marketing techniques.
Given the increasing competition and challenges out there, you would like to think they would be more open to new ideas, but it's probably take a bit longer for attitudes to change.
At least for the website to work, I wouldn't need all manufacturers to come onboard, but having one or two give it a chance, might be interesting. Maybe if a top-dog wasn't interested, a scrappier player like DEQ would be...
Quote: TheBigPaybak
The accuracy of the information on the site I would take very seriously: if we didn't have a good way to ensure accuracy, we wouldn't add the information. I still think it would be great to have this feature but only if I could ensure accuracy. For example, I would love to be able to do a quick search and find, for example, where I could try out Six Card Poker, or other new games. Manufacturers would have to play ball at the very least.
It doesn't have to be deadly accurate, like I said, just give yourself outs. You would list the games that each casino says it offers and the times that each of those games is generally open. You would include the casino's phone number and advise people to call the casino directly to make sure the game is open, if they wanted to. They have no reason to be upset with the site, then.
If you want some help just getting the general stuff from the casinos, I'd call around for you and get good information. You just have to get the higher-ups on the phone, but I used to supervise at a telemarketing place, so I know the tricks to get around gatekeepers and people who have no idea what's going on.
I will get you good Tables information on twenty-five casinos whenever you are ready. If you are satisifed with the quality/accuracy of the information, then we will discuss terms with respect to me doing future information gathering for you.
Quote:I agree. Ultimately Casinos, bus tour operators, junket operators- a lot of possibilities- although out the gate, we'd first focus on just getting the traffic.
Thanks for your feedback!
You must get the traffic first, yes. This could involve some advertising of your own, of course, the right hash-tags can get you pretty high in the Google rankings. There are also companies who deal exclusively with getting you high up on Google's pecking order for a search term(s), whether or not you would want to incur that expense is something that would be up to you.
EDIT: Pardon me for being so rude, you're welcome.
You just need a separate page with a list of Table Games. When you click on a Table Game, there is a brief description of Rules/Payouts, a link to WizardofOdds.com's page on that game, (for the right price, Wiz!) and a list of casinos/cities/states offering that game. The list gets updated when you do the casino call-arounds. There would be a function by which you could order by Country, then State/Province, or alphabetically by casino name.
Furthermore, the Casino Tables offered information would only have to be updated every three months, or so, with more call-arounds or E-Mails. Perfect, no? Sufficient, yes. You would break it apart so you only have to call a handful of casinos per day to update, more manageable that way. You could also include a, "Verified as of," date on the site, with the promise that no information is ever more than ninety days old.
Quote: Mission146Quote: TheBigPaybak
The accuracy of the information on the site I would take very seriously: if we didn't have a good way to ensure accuracy, we wouldn't add the information. I still think it would be great to have this feature but only if I could ensure accuracy. For example, I would love to be able to do a quick search and find, for example, where I could try out Six Card Poker, or other new games. Manufacturers would have to play ball at the very least.
It doesn't have to be deadly accurate, like I said, just give yourself outs. You would list the games that each casino says it offers and the times that each of those games is generally open. You would include the casino's phone number and advise people to call the casino directly to make sure the game is open, if they wanted to. They have no reason to be upset with the site, then.
If you want some help just getting the general stuff from the casinos, I'd call around for you and get good information. You just have to get the higher-ups on the phone, but I used to supervise at a telemarketing place, so I know the tricks to get around gatekeepers and people who have no idea what's going on.
I will get you good Tables information on twenty-five casinos whenever you are ready. If you are satisifed with the quality/accuracy of the information, then we will discuss terms with respect to me doing future information gathering for you.
You must get the traffic first, yes. This could involve some advertising of your own, of course, the right hash-tags can get you pretty high in the Google rankings. There are also companies who deal exclusively with getting you high up on Google's pecking order for a search term(s), whether or not you would want to incur that expense is something that would be up to you.
EDIT: Pardon me for being so rude, you're welcome.
Thanks again for the feedback and the above offer! It's been my experience to try and do as much up-front planning as possible before implementation to keep costs down as much as possible- instead of for example- just launching a quick prototype. Since my initial post, at least the respondents today have been fairly positive- giving me a little more enthusiasm to take this idea off the back-burner and make it happen. I will continue to flesh this out and provide some updates for comment periodically and then make a final decision as to when we can realistically do this- barring any showstoppers.
We're pretty good at SEO, and one of my buddy's an expert well known in the industry, so we have some options there. He at least at one time also expressed interest in the project.
Quote: Mission146You don't need any manufacturers. EB is exactly right, there is no getting anything out of Bally.
You just need a separate page with a list of Table Games. When you click on a Table Game, there is a brief description of Rules/Payouts, a link to WizardofOdds.com's page on that game, (for the right price, Wiz!) and a list of casinos/cities/states offering that game. The list gets updated when you do the casino call-arounds. There would be a function by which you could order by Country, then State/Province, or alphabetically by casino name.
Furthermore, the Casino Tables offered information would only have to be updated every three months, or so, with more call-arounds or E-Mails. Perfect, no? Sufficient, yes. You would break it apart so you only have to call a handful of casinos per day to update, more manageable that way. You could also include a, "Verified as of," date on the site, with the promise that no information is ever more than ninety days old.
As you describe above as one example, there are a few ways to try and keep data up to date- although I do think it will become a "Phase 2" item to not detract from the main goal of the site, and to not be too time-consuming as I still have my day-to-day responsibilities to fulfill.
All of that said, a workable solution may be to make use of the Mechanical Turk:
https://www.mturk.com/mturk/welcome
Hmmmm....
Quote: TheBigPaybak
We're pretty good at SEO, and one of my buddy's an expert well known in the industry, so we have some options there. He at least at one time also expressed interest in the project.
There's been a hundred times I've wanted a site
like this, especially when I go to Vegas. Its very
hard to find who has what. I call them and
nobody knows whats on the floor, so I call a pit
and even then the info is sketchy. Its very
frustrating.
Quote: TheBigPaybakAs you describe above as one example, there are a few ways to try and keep data up to date- although I do think it will become a "Phase 2" item to not detract from the main goal of the site, and to not be too time-consuming as I still have my day-to-day responsibilities to fulfill.
All of that said, a workable solution may be to make use of the Mechanical Turk:
https://www.mturk.com/mturk/welcome
Hmmmm....
Blah.
Just allocate the responsibility to someone, and do revenue-sharing, that way they have a vested interest in accuracy.
Besides, you get someone from there that's on-hold too long, and they might just guess. They still have to look at time expended v. pay received.
Quote: Mission146Blah.
Just allocate the responsibility to someone, and do revenue-sharing, that way they have a vested interest in accuracy.
Besides, you get someone from there that's on-hold too long, and they might just guess. They still have to look at time expended v. pay received.
I've not used it before, but a friend of mine has with good results. Thanks as always for your feedback!
Quote: EvenBobDon't take my word for it, call them. It early afternoon
in Vegas which is where they are. If you say you're a
player, they won't even talk to you. Its like calling a
lawyer and asking for info on his clients. Forget it.
Casinos are very competitive, I can understand why
they want certain things kept secret. You'll have to
have people go into specific casinos for you and
report first hand whats going on, the casinos or their
business clients won't tell you anything.
As it turns out, I did contact one of the leading table game suppliers and they are fully behind the idea and have offered their support! He, too, thought the lack of a "table game finder" was a big hole in the industry and was excited about the idea of seeing the project come to light.
At this stage, I'm going to continue to make inquiries and put some serious time behind the idea to understand any last major hurdles, hopefully few or none!
Quote: Mission146I will assist you at your direction, if you like. When you are ready for specific table information, the first twenty-five are free!
Thanks again for the offer! I should have a better idea with respect to data gathering in the next few months!
Quote: TheBigPaybakThanks again for the offer! I should have a better idea with respect to data gathering in the next few months!
You might want to design some easy method doe end users to submit table games and rules that they are seeing in their local casinos. You will probably want to have some sort of 'approver' function, since you know the spammers will find your form too attractive to leave it alone......
Having hundreds of eyes is certainly easier than doing it all yourself....
Quote: RaleighCrapsYou might want to design some easy method doe end users to submit table games and rules that they are seeing in their local casinos. You will probably want to have some sort of 'approver' function, since you know the spammers will find your form too attractive to leave it alone......
Having hundreds of eyes is certainly easier than doing it all yourself....
You're very correct: given the ability spammers will do their best to "infect" the site- which we will not let happen. Ideally, we'll receive our data from the manufacturer's themselves- at least one is very supportive of this which will make things easier and hopefully others will follow!
Do you think, if you were going to go with the User-Provided information, that you would be interested in working Progressive Slot pays in there in anyway? It would help track positive ER slot pulls, they are rare, but I have seen them two-three times if we assume a base payout of 90%. I was tempted to keep trying when I spotted these, but I lost my session amount each time, and when I lose that, I'm done for the day.
Quote: TheBigPaybakYou're very correct: given the ability spammers will do their best to "infect" the site- which we will not let happen. Ideally, we'll receive our data from the manufacturer's themselves- at least one is very supportive of this which will make things easier and hopefully others will follow!
I am sure you are aware, but getting the accurate data into the database the first time is only a small part of the battle. Keeping it up to date, and accurate, is where all of the time will be spent. And from an end user perspective, the minute I find one or two errors, then the whole site becomes suspect.
It is great the manufacturers and distributors might be willing to come on board, but will they be reliable and tell you not only about new installs, but when tables are reduced or removed from a casino? I bet they won't be quite as reliable with that info, which means you need to have another means for keeping up that info.
Ideally, it would seem like you need to somehow convince each casino's floor manager that it is in their best interest to provide you with a weekly update of their table games. Get the information direct from the horse's mouth. Most of the casino websites are very weak when it comes to precisely describing the table games they have. "20 tables of Blackjack" doesn't exactly mean a whole lot, since we know 20 won't even be open.
You have a great concept, and one that if done right, should generate a fair amount of traffic. If you could generate click through traffic to a casino's website, and especially, to a casino's reservation system, you would really be able to demonstrate to the floor managers why they want to help you.
Quote: Mission146I'd really hate to count on the users for accuracy of information.
Right- this would be a tricky proposition...
Quote: Mission146Do you think, if you were going to go with the User-Provided information, that you would be interested in working Progressive Slot pays in there in anyway? It would help track positive ER slot pulls, they are rare, but I have seen them two-three times if we assume a base payout of 90%. I was tempted to keep trying when I spotted these, but I lost my session amount each time, and when I lose that, I'm done for the day.
It's hard to say what the future will hold, although at least initially we'd be very focused on making the core uses for the site work very well, and see what type of success we have and then take thoughtful steps forward.
Quote: RaleighCrapsI am sure you are aware, but getting the accurate data into the database the first time is only a small part of the battle. Keeping it up to date, and accurate, is where all of the time will be spent. And from an end user perspective, the minute I find one or two errors, then the whole site becomes suspect.
This is so true!
Quote: RaleighCraps
It is great the manufacturers and distributors might be willing to come on board, but will they be reliable and tell you not only about new installs, but when tables are reduced or removed from a casino? I bet they won't be quite as reliable with that info, which means you need to have another means for keeping up that info.
It would be my hope that their records will be accurate and updated on a regular basis. I would like to *think* that they know where their products are, although that may not be a 100% valid assumption. We'll have to see what the net buy-in will be from them and go from there.
Quote: RaleighCrapsIdeally, it would seem like you need to somehow convince each casino's floor manager that it is in their best interest to provide you with a weekly update of their table games. Get the information direct from the horse's mouth. Most of the casino websites are very weak when it comes to precisely describing the table games they have. "20 tables of Blackjack" doesn't exactly mean a whole lot, since we know 20 won't even be open.
If I can't make it simple for people, I know it won't get done, so we'll need to see.
Quote: RaleighCrapsYou have a great concept, and one that if done right, should generate a fair amount of traffic. If you could generate click through traffic to a casino's website, and especially, to a casino's reservation system, you would really be able to demonstrate to the floor managers why they want to help you.
Absolutely! We can provide great stats on a number of levels, and with the right amount of traffic, will be able to show a lot of benefits for both casinos and other providers.
Here's a sneak peak at some of the designs- hopefully they'll be pretty self-explanatory as to their function:
http://www.thebigpayback.com/comps/tbp-grid.jpg
http://www.thebigpayback.com/comps/tbp-detail.jpg
A few notes on the initial designs:
1. The above links are just design pictures, they're not html that you can interact with. Depending on your browser, you may need to click on them to see at proper scale.
2. Initially, the project will take the form of a traditional website- and then maybe an associated "app" will be developed.
3. The designs are probably 80% complete, with the "grid" view the more polished of the above which also better reflects the direction we're taking with the header.
Ultimately, you'll be able to locate casinos by location, game, or your position- such as nearest to your home! What's missing from the above is the "detail" page you'll receive when you click into a result- and of course the "home" page.
Feel free to pass along any comments/criticisms, especially the latter, as that will help us!
Additionally, any game manufacturers/distributors who may be interested in promoting their games in any way, feel free to PM(Private Message) me- this of course would include providing your location lists.
And finally, any casino marketing executives who wish to be part of the beta-test and to provide additional feedback, also feel free to PM me!
Thanks to all!
Quote: TheBigPaybakMy team has been busy working on this project- it's really starting to come together!
Here's a sneak peak at some of the designs- hopefully they'll be pretty self-explanatory as to their function:
http://www.thebigpayback.com/comps/tbp-grid.jpg
http://www.thebigpayback.com/comps/tbp-detail.jpg
WOW! Very impressive.
I'm looking forward to seeing it completed and functional.
Need a beta tester?
The success, or failure, will lie with the content, how complete it is, and how up to date it can be kept.
The filters by location, or slots, or table games will be a very useful feature
Quote: DJTeddyBearWOW! Very impressive.
I'm looking forward to seeing it completed and functional.
Need a beta tester?
Thanks! There's still a lot more work to be done, and hopefully I won't go broke in the process, but I feel it's starting to come together! We should have the "detail" and "home" pages done in the next few weeks and will also be looking to get some type of prototype up and running.
And absolutely, I'd greatly appreciate that, I'll put you down!
Quote: RaleighCrapsAgree with DJ, the layout looks great.
The success, or failure, will lie with the content, how complete it is, and how up to date it can be kept.
Thanks! And I agree, the content portion will be the challenge- we're putting a lot of thought into that- although at the worst, at least we should do well with the locations themselves, and then build from there. Already one major tables-games player has pledged their support, although it of course would be good to have the support of all- maybe one day when people see it up and running and see the possibilities, they will do so!
Quote: rdw4potusI don't know where I was in late August, or how I missed this thread! This is a great idea, and I'd be happy to support it any way I can. It's no secret that I visit a lot of casinos, so if boots-on-the-ground reporting would be beneficial, I'd be game!
Thanks, I appreciate it and will let you know!
My thought is to try and keep it as simple and usable as possible- and to keep the content presented as accurate as possible, too.
I concur that it might be a challenge getting reliable info from casinos OR game vendors.
For example, about 3 years ago, I called ShuffleMaster to ask if RapidCraps was in any casino in A.C. It took about 10 minutes on hold to get an answer (no). Then, after learning that I would demo Poker For Roulette on an iTable at the SHFL focus group, I sent an email to Roger Snow to ask where in Vegas I could see one in operation. His reply came about 3 hours later. I consider that a rather fast / timely response for email.
My point is, I have a feeling that the 10 minutes I was on hold for the answer about RapidCraps was due to a lack of a central list of games and installations. Roger may have had a similar struggle getting my answer about the iTable, but if it was an unqualified email inquiry, would the email have gotten an answer at all?
Bottom line, I don't know how easily you'll be getting data, but you should brace yourself for a struggle.
On the other hand, it appears that some people have been successful in getting info, even if some of it is out of date. http://www.thepokeratlas.com and http://www.allvegaspoker.com seem to be able to get poker room info. Maybe you should contact them to find out their secrets.
Some have made comments about including things such as the hours that particular tables are open and the table limits. To a certain extent, these are functions of player demand and the manager's whims. I wouldn't expect this kind of info. If it were available, I wouldn't trust it. In fact, I would begin to suspect that other info was added as filler and therefore of questionable reliability. On the other hand, if certain games are only available on weekends, that sort of info is probably on a pre-set schedule that doesn't change much.
Someone suggested getting the info from a casino manager on a weekly basis. I would suggest that monthly is sufficient. Since proprietary games are rented on a per month basis, I can't see and changes happening too often. Yeah I realize that monthly doesn't necessarily mean calendar months, but how much do you want to hound the managers for responses?
How out of date can the data be and still be acceptable? I remember when I stayed at the Sahara in 2010, the in-room gambling instruction video included comments about the Fire Bet. There was no Fire Bet on the craps table. When I asked about it, I was told it had been removed over a year prior. You'd think that a video they produce themselves would stay more current....
But, I'd like to repeat that I like the look of those two samples. Can't wait to use it!
Quote: DJTeddyBearI finally had a chance to read this entire thread (I'm not sure how I missed it the first time).
I concur that it might be a challenge getting reliable info from casinos OR game vendors.
For example, about 3 years ago, I called ShuffleMaster to ask if RapidCraps was in any casino in A.C. It took about 10 minutes on hold to get an answer (no). Then, after learning that I would demo Poker For Roulette on an iTable at the SHFL focus group, I sent an email to Roger Snow to ask where in Vegas I could see one in operation. His reply came about 3 hours later. I consider that a rather fast / timely response for email.
My point is, I have a feeling that the 10 minutes I was on hold for the answer about RapidCraps was due to a lack of a central list of games and installations. Roger may have had a similar struggle getting my answer about the iTable, but if it was an unqualified email inquiry, would the email have gotten an answer at all?
Bottom line, I don't know how easily you'll be getting data, but you should brace yourself for a struggle.
My current attitude is that if I can't be fairly confident of the data, then I'll not show the data- and the "games" list will become a "featured games" list and contain those games by companies who want to contribute to the project. While it seems inconceivable that companies don't have current lists of their installations, part of me feels that's the case, at least for some! Frankly if I ran their businesses, I'd solve that problem, although maybe I'm missing something there. Regardless, once people see we're "for real" and see how things can work, I'd like to think they'll see the possibilities and get on board. Heck, at least at one point SHFL used to have a game locator on their site, but not for a while.
Quote: DJTeddyBearOn the other hand, it appears that some people have been successful in getting info, even if some of it is out of date. http://www.thepokeratlas.com and http://www.allvegaspoker.com seem to be able to get poker room info. Maybe you should contact them to find out their secrets.
Some have made comments about including things such as the hours that particular tables are open and the table limits. To a certain extent, these are functions of player demand and the manager's whims. I wouldn't expect this kind of info. If it were available, I wouldn't trust it. In fact, I would begin to suspect that other info was added as filler and therefore of questionable reliability. On the other hand, if certain games are only available on weekends, that sort of info is probably on a pre-set schedule that doesn't change much.
My thought is to build a solid foundation and for really granular information, that's what you go to the casino's website for- which I'll of course provide a link to! And Twitter, and Facebook, etc.
Quote: DJTeddyBearSomeone suggested getting the info from a casino manager on a weekly basis. I would suggest that monthly is sufficient. Since proprietary games are rented on a per month basis, I can't see and changes happening too often. Yeah I realize that monthly doesn't necessarily mean calendar months, but how much do you want to hound the managers for responses?
We won't at all. I'm sure some will take to it, and they'll have administrative control to make their updates. The system will self-maintain a certain level to expunge old updates, for those that end up falling by the wayside.
Quote: DJTeddyBearHow out of date can the data be and still be acceptable? I remember when I stayed at the Sahara in 2010, the in-room gambling instruction video included comments about the Fire Bet. There was no Fire Bet on the craps table. When I asked about it, I was told it had been removed over a year prior. You'd think that a video they produce themselves would stay more current....
I'll be the first one to admit, keeping things "fresh" will be a tough challenge and we're going to take extra care to not overextend ourselves and really keep our focus on the casino locations themselves, and go from there.
Quote: DJTeddyBearBut, I'd like to repeat that I like the look of those two samples. Can't wait to use it!
Believe me, I can't wait to get this into a workable prototype at this point! I appreciate your comments!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/12117-where-can-i-find-high-card-flush/
Hopefully manufacturers will see the benefits of what I'm offering, as I can solve this problem, especially for newer games struggling to gain traction.
Quote: TheBigPaybakMy current attitude is that if I can't be fairly confident of the data, then I'll not show the data- and the "games" list will become a "featured games" list and contain those games by companies who want to contribute to the project. While it seems inconceivable that companies don't have current lists of their installations, part of me feels that's the case, at least for some! Frankly if I ran their businesses, I'd solve that problem, although maybe I'm missing something there. Regardless, once people see we're "for real" and see how things can work, I'd like to think they'll see the possibilities and get on board. Heck, at least at one point SHFL used to have a game locator on their site, but not for a while.
I think this is a winning attitude. Your content has to be up to date.
If I drive 500 miles to play a game that your site says is at that casino, and it turns out the casino pulled it last week, well I am unlucky.
But, if I drive 500 miles to play a game, and it turns out the casino pulled it last year, I will never trust your site for anything other than basics, like mileage, and I can get that from Google just as easily.
I think you have a good strategy.
Start with simple content.
Show the 'promise' of what you can achieve.
Get traffic coming to the site.
At this point, you can start to demonstrate to the casinos WHY they need to, and should want to, work with your site.
Ideally, you get a few casinos to take part, and as soon as their competitor in market casinos get wind that a casino is getting an advantage from your site, you will have them beating your door down.
You are off to a good looking start.
Quote: TheBigPaybakMy thought is to build a solid foundation and for really granular information, that's what you go to the casino's website for- which I'll of course provide a link to! And Twitter, and Facebook, etc.
Most of the casino websites are not even 'accurate'. As an example, try and find a casino site that will tell you what their current craps rules are, or how many craps tables they have, or in some cases, if they even have craps! All of this info seems to be unimportant to the casino webmasters. They keep the room rates up dated and the headliners. That is about it.
