Revel Facing Bankruptcy?

Quote: EvenBob

Just more debt to bury them. Its amazing how casinos
can always find people to throw good money after bad
investments. Its because people think casinos can't fail.

Or perhaps they believe that Revel will have a good shot at making it.

Quote: Bhappy

Or perhaps they believe that Revel will have a good shot at making it.

Based on what? Performance up to now? In a dying market
like AC? Why didn't I think of that..

Quote: EvenBob

Based on what? Performance up to now? In a dying market
like AC? Why didn't I think of that..

Perhaps you did not read the whole article or understood it, but here is what the people who threw money at Revel might have believed

It's so easy to go out and say things without having to worry about facts," DeSanctis responded. "That's just a wonderful thing."
.....................................
DeSanctis said critics are focusing too heavily on those traditional, easily identifiable yardsticks in judging Revel, which he said relies less on gambling winnings than traditional casinos.

"People are having a really hard time understanding our business model," he said. "Because our business model is the way it is, our cost on a daily basis is significantly lower than most folks believe."

Quote: Bhappy

"People are having a really hard time understanding our business model," he said. "Because our business model is the way it is, our cost on a daily basis is significantly lower than most folks believe."

I read that, I read the whole thing. Thats just what I said,
its easy to fool investors with BS because they believe
casinos can't fail. Its the same thing every failing business
man says: Its not my fault I'm failing, its because nobody
but me understands my 'business model'. Guffaw...

Quote: EvenBob

I read that, I read the whole thing. Thats just what I said,
its easy to fool investors with BS because they believe
casinos can't fail. Its the same thing every failing business
man says: Its not my fault I'm failing, its because nobody
but me understands my 'business model'. Guffaw...

"I'm trying to tell you guys, it's simple! Listen, I know I've already borrowed 25 million against not nearly that much in tangible assets, but I've got to meet operating expenses. The main problem here is that we are under-advertised. If we could just get another 25 million, and that would cover our advertising budget for an entire year, it's a guarantee we triple that by the end of 2014, just in profits. The problem is not that many people understand all the features and benefits of our product, but if we can find a way to advertise the rotary phone as fresh, new and exciting, we'll be made for life. People just don't understand out business model, yet, but they will when they're spinning a little wheel to call numbers, and you'll be sorry you weren't on board!"

All you have to do is roll the loans into a few layers of derivatives and get the UAW pension fund to buy some and it's all good. Risk-free lending. Success is your windfall. Failure falls on the taxpayers.

Why are you all guys passionate about Revel failing? Are you all smokers?

Quote: Bhappy

Why are you all guys passionate about Revel failing? Are you all smokers?

As a clean air advocate, I hope they make it as a non-smoking casino.

Quote: Wizard

As a clean air advocate, I hope they make it as a non-smoking casino.

I hope so too. It will take a while for them to develop repeat customers.

It took a while - almost a year for Jumer's in Rock Island, Il to gain traction after Il went smoke free. Currently, they are beating pants off the two closest smoking casinos is IA.

Palace in Billoxi, MS went voluntarily smoke free about 15 months ago. They are still smoke free and their business model is doing fine.

In my opinion, Revel should have made some accommodation to smokers. Palace spent more than a million to build a smoker's lounge that is easily accessible from the casino floor.

Revel also needs more 'economical/affordable' options for room and board.

Whether they will allow smoking or not will depend on the management. If current management (including CEO) stays, it ain't gonna happen. It seems that 'Non-smoking' is one of the core values of the business model. It is unlikely that the core value will change. The rest can be easily implemented, and they have made changes.

I too hope the Revel makes it. The property is gorgeous, and has a lot to recommend it. The non-smoking issue, which I thought would be a major selling point, apparently is killing them. But management isin't about to change that from what I hear. There does also seem to be a less than customer friendly attitude within the hotel and restaurant side of the business. The gaming floor people I've dealt with have been nothing but nice and helpful. But there is an attitude there for sure with some of the other staff. Especially the hotel/spa from what I've heard. They need to get that under control or it's going to be a long winter. That, and not to beat a dead horse, but the general decline of AC may be their biggest problem. One that may be beyond their control.

Some politicians are already calling for an investigation.
Some are pointing out that Meetings and also Food/Beverage income has been climbing.

Still, why borrow 100 million to stay afloat if no one is showing up?

No Smoking? That is really great for many, but its not really much of a "hook".
Ain't nobody gonna trek to Atlantic City for a no smoking casino unless they are already in the mood to trek to Atlantic City for a casino. Revel wants to be the Cream Skimming Property in Atlantic City but Borgatta already is and won't soon be unseated.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Wait a sec... Goldman Sachs???? Weren't they one of the original investors / developers of Revel?

That was Morgan Stanley. They do all look alike.

Quote: vendman1

There does also seem to be a less than customer friendly attitude within the hotel and restaurant side of the business. The gaming floor people I've dealt with have been nothing but nice and helpful. But there is an attitude there for sure with some of the other staff. Especially the hotel/spa from what I've heard. They need to get that under control or it's going to be a long winter.

It was strange to not feel like a valued guest when I called... and it was stranger yet to be told that Borgata was a really nice place. I think we all know that when the customer says, "I might go stay at The Borgata, we have rooms there," that is code for "Do you want my business?" And the proper reply, if you want the business, isn't, "That's a really nice place to stay!" It is, "Let me check with my manager, she/he might be able to accommodate you." Unless you don't give a shit, in which case you say, "The Borgata, that's a really nice place to stay!"

Quote: Mosca

It was strange to not feel like a valued guest when I called... and it was stranger yet to be told that Borgata was a really nice place. I think we all know that when the customer says, "I might go stay at The Borgata, we have rooms there," that is code for "Do you want my business?" And the proper reply, if you want the business, isn't, "That's a really nice place to stay!" It is, "Let me check with my manager, she/he might be able to accommodate you." Unless you don't give a shit, in which case you say, "The Borgata, that's a really nice place to stay!"

Do you know how many gamblers would lie and say things like that?

To me it was a code word for you to understand that unless you have comp. room offered, no dice. People are salivating to get free rooms at Revel, but don't want to play there. They all want free room, free food up front. All free rooms offers from other places is a 'reward' to gamblers for their past play history. Show them your play behavior and you will be rewarded.

People are getting comps including food, and room.

Quote: Wizard

As a clean air advocate, I hope they make it as a non-smoking casino.

And as a gambling man yourself, you don't want to lose to Bob Dancer...

Best of Philly 2012 Casino Hotel

Revel

Cosmopolitan. Intriguing. Elegant. And those are just the ads. Exactly what Atlantic City needed, when it needed it most.

http://www.phillymag.com/philly/best-of/casino-hotel-2012/

Quote: Bhappy

Best of Philly 2012 Casino Hotel

Revel

Cosmopolitan. Intriguing. Elegant. And those are just the ads. Exactly what Atlantic City needed, when it needed it most.

http://www.phillymag.com/philly/best-of/casino-hotel-2012/

You do realize that many of those "Best Of" magazine awards are won simply because they advertise in that magazine. The public "votes" and so sometimes a non-advertiser can get recognition, but my guess is that the physical magazine has at least one full-page ad, if not more.

Quote: Bhappy

Do you know how many gamblers would lie and say things like that?

To me it was a code word for you to understand that unless you have comp. room offered, no dice. People are salivating to get free rooms at Revel, but don't want to play there. They all want free room, free food up front. All free rooms offers from other places is a 'reward' to gamblers for their past play history. Show them your play behavior and you will be rewarded.

People are getting comps including food, and room.

I know where you're coming from. I have 2 room offers (1 for me, 1 for Mrs) from Revel for August, and I verified that with the representative. But the September offers aren't available yet, not until Sept 1st. I wanted a September offer, 2 rooms, and one more room to bring a third pair of players at about my same level of play. My contention is that they are sending me offers, and I want to take them. I feel that my bona fides are in order, and if they wanted the business it was there for the taking, all they had to do was pick it up.

I doubt that Revel is booked to capacity for midweek in the 3rd month of September, and I don't think it will be when that week comes and goes. But it could have been closer.

Quote: Mosca

I know where you're coming from. I have 2 room offers (1 for me, 1 for Mrs) from Revel for August, and I verified that with the representative. But the September offers aren't available yet, not until Sept 1st. I wanted a September offer, 2 rooms, and one more room to bring a third pair of players at about my same level of play. My contention is that they are sending me offers, and I want to take them. I feel that my bona fides are in order, and if they wanted the business it was there for the taking, all they had to do was pick it up.

I doubt that Revel is booked to capacity for midweek in the 3rd month of September, and I don't think it will be when that week comes and goes. But it could have been closer.

Just play, and if legitimate you will get your offers. In case you didn't know, if your initial offer was based on your tier level at other places you won't get other offers unless you 'show' them your tier level play.

Many, specially poker players were abusing the system. So now they have become bit smarter.

Quote: Bhappy

Just play, and if legitimate you will get your offers. In case you didn't know, if your initial offer was based on your tier level at other places you won't get other offers unless you 'show' them your tier level play.

Many, specially poker players were abusing the system. So now they have become bit smarter.

I'm OK with it no matter what, I got my 3 rooms at Borgata for those days, comped and reservations confirmed. I lose nothing. We might drive over to Revel one morning, we might not; we're happy regardless. If they'd have given us rooms, we would have played there exclusively, and we would have dined there exclusively as well. We generally don't leave the place we've chosen to park ourselves. Our traveling companions have never been to Revel, and they might like to see it, so we might go there. But they've also never stayed at Borgata, so we might not leave there.

Quote: vendman1

The non-smoking issue, which I thought would be a major selling point, apparently is killing them.

As I said it would before they opened. How many slot
players in an average casino smoke, 50%? Higher? The
attitude that you can win at slots, and that smoking is
bad for other people and not you, somehow go hand in hand.

They should not only allow smoking, but give away free cigarettes
with so many points gained. You wouldn't be able to find
a seat in the joint.

Quote: EvenBob

As I said it would before they opened. How many slot
players in an average casino smoke, 50%? Higher?
a seat in the joint.

Anecdotal evidence: Most of the slot players. Scientific evidence: ~20%

The Percentage of Gamblers Who Smoke
A Study of Nevada Casinos and other Gaming Venues

Dr. Chris A. Pritsos Principle Investigator
Department of Nutrition/ MS 142
University of Nevada
Reno, NV 89557

Those in the gaming industry have repeatedly claimed that
the percentage is upward of 70%, while those with the health organizations have suggested that it
should be more in line with the national average of smokers. This study was designed to look at
the percentage of gamblers in the State of Nevada who smoke, which as the gaming capital of the
world should be reflective of gaming throughout the U.S. and the world. We looked at casinos
throughout the State of Nevada, from the mega-resorts of Las Vegas to the small local casinos of
rural Nevada. Overall, we observed 17,723 gamblers. The results from the 3 tourist centers of
Nevada we surveyed (Las Vegas, Reno/Sparks and Lake Tahoe) gave very similar results for the
percentage of smokers (21.5, 22.6 and 17 respectively). These percentages of gamblers who
smoke are very similar to the overall percentage of the U.S. population that smokes (20.9%).



https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:5IePFnG4nV0J:www.no-smoke.org/pdf/nevadaeconstudy.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj2MH3kGHSLaXJ7P4U5ZhTce5MraY2ZzSLX4bM6sroEO57Tz8rrc5jEb05S3bMSWMLcJZSlTR1wK19srl8JrMkZLaftqff-5mUYSUFE6uYh_U6jrXdvoogYhjWHMaV9DaHjOoQt&sig=AHIEtbSeyCWc3vZ6mk6KXtim-8VQMqAsmQ

LOL, no way is it 20%. Go into any casino and walk the
slot aisles, does it look like 1 in 5 to you? The casinos
are always trying to downplay how many people smoke
while gambling. I've been at BJ tables where every player
was smoking and never been at one when nobody was.
I'm sticking with 50%.

Quote: EvenBob

LOL, no way is it 20%. Go into any casino and walk the
slot aisles, does it look like 1 in 5 to you? The casinos
are always trying to downplay how many people smoke
while gambling. I've been at BJ tables where every player
was smoking and never been at one when nobody was.
I'm sticking with 50%.

did you read the article? Sure the Sun and Moon go around the Earth day in and day out.

Quote: Bhappy

did you read the article?

Enough of it. I don't believe it. Plus it was for NV,
which get half its business from SoCal, the most anti
smoking state in the country. How about AC, or midwest
casinos. Its 50% for slots players.

Quote: EvenBob

Enough of it. I don't believe it. .

Bob you are my kind of guy. I also like to live in make believe world.

Quote: Bhappy

Bob you are my kind of guy. I also like to live in make believe world.

Whats make believe about not giving us
all the facts? NV does get about 40% of
its players from a state that has a Nazi-
like attitude towards smokers. How about
the rest of the country, where most of us
live? I know damn well there are more
than 20% smokers in the casinos of the
midwest. And PA and NJ.

I just looked it up. Calif is 49th out of
50 for the least % of smokers in the
nation, at 14%. You don't think that skews
NV players % just a bit?

In fact, most states in the west are under
the 20% average. And midwest states,
like OH, IN, KY, TN, WVA, MO, and many
southern states, are way above 20%. Kentucky
is 28%. The study you cited is way too
incomplete and says little about the country's
casinos as a whole.

What time of day did they research NV smoking in casinos? I think that makes a huge impact too. If they were out during the day then they would get a lower number than if they were out at 1am. It also looks like that study is 6 years old, before most states that now have casino smoking bans had them which would make NV a better draw. I know many people from my past home state of SD that come here to gamble because SD banned smoking in Deadwood in 2010. Deadwood gaming revenue plummeted after they did it, just like it has anywhere else because smokers will travel to be able to smoke while they gamble. The federal reserve did a report on this a couple of years ago covering the IL casino smoking ban.

DURAN DURAN just canceled tonight's show at Revel Ovation Hall because their keyboardist isn't feeling well. Not Revel's fault but gee, if it wasn't for bad luck...

Quote: 1BB

DURAN DURAN just canceled tonight's show at Revel Ovation Hall because their keyboardist isn't feeling well. Not Revel's fault but gee, if it wasn't for bad luck...

Are you f***ing serious? They'd better not cancel Stage AE in Pittsburgh tomorrow, or I'm going to be pissed. Tell Nick Rhodes to grow a pair, go with his natural hair color for once, and take some friggin' cold medicine!

Quote: 1BB

DURAN DURAN just canceled tonight's show at Revel Ovation Hall because their keyboardist isn't feeling well. Not Revel's fault but gee, if it wasn't for bad luck...

Yup, I got the text from my host and thought she was joking - exhaustion - Nick Rhodes uses one finger to play keyboards lol

Quote: Pokeraddict

Deadwood gaming revenue plummeted after they did it,

DEADWOOD, SD - The South Dakota Commission on Gaming has released the numbers from January of this year, and they're up nearly 15 percent from last year. In fact, this January's numbers are nearly even with the totals from before the smoking ban went into effect.

Before the smoking ban went into effect, the atmosphere was much different inside Saloon No. 10.

"There was a haze that you would have to fight your way through every Friday and Saturday night. With that being gone, it's just easier to come down and have fun," Saloon No. 10 part-owner Louie Lalonde said.......... "In the long run, it has definitely increased our traffic with people who don't smoke. Believe it or not, when the smoking ban went into effect my numbers went up," Lalonde said.

"It's cleaner. It smells better; your clothes don't stink as bad if you're not a smoker," gambler Kassie Inlow said.

http://www.keloland.com/News/NewsDetail6376.cfm?Id=128170

Deadwood 'casinos' are all in structures that were built
a hundred years ago. Low ceilings, they aren't meant
to handle a lot of smoke and they don't handle it at
all. They had to have a ban just so people could breathe.

^^ This article was from Feb 2012 where numbers were going up against the year after the ban which were awful and put one casino out of business and sent another into foreclosure. The ban went into effect in Nov 2010. The February 2011 this article is comparing Feb 2012 to numbers were down 12.6%. 11 of the 12 months after the smoking ban went into effect were down. It was one of only two years in the history of Deadwood where they had a negative year. The video lottery casinos throughout SD are down 20% from the smoking ban and never recovered. Deadwood has regained some of the lost, thanks in part to a casino opening up with a concert venue that has been successful.

Here are some of the awful numbers in 2011. Blame the recession, but SD had the 2nd lowest unemployment in the country that year and the economy was also just fine in WY and ND. In fact, those three states are among the best economies in the country since the recession.

http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/communities/lead-deadwood/article_1e723a1a-0da8-11e1-adce-001cc4c002e0.html

Quote: EvenBob

Deadwood 'casinos' are all in structures that were built
a hundred years ago. Low ceilings, they aren't meant
to handle a lot of smoke and they don't handle it at
all. They had to have a ban just so people could breathe.

This isn't true at all. Virtually nothing in Deadwood is that old due to many fires. What you see is a total reconstruction to look like it once was. What still stands has huge vaulted ceilings. Their three biggest casinos (and about 6 smaller ones) are stick built away from Historic Main Street for the sole purpose of being a casino.

For Jan-July this year Jumer's (non smkg) in Rock Island, Il made $52 million. Rhythm City (smoking) about 6-7 miles away in IA made $30 Million or JUmer's made about 73% more than Rhythm City. They Both have about 1,000 slot machines.

Quote: Pokeraddict

This isn't true at all. Virtually nothing in Deadwood is that old due to many fires. What you see is a total reconstruction to look like it once was. What still stands has huge vaulted ceilings. Their three biggest casinos (and about 6 smaller ones) are stick built away from Historic Main Street for the sole purpose of being a casino.

I'm talking about the downtown part.
The ceilings aren't tall enough to get rid of a
lot of smoke, especially with no ventilation.

This is downtown Deadwood, many of these buildings are
at least 75 years old. The whole down town was destroyed
by fire in 1879, but that was the last time. Many buildings
are over 100 years old. There was a big fire in 59, but that
wasn't in the city. Deadwood was made a National Landmark
in 1961.

Quote: Pokeraddict

^^ This article was from Feb 2012 where numbers were going up against the year after the ban which were awful and put one casino out of business and sent another into foreclosure. The ban went into effect in Nov 2010.

l

If the smoking ban went in to the effect Nov 2010: ....for the entire 2010 Deadwood Made $106 million. For 2011 it made $101 million. What am I missing here?

For 2012 they are on track to make about $104 million. For Jan-July (7 months) they made $60 million.

Quote: Bhappy

If the smoking ban went in to the effect Nov 2010: ....for the entire 2010 Deadwood Made $106 million. For 2011 it made $101 million. What am I missing here?

For 2012 they are on track to make about $104 million. For Jan-July (7 months) they made $60 million.

That $101 million wiped out three years of gains. That was far from a good year.

Promos count as win in SD which as I understand were 8-10% of the total revenue in 2011 as opposed to 2% historically. If you research the RCJ articles this gets mentioned time and time again. Two of the months went up against smoking ban months. I can find that November was up, can't find Dec 2011. It is probably safe to say it was too. The net loss as I understood including promos was 12% and iirc the main number was -5% setting aside increased promos.

http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/communities/lead-deadwood/article_e29d357c-01df-11e1-9f22-001cc4c03286.html

Quote:

"That includes promotional play dollars, he said.

"We're doing a lot of promotion, but they're just not coming," he said.

Revenue is off more than 7 percent so far this year compared to the same nine-month period last year. If it continues at that pace, total annual revenue will be about $98.5 million, close to Deadwood's 2007 level and eliminating the revenue gains of the past three years"

At that point they were probably down about 15% including added promos going into the month where they would start going up against smoking ban numbers.

The video lottery (video poker in bars and gas stations) was down 18% the first year and did not recover. This is well in line with CO, MT, and IL who banned smoking in gaming establishments.

It has been widely proven that smoking bans hurt casino revenue, especially in the year after.

Federal Reserve study on IL casinos after smoking ban:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/wp/2009/2009-027.pdf

All of the neighboring states were even or up while IL lost 20%+ at border cities.

Montana lost 17% and Colorado and Oregon lost 12% the first year after a ban in casinos:

http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/gambling-in-several-states-still-reeling-from-smoking-bans/article_ee86001a-1b91-11e0-9870-001cc4c002e0.html

I am not saying smoking in casinos is right. I wish it would go away too. I have a bet that a casino in Las Vegas will voluntarily go non smoking by Feb 1, 2013. It looks like I may lose it but if I win it then I will likely win because Rampart or Suncoast does it IMO. Revel's failure may make a Las Vegas casino hesitant if they were thinking about doing it.

I am just stating what seems to be clear, that smoking bans hurt casino revenue. You may find individual cases where the government forced a ban and a casino or town improved, but there is overwhelming evidence that is the exception and not the rule.

As for Bob, that picture you posted is where Main Street is today. That wasn't Main Street when the city was built. The old main street is gone and so are many of the buildings. Main Street ran where the parking deck is now along that cliff one block over.

A lot of those buildings you see are replicas or were buildouts using the existing exterior if it survived. A lot of those windows you see on the second story have nothing behind them. The Franklin has two story ceilings in its first floor where gaming is. Silverado, Lodge, Cadillac Jack's, Mountain Grand, Deadwood Gulch, First Gold, and a few smaller casinos were built solely to be a casino in the past 20 years. Some built into existing structures were heavily modified, such as Mineral Palace. There are a few casinos in the old part that are tiny but they are insignificant. Most of the money comes from the new casinos. The others are novelties like Saloon #10, Miss Kitty's, Midnight Star, Frontier Club, and Hickok's.

I know that entire city inside and out. I used to live there and spent many days over the years exploring it. If you have never been there it is worth a stop. To combat the smoking ban losses the betting limit was raised from $100 to $1000 this year so that would make the city more interesting to people here than it would have been in the past.

The St.Louis report by Pakko you and may others site is a joke. He is active in liberaterian politics, and is employed by St. Louis Fed Reserve. The Fed never sponsored that study. In any case, his report is flawed and non peer reviewed rant. There was another study by Dartmouth professors, and they concluded the IL gamblers Never left - they just did not have money to gamble. Let us not forget in 2008, 2009 there was a deep recession. CO also went down, but in 2011 they came back up again. I was there few months ago for 3 days - and every one (employees+visitors) loves the non-smoking.

Also, let us not forget all the states that went smoke free saw their revenues rebound while Nevada, and specially Las Vegas still has not recovered.

Also, let us not forget that all the casino moguls are fighting like cats and dogs to obtain the casino licenses in states that ban smoking. Smoking+Gambling IS a religion. One can not argue against FAITH.

As far as smokers going to neighboring states to gamble is a big myth. Smokers as a group are lazy. If they can get gambling fix just like nicotine fix easily they ain't gonna go anywhere. Just in two months since the two non smoking casinos opened in Ohio, the casinos in bordering states (MI,PA,WV,IN) saw their revenues decline by more than 10% each.

Quote: Bhappy

The St.Louis report by Pakko you and may others site is a joke. He is active in liberaterian politics, and is employed by St. Louis Fed Reserve. The Fed never sponsored that study. In any case, his report is flawed and non peer reviewed rant. There was another study by Dartmouth professors, and they concluded the IL gamblers Never left - they just did not have money to gamble. Let us not forget in 2008, 2009 there was a deep recession. CO also went down, but in 2011 they came back up again. I was there few months ago for 3 days - and every one (employees+visitors) loves the non-smoking.

Also, let us not forget all the states that went smoke free saw their revenues rebound while Nevada, and specially Las Vegas still has not recovered.

Also, let us not forget that all the casino moguls are fighting like cats and dogs to obtain the casino licenses in states that ban smoking. Smoking+Gambling IS a religion. One can not argue against FAITH.

Colorado rebounded because they raised the bet limit from $5 to $100 in mid 2009. There is no way to compare their past revenue now. The same will happen in South Dakota this year with new bet limits.

Explain why the border casinos in IL got trashed while neighboring states didn't when their casinos sat across the river from each other. Did he make up those numbers? I researched it when it came out, his numbers are right or bad information was transmitted and later corrected.

Las Vegas had its second best year last year visitor count wise and the past two years have been positive. Sure, 2008/2009 were terrible and gave up almost 20% combined in two years. I hardly think 2008 and 2009 were down because of a lack of smoking ban.

Anyway, this is way OT for Revel. Sorry to all.

Quote: Pokeraddict

As for Bob, that picture you posted is where Main Street is today. That wasn't Main Street when the city was built. The old main street is gone and so are many of the buildings..

Of course its gone, it burned down in 1879.
My point is the downtown buildings are not
'new', I've been to Deadwood half a dozen
times. They were built in the 20's and 30's,
and are not designed to handle smoke. The
tourist crap thats there I could care less about.

The problem is that they do an inadequate job of estimating the effects of gaining their target market. (i.e. The Non-Smokers)

I personally believe that the number of people who are adamantly disgusted by cigarette smoke is outnumbered by the number of people who do, in fact, smoke. I have actually seen one survey in which the following question was asked:

"Would you go to a casino if the entire premises were non-smoking?" (or something to that effect)

I am a smoker, and I answered, "Yes," to this question. The answer became, "Yes," as soon as I read the words, "Would you go to a casino."

-The problem is that the only thing that the wording of this question accomplishes is to determine what percent of the market you are going to be discouraging from coming to your casino pursuant to it being anti-smoking. You have to make sure, if you are going to do such a thing, that the percent of the market that you will replace the smokers with is either equal to or greater (in terms of revenue, which makes it even tougher) that the segment of the market that you are essentially discouraging from coming to your property.

A more lengthly, but more appropriate survey question would be:

"If there were a casino in the same general area that was completely smoke-free, would that compel you to go to that casino as opposed to whatever casino(s) you prefer to go to at this time?"

-The specificity of this question is necessary to determine what percentage of the market that you will be pulling from other casinos, which is the obvious goal of being entirely non-smoking, as these casinos will be retaining (in the event that you are a new property) or pulling (in the event that you are an existing property) that segment of the market from your property pursuant to the first question above.

***There would also be questions about frequency of visit, preferred games and preferred denominations of play, obviously.***

-At this point, you would determine the amount of revenue that you are almost definitely losing to the casinos that permit smoking v. the amount of revenue that you are gaining from people exhibiting a STRONG (and only STRONG) preference for a non-smoking casino, because those exhibiting a STRONG preference are the only ones you automatically have in the bag. Assuming you will get people who give wishy-washy preferential answers (a 4 instead of a 5, or something to that effect) is a gamble.

-However, you cannot depend on non-smoking gaming and non-smoking gaming alone to draw customers to your property. You have to beat other casinos in the areas where they can reasonably (and cheaply) be beaten. One of these areas is by having a well-trained staff superb in the field of customer service...which, from most accounts, Revel clearly doesn't. If you had a survey question such as:

"Would you prefer to go to a non-smoking casino in which you are comparably treated like crap, or a smoking casino in which you are dealt with in a prompt, efficient and coutreous way, which would you prefer?"

How do you think they would answer?

Many articles have high-lighted the growing percentage of casinos in the country that are entirely non-smoking, while somehow omitting the blatantly obvious fact that there are many jurisdictions, INCLUDING THE ENTIRE STATE OF OHIO, to name one, in which public smoking (indoors) is banned completely. There are thusly many casinos that are non-smoking only by virtue of having no other choice, but they are still counted in the percentage, as it were.

Hollywood Columbus will be fine and get all the smokers (who can't smoke there) because the nearest casino in which you can smoke is over two hours away. It's when you put a place that allows smoking up against non-smoking local competition that the true test is held.

I know of a restaurant in WV that went entirely non-smoking in Ohio County before restaurants had to do such a thing. That didn't really gain much traction because the food there still sucked.

***In conclusion, I personally think that the number of non-smokers who are adamant about wanting a non-smoking facility falls short of the number of smokers who are adamant about being able to smoke inside, but I could be wrong. However, even if that is not the case, you can't expect to kick the asses of your competition by being a non-smoking establishment alone, you still have to beat them in all of the usual areas, as well.

Interesting point above. How many non smoking casinos are there in a market competing against smoking casinos? Revel, Palace in Biloxi, and where else? The last I saw Palace was up 5% the year after or maybe months after going non smoking. To me, that showed there is a market for it while not demonstrating all casinos should be non smoking.

I am very curious what would happen if a locals casino in LV like Rampart went non smoking.

It looks as if Revel's non-gaming revenue was not even up to that of Taj Majal for the first quarter of operation. We can make some allowances for the fact that all 14 of Revel's restaurants were not open for the entire quarter.

Source	Revel	Taj Mahal	Borgata
Casino	$41,654	$72,032	$152,472
Rooms	$9,804	$14,235	$29,200
Food and Beverage	$4,669	$11,545	$35,870
Other	$9,737	$3,826	$10,631
Total Non gaming	$24,210	$29,606	$75,701
Total Revenue	$65,864	$101,638	$228,173
Less: Promotional Allowances	$10,813	$29,538	$52,758
Net Revenue	$55,051	$72,100	$175,415

But ultimately, it is the humble slot machine that makes the difference in AC. Looking at last month's revenue as dollars per slot machine day, Revel comes in dead last.

$150	Revel
$153	Resorts
$178	Trump Plaza
$195	Golden Nugget
$230	Tropicana
$257	Showboat
$272	Trump Taj Mahal
$280	Ballys
$285	Atlantic Club
$331	Ceasars
$351	Harrah's
$400	Borgata

This metric may be the biggest indicator of the smoking / non smoking divide. Perhaps the table game players enjoy the smoke free environment, but the down and dirty compulsive crowd seems to be speaking loudly.

Quote: Pokeraddict

There are a few casinos in the old part that are tiny but they are insignificant.

And those are the ones I go to when I'm in Deadwood.
They're charming. The city was made a Historical Landmark
50 years ago, which means most of the downtown area
was still intact from at least 50 years before 1961.

Quote: Pokeraddict

Interesting point above. How many non smoking casinos are there in a market competing against smoking casinos? Revel, Palace in Biloxi, and where else? The last I saw Palace was up 5% the year after or maybe months after going non smoking. To me, that showed there is a market for it while not demonstrating all casinos should be non smoking.

I am very curious what would happen if a locals casino in LV like Rampart went non smoking.

First of all, thanks for the compliment.

This post from North American Casino Guide Forums, (Fourth Result on Google for Palace Biloxi Non-Smoking) also demonstrates the point that I was making.

"November 25, 2011 What a great idea. NO SMOKING and guess what it is working. The Palace was busy and clean. I am a Canadian and our casinos, bars and restaurants do not allow smoking anywhere. The Palace has been newly renovated and they have done a beautiful job. They have also kept up with the industry and the casino is loaded with all the newer slot games. Way to Go "Palace Casino - Biloxi" I'll be staying and playing there the next time we go to Biloxi. P.S. Didn't stay or eat at the Palace so no comments on the hotel or food. FJL"

I believe I can copy that here since it comes from a public Forum. After, "No smoking," we see:

1.) Clean
2.) Newly Renovated
3.) Beautiful
4.) Kept up with the Industry
5.) Newer Slot Games

***The point is that if you are a newer casino, or an existing one that decides to go non-smoking, you still have to perform well in other areas when your competition allows smoking, or even if they do not, of course! If your competition does allow it, though, you're effectively saying, (at least to some people), "Take your action somewhere else," because they will.

-If you can perform as well in other areas, but you're non-smoking, then it is simply a numbers game of how much revenue you lose vs. gain based on that one decision. If you perform somewhat better in other areas, then you don't need the numbers game because many people think you are a better place to go. If you perform significantly better in other areas, you may well get smokers who would otherwise prefer to be at a smoking casino, but your establishment is just TOO GOOD to pass up.

-If your property performs worse, or has worse Customer Service, well, as we can see by the Revel's revenue...

Quote: Mission146

It's when you put a place that allows smoking up against non-smoking local competition that the true test is held.

.

For Jan-July this year Jumer's (non smkg) in Rock Island, Il made $52 million. Rhythm City (smoking) about 6-7 miles away in IA made $30 Million or JUmer's made about 73% more than Rhythm City. They Both have about 1,000 slot machines.

Palace casino in Billioxi is doing great after they went voluntarily non-smoking about 15 months ago, and they have their own past and present data.

does that answer your question?

Quote: Bhappy

For Jan-July this year Jumer's (non smkg) in Rock Island, Il made $52 million. Rhythm City (smoking) about 6-7 miles away in IA made $30 Million or JUmer's made about 73% more than Rhythm City. They Both have about 1,000 slot machines.

Have you ever been to both casinos? I am moving to the area, and I can honestly say that Jumer's is as nice of a casino as you'll find in Illinois right now. This is in STARK contrast to the old boat that was on the water. Furthermore, Jumer's offers a nice hotel (from what I've been told), has more amenities DEFINITELY than Rhythm City and probably Isle of Capri and is not on the water. I'm not sure about the comp situation now, but I know it used to be easier to get free stuff from Jumer's on the old boat. The offers typically were more generous and better.

You could argue the smokers don't want to go to Jumers, but unfortunately you would be comparing apples to oranges. I think the non-smoking effect can often be overstated, but I agree that 20% for the Midwest seems awfully low.