Was the Bin Laden capture faked? (FSZ)
Hell, just last week half of the US thought Obama was from someplace other, now we will all believe what he says. Perhaps we all want the news so bad we will take it at face value.
Quote: avargovBut we had the body, we threw it overboard, and we couldn't take a couple of snapshots?
I shouldn't even bother responding, but we probably did take lots of pictures. However, it wouldn't be dignified to release them to the public. It would come off as grotesque, perverse, and undignified. Go ahead and believe the whole thing was a conspiracy to boost morale; I don't really care. I do think that such fringe opinions belong in the Free Speech Zone, and ask that you continue with this topic there.
Quote: WizardI shouldn't even bother responding, but we probably did take lots of pictures. However, it wouldn't be dignified to release them to the public. It would come off as grotesque, perverse, and undignified. Go ahead and believe the whole thing was a conspiracy to boost morale; I don't really care.
That isn't really what I am saying. You, and many others here, require proof on most claims. And yet, on this particular issue, we aren't requiring any at all. We are just taking what they say at face value.
And about the DNA, when did we ever have Bin Laden in custody to get a sample to compare this one to?
And just to answer any further questions, I do not generally take our government at it's word. I worked for them too, with a secret clearence.
Quote: avargovThat isn't really what I am saying. You, and many others here, require proof on most claims. And yet, on this particular issue, we aren't requiring any at all. We are just taking what they say at face value.
There is such a thing as trust.
But if Obama were to publish a book on his system to kill bin Laden, I wouldn't buy it without evidence. Happy?
All fringe political opinions should be put in the Free Speech Zone to begin with.
Quote: avargovThat isn't really what I am saying. You, and many others here, require proof on most claims. And yet, on this particular issue, we aren't requiring any at all. We are just taking what they say at face value.
And about the DNA, when did we ever have Bin Laden in custody to get a sample to compare this one to?
And just to answer any further questions, I do not generally take our government at it's word. I worked for them too, with a secret clearence.
About the DNA: I think they did a familial test. The body is a sibling match to OBL's sister, and his other siblings are all accounted for, so the body is OBL.
How long before some friend of Bin Laden comes out and says he's still alive or posts a video of him holding today's newspaper? Anything can be faked. It's left up to us what to believe. Right now we all overwhelmingly want to believe the coward is dead.
Quote: avargovThat isn't really what I am saying. You, and many others here, require proof on most claims. And yet, on this particular issue, we aren't requiring any at all. We are just taking what they say at face value.
And about the DNA, when did we ever have Bin Laden in custody to get a sample to compare this one to?
And just to answer any further questions, I do not generally take our government at it's word. I worked for them too, with a secret clearence.
This is a very good point. Somewhere in here there's a thread that has atheists saying up and down that they will not believe in there being a God unless they were shown actual proof. Now all of a sudden the Devil-on-Earth is said to have been killed and drowned into the sea, and it is somehow accepted as fact without any proof, in fact, we're told this tale by one of the most prolific thin-skinned liars in modern political history.
Support please.
Quote: Virgiwe're told this tale by one of the most prolific thin-skinned liars in modern political history.
Oh, come on, Fox News is not that bad, even if they did report last night that Obama was dead.
The burial at sea thing seems to be holding up a lot of people's belief in how genuine the take-down was.
My instincts tell me though that by stating he was buried at sea, the U.S. government can essentially do whatever they want to with the body: bury it at sea, traditional burial, keep it, autopsy it, etc. By stating there is no body left, they may (at least in theory) free themselves from the scrutiny of not promptly burying it or having to account for where the body is.
By doing it this way, they can theoretically do whatever they want, so I think it makes sense.
Quote: dlevinelawBy doing it this way, they can theoretically do whatever they want, so I think it makes sense.
The key, of course, being "whatever they want". As in from the get-go.
It wouldn't surprise probably a majority of people in this country if Obama lied about this just as he's lied about all those charasmatic things he'd do as president during his "campaign of lies". He's really a pathological liar, and it shows in the way he says one thing into the camera via his precious teleprompters, then piles on the bullshit off them.
Quote: dlevinelawTrying to look at it logically:
The burial at sea thing seems to be holding up a lot of people's belief in how genuine the take-down was.
Sure. The logical thing would have been to chop up the body and feed it to a bunch of pigs. but that might constitute animal abuse, and so...
What else are you going to do? Give the body to the family and they'll bury it somewhere. That creates a shrine where his deranged followers can rally, if they don't outright loot the grave and scatter "relics" of bin laden all over the world. So you dispose of the body somehow. Throwing it to the sea is one way. They might have also cremated the body and thrown the ashes into the sea. But then you'd find enterprising lunatics selling any kind of ash as bin Laden "relics," too.
I have to think that the story being reported is at least mostly true. This is not the opportune time for The Big O to get the bump this'll bring, and if OBL is still alive and able to embarrass our government he now has the mother of all openings to do so.
Quote: kpI think Bin Laden was seen sneaking around outside the gates at Graceland last night. I have no proof.
I thought I saw him at my meeting of the Flat Earth Society yesterday. I'm a member because I don't trust anything the government says.
Quote: WizardI thought I saw him at my meeting of the Flat Earth Society yesterday. I'm a member because I don't trust anything the government says.
I hear he's already scheduled to do the next season of Dancing with the Stars.
Quote: kpI think Bin Laden was seen sneaking around outside the gates at Graceland last night. I have no proof.
This was just confirmed on CNN by quest reporter Marilyn Monroe !
And Mike, the flat earth comment was way beneath you, I would have expected better from a man like you.
And Mike, the flat earth comment was way beneath you, I would have expected better from a man like you.
Quote: rdw4potusI think the burial at sea is supposed to be a compromise between mutilation and familial return. We want to cut OBL's face into pieces, but that offends the religion of his (relatively innocent) family. They want the body back, but that is unacceptable to the U.S. Government. So the solution is to dispose of the body, intact, in a neutral location.
My personal feeling is in this situation the less said the better.
Federal law in the USA declares that covert assassination attempts are illegal. Not even the president can order covert killings. But they are no doubt telling the truth that he resisted arrest. Who thinks that he didn't go for his gun? But I have no doubt that the military has the technology to capture the man alive with no danger to the soldiers involved. This was not a casual police operation, but a full scale assault of the US military. My assumption is that their marching orders were to wait for resistance and then kill him.
I assume there is video tape somewhere showing details, but it should be a state secret. I think president Obama has the right to destroy it in the interest of national safety after viewing it.
The smartest thing is to say "We found him, he resisted, we killed him, and we buried him at sea". Then you have to do your best to prepare for the backlash. Maybe a decade or two from now the men who went on the mission can be honored. Perhaps only on their deathbed or not even then since their families can always be targeted.
Why do we need to know who got paid and how much? I also assume that someone is living in relative luxury far from Pakistan. Who cares?
Now if he's secretly captured and has been squirreled away -- and that has top secret classification -- I could actually see a point to that. Though eventually, that would have to be explained why they thought it was important to do it.
Quote: avargovThis has gotten completely out of hand. Anyone who has read any of my posts from before today would never think me to have fringe political views. And I still don't. And I have never stated I believe nothing the government claims. However, in this age of immediate media coverage, I find it hard to believe they haven't released any proof. I seem to recall hearing that 2 H-53 choppers went to the compound, but the Pakistanis didn't pick them up. It all just seems a bit to convienent to me. And the timing seems a bit odd. I am just asking for proof from my government, not too much to ask on an issue so big in the psyche of the population. If you guys want to ostrisize(sp?) me for that, so be it, that is your choice. But let me restate: I am as happy as anyone else that he is dead.
And Mike, the flat earth comment was way beneath you, I would have expected better from a man like you.
But isn't he saying things like that to deflect away from the real issue of why atheists say they require proof for a belief in the existence of something that others have said they believe in, while on the other hand those same people have no problem believing in something others say is true but they have yet to see proof of?
Double-standards: The standard of the Obama Administration.
Quote: rxwineAlso, reason 2, if bin Laden could make an appearence in a couple weeks citing all current news to prove he's alive, why on Earth would they want to be put in that position.
That's exactly why this administration, led by Obama, is such an all or nothing proposition. The end goal is so all-important to them that they will do and risk anything to get there. Remember Obamacare? Remember all those fabulous promises he told us during his campaign? Remember how he put it all on the line then ended up looking stupid with the Cambridge cop affair?
Quote: avargovI am just asking for proof from my government
What proof would you like to see and what would be generally acceptable as something not faked?
Quote: avargovAnd Mike, the flat earth comment was way beneath you, I would have expected better from a man like you.
No insult was intended. I was trying to say that at some point skepticism can go too far, as in the case of the Flat Earth Society. In this case, I find it much more plausible that the Bin Laden killing went down as reported than the whole thing being a fraud. You may choose to doubt it. Normally I admire skepticism, but like anything, it can be taken too far.
Quote: kpWhat proof would you like to see and what would be generally acceptable as something not faked?
Exactly! If this whole thing were a fraud they could have easily faked videos and pictures of the event as well. Sometimes you just have to go with Occom's Razor and accept the explanation that makes the most sense.
Quote: VirgiBut isn't he saying things like that to deflect away from the real issue of why atheists say they require proof for a belief in the existence of something that others have said they believe in, while on the other hand those same people have no problem believing in something others say is true but they have yet to see proof of?
Double-standards: The standard of the Obama Administration.
You miss a very important point, though you stated it yourself. There's a difference between believing something because others believe it, and believing something that others state is a fact. Especial if the believer views the fact giver as credible. You may indeed not find the government as credible, while you do find others of a faith credible. So be it.
I thought the real issue her is whether we should believe that Osama Bin Laden has been shot and killed by Navy Seals without further evidence than the government saying so. I'd expect about as much evidence in this respect if it had been Bush or Obama in the White House when it happened. I didn't see much evidence given when his second in command was killed, or when they bombed several of the training camps, I didn't see much evidence of weapons of Mass Destruction, I didn't see any evidence of a link between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorism atrocity, but I did see evidence clearly presented about a link between Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Afghanistan.
Given that the it's entirely possible a surgical strike by a team of trained soldiers could find and kill Bin Laden hardly flickers on my disbelief meter, I'll take that claim, notwithstanding further evidence to the contrary. It hardly matters to be if he's dead, alive or actually a computer generated graphic used to scare me into giving up liberties at airports. I don't think his death will change Al Qaeda's war on the west any one bit.
I can understand other the skepticism and request for further information of evidence. I suspect you'll get some, but not in the next little while... give it a few years and there'll be documentary special.
The reason is bound up within Islamic practice and tradition. And that practice calls for the body of the deceased to be buried within 24 hours, according to a U.S. official, who spoke on Monday on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive national security matters.
Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/05/02/why-was-bin-laden-buried-at-sea-so-quickly/#ixzz1LDlQxpO2
So we're going to honor this guy by strictly following his religious requirements? Have you ever heard such bullshit in your life?
Quote: WizardNo insult was intended. I was trying to say that at some point skepticism can go too far, as in the case of the Flat Earth Society. In this case, I find it much more plausible that the Bin Laden killing went down as reported than the whole thing being a fraud. You may choose to doubt it. Normally I admire skepticism, but like anything, it can be taken too far.
No offence was taken on your comment Wiz. And I certainly understand your position. I am just bringing up some points that are being discussed in a press conference right now. Of course, my questions may well be answered in a few days. I do have trouble with the way they are being answered now, and I hope when it all comes out, it is on the up and up.
Quote: kpWhat proof would you like to see and what would be generally acceptable as something not faked?
See, part of the proof is in German, so they'd have to translate it for you. And you have to go fly in to see it--they can't just post it on their website.
It's complicated.
Quote: Virgi
So we're going to honor this guy by strictly following his religious requirements? Have you ever heard such bullshit in your life?
Not so much honor him, but his family and the other members of his Faith. We're already fearing a backlash after OBL's death, it does seem kind of reasonable to limit it by respecting the body.
Quote: kpWhat proof would you like to see and what would be generally acceptable as something not faked?
I personally would be OK with a picture of a guy with a bullet hole through his left eye. With the pics I have seen of our own wounded troops, I don't thnk it would be too distasteful.
I am not so out there that I would dismiss anything put in front of me, however, being given no tangible proof makes me pause.
Quote: FarFromVegasSee, part of the proof is in German, so they'd have to translate it for you. And you have to go fly in to see it--they can't just post it on their website.
It's complicated.
I hear also Obama is demanding a $7 trillion bet be placed, with the money to be deposited in advance to his campaign fund (just to hold it, mind you).
Quote: rxwine...you know, if they show the body burning on a pile of Qurans.
Open air cremations is a Hindu ritual.
:)
Quote: rdw4potusNot so much honor him, but his family and the other members of his Faith. We're already fearing a backlash after OBL's death, it does seem kind of reasonable to limit it by respecting the body.
If all the Muslim reporting the past 10 years is correct, OBL was a aberration to the Islamic faith and they are reiterating that today. A backlash would be expected from the extremist world after the killing of their leader anyway. We also just killed his son and 3 grandchildren. Who cares about his family? To claim a respect of the body of such a killer is nonsensical.
Quote: VirgiIf all the Muslim reporting the past 10 years is correct, OBL was a aberration to the Islamic faith and they are reiterating that today. A backlash would be expected from the extremist world after the killing of their leader anyway. We also just killed his son and 3 grandchildren. Who cares about his family? To claim a respect of the body of such a killer is nonsensical.
When was this? Or have you gotten him mixed up with Ghaddafi?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/05/02/osama-bin-laden-raid-pakistan.html?ref=rss
Quote: FarFromVegasQuote: VirgiIf all the Muslim reporting the past 10 years is correct, OBL was a aberration to the Islamic faith and they are reiterating that today. A backlash would be expected from the extremist world after the killing of their leader anyway. We also just killed his son and 3 grandchildren. Who cares about his family? To claim a respect of the body of such a killer is nonsensical.
When was this? Or have you gotten him mixed up with Ghaddafi?
You're right I did. But they either captured or killed his son, and they have his 2 wives and more kids in custody. I'd kill each one if I were in charge.
Quote: gofaster87I'm thinking if Bin Laden did really get killed we should expect to some retaliation from a terrorist cell. If not, that may because for doubt. Ill have to get a hold of some buddies that are still in the Corp(top secret clearance) and see what they have to say.
That hardly passes muster, as what about failed attempts? Or any terrorist event may happen anyways and may or may not be caused by the killing of Bin Laden? The action or otherwise of a terrorist cell isn't direct evidence of his death.
I do agree, I expect something to kick off from this though.
If Al Queda would officially acknowledge that he is dead, I would take that instead.
I think what really makes me ask questions is how quickly government spokespeople were to credit information from "detainees" at Gitmo to this operation, as if to justify the entire Gitmo detention.
Do others feel a noticable lightening on your shoulders? It is strange, but the death of one homicidal madman can make the world a better place. I mourn the death of the woman used as a, "human shield" though. Unfortunate, but necessary, collateral damage.
And now we even have Cindy Sheehan inputting doubts:
“I am sorry, but if you believe the newest death of OBL, you're stupid,” wrote Cindy Sheehan on Facebook. “Just think to yourself—they paraded Saddam's dead sons around to prove they were dead—why do you suppose they hastily buried this version of OBL at sea?”
It just seems this president has no clue on how to talk to the American public. All he cares about is his image to a worldwide audience.
Quote: WizardI shouldn't even bother responding, but we probably did take lots of pictures. However, it wouldn't be dignified to release them to the public. It would come off as grotesque, perverse, and undignified. Go ahead and believe the whole thing was a conspiracy to boost morale; I don't really care. I do think that such fringe opinions belong in the Free Speech Zone, and ask that you continue with this topic there.
Not commenting on it being fake as logic tells me that no POTUS would take a chance like this as if Bin Ladden showed up alive later he would look so foolish the very security of the country could be in danger.
That being said, I see no problem releasing a picture. Didn't we publish pictures of Mussolini's hanging body in newspapers across the country? And that is just one I can think of right now. Simply from a historical prespective I think it is a necessary thing to do.
Quote: WizardI shouldn't even bother responding, but we probably did take lots of pictures. However, it wouldn't be dignified to release them to the public. It would come off as grotesque, perverse, and undignified. Go ahead and believe the whole thing was a conspiracy to boost morale; I don't really care. I do think that such fringe opinions belong in the Free Speech Zone, and ask that you continue with this topic there.
I guess even our own government couldn't resist releasing some photos.
It's a shame, they should have just left it alone.
